Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The big deal is that if the seat is up and you sit down in the dark,
    you can get a cold, wet surprise.
    
    It doesn't aggravate me if my husband leaves the seat up.  It doesn't
    aggravate him if I leave it down.  We don't KNOW that the person
    next using the facility will require it to be one way or the other,
    so the sensible thing is for each person using the facility to adjust
    it to their needs.
    
    Common sense.

    Get cats. Then everybody learns to put the *lid* down everytime.
    End of problem. ;-)
    
    Tamzen

    .1
    	I've got to show your reply to my SO!! Now, that makes sense.
    Why should I have to put the seat down? She certainly doesn't put
    the seat up when she's done!! Her excuse is that if I put the seat
    and lid down, then there won't be any unpleasant odors in the bathroom.
    My usual retort to this is that that's why toilets flush!!
    I guess I just believe it is against a man's nature to put it down.
    Some couple in RI supposedly had invented a device that automatically
    returns the seat to the down position. I'd hate to be standing there
    and have it malfunction!!8*)
    
    Mean Gene

    
    
    	Who 'goes wee wee' in the dark?  Is this some
    	feminine trait that men are not privy to?
	
    	My girlfriend whipped me [oooh, ahhh] over this last
    	week, comparing me to her brother who also always leaves
    	the seat up.  Just told her to turn the light on, look
    	down and adjust the potty any way she likes it and
    	to not whine to me about her lack of planning.
    
    	She laughed, and then belted me again.    	
    
    	Love's a gas...
    
    
    	

"You want to know the worst thing when someone leaves the seat up??? It's
dark; you go in, you sit down on the porcelain and it fits better than the
seat did. That's when you know you're in trouble."

	attributed to "Bananas" Foster.

    
	After being in a nice warm bed, my initial reaction to finding
    	a cold, wet toilet seat in the dark is a shrill "Ahhhhhh!"
        You'd think after waking up to that noise all the time he'd
    	learn to put the seat down.
    
    	Oh, Well!

    We default to "lid down", partly because of the cats (no, they've
    never fallen in, but I worry) and partly because of vistors' toddlers
    (good old Ann Landers - or was it Dear Abby? - was carrying on a
    while back about tiny kids toppling into the toilet and being unable
    to get out). The major advantage of this scheme is that since both
    of us have to "lift before use," it's fair...
    
    Besides, I think it looks better. (I'm a fanatic towel-straightener,
    too, if that means anything!)
    
    This is awfully heavy stuff, folks - can we find something more
    trivial to talk about? (chortle)
    
    -b

    Our cats have fallen in (one of them, when she was about half grown).
    After we'd dried her and she'd stopped shivering, we looked at each
    other and just died laughing.  SHE was NOT amused!
    
    To this day, if we leave the lid up, Koshka will go play with the
    water and leave muddy cat prints all over the seat, sink, floor,
    and window-sill.  That's enough to get us to keep it down.
    
    --Louise

    I always leave the lid down...  I think it looks better and is
    safer for cats and toddlers.
    				Steve

    
    IMHO, toilets just *look* better with the lid down.
    
    Carol
    

    RE: .7
    
    	Do we really have to get into "gory details" Beth? {smirk}
    
    	Keep the seat AND the cover down. I'm not about to wiz
    	all over it.  Why women make such a bloody fuss over all
    	of this is baffling to me. Can't you look to see the 
    	position of the seat first?  Do you just take things for
    	granted?  If so, then I have this fine Indian bed that I'm
    	sure you'd LOVE to jump onto.
    
    							mike

    One male - no children, no pets, no compromise...  
    
    		Seat and Lid Down!
    
    Originally 'cuz we had dogs at home...
    ... then 'cuz my small Brighton apt had birds-eye view from the LR.
    ... now 'cuz after so many years, I like it down.
    
    					--Doug

        I wonder if this oft-quoted case doesn't really tell us
        something about the different ways in which men and women deal
        with problems (for reasons of either nature or nurture)?
        
        When a woman sits in a toilet with the seat up, women tend to
        blame the men for being inconsiderate and eaving it up. Men on
        the other hand can't understand how women could be so silly as
        to sit without looking. Men, it seems, place a great deal of
        stock in being responsible for yourself and self sufficiency.
        Women seem to place a great deal of emphasis on the person
        interactions, on being considerate of others.
        
        Is it really the case that men are more self-directed and women
        more other-directed? You see it in other issues. When it comes
        to feminist issues, women seem to hold men responsible for
        brainwashing the women, and the men can't understand why the
        women don't just get off their back-sides and improve their own
        lot. 
        
        I've stated it in very bald terms, and I realize that their are
        men who act more like I claim women do than many women and vice
        versa, but I wonder if there isn't something of a real pattern
        here.
        
        JimB. 

    Let's look at it this way:
    
    Men can use the toilet either standing or sitting, thus they are
    "programmed" to unconsciously adjust the seat to whatever position
    was desired. That's why men tend not to see the big deal.
    
    Environment has a lot to do with it. When I was younger and my
    family was a generally even mixture of males and females, the
    subject never came up. Everyone was programmed to check for
    seat position and adjust if necessary before use.
    
    When all the kids moved out and my father died, my mother got
    used to the seat being down all the time, so when one of my
    nephews moved back in with her, she insisted that he make sure
    he left the toilet seat down so she wouldn't get an unpleasant
    surprise.
    
    When I was in one household with two other men and one woman,
    the one woman learned to check for seat position. After all, she
    was outnumbered.
    
    Though I'm used to the seat being in either position, I'm also
    in the habit of making sure the seat is down when the environment
    calls for it, such as when I'm visiting my mother or a female
    friend's apartment.
    
