Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Hmmm...it's strange that she offered her phone # freely, made a
    date, then cancelled. Fickle! 
    
    I dislike meeting women in nightclubs and the like, and have only
    _once_ asked for a phone number; I just don't trust men/women relations
    in a place where the drinks flow freely. 
    
    I would imagine
    that now, more so than any time in history, women have more choices
    about what they want to do with their lives, and who they want to
    meet. It's great that they do, but the choices have to be confusing
    for them. And confusing for men, who are bewildered about the place
    they occupy in their lives.
    
    If you want to date women with similar interests, you have to go
    where you want to go. Sounds simple, but it's possible that she'll be 
    there for the same reason you are. 
    
    
    WW

    Do women know what they want? Good question... Do *any* of us know
    what we want?
    
    I've frequently noticed that I don't know what *I* want. When I was
    very young, I knew (I wanted to be a cowboy). But once reality stepped
    in, things didn't seem so clear anymore. From high school, when the
    guidance counselor would start in with "what do you want to do for a
    living," on up 'til now, I have had very little concept of specific goals.
    Oh, the survival ones are there, of course; food, shelter, a reasonable
    degree of comfort - but as far as specific goals that would direct my
    life, nope. 
    
    This could be an artifact of the "men have goals, women have children"
    traditions; after all, for ages, that was the only goal women were
    supposed to have, so why should they learn to choose for themselves? 
    
    Are there other things involved, too, though? How many of you have
    clear goals in your life? Do you have any goals that are so compelling
    they feel like "callings"? And how many of you feel that you're
    drifting through life, taking what opportunities come your way but
    not steering towards anything in particular?

    -b

    In my opinion, much of the reason we/I haven't found clear goals
    is that we're waiting for the *right* thing to come along before
    we'll try it out.  We don't jump in and try various things that
    come along, or go out searching for things to try when things
    don't come along.  After all, they might not be the *right* thing.
    So when something really good comes along, we don't have the
    life experience to recognize it.  We haven't been really living.
    We've been sitting there waiting for life to come along....
    
    ...much like the woman in .0.  She was scared by reports by others.
    She depended on them to do her living for her, and didn't dare to
    go do it for herself.  Well, at least she had a real flesh-and-blood
    person doing her living.  Many of us have screen figures or magazine
    articles doing our living for us.
    
    --Louise

    RE: -< MUST_Women_Follow_Men's Rules_? >-
    
    Men made up the rules regarding dating? 
    
    I don't think so.
    
    
    WW
    

    RE .2 My current goal is to find a long-term goal. Something to
    work hard at, and not just muddle along. I hunger for a hunger.
    I want to want. I am passionately seeking a passion. It's a start.
    
    Does this make sense ? 
    
    Dana

    It makes perfect sense.  What are you doing to find your goal?
    
    --Louise

    Re .6: Me too, me too... Makes perfect sense, in a weird sort of
    way.
    
    Louise, any ideas about what to do about it? A random goal-generator,
    perhaps??
    
    (I'm being a bit flip, but I am also feeling a lack of purpose,
    and it's really beginning to concern me. I enjoy life too much to
    want to waste it, and I feel that's what I'm doing.)
    
    -b

    Beth, Louise, Dana, others:
    
    I know exactly what you're talking about, and the uneasiness that
    semms to go along with the feelings of not having any "goals" (aka
    the "real" purpose of life). I've been/am there ('though trying to
    finally break free).
    
    Maybe, I/we (collectively) have become so conditioned by the culture
    in which we live, the culture that inculcates into us, messages
    like:
    
       - What do you want to be when you grow up?
    
       - What college do you plan to attend (this, when we're in
         the 6'th or 7'th grade)?
    
       - In DEC, what job do you want to have 5 years from now? (Hell,
         I don't even know what I want for dinner tonight, and I'm 
         expected to have, at my fingertips, a master plan that defines
         where I want to be 5 years from now? Give me a break.)
    
       - And the list can go on and on
    
    Perhaps the only real "meaning" of life is that we we are alive,
    now, at this very moment, for however long we may have left on
    this Earth. 
    
