Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    
    Speaking from experience....either learn to love her, large hips
    and all, or find a new lady.  
    
    She's probably quite aware of them.  And frankly, large hips are
    very difficult to 'get rid of' (I should know, I've been fighting
    an unsuccessful battle for 15 years!).  If anything, they tend to
    get larger with time (however, if she's over 70, they are probably
    maxed out)...
    
                     Deb
    
    

I suggest you take a different approach. Think of things that you like to 
do that are good exercise and might have the desired hip-slimming effect, 
activities that are fun and that can be shared, then invite her to join you. 
Maybe cross country skiing or cycling or swimming at the Y or something.
You may just improve your relationship and physiques simultaneously!

I don't recommend that you explain "why" or say anything directly to her
about her figure.  She might be hurt enough to slim down and then dump YOU! 
Odds are she probably knows about her big hips and either hates them more than
you do or has accepted herself as is and would like a man who will do the same. 

I can speak from experience on this one. Years ago I married a dedicated
couch-potato and gradually gained enough weight to detest my appearance.
My spouse 'kindly' gave me diet pills for Xmas that year. He is now my
ex-husband :-). I dropped him and 20 lbs, and traded the television for a
pair of skis and some new clothes!

	Sue

    Might I gently suggest that you have the problem and you need to
    work out your attitudes about appearance.  
    
    

I strongly 'second' Joyces' wise remark in 453.3!  Wonder if you're willing
or able to describe your own appearance and openly admit to having any 'flaws'?
How would you want to be treated by another?  You don't have to answer...
just some questions for thought...

I personally don't care to hear the answers to those questions, fyi, but
hope that the way you might answer will shed some light on the issue for
yourself.

Penny

    Mr Anonymous,
    
    I think the best answer is to encourage your friend to become
    more active with you...make it a group project..
    and most of all, support her out of affection not out of frustration
    with the fact that she is so close to what you like but not quite...
    
    she may be rejoicing that for the first time she has finally found
    a man who likes her for herself and not what she looks like..
    
    and men who are comfortable with and accepting of women who are
    a bit larger or even a lot larger than average are more precious
    than diamonds..
    
    one of my most favorite men friends is likes women who are a bit
    on the round and soft side...and my husband thinks I am sexy even
    with 26 or so pounds on me since we married...
    
    who knows what you might gain in over looking this particular flaw
    in a woman whom you other wise like...
    
    dare to be different
    
    Bonnie

    As was stated, the best idea is the exercising together.
    
    If you're worried about your physical relationship with her
    because of the way YOU feel about her hips, wait and see 
    what happens to it if you mention them to her!!  You'll
    be damn lucky to ever even see her naked again.  At least
    that's the way I felt when a former SO called me "Buddha
    Belly".  Dropped 10 pounds right after him!  (I'm small
    so ten pounds is a lot for me)
    
                                        cj
    

    What happens if she says she doesn't like your nose?

  Aren't we being alittle rough on Mr. Anonymous? I'm sure we all have 
a flaw or two,but don't most of us want to correct it? I think by
suggesting some mild fun exercise that they could do together, they would
both be happier.

M

    I think I would take a balanced approach.
    
    From personal experience, large hips and thighs are *very* hard
    to get rid of - she may be able to lose 40 pounds, but have the
    hips stay the same (and look proportionately larger).
    
    Still, exercise does help some.  Don't get your hopes up.  If you
    suggest exercising with her, and she likes the idea, fine.  If
    she doesn't don't push.  Going into a relationship with someone
    with the hopes of changing them is a bad idea - likely to hurt both
    of you and have the relationship end shortly.
    
    In my experience, the person I find attractive is the person I am in
    love with.  This can change over time rather drastically.  I think if
    you really care for the woman, her large hips will cease to be a
    problem.  If you can't live with her as she is, perhaps you should keep
    looking. 
    
    Elizabeth

    Reminds me of a joke I once heard...
    
    A woman was in with a divorce lawyer at grounds did she seek divorce.
                                                    
    She said he wasn't the same man she married.  He asked for some
    examples....
    