    It's really just a matter of what you're used to.
    
    --- jerry

I wonder how many have considered the consideration given by the gentlemen 
in actually raising the seat first before use - if they hadn't and the aim 
was not too good,  then what would be the aggravation?

Sigh ... can anyone ever win on this one!  We men really are burdened by
this choice / option of posture during performance! ^-)

The note on this that I liked was the simple statement of recognition of
the reality that it does cause aggro, and the suggestion that common sense 
and consideration by all parties concerned was needed.  I must admit that 
for me it is no big deal to check out first the current state of the 
apparatus,  even when fumbling around in the dark;  but when the job is 
done,  thinking about the next users needs is not always a thought that 
comes to mind - it could still be me with same or different intended 
activity / usage so which way should I ...

						^-)

    
    	I guess you dont *have* to open the car door for Her either!
    
    	Joe Jas
    

I can't believe this got 18 replies already, but here I am, contributing!
    
    Re:14  I think we are getting a little too psychological here.
    I mean, we *are* talking about toilet seats!
    Should we start a new note for "leaving the toothpaste cap off?"
         
    Stace                
    

    I wonder if the way we feel about this issue isn't determined by
    what was done in our homes as we were growing up.  My mother made
    everybody keep the toilet lid closed, and now I realize that I think
    it looks disgusting to see a toilet left open.  (I also have 3 cats
    that I don't want to have fall in.)
    
    I've only lived with 3 different groups of people in my life and
    I now realize that all the men have been trained to close the toilet
    but not by me.  Thanks to 3 women of a previous generation - my
    mother, my ex-mother-in-law and my current SO's mother - for doing
    a great job! :-)
    
    In fact my brother was so well trained that I noticed that even
    though he now lives alone he still keeps the toilet seat down. 
    It's nice to know there's some annoying human practices I've missed
    out on so far.
    
    Lorna
    

    How about a wet toilet seat from the "drips"? In a shared house
    hold of three guys and one gal, we had to train one of the guys
    to put it up befor he goes pee, then put the seat and lid down. 
    
    Such things you learn from hetrosexual living.                
    
    
    /cal

    I was taught by my father to put the seat down when finished and likewise
    taught my sons.  I've heard many reasons to put it up or down, but
    I think I can top it.  A group of us were discussing this very topic
    (males and females) and one girl said that the day she dropped her
    plugged in curling iron in the toilet is the day she understood
    why the cover MUST be down.  Guys, think about how you'd feel if
    you're electric shaver were to fall in and then quietly put the
    cover down.
    
    Thank you,
    Susan

    I am utterly inflexible on this issue, I'm afraid to say:
    
    my house ==> my rules
    your house ==> your rules
    
    My rules are that cigarettes are okedoke and toilet seats are down
    unless a man is standing in front of it while using it.
    
    If your rules don't allow cigarettes and have toilet seats up as
    a default position, that's okedoke.
    
    In "our" home this is all subject to negotiation.
    
    Lee

    This whole issue might best be settled by installing
    a small night light in the bathroom that gives off enough
    light to see by, but not enough to make you squint.

    

    re: .26 (personal name)
    
    Are you all slimy from falling in the toilet
    when the lid and seat are up?
    
    	;-)

    i taped the toliet seat down...
    
    actually it was meant as a joke to prove a point(of which i'm not
    sure i made).i went in a little later and found it taped up.
    
    we are now more considerate of each other,least he his.
    i still cant remember to lift it when i am done.
    
    
    kelly

   
    Signs seen in friend's/relative's bathrooms;
    
    "If you sprinkle when you tinkle,
     Be a sweetie, and wipe the seatie !"
    
    "Please close the lid, if we were meant to sit in water, we'd
     have been born ducks instead of women"

    
    I'm married and have two daughters.  You'd better believe I've been
    trained to put the seat (and lid) DOWN !  It's a pitiful sight to
    see a youngster wedged butt down in a toilet, unable to escape it's 
    watery grasp.  (Funny to look back on afterwards though :^).
    
    In other's homes ?  Leave it the way you found it, up or down.

    An odd subject, but some times small things are important...

    
    
    	
    	Still, I'd like to know why women don't look 

    Re: -1
    
    Because the majority of women/girls have not been conditioned to
    look... Whereas most mothers' condition their sons to look :-)...
    
    Gale (who votes for seat down!)

    Re:  -2
    
    A funny thing happened on the way to the JOHN....
    
    After growing up with a brother and father, I always took it for
    granted that the seat was always left UP.  About 10 years ago my
    husband and a few of our friends went camping in the late October.
    
    During the middle of the night I had to go to the "outhouse".  I
    proceeded to perch myself (sure wouldn't sit on that seat) over the
    toilet and had the strange feeling of something warm rolling down my
    legs.   It took approx. 5 seconds before I realized I was peeing down
    my own legs.  It was absolutely freezing out so I had put my pantyhose
    on to keep warm before I jumped into my sleeping bag that night.  I
    "FORGOT" to pull them down before I started.  Not only did I forget to
    pull down my pantyhose, I forgot to check if the seat was up - it was
    down.  It sure taught me a very WET lesson.  LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAK... 
    
    I fortunately have a husband who is very considerate and puts the
    seat down when he is finished.  My mother finally came up with a
    solution.  She buys the fluffiest toilet seat cover she can find.
    Now men have to hold the seat up when they have to go.  Pretty nifty
    idea.
    
    

    When given this problem before I have asked the question "why must
    I remember to lift and lower the seat, when you dont have to remember
    to check?" Never have heard the same person complain about this
    twice. 
    