    Life is to live. Enjoy *your* life, the way *you* see fit to do
    it. 
    
    Let's not put ourselves down for not doing what we think other people
    think we ought to be doing.
    
    To paraphrase (very badly): if we don't all of us march in the
    same way, it's because we may hear the beat of a different drummer.
    
      Alan                                            

    re .9 - I think some of us are saying we can't hear the drummer
    any more.  And we want to.

    Re .9:
    
    I don't *think* I'm trying to fit somebody else's drumbeat here;
    as far as I can tell, *I'm* the one who feels a need to need something.
    I don't necessarily mean the "real purpose of life," but just some
    kind of purpose - even a temporary one - other than simple survival
    and physical comforts. (For that matter, if I could develop a passion
    to make the best dill-bread possible, that might even do...)
    
    What I sense the lack of in myself is the feeling, the emotion (?),
    of *wanting* something so much that I would take risks for it. Some
    people go rock-climbing; whatever they get from that is enough to
    compensate for the danger, the trouble, the pain they go through.
    I don't seem to have anything like that in my life, and as far as
    I can recall I never have. 
    
    Maybe I'm just lucky enough to have "wants" that don't *require* risk;
    reading is one of my big Fun Things to Do (in fact it's almost an
    addiction), and if I lived in a post-holocaust society where the only
    way to get books was to make arduous and potentially lethal treks into
    the still-glowing rubble of the nearest city, *then* I might have
    myself a GOAL! 

    Does that clarify anything, or speak to anybody? 
    
    -b

    
    -.2
    	I wouldn't want to claim that :

   > This could be an artifact of the "men have goals, women have children"
   > traditions; after all, for ages, that was the only goal women were
   > supposed to have, so why should they learn to choose for themselves? 
    
    	since hopefully everyone is mature enough (especially at 31)
    to make their own decisions and live their own lives.  I don't believe
    that we still have this society of the Middle Ages.
    
    -.3
    	Well, I think you didn't get the picture.  She used to be with
    someone who happens to be born into the same culture that I was
    born into.  It was obviously more a bad experience than a good one.
    So when she heard that I came from the same place she correlated
    future behaviour in my case with past behaviour of her ex!
    
    -.5
    	Don't get it!  I didn't think the rules were havily biased by
    men nor women.  We both make them up through our own customs and
    adaptation to society.  I don't buy when someone gives me the story
    about how it used to be in a woman's upbringing!
    
    For the rest I can only say that I feel somewhat good to have been
    the catalyst of such a varying discussion.
    
    tt
    

        On the subject of stereotypes and biases:
        
        Biases can be very hard to change as well as to control.
        Cultural differences can be very hard to adjust to, and when
        combined with the emotional risks involved in dating I can
        understand how they can become overwhelming. 
        
                Note: In order to discuss this, I'm going to
                related it to my own personal biases. This is
                kind of hard to do in an open forum. There are
                details about my own biases that I don't intend
                to discuss. Please respect the limits that I set
                on what I'm willing to reveal. 
                 
        When I was in college I noticed that I'd never met a person from
        XXX that I liked. They all had a hard to describe attribute
        in common that I found grating. I knew some XXXs that were
        perfectly fine people, just like people from any other culture.
        I just didn't like them or enjoy their company. 
        
        I felt rather guilty about this and after many months or a few
        years I mentioned it to my mother, at first without specifying
        which culture. She said she had the same expeience and this
        being back in the 60's and her being a civil rights activist it
        made her very uncomfortable. Well it turns out that my aunt, my
        mother and I all have the very same bias against members of the
        very same culture. My aunt and mother had never discussed it
        until I brought it up. If one of us "caught" it from another
        it was all done subconsciously.
        
        In the 15+ years since then I've known several more folk from
        XXX, and even worked with one or two. I try not to let my bias
        affect me. I think I've always treated them as well as I do any
        other acquaintance, but I still find I don't like them. I still
        can't really describe accurately what it is that hey have in
        common that irritates me, but its a common cultural trait.
        