    "Well when I first married him he was a little chunky so I made
    him loose some weight."
    
    "He wasn't too socially adept so I helped him learn more of the
    social graces"
    
    "He didn't pick up after himself so I made him start to do this."
    
    The lawyer leaned forward and looked at his client puzzled, "Well
    what seems to be the problem."
    
    The wife wailed "He's not the same man I married  HE'S CHANGED?!"
    
    Parable:  If you fall in love with someone it is for what they are
    not what they look like.  Not to find someone you want to mold to
    suit you. Granted we would all "suffer" going out with the perfect 
    man/woman.
                                       

        I'll have to agree with the folk who say either learn to love
        those hips or find another gal. Remaking your S.O. is a really
        bad idea. It almost inevitably fails and has a high chance of
        wrecking or at least hurting the relationship.
        
        Someone asked in one of these replies if we didn't all have a
        flaw or two and didn't most of us want to correct it? Quite
        possibly, but the base noter didn't ask how to help her correct
        this flaw that she wanted to fix. He expressed the opinion that
        she had a flaw and that he wants her to correct it. He hasn't
        said anything about her wanting to change. 
        
        There's no reason why she has to be made to feel that she has a
        flaw. It is possible to be quite happy being a little bit large
        or a little bit small or whatever. 
        
        A much better question, since he said he thinks she might be a
        little bit sensitive about her hips, is how can he make her see
        that it's OK to be whatever she wants to be, that a little bit
        extra on the hips isn't that important, that what is more
        important is how she feels about herself and how he feels about
        her. Once it no longer matters, once the pressure is off, then
        would be an appropriate time to consider working together to
        change it, if that is possible, given all the other things that
        she values and wants to accomplish.
        
        JimB. 

    re: .0
    
    At first, I thought of "all" which has already been said. One thing
    I have seen (in "columns" ) is that the columnist says: "Why not
    cut this out and show it to <her> ?".
    
    Admit to this otherwise wonderful gal you've got a hangup, and wonder
    if SHE thinks you're worth making the change for ?
    
    Be sure to be ready to make some "change" within yourself, because
    .. no doubt ... you may be "less than perfect" yourself.
    
    There are "or so I AM TOLD ", that those "large patches of fat"
    go by a different name. They are " FOR SOME REASON OR OTHER" 
    called "Love handles". (No, i don't wish to pursue this any further).
    
    0:^)	:^)	:^)	:^)	:^)	:^)	>:^)	
    
    (If you turn out the lights, are they still noticable ? )
    
    Bob+3 w/ "Couchette d'amour" (some call it a pot belly ).
    
    

>        Once it no longer matters, once the pressure is off, then
>        would be an appropriate time to consider working together to
>        change it, if that is possible, given all the other things that
>        she values and wants to accomplish.

Your remarks are so true, Jim. I can think of lots of little things (losing 
weight, growing my hair long, purchasing more flattering clothes) that I did 
to improve my looks which also delighted my partner; but all this was while I
was in a relationship where I felt no pressure to change and already felt
valued and appreciated just as I was. It is true for me that the more my
sweetheart indicates that he thinks I'm pretty the prettier I will try to be.
Flattery works wonders :-)! 

Some more practical advice - women's styles vary widely, and different designs
enhance different shapes. If you happen to feel like buying her clothes some 
time you might want to secretly learn her sizes and get a good salesperson to 
help you choose things for your lady-friend's particular figure. (BTW, lingerie 
by Olga is particularly flattering to women who are built for comfort, not for
speed :-)!

	Sue

Springsteen summarized this best, I think:

"You've got to learn to live with what you can't rise above".

That is, learn to accept those things that you can't overlook.  There is no
such thing as a "perfect" person.  Even were such a thing possible, they would
_still_ be imperfect ( in my opinion ) due to the fact that they were so per-
fect and thus weren't human!  I think it's our imperfections -- to a degree --
which make us special and different from everyone else.  The trick is surround-
ing yourself with people who either accept or admire those differences!