    -j(Still_lowering_the_throne_after_2_years_of_single_lifestyle)
    

It's a blatent case of women perpetrating brainwashing of the male human race!

Jim :-) 

Okay, I'll bite. I like the seat put back down because men are lousy shots,
and I don't like looking at dribbles right before I sit down. But I don't
have to worry because my SO and son were already trained when I got them...
come to think of it..I guess my brothers were trained too, since I don't
remember ever having to put the seat down after them..

Jenna Pooh

    From comedy to social discussion to outrageous nonsense, all in
    one topic.  No kidding:  I think this is the best topic I've ever
    read in this conference.  
    
    It IS the little things that count.
    
    MM (who was raised to lower it.) 
    

    I've got my SO and most of the male guests who come over trained
    to shut the toilet after use.  I think the thing looks messy open
    (not always as clean as it could be...), plus it is easy to drop
    things into by mistake, and I do worry about the cats.  As for not
    looking to see if the toilet is in the "normal" position, that happens
    because the bathroom door is right across from the bedroom door,
    so, if I get up in the middle of the night and turn on the light
    in there, the light shines into the bedroom and wakes up Paul, so
    I only turn on the light if I think I am going to need to see what
    I am doing (then I also have to find my glasses in the dark, too)
    - of course, with these silly safety rules in newer houses, the
    switch is OUTSIDE the bathroom, so you don't get to decide while
    you are in there that you could use a bit of light!

    Might be off the subject a little, but we are discussing toilets,
    right ?
    
    And how about those talking toilet ads on the NBC evening news,
    folks ?  Aren't they GREAT !  Only in America can you go from 
    watching a report on nuclear disarmament, to watching a commercial
    featuring talking toilets, to news of the Persian Gulf War.
    
    Tom Brokaw must be proud !
    
    
    

    
    	Why do some worry about their pet's and toilets? Yep! That sucker
    will just gobble 'em up and suck 'em right down - you may never
    see kitty again if you should leave the cover up! Goodbye Cruel
    World!
    
    	I'd say the cat is less annoyed with the cover up. That way,
    if you forgot to refill it's water supply, it can just go get a
    drink out of the toilet. Do you think it knows any better?
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    Sorry, but the issue of pets and toilet water can be serious:
    
    	Small animals (including small *human* animals) have
    	drowned in toilets.
    
    Better safe than sorry!

    But I don't WANT my cats to drink from the toilet!
    They are big enough these days to climb out if they were to fall
    in (although since neither of them likes water, they would be a
    couple of angry critters), but I don't want them drinking contaminated
    water; that's why they have water dispensers.

    In twenty-some years of amateur ailurology, I have discovered that the
    best-tasting water cats come across is water left in the bathtub after
    people take a shower. Closely followed by that is water from the
    toilet. Nice fresh tap water is very low on the list of what is
    palatable. 
    
    	Jon

    re .43, *well*, I have noticed that *my* cats prefer water that
    is in dirty pots and pans left in the kitchen sink or on top of
    the stove (you know when ya just run some water in them and leave
    them for awhile).  I don't want my kitties drinking toilet water.
     My precious babies deserve only the best :-).
    
    Lorna
    

    Toilet Seats AGAIN !!!!!!!! ??
    
    As an adult male (old one , anyway): In a house with young daughters,
    and no other men: Seat got seat-with-hole got left down (especially
    after said young girl fell in in wee hours of morning).
    
    In a house with AT LEAST on male under the age of 18: Seats get
    left up. The 'females' with brothers seem to prefer to have seat
    left up. Its not so much the 'wet cold porcelain' as the 'cold wetness'
    on the seat itelf.
    
    Does this mean we can talk about T-Paper Rolls now ? I finally solved
    the problem of the 'perpetual motion roller'.
    
    Bob+3
    
    
    

    I always thought this was a trivial little issue grabbed onto by
    spouses and co-habitants who were afraid to discuss the real issues...
    live and learn!
    
    I couldn't care less what the heck the toilet looks like as long
    as it's clean.  Every time I walk into a bathroom to use it, before
    a single article of clothing is loosened, I instinctively check for
    the presence of TP and then the position of the lid.  It only makes
    sense!
    
    How many times do women who don't check end up wet and naked in a
    public john with no TP?  Not me - never!  I agree with Jim, (for
    once??), that it's got to have something to do with men being taught
    to be self-sufficient and women being taught to be "considerate".
    
    If you're going to get naked in the dark, it's on YOU to know what's
    going on around you!
    
    And in further defense of the guys on this one, NOTHING aggravates
    me more than women who pee like guys in public places, (standing),
    but leave the seat down because they're women.  Go figure!  Not
    only do I have to check for TP and seat position but I ALWAYS have
    to check for urine and more often than not it's there.  It's gross.  
    Some ladies must be pretty paranoid to think they're going to contract 
    some horrible disease right through the skin on the back of their thighs!
    If they only knew what lingered on their hands and in their mouths...
                                        
    I'd rather use the facilities after an "inconsiderate" man any day
    than after a paranoid woman who spreads her own germs.  

    And my cat has always ignored the water I give her in favor of the
    good ole' terlet.  And even SHE looks to check the seat before jumping!
    Up or down, she adjusts her jump and her grip.  Self preservation
    - always.

    And I was JUST going to get lunch.

    That reminded me of a clip I once saw where they tainted the
    saliva of a dental patient with a dye that shows up under
    ultra-violet light but not under normal light.  They had
    the dentist perform the exam and then hooked up a light
    to show where the saliva wound up.  It was  EVERYWHERE.  
    On his glasses, the light, the chair, the reports...

