Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    After the honeymoon, it is a commitment to work hard for each other's
    growth.  Before and during the honeymoon it is a form of neurosis.
    
    Marty

    
    
    re: .0
    
    
    That was wonderful, thanks for sharing it.
    
    What is love??  I think you may find as many answers are their are
    people who love.  We all have our own measurements as to what it
    means to love someone or be "in love" and what we expect of that.
    
    
    Donna

    I may sound like a spoilsport, but the text in .0 does nothing for
    the problem of attempting to define love.  All it does is dance around
    the subject.  If you know what love is, you can find resonant phrases
    there, but if you don't, it is meaningless.
    
    I don't think you CAN define love.  It's like a black hole in space -
    you can skirt around it, be attracted by it, but not until you're IN
    it do you have ANY notion what it is all about.  (And even THEN you
    may not.)  All I can say is that love is truly wonderful and is
    different each time you encounter it.
    
    					Steve

    As has already did said, I think that 'LOVE' is in itself undefinable.
    Each of us has our own idea of what love is, and our own reality
    of what it is and is not. Is what love is really important, or is
    the fact that IT IS, enough of a definition. In other words, would 
    defining it make it anymore precious or wonderful or less painful
    when we realize that it is lost, or would that time have been better
    spent enjoying it, living it, and sharing it.  
    To me, For me, to TRULY love and be loved is to be alive with life.

    re: .4
    
    No, you are not a spoilsport.  You are right that the base note
    does nothing to *define* love, as it does not have a difinitive
    definition (how's *that* for grammer!!! ;-)  It is not intended
    to define love.  Rather, it is intended to provide food for thought
    for those of us who have contemplated love; its growth; its truth
    and its importance.  It may also help some of us understand some
    of what we are going through when our own personal concept of love
    seems incomplete or wrong.  I am going through just such a thing,
    and this work has helped me in my struggle to try to understand
    why God would bless me with such a wonderfull, delightfull and painfull
    gift as the ability to love.
    
    Several topics in this, and other conferences, have commented on
    the 'health' aspects of love, inevitably refering to AIDS and other
    such problems.  These things, to me, are the 'un-healthy' aspects
    of love.  This poem (.0) and this topic should deal with the true
    'health' aspects of love, as I feel that love is a basic need, no
    less important than the air I breath or the food I eat.
    
    I don't pretend to know what love is, even when I am experiancing
    it (Try defining 'blue' to a blind man.  Him holding a blue ball
    will not help you in defining it.  Same sort of thing.)
    
    Part of the reason for this topic is to intice fellow noters to
    *really* contemplate 'what is love', to *them*.  How it could/should
    be expressed; what one sets as expectation of love; why one feels
    the need for love (both give and receive).  The pain of love; the
    joy of love; the loss and emergence of love.
    
    I love my daughter and son.  I love my wife; I love my life long
    friend Jim Meyer.  I love my siblings and my parents; I have come
    to love many of you, having shared in a part of your life within
    the notes files.
    
    Each of these 'loves' is *true* love, yet each is quiet different
    from the other, what a *marvalous* gift!!  Yet how quickly that
    love can turn to hate and pain!
    
    Notice, also (at least my personal experiance) how fast 'indifference'
    can turn to love, but love can *never*, truly, turn into indifference.
    Love can go from one emotional state to another, but never to the
    absents of emotion.
    
    So, "What Is Love"?  On one level I would say that it is the lack
    of indifference.  Even 'hate' is a different expression of love,
    in some cases (come on, admit it... ;-)
    
    I have more to say, but I will hold it for a while as I contemplate
    how to put it into words.  Please continue responding as this is
    such a potent topic.  I feel many can benifit from reading *and*
    writing about this subject in this way.
    
    jim
    

    Love...I am not sure how I would define it...
    
