Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    >Those things that can mean so much for both,
    >So little or too much for sender or receiver.
    >It is so hard to tell.
    
    That really hit home for me. I'm finding out that everyone places
    very different meanings on these things. And when the interpretations
    don't match, it can be difficult.
    
    I knew someone who, for the first month of our relationship, showered
    me with cards and flowers. When that subsided, there were little
    gifts...all of which I interpreted to mean that this person had strong 
    feelings for me. 
    
    I was wrong.  This person just wanted to be with someone..anyone.
    All the gifts were merely to get a reaction of approval/affection
    from me.  And when he received those feelings from me, the relationship
    ended, it wasn't truly *me* he was interested in.
    
    Despite a period of doubt and questioning (e.g., how could I have
    been fooled by all those little gifts ?), I think I've returned
    to the conclusion that when people give gifts, they give because
    they care, not because they expect a specific reaction.  (idealistic,
    perhaps, but I just can't be cynical about people ALL the time !)
    And in return, the least I can do, whether I am happy to receive the gift
    or not, is to acknowledge the gift.  
    
   joan
    
      
    
    
    

    My SO and I have an almost 'perfect' relationship, and though he
    is very kind and generous with his money (we usually split expenses-
    many couples of equal income are doing it these days) I wish that
    he'd sometimes send me flowers or something like that - a token
    of affection.  He just doesn't see the practicality of things like
    that.  I was brought up that way, I guess.  It's not that I go out
    and spend all kinds of money on him, I just buy him cards, leave
    a rose on his windshield for him to find in the morning, bring him
    unexpected picnic lunches at work, etc. etc.  I don't know if I
    am just "conditioned" this way because of former relationships having
    been like that, but it kind of bothers me that my SO doesn't make
    these gestures.  
                                                        
    What do you people think?
    
    Stacie

    My current SO is very affectionate, and doesn't have a lot of time
    and money....so I don't miss not getting little gifties all the
    time.  A former SO, for a long while after we parted, would send
    flowers and balloon bouquets to me.  These only made me feel guilty
    for having ended the relationship...in fact I would rather not have
    received them.  I sent him some small gifts at christmas, but there
    was little but sadness behind them on my behalf.  
    
    And some of the nicest thoughtful gifts I have received from friends
    and boyfriends are in the form of poetry or notes.  They do not
    wilt like flowers, don't deflate like balloons, don't get devoured
    like candy, and you can look back at them years later and smile,
    remembering quite clearly how you felt upon receiving them...
    
    -Jody

    I love flowers....I received a lovely bouquet from a friend recently
    and the thought, the surprise and the beauty of the flowers made
    a very bad week good.  Thank you again, my friend!
    
    For me, flowers could never be overdone...I think they are a great
    hostess gift, friend gift, relative and SO gift.  
    
    A few months ago I received a beautiful bouquet of wild flowers
    from another friend.  They came wrapped in newspaper with damp paper
    toweling.  I liked those flowers also and it was great to know that my
    friend knew how to care for something living....he arranged the
    bouquet, saw that it was protected from the heat and added the water
    for the ride from his house to mine.
    
    I have not sent flowers to a man, yet...but I will...I tend to enjoy
    sending cards and giving gifts of food.
    
    I cannot imagine any situation that would spoil the surprise.  
    
    Joyce

    re.3
    
    I know what you mean about poetry and letters.  I'd love something
    like that.  I've strongly hinted in the past that I'd just *adore*
    a few lines from the heart.  He sent me a nice romantic card a few
    weeks ago and I made sure he knew how well I enjoyed receiving it.
    (In hopes of encouraging more things of this sort.)
    I don't think I'm asking all that much.  I certainly don't nag him
    about it, but he does know how I feel.
    What can I do?  
    
    Stacie

    My husband would send me flowers now and then, sometimes a card.
    He always bought very nice gifts for birthdays and holidays. I would
    send him sentimental cards just to show him I cared.  Then one day
    I noticed a card displayed on his desk, very sweet, very romantic,
    it wasn't from me. and then I received a phone call telling me all
    about the roses he sent to another woman.  He is now my ex-husband.
                                 
    The man I care about now, well he's just not the flower sending
    type.  That's just fine by me.  But he gives me wonderful gifts,
    gifts that cannot be bought at any price.  He takes my hand when
    we are walking.  He smiles with me.  He laughs with me.  He makes
    me a cup of coffee, just because he thinks I might like one. He
    gives me a hug, when ever and where ever because it feels good.
    He gives of HIMSELF.
    
    Flowers, cards, gifts are all very nice to give and receive, and
    I'm not suggesting that most are given for any other reason than
    kindness and consideration, but smiles, a tender hand, and a warm
    heart can never wilt, can never be thrown away, and can always be
    remembered when we need them most.
    
    Sandie

    I read your base note this morning, and have had it in the back
    of my mind all day...  but before I answer it, I want to addresss
    the reply where it did bother the replier that her SO did not send
    flowers, etc... (sorry, I'm not sure wehter it was .1, .2 or .3)..
    