    Re: Bob Early and TP :-)
    
    
        Does this mean we can talk about T-Paper Rolls now ? I finally solved
    the problem of the 'perpetual motion roller'.
    

    
    	Hey Bob EVERYONE knows the toilet paper goes so it comes up
    and over the roll..... :-) that is the only way to hang it ;-)
    
    Gale

    I love this - the cats can unroll a roll of tp ALL OVER THE HOUSE
    if it's hung so that the paper comes out of the top of the roll.
    It's a natural pawing motion for them, and it seems they think
    it's the best thing to occupy the hours between human departure
    and human arrival.  They have not figured out the motion to unroll
    it if the tp comes out the BOTTOM of the roll.  Thus we all changed
    our habits to fit the cats, which is what usually goes on in
    a household with cats, methinks.  THEY train US.
    
    We don't argue over these things, but just let me get going on
    a constant failure on someone's part to hang up the bathmat
    to dry after a shower...or to clean up the sink after shaving...
    or let him get going on the presence of pantihose hung over
    the shower head...
    
    Next house, we have TWO BATHROOMS OFF THE MASTER BEDROOM!!!  That
    ought to solve all of this.  Plus one for guests, in the public
    portion of the house.
    
    --Louise

    My teenagers bathroom *always* has a sopping wet bathmat
    on the floor, once used towels on the floor ("ugh, mom, gross,
    you use a towel more than once?!") or *if wet* stuffed in the
    hamper, and the area around the sink is aways at least a 1/4"
    deep in water :-) and does anyone know why Mom getting in the 
    shower upstairs anytime day or night is an automatic signal
    for someone to turn on the water down stairs (and the water
    pressure drops to 0 :-[ ). sigh
    
    Bonnie

    I guess they are.

    Re .52, .53, mine, too :-).
    
    Re .51, teenage bathrooms, I think they all look alike.  Why is
    it that teenagers are *so* conscious of how *they* look, but so totally
    oblivious to the mess they create around them??????  Teenage girls
    emerge from their bedrooms and bathrooms looking like "Seventeen" models
    emerging from pigpens :-).
    
    Lorna
    

    re .30
    (I've got 24 replies to read yet, but I can't hold out to see if
    this has been said already)
    
    My mother and my ex-wife both complained to me about this until
    I corrected ny behavior out of social conscience. .30 was one of
    my lines and the usual answer was something about the middle of
    the night, in a rush etc.
    
    Whilst I was living alone, an event taught me PRECISELY what the
    fuss was about (and no one to blame but me 8-( ). I had been to
    a party and had ingested quite a variety of food and drink. I went
    to bed and crashed. Some time during the night, I awakened (slightly)
    with the feeling that I had to go and fell back asleep. Some time
    later, I awakened fully with the realization that I had a very short
    time to get to the toilet. So there I was, heading for the toilet,
    getting my PJs loose, turning around, not putting on the light and
    meeting with a cold, wet seat! It only has to happen to you once,
    before you see the wisdom in the habit of putting the seat down!
    
    Bob Mc 

56 replies so far... not bad for a toilet oriented subject...

I was a bit surprised at .40's "This particular idiosyncrasy has
caused more 'discussions' between myself and girlfriends than any
other single topic." In my almost 30 (God, has it been that long?)
years of marriage, it never came up (the subject, not the seat) even
once. However, had it come up, I would have nonchalantly said: "No
problem, darling. Let's leave it permanently down. I'll just piss
in the sink". THAT would have made the subject disappear forever :-). 

-- Ron
    

    RE .57
    
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!
    
    In our house, don't fight the cat for her kitty box, you just might
    get yer b**ls shreaded.
    
    /cal

Seems to me that this issue is very similar to the issue of who 
takes responsibility for being sure of a contraceptive.

Ideally, it should be shared...

But the truth of the reality is that it is most likely the woman who
will fall in.  If she is smart and is real, she will protect
herself. 


	~mike

    re .54
    
    Oh Lorna, How true.... and then they complain (bitch?) when
    you get after them to clean up the rubble...
    
    this morning we had no hot water because of a problem
    with installing our new well...
    
    the following conversation ensued....
    
    father  "there is no hot water, I will heat some up on the
    stove for you to take a sponge bath with"
    
    daugther "but I *have* to take a shower!
    
    father "well then you are welcome to bathe in cold water"
    
    daugther "I can't do that!"
    
    father "okay then"
    
    daughter "but I can't go to school without a shower what are you
    going to� do?"
    
    father "there is nothing I can do"
    
    daugther "but I can't go to school without a shower!"
    
    father "oh yes you can"
    
    she did....but she may never for give us...:-)
    
    Bonnie

RE: women & the seat

I know of one particular woman who had her seat permenantly fixed down, and had
a sign requesting male visitors to have a seat...  She claimed that it kept the
bathroom cleaner that way.  Sounded pretty radical to me, but it went along with
the rest of her personality. :-) 

Jim. 

I use to live in an apartment where the toilet was too close to the
wall. The cover of the toilet bowl jutted out so you had to hold the
seat up if you wanted it up. It was great, I never had to worry about
the seat being left up. My brother's, etc. weren't too fond of it
tho'...

Jenna

    I have an attractive, expensive toilet seat.
    
    I'd rather look at *it* than toilet water.
    
    
    jacki
    
    (please, i don't care to hear from those who would not waste their
     money on an attractive toilet seat. *you* don't have to!)
    

    RE: .2
    
    Get a cat and then you learn to put the whole thing down.
    
    That's what I did. 
    
    I didn't get a kitty JUST for that reason (not for that reason at
    all) but it worked!
    