        If I were still dating, and I began to get involved with an XXX
        woman, and then found out that that was her background, it would
        be very difficut for me. I assume that I would make the mental
        effort to put aside my bias, after all according to the premiss
        of this I've found her attractive so far, and started to become
        involved. It would be silly to not go further for fear that my
        bias might come in the way and I might stop liking her. Far
        better to just go ahead and if I find that she begins to exhibit
        the cultural traits that I'm not fond of, then deal with my
        reaction then. Right? But it would still take effort. It would
        still be scary. The bias even second hand is hard to overcome
        and hard to be rational about. 
        
        JimB.

    re: .0
    
    	Maybe this woman simply changed her mind!  In an atmosphere 
    	where drinks and inhibitions flow freely it is often easier 
    	to pass out your phone number with sincere (yet momentarily 
    	intoxicated) intentions of accepting a date should the person 
    	call.  You called.  She accepted your dinner invitation.  But 
    	maybe she just got cold feet and used cultural differences as 
    	an excuse.  I certainly don't know, but I do know I've done 
    	similar things in the past (used an excuse, that is).
    
    						Carla
    

    Re .0 (and .13): Oh, yeah, the original question...
    
    Sorry for the wild tangent - that's what happens when you answer
    the title instead of the note! Maybe we should move the heavy stuff
    to a new topic.
    
    Re the "she changed her mind" business, I'm inclined to agree with .15
    - it could be as simple as a "social excuse". I've found that it
    doesn't pay to spend much energy wondering why someone changed his or
    her mind about a social event - if the *real* reason turns out to be "I
    just decided you weren't interesting," is that really going to help
    you? (Well, maybe. If the reason was, "Your deoderant isn't working,"
    that *might* be helpful!)
    
    -b

re .6, Dana

Yes, your goal to find a long term goal makes sense.  In fact one of the
quotes from a book that I've just finished reading called "Codependent No
More" by Melodie Beattie is as follows:

  "If you don't have any goals, make your first goal "getting some goals".
   You probably won't start living happily ever after, but you may start
   living."  Pg. 160
    
Sometimes it is is necessary to be able to 

  1.  identify a problem
  2.  visualize what it would look like if the problem were fixed/solved
  3.  take that visualization/picture and turn it into a goal or affirmation


I facilitate a course called Investment in Excellence/Becoming an Everyday
Genius at the Tewksbury M.E. training department.  The course is terrific
to help folks learn more about the importance of goal setting and reaching
one's unused potential!  For more information you can contact Lisa Cole at
PARITY::REGISTRAR or call her at dtn 247-2202.

Penny Smith

    re.0
    
    Quite simply put, because women can.
    If a guy does the same thing (or even something more ligitimate
    i.e. an illness that causes him to cancel out) he is a total jerk
    but a woman can do it. That's our society love it or leave it.

    re: .0
    
    Sure, why not have a change of mind ?
    
    I've had a few  times in my life where I "began something" and then
    changed my mind. More than once I've chnaged my entire life around
    to accomadate something I "REALLY WANTED" very much ... because
    I felt the change would be far better as an investment in soemthing
    much greater than what I already had at hand. I was wrong at leadt
    once.
    
    Back to the "dating scene". I've cancelled dates, rearranged dates,
    and sometimes it is exteremely difficult to call up someone and
    flatly say "Hey, I guess I'm sorry, but I've had a change of mind
    and have decided not to go out with you. I don't feel its right
    for me, and I feel that we should cancel it".
    
    Well, at least she called. More than once I've shown up at meeting
    places and the other person simpley failed to materialize within
    an hour of the appointed time; and when confronted they simply said
    "Oh gosh, I forgot !!". Ha !
    
    Well, give the person a +1. They CALLED to let you know ! Still
    hurts ... but they called. I hope you were gracious so as to encourage
    them to call others in the future.
    
    Bob
    
    

    re.  .0
    
    The two of you sound like the perfect pair!
    
    After all, she has a cultural bias - against your culture.
    
    You have a bias against her sex, e.g., women don't know what they
    want!
    
    I don't see the problem.  I see two peas in a pod.