    I have had relationships where the "SO" did not send a flower, refused
    to send a card, would not buy a trinket, and if there was something
    I liked, would pay for half, but not all of it... At first it really
    bothered me... I love flowers, I love getting/giving fun gifts,
    and cards... What bothered me the most was that I could not give
    them to him, without him complaining... but on the other hand, this
    same person would tear apart my dishwasher, crawl under a car and
    work for hours on it, drive me to the ends of the earth to find that
    special gift for one of the kids, etc...  I guess what I am saying
    is, is that YOU have to decide what is important to you, and can
    you live without the flowers/cards/etc?.. if so, then don't worry,
    the relationship will give you what you need...  If you want
    carnations, buy them yourself, if you are happy with what you have
    it your life... it is a small price to pay for "real" love, right?

    
    Now to the base note...  If I give flowers/cards/small gifts,
    I would hope that in the giving the person recieves the same feeling 
    I got in the giving.  That is why I give, because it gives me triple
    joy.... the joy of buying, the joy of giving, and the joy of knowing
    that it will/did bring joy.
    
    If the "feelings" are not there?... I know I have been on the
    receiving end, even up to a week ago for my birthday of getting
    something from someone whom I have no feelings, or ill feelings
    towards... My thought was, why doesn't this person, save the money
    they spent, and use it on themself?... Luckily it was only a card
    (well several cards), but had they been flowers, I would have done
    the same thing that I have done before... stop by the "retirement" home,
    on my way home, and leave the flowers at the front desk, with
    instructions to give them to someone there who would enjoy them,
    and bring some joy... At least that way, I knew the money ws not
    being totally wasted, as they were bringing someone joy, and not
    fostering more hard feelings on my part...
    
    Oh, and for the ones that "think" that a flower dies, and the joy
    is gone, and your money wasted... ask any person that still has her
    prom flowers "pressed", what joy they (the flowers) brought when they 
    showed those flowers to their daughter or when she cleaned out the old 
    hope chest and found them, and relived the memories of that night.. 
    flowers never die, they just change shapes, and create special
    memories in the mind forever...
    
    Hope this gives some insight...
    
    Gale

	I think that one of the things that makes a difference in getting
	gifts, flowers, etc is the "care" that went into their selection.

	Some people only give such things when they have to or when they're 
	expected to - birthdays, Christmas/Chanukah, anniversaries, etc.  Or 
	only when starting a new relationship.  Or when the relationship is 
	in trouble.  It's especially unnerving when the flowers and/or gifts 
	seem to be deluged in such periods, or "dry up" afterwards.  

	Gifts need not be material, as the previous reply mentioned.  They can
	be as simple as a willingness to listen to your problems/gripes 
	(especially the unjustified ones! :-), or to *make* time to talk, 
	comfort, or celebrate with someone, or to leave them alone when they
	need time to themselves.

	Perhaps the best gifts simply show the giver cares and understands.  
	Might be why overdoing it seems to generate more suspicion than 
	gratitude....

		-hh

	-btw, several things I've been given were (and are still!) memorable 
	more for their meaning than their "value": flowers or cards, received 
	when the sender knew I'd be hassled or blue; silly souvenirs or 
	reminders of shared times and memories - whether happy or sad; once, 
	it was just a gesture that symbolized a dream.  

    Bob, I don't really believe that little gifts and flowers
    create more problems than they solve. (But then I am not
    single, so perhaps my view point is biased :-> ). If you want
    to give a gift to a person out of the generosity of your heart
    then do so! 
    Bonnie

    Re:8 But Gale, do you give happiness????  ;-}
    
              REK

    Re: .12
    
    Now CUT that out..... :-)
    
    Geezzz... I'm not safe anywhere :-)
    
    GLK

    
    Personally, I love to have my husband come home with flowers or
    a gift for me, but I had to ask him to stop.
        
    Guaranteed before he did something that he knew would upset me,
    I'd get long stemmed red roses.  After two engagement rings, I had
    to put a halt on the gift buying.
    
    Once in awhile if we're out together he'll stop to buy me something,
    but there's always that look that says, "let me buy it for you."
    so I do.

    There's a difference between a gift and a bribe.
    
    --L

    A bribe is a form of barter or payment. A gift is a reward.
    
    In terms of protocol, if you give someone something *before* they do
    you a favor, it's a bribe, a way making them in your debt. If you give
    them something *after* you've gotten the favor, it's a gift. 
    
    	Jon

    re. .17
    
    If someone gives me something after I've done them a favor, I consider
    it *payment*.  A gift is when someone gives me something because
    they want to, not because of any sense of obligation on either side.
    
    Gloria

    
    I don't consider either a bribe.  What did he bribe me to do?
    Not a thing!  
    
    Long stemmed roses are an apology.  I usually *find* them when he 
    isn't right there; *before* he does something to upset me.  Call
    it an apology before the fact.
    
    The rings are gift any way you look at it.