    I love my husband of 20+ years
    
    and I love my children
    
    and my parents...
    
    and my sisters
    
    and my husband's brothers and my sister in law 
    
    and my sisters husbands
    
    and I love some special friends of both sexes

    and I love my pets
    
    and over all of that I love God
    
    and it seems to me that each of these are different...

    how does the same word apply to all of those relationships

    
    Bonnie

    
    
    	Love is love.  Oil is Oil. There are different types of both
    	but both do, basically, the same thing. All types of oil
    	lubricate. All types of love involve some type of caring and
    	happieness. The thing is is that you can define oil but
    	you can't truly define love.. There are just so many forms
    	of love and all involve different levels and combinations
    	of feelings..
    
    	Love is love..
    
    							mike

    What a fasinating subject.  One that I thought I knew.  Here's a
    definition that works for me.  It comes from M. Scott Peck's book
    'The Road Less Traveled' A new psyuchology of Love, Traditional
    Values and Spiritual Growth.  I recommend it.  It's been on the
    best-seller list for quite some time.                 
    '...Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional.  It implies
    commitment and the exercise of wisdom.  It is not a feeling by which
    we are overwhelmed'...(romantic love).  'It is a committed, thoughtful
    decision.'

    the ability to accept without exception.......    
                                                   

    
    	Well...I'll take a shot at it.
    
    Love is a verb, like "run", it implies action or a kind of flowing
    of energy (for lack of a better word). Love can be one sided or
    mutual, but the flow aspect is still there. Love is a giving thing,
    the "gift" is embodied in the "flow". But, what is the gift? The
    gift is all that you are; the good, the bad, ugly and beautiful.
    What are you? Those who do not know cannot love. Those who have
    an idea are working on it, all the time, making this gift_of_what
    bigger and better, refining it. Those who are sure are proceeding
    to give it all away. Doesnt matter who does the "getting" in the 
    reciprocal realtion, as a matter of fact, it should be *everyone*.
    
    Know yourself, by becoming aware of all that you're good at, good
    in, good with and have a feel for. Make these, your own personal
    qualities, outstanding in yourself. Then send them out, in all
    directions, to as many others as you can. This is love and loving.
    You simply wont have *time* to be lonely! When you see this in another,
    it's beauty is readily apparent and nearly irresistably attractive.
    
    	Joe Jas 

Each Love is different, like a snowflake...

Love is Percieved differently by Each person, like the blind men and the
elephant...

Love is like a rainbow, filled with many things...

Love is beyond humans to understand in it's entirity, like God from Whom
it comes...

This is what makes Love so hard, but a pearl of great price...

Jim.

        When I posted the attached note originally, I apollogized to
        everyone who had seen it before.Well, I'm doing it again. Sorry,
        but it still contains the best answer I've come up with to
        question of what is love.
        
        JimB. 

================================================================================
Note 91.14                Intimate - a human_relation?                  14 of 37
DSSDEV::BURROWS "Jim Burrows"                        58 lines  10-OCT-1986 17:28
                              -< What is 'Love'? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Some of you will have seen the following in a couple of places.
        Sorry to repeat myself (but I'll do it anyway). My sister asked
        me to read something at her wedding. I couldn't find anything
        that really said what I wanted to say, so I wrote and then read
        the following. It addresses the question of "what is 'Love'
        asked in this topic. It also discusses related topics.
        
        
             To My Sister: On Marriage, Love, Trust, & Commitment
                                by Jim Burrows
            Read at the wedding of Katey Burrows and Peter Kintzer,
                                2 August 1986.
     
    I think that there are three important ingredients to a good marriage,
    and that one of major risks in marriage is the misunderstanding of these
    ingredients. 
                        
    First there is love. Love is not something that happens to us. It isn't
    a state, something we fall into and out of, or something that we feel.
    That's passion, infatuation, desire, or lust. Each of these can
    contribute to a good or pleasant marriage, but they are no substitute
    for love. 
                        