Brian

    It's been said that people who oppose us may not earn our love,
    but do get our respect for helping us grow. 
    
    William Blake said ``Opposition is true friendship.''
    
    I do however agree with the people in this file who say that the best way to
    make a relationship end fast is to be critical of an inalterable
    flaw. The person getting the criticism inevitably takes it hard 
    because they are so close to the beloved one.
    
    People in love relationships aren't generally looking for a critic.
    They generally look for someone to take them as they are. They
    themselves like to feel _personally_ responsible for their appearance,
    good or bad. After all, they're all grown up and mature, too. 
    
    Various thoughts would probably go through this woman's head were
    you to suggest that she trim her hips down: ``He doesn't like me
    the way I am'' ``What if I don't _want_ to do it? Then what will
    he do?''   
    
    Best idea is to get her to exercise with you - or live with it -
    or get someone else.
    
    
    WW

    I agree with those who've said that the problem is not really
    hers, but is yours.  That said, here's some advice for you if
    you are really determined to modify her.
    
    Speaking as a former (thank god) size 16, you cannot get someone
    to lose weight.  Period.  Noone but this lady can get this lady
    to lose weight.  If she does it FOR YOU, she will not lose it
    permanently.  It has to be her decision.
    
    So, your task, if you really want to take it up, is to get her
    to make this decision for herself, and to get her to believe it
    really is her decision and her idea.  I know that if I had been
    told by my SO that I needed to lose weight, I would have been
    quite upset.  Walk very softly on this one.  If you tell her you
    find her hips unattractive, you will find that:
    	1) she will start crying or yelling or get very quiet and
    		depressed, and
    	2) very likely her hips will get larger, since candy is, as all
    		overweight folks know, the number one way to fight
    		depression.

    If your friend's hips are large because of genetics and she
    loses weight, she'll probably lose most of it from other areas,
    likely those areas where you appreciate its appearance.  Weight
    can unfortunately come off of a dieting woman's chest at a
    rather alarming rate.
    
    If your friend's problem is really due to lack of exercise, you
    would be most successful if you and she go have some fun *together*
    in the gym.  You don't have to say "go work off your barn-wide hips" 
    - a better approach might be that you need a spotter, or would
    enjoy her company and she might find it fun, or anything else that
    sounds like a "let's go have fun" suggestion.  There's nothing to
    lose by this - both you and she can have a good time.

    Now, when you've modified her hips, what will you start on next?
    
    --Louise

    several thoughts:
    
    Do you eat together a lot?  Do you go out for fattening food, or
    go for more healthy stuff?  Do you think food might be a factor
    in this weight problem of hers?  If so, when you do eat together,
    suggest things moderate in calories.
    
    Don't shame her into exercising...if you want to exercise with her,
    suggest it, and if she says no, accept it.
    
    I once dated someone who thought I was too overweight.  I was so
    afraid he'd leave me I dieted like crazy and lost 20 lbs in 3 weeks...I
    was not a healthy lady....so if she is going to lose weight, it
    will be slow if you want her to stay happy and healthy, and if 
    you want to see it through to the end it may take a while.
    
    Also, weight has many meanings to people.  Some people are overweight
    for reasons of the mind...afraid of sexual contact, afraid of being
    viewed as a "sex object", afraid of the successes thin people are
    supposed to have...so it may not be something she can change without
    some kind of counseling...
    
    of course, these are just questions that might apply, all cases
    are different...
    
    -Jody
    
    

    It seems to me that big hips are _designed_in_ to a woman's body.
    
    If you're talking about someone who has 85% of her weight below
    her waist, that isn't changeable, it's genetic.  I knew a woman
    like that -- you could see every rib, her pelvic bones were lethal
    (ie you could impale yourself if you got too, er, carried away),
    but she had a huge rear end and thighs the size of my waist (pure
    cellulite).  She had lost weight, and excercised like a demon, but
    it was simply _not_possible_ to modify those hips without surgery.
    