    Linda

    I must say I'm amazed at all of these comments about cats falling
    in toilets. None of the cats I've ever lived with ever fell into
    the toilet. One or two liked to sit on the edge and bat their paws
    in the water, but they never fell in. I must just have had a slew
    of well-balanced cats.
    
    --- jerry

    Just have a baby, that will teach you to put the seat down. My 9
    month son loves to crawl into the bathroom and put his hands in
    the toilet and splash around, so now we keep the toilet seat down!

    re: .65 -
    
    Reminds me of a friend of mine whose four year old son always forgot
    to put the lid back down.  They also had an active kitten.  One
    day they left for a few hours and came back to find the kitten had
    fallen into the open toilet.  Kitty had evidently jumped up to explore
    and bumped the lid so that it fell down and knocked her in.  The
    only thing that saved her from drowning was the seat, which camed
    down on her paw and pinned her up.  They found half the water missing
    from all her sloshing around and she was quite water logged.  She
    slept inside Daddy's shirt that night and was fine.
    
    But this made such an impression on the boy that he never forgot
    to put both the seat and lid back down again.

    ***Carol***
     
       
  

    I had a cat once that fell in the toilet when he was about 4 months
    old.  I heard his yell of discontent from the other end of the house!
    In this one's case, the seat was down, he was just exploring.
    
    The same cat jumped into the bathtub with me once too - exploring
    the bubbles apparently.
    
    Elizabeth

      In our house seat dowm after use.
    
              REK  

    We lost our beloved parakeet many years ago because the seat was
    left up.  It must have looked like a good place to take a bath,
    unfortunately it was his last.
    
    I have never been able to figure out why men have to *stand* to 
    do their thing.  Leaving the seat up has never been an issue in
    our house as my husband finds it much easier to sit for all his
    duties.  
    
    Is there a logical reason to stand,  guys?

    You mean we should SIT DOWN and take a chance
    on falling in?

    Now REALLY!

    8-}

    RE.70

    RE: .73
    
    	I LIKE that one!!!
    
    	hahahahah
    
    						mike

        RE .73/ .74,
        
        And besides which, when sitting, the water is *cold*, right?
        

    re. last few
    
    Then it should be more of a challenge to see if you can knock out
    the ty-dee bowl man!!!!!!!!!!!
    

    Some are born pointers, and some are born setters.
    
    Why is it any more logical to sit when you don't need to? It's
    easier to just unzip, pull apart, pull out, let fly, and then
    reverse. Otherwise, one has to unbuckle, unzip, pull down, pull
    down again, sit, let fly, and then reverse.
    
    --- jerry

    re .70
    
    What ! I should sit on a wet seat !??! ;^)
    
    Since the advent of the "Female Sanitary Cup", women may now stand
    also ! Its not for everyone, but then, neither is the Mercedes Benz!
    
    Bob et trois
  

    I'm surprised such a popular subject has been quiet for so long!
    It sure raced up to .79 fast.
    
    Well, I grew up with three sisters and two brothers and guess I've
    developed a subconscious habit of checking because I only remember
    taking the plunge once.
    
    I do have a toddler neice who loves nothing more than throwing things
    in the toilet and flushing (we watch this child carefully! :-) )
    
    I have been living alone for a couple of years though, and do find
    myself smiling when I see the lid up, means I got another new man
    around!
    
    
                                    cj   
    

    This problem has plaqued my life to long.  Upon moving into the new
    house we set it up so every household member has a bathroom and evening
    dinner guests have their own bathroom.  Now everyone goes to their own
    bathroom and nobody complains. 

    
    RE: .70
    
    Some of us are to long and we don't want to see it get drowned or
    bent into an uncomfortable position.
    
    

    
    My girlfriend invited me over to dinner with her three roommates.
    We're waiting for something to finish cooking, and I excuse myself
    from the table to use the bathroom. I go into the bathroom and put
    up the lid: there is writing UNDER the lid! Arching from one side
    of the lid to the other like a motto on a coin is a calligraphic
    script that says,
    
    
    		"IT'S NICE TO HAVE A MAN AROUND THE HOUSE!"
    
    
    I had a good laugh from it. My girlfriend was glad, and it's been
    a good reminder ever since.

    If leaving the seat up is such a faux pas, how come I never heard about
    it till I was thirty-three?  Why is some secret society going around
    keeping men in the dark over this vital issue, but going around telling
    young women (from birth, it seems) that anyone worth a darn will always
    put the seat down?
    
    I think this is an educational problem.
    
    Jim
    

    
    Why not make things more equal?  Everyone put the seat and cover down
    when not in use.  
    
    I must be the odd one here (yeah, you people already knew that)...I
    assumed that putting the seat (and cover) down was for the sake of
    appearance and not a gender issue.  
    
    Maybe I've been reading "Kitchen and Bath" too much!  :-)
    
    Kris
    
    BTW:  Mike Z - pet peeves are *never* trival when the peeve belongs to
          you.   ;-}
    
        
    

    FWIW, I agree with one other comment made some time ago.  I put it down
    when I use it, and he puts it up.  That way its pretty equal and nobody
    feels hard done by! (^'
    
    ...dale

    I like the toilet seat down.. not because its more convenient for me...
    but because it is more aestetically pleasing to have seat and cover
    down... and I think more hygenic...
    
    Lets get basic here...
    
    Men are not the best "aimers" and usually splash round the rim (having
    shared a house with 3 I am an expert here)... they also never think to
    clean 'marks' they leave... so its far better to at least have the
    cover down... it also keeps smells in...
    
    
    Xtine

    There are actually 2 pieces to this issue, one is the cover the other
    is the seat.