    Love is an action. It's something we do. It is valuing, considering and
    caring for someone as much as you value, consider and care for yourself.
    It is the great commandment in the realm of relationships among men.
    It's hard work, and it is at the core of every good relationship,
    especially a marriage. 
                        
    The second important contributor is trust. Recently I've heard several
    people express the opinion that a trust once broken can never be
    repaired. That is a tremendously dangerous notion. Once you've decided
    that you've doomed yourself. We humans are all fallible. Every trust
    eventually will be, if not broken, at least bent or abused. If we allow
    that inevitable failure to destroy the trust, we can never win. 
                        
    Trust is like faith. We trust not because it is rational, or because
    there is evidence. We don't trust only the proven or the perfect, but
    the unproven and the known imperfect. What we need to do is not to trust
    our loved ones to never fail us, but rather trust that even though they
    may fail us, they still care; that even though they may fail, they are
    trying. Trust is inherently risky and in a sense irrational. 
                        
    The last factor is commitment. Often we hear marriage spoken of as a
    contract, an agreement, a 50/50 proposition. In order to succeed, a
    marriage must be much more than that. If two of us each merely "do our
    share", "carry our half of the burden", statistically � of the time
    we'll both be doing it. Half the time one or the other of us will be
    doing it, and � of the time no-one will be doing it. 
                        
    The way to make a marriage work is to first trust your spouse to do
    their part, and then to do almost all of it yourself. If you both are
    giving 99%, then the marriage will only be unsupported one time in
    10,000. In 50 years of marriage, that would be less than 2 days. 
                        
    [To the bride and groom, directly:] So, on this day and for the rest of
    your lives, take with you love, trust and commitment, and strive each
    day to understand them and each other better. 

    Jim-
    
    Very well stated!  After working at marriage for 23 years, I think
    you have captured the essense of real love vs emotional love.
    
    Marty

    Somewhere is my copy of Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet"...the chapter
    on Love is very apt...I will try to find it tonight and type it
    in.
    
    more later
    
    -Jody
    

    I view *love* as a whole pie.  Analogy:  Romantic love becomes "focal"
    encompassing the majority of the *whole* whereas love for self, work, 
    children, parents, friends are smaller portions for they are what they 
    are.  Steady and stable and unchanging.  In time, "True love" for your 
    SO is "romantic love" which has stabled becoming less encompassing of the
    pie, allowing room for the other *loves* to fill the whole.  If
    a piece were to be removed, hopefully, the other loves would fill
    the void, if not, a new love of sorts should replace it (if you
    can find it).
    
    I know for me, I must have *balance*.  And emotional fulfillment
    is the basis for being.........................
    
    Ciao!
                                           
                                           
                                           

                                                    
    Some really nice notes.
    
    For me....
    
    I always considered love unconditional devotion.

    re: -1
    
    I would place 'unconditional' love in a separate catagory from 'love'
    as I do not beleive that there is any such thing as unconditional
    love from any source other than God.  This would hold true for
    unconditional devotion too.
    
    Think of the word 'unconditional', it means "without condition".
     I do not beleive that is possible within the confines of humanity.
    
    Would you still be devoted to your spouse if (s)he divorced you?
     If not then your devotion was not 'unconditional'.  Would you still
    love a loved one if that person committed repeated atrocities to
    you or your children?  If not, then your love was not 'unconditional'.
    
    I realize that these are EXTREAM cases, but 'unconditional' is
    'unconditional', not 'unconditional except when...'.
    jim
    

    
    RE: .18	I see your points. But, under reasonable terms, for
    		me, it is unconditional, within the realm of my
    		humanity. 

	re: .19 
    
    	> I see your points. But, under reasonable terms, for
    	> me, it is unconditional, within the realm of my
    	> humanity. 
        
    Pardon the digression, as I do not want this to turn into a soapbox,
    but...  
        
    *I* could accept a rewritten version of the above statement to look
    like this:
        
    	"But, under certain conditions, for
    	me, it is unconditional, within the realm of my
    	humanity."
    