    For goodness sake, DON'T tell her you find her sexually less attractive
    because of the hips!!!!!!!  That will tear her to threads and if
    you thought your sex life left something to be desired _before_,
    you'd be suprised how much that sort of comment can kill a woman's
    sex drive.
    
    Helpful comments aside, I must agree with those saying it is your
    problem and not hers.  It's _her_ body darnitall.  If _she_ isn't
    the owner of _her_ body that what the heck _does_ she have?  In
    your shoes, I would not say a SINGLE word about it.  When my
    pear-shaped boyfriend (ex- now, but not because of his weight) said
    he thought he might need to lose weight, my reaction was "I love
    you exactly the way you are and _for_ exactly what you are.  Your
    looks have nothing whatsoever to do with why I love you (in bed
    and out), and that wouldn't change if you were Robert Redford or
    Igor.  If _you_ want to diet, I'll help and sympathize, but dieting
    is something you do for _you_, not _me_."
    
    No, I could never look at him and feel that wonderful, drooling,
    exciting desire, and that was totally because of his weight.  But
    our sex life was great [if only I meet another similarly skilled
    man someday... here's to hoping!], and I loved him like crazy. 
    Yes, I would have _really_ liked him to change his body so it would
    be less of a turn-off, but telling him that would have done nothing
    good for him or me or both of us together.
    
    Lee

    If slim hips are important to your physical response, how did a
    large-hipped woman ever become your partner?  
    
    "To thine own self be true."
    
    I suggest you sit down and sort out your real motivation in pursuing
    a woman who does not possess what you admit you need.  Then you
    can start on figuring out why you want to sentence her to life with
    a man who doesn't love her without reservation.  Is that how YOU'D
    like to be loved?  Give her a break.  Let her go.

    Here's how MY mind works;  as a woman who admittedly has fought
    the same 20 lbs for years:
    
    When I feel "fat", the LAST thing I want to do is parade around
    naked for my SO.  When anyone SAYS I'm fat, I feel like becoming
    a nun.
    
    Mostly I tell myself, "You look GOOD, and I know how hard you're
    trying to eat right and exercise.  You look GOOD!"  But when my
    SO tells me I look terrific, it's a real plus (no pun);  even tho
    I may not have lost one ounce, I feel gorgeous and sexy--and most
    of all, loved for what I am.
    
    Please look at the woman, not the hips.
    
    Jane

    My spouse comes from a family of 7 and 'momma' is quite obese.
    She uses the 7 kids in ~15 yrs as an excuse, but the youngest is
    13 now. I made a statement something like 'I hope you don't take
    after your mother there'. The question went something like 'If
    I did gain a lot of weight, would you stop loving me?' The response,
    'No, I might be disappointed but I wouldn't love you any less.'
    
    I guess this can also fall into the area of physical attraction.
    But my feeling is that you want to be very careful that you don't
    make the other person feel that you will stop loving them if they
    don't change something. I mean I love you, but could please stop
    sucking your teeth! Nothing wrong with communicating ideas, just
    be careful how.
    
    Bob Mc

    okay
    i once had a lover who blamed his impotency(sp?)on  me.
     i am 5'2"(maybe slightly over that) and i weighed 115 pounds at
    the time.he weighed in a 210-230 at 5'11 or so.
    he would do things such as pull my shirt down if he saw a piece
    of my stomach showing.he said that it was because i was fat.
    needless to say i got very freaked out.
    
    i dumped him,lost a ton of weight(i went down to 90 pounds) and
    ended up in the hospital as having an eating disorder.
    i still get freaked about my weight and i dont let it get over 100.
    
    i know that it was his problem and that it had nothing to do with
    me,and he was the one that was/is fat(he has put on a lot more weight
    since i went out with him).
    his remarks in my case were/are devastating to me.
    
    kelly
    

Another male viewpoint:

A few questions to think about:

1. Is there evidence that she was slim before, and became inactive and
   overindulged? If so, there is hope for exercise. If not, forget it,
   those hips are here to stay.