    I agree that this shouldn't be a big issue so I usually just put the
    cover down when I'm in the bathroom, I don't want any stuff falling in
    accidentally. The seat is always down, I don't think I actually know if
    he puts it up...  The important thing (to me) is that I don't get
    bothered by the fact that the cover is up, *I* like it down, therefore
    I put it down when found up, I can't imagine he is going to purposely
    put it up. If the problem bothers *you* that you fix it, but don't
    bitch about it.

    
    Gail

>    I like the toilet seat down.. not because its more convenient for me...
>    but because it is more aestetically pleasing to have seat and cover
>    down... and I think more hygenic...


    	I'll agree with that.  Although I never thought about it much until
    my last serious relationship -- she trained me well!  ;-)  Even now, I
    don't think I ever forget.  And I live alone!

    
>    Men are not the best "aimers" and usually splash round the rim (having
>    shared a house with 3 I am an expert here)... they also never think to
>    clean 'marks' they leave... so its far better to at least have the
>    cover down... it also keeps smells in...


    	Whoa here!  That's a pretty generic statement, "never think to
    clean 'marks'".  Let's just say that the men *you've* known never
    thought about this.


    Brian

>>    Men are not the best "aimers" and usually splash round the rim (having
>>    shared a house with 3 I am an expert here)... they also never think to
>>    clean 'marks' they leave... so its far better to at least have the
>>    cover down... it also keeps smells in...
>
>
>    	Whoa here!  That's a pretty generic statement, "never think to
>    clean 'marks'".  Let's just say that the men *you've* known never
>    thought about this.
    
    REALLY!!!!!  Again, I have to plead ignorance, cause my Mom was kind of
    compulsive and so I never SAW the bowl unclean until I was on my own
    (fretted for awhile about why the toilets at home were cleaner than in
    my apartment - assumed it was the way the brand was designed - Mm's
    never splashed!).
    
    But once I came to the shocking realization that splashing occurs, I
    made it a point to always wipe with a tissue after each use, which
    postpones indefinitely the need to bring in a Sherman tank to chip off
    the residue.
    
    You may be an "expert", but NOT ON MEN, just the three you happen to
    live with, and obviously haven't educated.
    
    I think 99% of men/women issues arise from things like this topic. 
    Women ASSUME that men KNOW how something works, cause THEY know how it
    works, and men do the same.  It seems obvious when a man makes fun of a
    woman for not understanding how to wire an upstairs/downstairs light
    switch, but may appear more subtle when discussing dirty toilet bowls,
    since we ALL use them, right?  Problem is, we use them in different
    ways, and don't always think through other points of view.
    
    To which I must add, even though women normally have closer proximity,
    which eliminates a lot of splashing, it doesn't eliminate it all!  I
    cleaned a lot of blood and puke and everything else off our toilet when
    I was married, and considered my ex-wife PRETTY inconsidertate for
    leaving stuff like that for ME to clean (which she did consiously, and
    admittedly).
    
    Jim
    

re:  .89

>>>>Men are not the best "aimers" and usually splash round the rim (having
shared a house with 3 I am an expert here)... they also never think to clean
'marks' they leave... so its far better to at least have the cover down... it
also keeps smells in...

It has nothing to do with aiming.  Try holding a pitcher of water about three
to four feet above the toilet bowl and pour the water into the toilet, WHILE
observing how the water splatters back up on the ledge.

But I agree, I like to see it cleaned off as well.

-dwight

    re: the aim of men. . .
    
    Of course, there's one way men could choose to ensure virtually
    perfect aim and no more splashback than women (and this choice
    would also settle the "seat up/seat down" debate).
    
    They could choose to sit down.
    
    Steve

    Steve,
    
    We've had to ask our legally blind son to do just that to eliminate
    misses.
    
    Bonnie

    I tried to convince my ex-fiance to do this... to no avail...
    
    By the way... I know I'm not an expert on men... but I added up the
    total number of men I've shared houses with, while I was a student and
    with lodgers and out of 11 men I've not yet met one who put the seat down 
    without being asked...
    
    My last lodger was the worse though - he only stayed 3 weeks cos I
    kicked him out over this very issue... he couldn't have aimed if his
    life depended on it... 
    
    
    Xtine
                          

It seems to me that men and women should take equal responsibility
for checking that the seat is in the desired position for their OWN use,
and not complain to each other about whether the other person left it up
or down.

By the way.  Am I the only one that more often than I'd expect, finds
myself in a guest's home where for some reason the toilet seat won't
stay up ?

This leads to all sorts of circus acts.  Either I try to perform with
one hand while holding seat up with other, or standing sideways at the
commode (spelling?) using my hip to hold the darn seat up.
Or sometimes if tissue box is available on tank shelf, I try to bridge
it from shelf over raised seat to hold it up.

Geesh.  What do the live-ins of such a household do?  Maybe the males
there just leave it down and try to aim.  This never works too well I've
found...

Oh well, I'm glad there's a topic here for discussing some of these lighter
issues, thanks

/Eric

    Ahem, Mike Z, shame on you :*).

    I keep the covers down on my toilets so the dogs won't drink out of
    them. I don't know why I worry about the sanitary habits of animals
    that like to eat out of the cat's litter box, ughh. liesl

        If this was so important, then why don't the notes in
        SINGLES look like:
        
            SWF/seat down/paper rolls from bottom/ looking for ...
        
        Hmm?
        
        Dan

    .98
    
    Sunken toilet.
    
    -dwight

    re .100
    
    Don't suggest it or you may see it on the next shopping list note.