    Understand, I am not trying to put words in your mouth.  It is *MY*
    opinion that these two version say essentially the same thing and
    it is obvious that the second (my) rendering is a contradiction
    in terms.
    
    Anywho, sorry for the digression.  On with the love!!!
    jim
    

    	

        I'm willing to stipulate that as a finite and fallible man I  am
        not capable of inifinite or perfect love or anything else
        infinite and perfect. Having granted those "conditions", I will
        claim that my love of my wife, my children, my parents, my
        siblings and God is all unconditional. My liking of them is not,
        but my love for them is.
        
        It is always possible that those whom I love unconditionally
        could do something terrible in the extreme, something so horrid
        I couldn't live with them or bring myself to like them. In fact,
        since they are human, they can be expected to do things that I
        don't like, to let me down, and to show all of the failings of
        humanity. But despite that, I put no conditions on my love of
        them. If they leave me, if they become unlikable, that doesn't
        mean that I have to stop loving them.
        
        Mothers can love their children even if they turn into the worst
        criminals the world has ever known. They needn't approve of what
        their children have done or become. None the less, they can
        still love them. 
        
        JimB.

    re: .21
    
    Bingo!  That is what I wanted to hear someone say.  I am going through
    just such a situation.  I would rather not go into detail at this
    time, but I needed someone else to say just those words, without
    me saying them and having people agree or disagree.
    
    Thank you.
    jim
    

    
    
    		I once read something that defined love by comparing
    	it to infatuation. It went something like this...
    
    
    	Infatuation is one set of glands calling to another. Love is
    friendship that has caught fire. It takes root and grows - one day
    at a time.
    	Infatuation is marked by a feeling of insecurity. You are excited
    and eager, but not genuinely happy. There are nagging questions,
    little bits and pieces about your beloved that you would just as
    soon not examine too closely. It might spoil the dream.
    	Love is quiet understanding and mature acceptance of imperfection.
    It is real. It gives you strength and grows beyond you - to bolster
    your beloved. You are warmed by her presence even when she is away.
    Miles do not seperate you. You want her near. But near or far, you
    know she is yours and you can wait.
    	Infatuation says, "We must get married right away. I can't risk
    losing her."
    	Love says,"Be patient. Don't panic. She is yours. Plan your
    future with confidence."
    	Infatuation has an element of sexual excitement. If you are
    honest, you will admit it is difficult to be in one another's company
    unless you are sure it will end in intamacy. Love is the maturation
    of friendship. You must be friends before you can be lovers.
    	Infatuation lacks confidence. When she's away, you wonder if
    she is cheating. Sometimes you even check.
    	Love means trust. You are calm, secure and unthreatened. She
    feels that trust and it makes her even more trustworthy.
    	Love is an upper. It makes you look up. It makes you think up.
    It makes you a better person than you were before...
                                                        
    
    			-Kevin

Kevin .23
That was a great answer! Thanks for entering it.

I have a few friends should read this and really see the difference...
They get impatient and what attraction was there in the beginning soon
turns to negativenes .."I'll show him/her". I always wonder what happen to
all the great things they felt for this person in the beginning?!

Meredith

Re: .23


	Wow.  I heard something _very_ similar once.  Not that I ever dis-
believed it, but I think this time it's beginning to sink in.  NOW I under-
stand why I made that resolution to go out and make more friends!!  ;-)  ;-)


	Can I ask where you read that?  It sounds like good reading to me.


Brian

    
    	I'm pretty sure that .23 was written by Ann Landers and you
    	can find it in the Ann Landers Encyclopedia.
    
    	Jane.
    

    
    
    What is Love?
    
    Love is anything you want it to be.
    
    

    "Love endures long and is kind; love is not jealous; love is not
     out for display; it is not conceited or unmannerly; it is neither
     self-seeking nor irritable, nor does it take account of a wrong
     that is suffered. It takes no pleasure in injustice but sides
     happily with truth. It bears everything in silence, has unquenchable
     faith, hopes under all circumstances, endures without limit."
    