2. I have found that the women I *like* the most are usually very intelligent,
   have a good sense of humor, and are usually very unattractive physically.
   Are you looking for a sexy playmate or a companion/partner?

I think it is a very complex emotional/phychological *human* problem. It is
not just your problem or hers. If you have trouble getting excited by her,
you will not be happy. It is a mental hangup that has been developed by many
years of conditioning. Playboy, Miss America, and peer pressure train us to
crave feminine perfection. Only a small proportion of people actually look
that good. The older I get, the less appearance matters. Maybe it's wearing
off. I just want someone who has a lot in common, a good sense of humour, and
knows how to be sexy. Fat is one of the biggest turnoffs for a man or woman. She
probably hates those hips something fierce. It may be just as hard to
overcome your mental conditioning as it is for her to slim down. If it looks
like exercise might do it, take it very gently and be very loving, supportive,
and participate. I have always had a weight problem, but it is more emotional
than hereditary. Food is a reward or antidepressant. Notice on cable tv and
in the drug store how many weight loss gimicks there are. I have lost the same
35 lbs. many times over. I'm am finally learning that the old bit about
changing your eating habits, losing slowly, and getty plenty of rest and
some exercise is about the only real way to do it. Perhaps joining weight
watchers together might help. If you are not overweight, you could approach
the subject as "I am thinking of joining weight watchers". When she asks
"why, you're skinny?" tell her you are out of shape and putting on a little
weight. Let her suggest that you join together. Or what about aerobics?

good luck

Dave

    The best way to approach the subject is to embark on your own
    self-improvement and be enthusiastic about your results. You
    will probably get a "Mind if I join you ?"
    
    I'm reading "Fit For Life" and the ideas in there make a lot of
    sense. Not hard to do. A simple thing such as the *time* you eat
    different foods makes a big difference. Check it out.
    
    Dana

    Re: -1
    
    My wife and I tried the "Fit For Life" diet a while back. We stopped
    when it got just too difficult having our steak at 6:00, the potatoes
    at 10 and desert at 12.
    
    And for breakfast you can have your Cheerios at 8:00 but you have
    to have drunk (drank?) the milk by 6 and the juice by 4.
    
    Someone told us the wife half of the author team got laughed off some
    talk show when a member of the audience pointed out how lousy she
    looked. Probably because she wasn't getting any sleep.
    
    Although I must admit we do eat more fruit now than we used to.
    
    
    With regards to fat hips on women: I read just the other day that
    there are different kinds of fat cells. Some are more pronounced
    and are hard to get rid of. Apparently these cells concentrate in
    men's bellies and women's hips. Apparently this is why men typically
    get pot-bellies and women get shall we say larger hips. The article
    also said, and I'm paraphrasing, "this explains why men are shaped
    liked apples and women like pears".
    
    Also, if you were to lose say 20 lbs., you wouldn't lose it from
    one spot. Fat is used up by the body evenly from all over. So you're
    SO might lose some weight and still have large hips.
    
    The best way to lose fat without losing weight, is to build muscles.
    Women and men should be able to trim down and get thinner without
    dieting or under-eating at all. Muscle is much more dense than fat,
    thus taking less room in your body for the same mass. Also, women
    can build muscle without becoming musclebound if that issue comes
    up. Those musclebound women, and heavily musclebound men you see
    in weightlifting ads use steroids to look that way (so I'm told).
    
    So eat, enjoy and get thin.
    
    /Les
    /Les

    There is a word (Steato-something or other - help ?) to describe
    the phenomena. Where we store fat is determined by genetics to a
    large extent. For instance, African women store fat in the buttocks
    to a larger extent than European women. 
    
    The "Fit for Life" diet is a bit extreme. However, I find the 
    'nothing but fruit in the morning' doesn't bother me at all.
    And my appetite seems a bit reduced by it. I think I can avoid
    pigging out maybe til Sunday :-) 
    
    Dana

I wouldn't recomend "Fit of Life" diet to my enemies.