    If it bothers you, then just tell the person you are dating... if they
    really care about you, then they'll will make an effort to do as you
    like...  If they don't make the effort, then maybe that is telling you
    something in the beginning that you should take a hard look at.
    

        I always put the seat back down (and I live alone!).  It
        just looks right that way.  Leaving it up would seem like
        getting my socks and leaving the drawer open.  Or drying
        my hands and not hanging the towel back up!  Or like
        having the soap in the soap tray be off center!!  Or
        leaving the cap off the tooth paste!!!  Or ... they're
        coming to take me away haha heehee to the ... :-)
        
        Dan

>   <<< Note 404.103 by ICESK8::KLEINBERGER "But a broken heart don't mend" >>>

>    If it bothers you, then just tell the person you are dating... if they
>    really care about you, then they'll will make an effort to do as you
>    like...  If they don't make the effort, then maybe that is telling you
>    something in the beginning that you should take a hard look at.


	 Humm...true....and it works both ways!  After all, what is
	 compromise about anyway?

	 k

Re :Note 404.97                    Leaving the seat up                97 of 105
HANNAH::OSMAN "see HANNAH::IGLOO$:[OSMAN]ERIC.VT240" 24 lines   9-MAR-1990 11:25
    
>          -< F U sprink L when U 10 cull, B A swee T N wipe the C T >-
    
    
    Hey, Eric, have you been properly introduced to EUREKA::DENISE, 
    yet :-)
    
      Alan

.100>        If this was so important, then why don't the notes in
.100>        SINGLES look like:
.100>        
.100>            SWF/seat down/paper rolls from bottom/ looking for ...

.104>        I always put the seat back down (and I live alone!).  It

Dunno... looks like a little advertising to me...

re: .99

Gee, and we leave the seats UP so the cats can get at the water in 
case their water dish goes dry during the day. . .

--bonnie

    
    	leave the seat up in my home & U risk drowning in said 
    	receptacle....

re:         <<< Note 404.109 by EUREKA::DENISE "little lizard whipper" >>>
                          -< compromise NOTHING!.... >-

    
>>    	leave the seat up in my home & U risk drowning in said 
>>    	receptacle....

oooooohhhh....so that's why we haven't seen whathisface around lately.. :-)

Jenna

    
    	`whathisname'?

    
    It's interesting that Ann Landers or Dear Abby had a piece on this just
    recently.  The letter stated something to the fact that an open toilet
    bowl can actually be life-threatening to household animals and small
    children.  Apparently there have been instances of household pets and
    small children drowning in the toilet bowl.
    
    As both my cats like to drink from the toilet bowl (only after it has
    been flushed), I think I can see where a drowning could happen.
    
    So, maybe there is more to this than just male/female preference and/or
    use!
    

    Judging from the source (the abby types) I hope that noone here
    actually takes anthing these two say too seriously......
    I mean... really!
    

    Al
    
    
    those two women probably have a better understanding of the
    true pulse of the american nation than you or I do.
    
    If they report that lots of people have written that kids
    and pets have drowned in the toilet I'm inclined to believe
    them..
    
    they have after all these years pretty good bs detectors, and
    have been burned by being caught out with less than accurate
    material publically once... so I'm inclined to believe them.
    
    'mom'

>HPSTEK::BOURGAULT                                    13 lines  19-MAR-1990 16:26
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                             -< Life-Threatening? >-
>    
>    It's interesting that Ann Landers or Dear Abby had a piece on this just
>    recently.  The letter stated something to the fact that an open toilet
>    bowl can actually be life-threatening to household animals and small
>    children.  Apparently there have been instances of household pets and
>    small children drowning in the toilet bowl.
>    
	Here in Europe we have listened to those Texas jokes for years now. 
	Are we now in the process of authenticating what was to date 
	considered jokes only.?? 8-0... 
	I was walking behind two American tourists the other day and the 
	magnitude of the problem dawned on me.

>    As both my cats like to drink from the toilet bowl (only after it has
>    been flushed), I think I can see where a drowning could happen.
>    
	Is the punchline how you taught your cats to flush before drinking 
	or do you keep mountain lions who bite if YOU forget to flush.

    re: .115
    
    Mike,  
    
    I don't understand why such an incident would necessarily get
    publicity.  
    
    Kris
    

    My sister-in-law was born whilst her mother was no the toilet!
    My wife, then a cute 7 year old, wrapped her new (and cleaned )
    sister in the dogs blanket because she had seen it done when the
    puppies were born a few days earlier.

Re: .120

Yes, I've heard of it a number of times.  Even leaving the lid down is
not always a foolproof way of preventing such accidents - you can buy
straps to latch the lid down, much as you can to keep kids from opening
drawers or refrigerators.

Myself, I seem to have a compulsion to always put the seat and the lid
down, even at other people's houses where they seem to like to leave the
lid up.  I'd NEVER leave the seat up, and don't understand why anyone would.

				Steve

    It can happen, believe me. 
    
    	I was babysitting for a friends child two years ago.  This little
    tyke was very physical, and climbing all over things at about 15
    months.  He reached around and hugged the toilet and hoisted himself up
    and into the bowl in about 15 seconds, long enough for me to see him do
    it from across the room, drop my book and race into the bathroom.  Had
    I not seen it happen, there is a possibility that he could have
    drowned.
    
    
    Sue
    
    P.S. Our cats drink from the toilet all the time.  Once Sooner fell in,
    (she lost her footing around the edge) and she couldn't get out. 
    Nothing for her to sink her claws into to get some footing!!!
    
    

    
    To those who question could a child actually drown in a toilet, I do
    have one question.  Do you have any children?  I have two and when they
    were toddlers, they could and did get into things that I would never
    have believed if I hadn't seen it.
    