                                                1Corinthians 13:4-7
    
                            Marvin

	I came across this last night, and thought it might be of interest
    here.  It sort of relates to .23 in context.
    
From "Women Who Love Too Much" by Robin Norwood
(entered without permission, of course):

	"Though love seems to be very difficult to define, I submit that this
is because we try in this culture to combine two very opposite and even
apparently mutually exclusive aspects of love in one definition."

[The two types:]

	"Eros:  Real love is an all-consuming, desperate yearning for the
beloved, who is perceived as different, mysterious, and elusive.  The depth of
love is measured by the intensity of obsession with the loved one. [...]
Associated with real love are feelings of excitement, rapture, drama, anxiety,
tension, mystery, and yearning.

	"Agape: Real love is a partnership to which two caring people are deeply
committed.  These people share many basic values, interests, and goals, and
tolerate good-naturedly their individual differences.  The depth of love is
measured by the mutual trust and respect they feel toward each other.  [...]
Another measure of the depth of love is the willingness to look honestly at
oneself in order to promote the growth of the relationship and the deepening of
intimacy.  Associated with real love are feelings of serenity, security,
devotion, understanding, companionship, mutual support, and comfort."
    
	Personally, I think it's possible to have elements of both.  Then 
    again, I've always been an idealist and a romanticist (?).  If I can't
    have both, I'll take the second.

    Amy
    (a mostly RON, unless I feel I can really add something of interest...)

                            WHAT LOVE IS
    
    LOVE IS THAT INTANGIBLE THAT MAKES US CONTENT WITH WHAT WE HAVE, AND
    GREATLY DISCONTENT WITH WHAT WE ARE.
    
                                RAY

<                        <<< Note 463.31 by ACE::MOORE >>>
<                            -< LOVE IS THE ANSWER >-

To what question?

    LOVE IS....
    
    an itch at the bottom of your heart that you just can't scratch!
    
    
    My dad said he heard that from a very wise 4 year old.
    
    Jill
    

    According to a book I'm reading, being in love has a lot of the same
    symptoms as cholera...

			Love or Infatuation?


	Infatuation is instant desire.  It is one set of glands calling 
to another.  Love is friendship that has caught fire.  It takes root and
grows -- one day at a time.

	Infatuation is marked by a feeling of insecurity.  You are excited 
and eager, but not genuinely happy.  There are nagging doubts, unanswered 
questions, little bits and pieces about your beloved that you would as soon 
not examine too closely.  It might spoil the dream.

	Love is quiet understanding and the mature acceptance of 
imperfection.  It is real.  It gives you strength and grows beyond you, 
to bolster your beloved.  You are warmed by his presence, even when he is 
away.  Miles do not separate you.  You want him nearer. But near or far, 
you know he is yours and you can wait.

	Infatuation says,  "WE must get married right away.  I can't risk 
losing him."

	Love says, "Be patient.  Don't panic.  Plan your future with 
confidence."

	Infatuation has an element of sexual excitement.  If you are 
honest, you will admit it is difficult to be in one another's company unless 
you are sure it will end in intimacy.  Love is the maturation of 
friendship.  You must be friends before you can be lovers.

	Infatuation lack confidence.  When he's away, you wonder if he's 
cheating.  Sometimes you check.

	Love means trust.  You are clam, secure and unthreatened.  He feels 
that trust, and it makes him even more trustworthy.

	Infatuation might lead you to do things you'll regret later, but 
love never does.

	Love is an upper.  It makes you look up.  it makes you a better 
person than you were before.


					Ann Landers

	 Gleaned from  the  net,  this  definition of love purportedly came
    from a psychological conference:

	"A cognitive-affective   state   characterized   by  obsessive  and
    intrusive  fantasizing concerning the reciprocity of amorant feeling by
    the object of the amorance."

	 I guess that just about wraps it up...


				JJRitz