There is a lot of discussion of diets in HYDRA::HOLISTIC

Jim.

    DO NOT EVEN MENTION HER HIPS!!!!!!
    
    I'm married to a "hippy" who is absolutely GORGEOUS, but who has
    such a bad self-image about it that comes from not being able to
    fit the current "skinny is best" fad that it has colored her entire
    view of herself.  She can't feel attractive because of the implied
    and explicit commentary that she gets every time she walks into
    a clothing store.  I also suspect that she has had people inher
    past who made unkind remarks or suggested that she diet.  As several
    others have noted diets won't change the basic shape that one has
    inherited.  Not everyone is a perfect size 6, nor could they be.
    
    If .0 is not attracted to the woman he's seeing, he shouldn't stick
    around.  And please don't mention h*ps, someone who likes them may
    have to live with the emotional after-effects of his stated preference
    for a LONG time.  No smiley faces here.
    
    Bill_who's_been_there

    Wow! you're thinking, That's fast and cheap!  What's the catch?
    
    Now I'll tell you that this activity is also good for lower back
    problems, and will build up your pectorals and biceps.
    
    Too good to be true! you scream.  I don't believe it!  But I have
    to know what it is.
    
    First, however, I will give you fair warning.  (I thought so, you
    think smugly.)  This activity must be performed only for love of
    the activity itself.  You must *want* to do this in order to be
    doing it, not for any results it has on your body.  Your goal should
    be to get 10.0's at the Olympics for your participation in this
    activity.  *That's* how hard this is.
    
    Tell me!  Tell me!
    
    It's horseback riding.  Not clutching a pommel and sitting deep
    in a Western saddle.  English style riding, either hunt seat or
    balance seat, with posting and dressage signals and changes of leads
    and all the mysterious stuff like that.
    
    The key exercise for thinner thighs is "posting without stirrups".
    It is excruciating.  The groans, shrieks, and whimpers coming from
    a beginners' class engaged in this exercise would wring your withers.
    It takes repeated, dogged, masochistic effort to be able to do this
    for even one stride.  To do it at all well means that you now have
    thin, sleekly muscled thighs, and that you will sink if you go
    into a pool, and stop swimming for even a second.
    
    Enjoy.
    
    							Ann B.

    Re .32:
    
    Guffaw! Terrific promotional material there, Ann; the local equestrian
    association is going to be thrilled! 
    
    I haven't ridden English style in years, and wasn't at it long enough
    for serious thigh-toning when I did. However, there's another sport
    that is almost as excrutiating to the thighs: fencing. You get down in
    a special stance, supporting all your weight on your tensed thigh
    muscles, and then you dance back and forth trying to keep three feet of
    steel away from your body while attempting to smite your opponent.
    Great fun! 

    -b

RE: .32

Not doubting you, but if riding thins your thighs, why do riding pants have
balloon out in the thighs?

Jim.

    re .34: Freedom of movement. You haven't suffered pain until you've
    ridden in jeans that are too tight; your feet go to sleep, your
    thighs cramp, you get blisters... <shudder> Not to mention the
    embarrassment of trying to get on your horse and being unable to
    swing your leg over the saddle because the jeans are too snug.
    
    Not that this has ever happened to me personally...
    
    -b

    If you can't change it, Celebrate it!  
    
    .0 reminds me of the song,
    
       "... she's got a pair of hips, 
          just like two battleships! " - this  was a song of praise!
    
    
    Then you should visit the Museum of Fine Arts and learn the meaning
    of the phrase "A Ruben's Woman!"
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    
    

        Without putting too sharp a point on it, there may be a
        correlation between the following two notes:
        
================================================================================
Note 468.17                      Valentines Day                         17 of 28
RANCHO::HOLT "Transmagnifikan Dambamuality"           3 lines   8-FEB-1988 14:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Well, I'd like like to be in a position to make a big deal
    out of it... but there's damned little encouragement.
        