    Whether it be a rare occurrence or one that happens once a day
    somewhere in the U.S., if there is the possibility that a child could
    drown (where there is water there is the possibility), then why not be
    safe rather than sorry?
    
    Regarding the amount of water needed to drown, I had a friend who came
    close enough to drowning that he required artifical resesitation (sp?)
    from falling face down in less than 6 inches of water.
    
    

    re: .123
    
    I would think any child who is active enough to climb (or fall) into a
    toilet on their own is equally capable of lifting the seat on their
    own.

    I'd like to try to redirect this discussion to the aspect that I was
    originally interested in.
    
    Let me first quickly respond to those other issues:
    
    o	If safety is your issue, then by all means shut the cover
    
    o	If someone in the house has some asthetic desire to have the cover
    	closed, and you're willing to comply, then fine, close it
    
    But the issue I was originally interested in is not the cover at all.
    
    It's the issue of where a man and a woman are in a relationship, and
    the woman wants the man to put the SEAT down, so that it's ready
    for her next time she uses the toilet.
    
    That's the situation I don't understand.  It seems to me that opening
    or closing the seat for our own use if the previous person was of
    opposite sex is no hardship.
    
    Are there really women out there that feel the man should always put
    the seat down when he's done, in case she's the next person to use the
    toilet ?
    
    This is the part that seems so silly to me...
    
    /Eric
    

    Having my boyfriend put the seat down after he's finished has nothing
    to do with it being ready for me to use when I need to, or else
    I'd leave it up for him.  It has to do with how it looks.  I think
    a seat up on a toilet is very sloppy looking, but that's just my
    opinion.
    
    Lori B.

    
    
>    Are there really women out there that feel the man should always put
>    the seat down when he's done, in case she's the next person to use the
>    toilet ?
>    
>    This is the part that seems so silly to me...

    Yes, there are.  And calling them silly is unlikely to change their 
    minds, or help the matter one iota.  

>    That's the situation I don't understand.  It seems to me that opening
>    or closing the seat for our own use if the previous person was of
>    opposite sex is no hardship.

    That's how it may seem to you.  But if it's no hardship to you to
    open or close the seat for your own use, why would it be a big deal
    to close it for your SO if it really drove her bananas when you didn't?

    Why don't you just install urinals?  Saves on water too!

    This topic is now write locked.
    
    Eugene (The self appointed moderator)

    RE:    <<< Note 404.130 by HPSTEK::XIA "In my beginning is my end." >>>

   > This topic is now write locked.
    
         That would be nice.
    
                                        Greg

    If you're going to lock it, at least leave the seat down!
    
    				(-:  N

    re .126, I agree.  It's an ugly sight to see a toilet seat left
    up, and I want my bathroom to look nice.
    
    Lorna
    

    Couldn't you just use the MODIFY NOTE/FLUSH command?
    

    Reading this topic has made me glad and live alone and hence, most of
    the time, don't have to worry about such things. In fact, while reading
    at work, I couldn't remember how I left the seat.
    
    Having just checked, it's down. 
    
    	Andrew.

While waiting in the doctor's office this morning, I was reading Parents
magazine (April issue, I think), and it said that the Consumer Product
Safety Board (or some other governmental agency) had recorded 49 cases
of children accidentally drowning in toilets over the past 11 years, plus
many other cases of severe brain damage and other injuries from falling into
toilets.  The item went on to recommend that homes with young children install
a latch on the lid to keep the kids out.

			Steve

    Mike,
    
    Don't you think there are "freak" accidents which we don't hear about? 
    I would think that some are kept quiet out of respect for the family.
    
    How many children drown in swimming pools but not all are mentioned in
    the news - especially in bigger cities.
    
    Kris

    Yes Mike and although this sounds funny I am not in any way meaning
    
    for it to but how, many people want it known that there child drowned
    
    or otherwise hurt themselves in a toilet?  Would you want something
    
    like that engraved on your tombstone?  
    
    Skip

>
>        Even though 49 in 11 years is not many, I'd never heard of 1.
>

      Count me in as being a little surprised.. am I to understand that
      lavatory drowing is more common place in the mainland USA than car
      accidents and the host of other forms of premature death that we
      regularly read about.
      Has the "N*tion*l E???" and other base rags developed a sensitivity to
      the bereaved in the case of toilet drownings. This is in their never
      ending quest for the ultimate "man bites dog story".
      S..?

>           <<< Note 404.140 by GYPSC::BINGER "Explode an acronym" >>>

>>
>>        Even though 49 in 11 years is not many, I'd never heard of 1.
>>
>
>      Count me in as being a little surprised.. am I to understand that
>      lavatory drowing is more common place in the mainland USA than car
>      accidents and the host of other forms of premature death that we
>      regularly read about.



	 Are you saying that less than 49 people in 11 years die in
	 car accidents?  Let's be realistic here, it might not happen
	 often, but it DOES happen.

	 A very good friend of our family was taking a bath.  She
	 stood up to get out, got light-headed, fainted and drowned in
	 6 inches of water.

	 Not a very common thing to happen, but it does.

	 My kitten the other day was in the bathroom, drinking out of
	 the toilet bowl like cats will do, the lid fell down on him
	 and he was trapped, head first, into the bowl.  Good thing I
	 was there.

	 What is so ludicrious that this same scenario couldn't happen
	 to a 1 or 2 yr old child? Would a 2 yr old be able, when
	 balanced over a rim, with no feet on the floor and arms in
	 the bowl be able to just flip the lid and get out when the
	 lid fell over on him?

	 kath