================================================================================
Note 453.37   How to suggest physical self-improvement to a partner     37 of 37
RANCHO::HOLT "Transmagnifikan Dambamuality"           2 lines   9-FEB-1988 15:06
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    All the Rubenses in the world aren't going to change my mind.
        
================================================================================

        Just a thought.
        
        JimB.

    re.36 Was it by Spinal Tap ? :-)

    I don't think JimB.'s point was to make fun of you.  Often the
    reasons for lack of encouragement to be romantic lie in the
    lack of encouragement to encourage romance, if you can follow
    that.  Or, worded more bluntly, if you don't give someone reason
    to believe they're beautiful in your eyes, where are they
    going to get the confidence to think you'll be romantic with
    them?  And why should they encourage you? when you have been
    nonverbally DIScourageing them?
    
    Especially to women, lack of compliments equals apathy or insult.
    If you don't think she's beautiful, Rubens' figure or no, then
    she knows it.  Believe me, she knows.
    
    --Louise

        Louise has, in fact, divined my meaning. I am sorry if the way
        that I presented made it appear that I intended to make fun of
        or ridicule anyone. That was not my intention.
        
        My point merely was that it has been my experience that the type
        of attidude expressed in Rick Merrill's response is far more
        conductive of romance than the one expressed in the subsequent
        reply. As many people in this discussion have said, an overly
        exacting standard of beauty and attractiveness is in general the
        problem of the observer, and not ofthe person who fails to live
        up to that standard. One of the results of that seems to me to
        be that if you adopt a very specific and narrow definition of
        beauty for members of the opposite sex, you are likely not to
        have very much success in developing romantic relationships. 
        
        As Louise has said, if you decide that a potential romantic
        interest is not very attractive or has a serious flaw, you are
        very likely to communicate that to them and they are a lot less
        likely to become or remain romantically involved. Beyond that,
        the small the population that you define to be desirable the
        harder it will be to find someone in it who is available. Not
        only have you reduced the size of the population, but if those
        with whom you are competing have the same narrow standards and
        there are more of you than there are people who meet those
        standards, the per capita competition is going to be high. 
        
        There's nothing "nasty" about adopting such standards, and I
        certainly didn't mena to indicate that the author of the two
        notes I contrasted was any sort of nasty, let alone the nastiest
        person. Rather, I think that such standards are unwise.
        
        And I don't mean to say that we should all "lower our standards"
        and accept less. Rather, like Rick Merrill before me, I would
        like to suggest that such standards preclude seeing a lot of
        very real beauty that is there. If you take the time to
        expereince the sensuality of the women that Rubens painted, you
        may come to see the beauty of very real women who don't match
        the very-young very-thin image that our culture seems so fixated
        on. 
        
        Beyond that I highly recommend the sculpture of August Rodan. He
        manages to capture beauty in the most unexpected places. (I'm
        running from memory, so please forgive me if I get the names
        wrong). His "Young caryatid fallen beneath her stone" shows both
        beauty and courage in defeat. "The beautiful helmet maker's
        daughter", whose subject is a naked aged women is marvelous in
        that you can see from it how beautiful she must have been in her
        youth. When you can see the victory of the caryatid and the
        beauty of the helmet maker's daughter, you can more readily see
        the beauty that surrounds you, and the love that lies behind it.
        
        JimB.

    :-)
    						Ann B.

    RE: .44
    
    Ann (or anyone else), would you please explain the title?
    
      Alan

    Jubal is a character in Robert Heinlein's _Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land.
    
    There is a longish discussion on the beauty of these two Rodin statues.
    And they are breathtaking.
    
    Tamzen
    
    
    

    	I've done extensive drawing of nude bodies.  Last year my drawing 
    	class was fortunate enough to employ three different models.  The 
    	male model was quite stunning to look at -- he had muscles every-
    	where, making him very challenging and interesting to draw.  One 
    	of the female models was a professional model.  She had stringy 
    	hair and a stringy body.  In clothes she looked fine, naked she 
    	looked sickly.  The third model, another female, was a touch on 
    	the heavy side and had thick, wavy, beautiful hair.
    
    	Viewing nude bodies such as these from a perspective other than 
    	sexual is a wonderful learning experience.  The most interesting
    	bodies (and the most interesting people) are those which are
    	unique.  They've got a curve or two.
    
    	This particular male's body was interesting, but when he opened
    	his mouth you wanted to stuff a piece of charcoal in it.  The
    	first female model, who exclusively earned her living modeling,
    	was, as I indicated, very boring and completely uncaptivating to 
    	look at.  The other female was very curvaceous and a wonderful 
    	person to draw.  Every pose found her looking totally different 
    	than the previous.  (She looked quite a bit like "Helga.")
    
	A body looks quite different in clothes than it does without.  
    	What you might find unattractive clad in a pair of pants may look 
    	quite beautiful and free without clothing restraints.  What about 
    	her other physical attributes?  Look at her hair!  Her eyes!  Her 
    	skin!  Her hands!!!  There is a heckuva lot more to a body than a 
    	pair of hips!  Look at *her*...what she *is*...not how she doesn't 
    	conform to your standards.
    
    							Carla
    

        Well, at least I admitted I was working from memory:
        
        That's 
        
            "Auguste Rodin"
            "The Fallen Caryatid Carrying its Stone"
        and "She who was once the Helmet-Maker's Beautiful Wife"
        
        I are just an Injuneer. I never could spell. Nor remember
        subtlties like whether it was the helmet-maker's daughter or
        wife who was so well represented.
        
        I also recommend Rodin's sketches and water colors for the way
        that the capture both the character and the beauty of a wide
        range of figures, both slender and Rubenesque. Another of his
        works that shows the lesson about beauty being where you find it
        is Rodin's representations of Camille Claudel who inspired and
        enthralled him. His sketches and sculpture and beautiful and
        recognizable as Camille. And yet if you look at photographs of
        her working as a scultress, and compare that vision with the one
        seen through his eyes, you can see how much his admiration and
        love contributed to the beauty of his representations of her.
        
        As to Heinlein's references to the two works, I had remembered
        his writing about Caryatid, but not Helmet-maker's Wife. I
        believe you are correct that he did, though. That passage was
        one of several reasons I enjoyed Stranger in a Strange Land so
        much. When I first read it, I had recently become quite fond of
        Rodin, whom I had encountered because of his influence on Khalil
        Gibran (who by the way wrote considerably more weighty works
        that The Prophet, and was exile from his country and
        excommunicated from his church for the irreverence of his
        attacks on their hypocracy. He also had the good sense to love a
        woman named Selma, in which I have since emulated him, although
        I married mine.) Gibran, too, can teach lessons about how we
        view the world and the assumptions and biases we bring to it.
        
        JimB.

    First, let's get Renoir's models into the picture!  In fact, the latest
    SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN uses one as the cover girl!  It appears that
    a certain amount of plumpness is directly related to fecundity.
    So liking ladies on the full bodied side has its procreational value!!!
    
    Second, re: note 453.42, I want to thank JimB for his kind references
    to my notes.  Now The following is not a criticism of your spelling
    JimB, (Lord knows, *I* can't spell!), but just to let you know that 
    someone appreciates your (possible) pun!
    
    "Attidude" - a hip compliment, or a complimenting hipster.
    
    "Conductive" - a relationship where the electricity flows!
                 
                                              
>        My point merely was that it has been my experience that the type
>        of attidude expressed in Rick Merrill's response is far more
>        conductive of romance than the one expressed in the subsequent
>        reply.
    

But JimB spells good for a principle engineer �

			(-:
				Nigel

� which is how he advertised himself not too long ago!!!

        So, Nigel, have you stopped beating your wife?
        
        JimB.

    No, no, Brons, not *his* wife, *yours*.
    
    	Jon

        He'd jolly well better NOT be beating my wife. He has one
        of his own, and one would hope that that is enough.
        
        JimB.

    re:.54
    
    Of course not. Her father can beat her, too.
    
    --- jerry