    Re: .21
    
    By all means do so!  Or not-anonymously, if you dare.  Don't
    go overboard, or you may deliver the wrong message.  Having a small
    vase with bright flowers appear on one's desk really brightens
    anyone's day.
    					Steve

    re .18:
    
    Yes, you're right that a gift is given because you want to do so,
    and not because of obligation. However, consider this scenario:
    
    Suppose you do me a favor and I say, "That was very nice of you, you
    didn't have to do that, let me buy you lunch." That lunch, if you want
    to consider it payment is payment, but I offered it as a gift. Just as
    you didn't have to do me the favor, I didn't have to buy you lunch. I
    could have just as easily said, "thank you very much, if there's
    something I can do for you, please let me know." and probably gotten
    off scot-free. I'm offering lunch as a gift. I'm liable to be insulted
    if you consider it payment, because it wasn't meant that way -- payment
    is tawdry, gifts are friendly. It's all in the intent. 
    
    Had I offered you lunch, and then brought up the favor, then that would
    be payment, and would be very much like a bribe. That's the difference.
    Bribes are tools to gain an advantage over someone. Gifts are not. 
    
    Note that flowers to loved ones, birthday presents, etc. are a
    completely different class of gift and I'm not discussing those.
    
    	Jon

    Sorry, I consider giving someone something to assuage your guilt
    feelings about upsetting them, a bribe.  That's what it sounded
    like.  Didn't sound like he was saying, above board, "sorry honey,
    but I won't be able to make it tonight" when he gave you the flowers
    (or whatever the upsetting thing was);  sounded like he was giving
    flowers and then simply DOING the thing.
    
    A gift is where it's given for the pleasure of giving, and for your
    pleasure in receiving it, and that's all it's for.  Not to win you,
    not to buy you, not to assuage guilt feelings.  Ok, perhaps not
    all gifts are that pure, and of course there are the obligatory
    gifts, but the underlying feeling is what counts.  If the feeling
    is there, and it feels "right", that's a gift.
    
    --Louise

    I simply don't think/feel the way you do.  If my husband feels that
    there is something he has to do or some place he has to go that
    he thinks I won't agree with, buying me flowers to say "I'm sorry.
    I know you don't agree, but..." tells me he cares enough about "MY"
    feelings to show it.
    
    Every one of us could probably find some fault with the others'
    relationships.  Can you who disagree with me say that you ALWAYS
    make your moves/decisions based upon the other person in your life
    and their reactions?  If you do, I'm sorry.  I love my husband enough
    to give him the space he needs just as I'm given the space I need to 
    be our own person as well as each other's.
    
    You want to consider it a bribe?  That's your choice.  I choose
    to consider it otherwise.

    Right, I was stating MY opinion of what *I* would feel given that
    the situation happened to ME.  You see things differently.  That's
    what makes talking/writing to you interesting - I don't feel like
    I'm talking to myself!
    
    If you felt differently, why did you "have to ask him to stop"?
    (paraphrase of your note)  Note: this is asked out of curiousity,
    not accusingly or anything else, I'm curious as to why you reacted
    that way and yet see things differently than I do.
    
    --Louise
    

    
    Re: .26
    
    Because too much of the income was going for things like this for
    me.  I'd have presents daily because his heart is that big, but
    unfortunately for me, my bank account isn't.
    
    Beckie
    

    re: .21, .22
    
    Agreed. Flowers are nice (if 'they' are not allergic to them, as
    I am to lilacs and pine aromas).
    
    I have the luck of having access to many 'wild flowers' in the spring
    and early summer, and 'culitivated' flowers from mid_summer on into
    the fall, and a generous stand of 'sweet fern' by my backdoor(s).
    
    For about 5 minutes worth of 'snipping', I can get a glow from a
    favorite 'coworkers' for days on end. My reward ? None except that
    'they' deserve a lift whenever I can give them one.
    
    Bob
    

A gift has no manditory return of * attached to it;  a bribe does, whether
it comes before, or after the act...

Jim.

    re: .29 ?
    
    Things that matter ? For my secretary, flowers are good because
    they not only brighten up her day, but they brighten her up , too.
    
    And, they are things that matter.
    
    As others pass by her desk, there's always the 'query': whoe gave
    you such nice flowers ?
    
    I'm practicing someting I learned from a columnist. I learned it
    about 'mothers day'. "Mother Day". is the day mother needs somethiong
    that she cannot do for herself; whether its a ride through the country,
    a  walk shoveled, a tree felled, or a long phone call.
    
    "Secretarys Day" is letting your secretary feel wanted, appreciated,
    and needed the year round. Whne people feel better about themselves,
    and realize they are not only "paid", but appreciated as well, they
    do 'better work'.
    
    Getting people to work better isn't 'why' you give them them things.
    Its a 'by product' of letting them know they're wanted, needed,
    and appreciated.
    
    Bob
    

    
    Most of the guys I have dated never gave me anything 'material'.
    And only a few really gave me 'themselves'.  So my boyfriend now
    is extra special.  He loves me the way I am.  He's given me cards
    and red roses.  And I'm not used to that so it seems extra nice
    to receive them.  He's even tried to write a few lines of poetry
    in the cards because he knows how much I like it.  (and does pretty
    good too!!)  Those things are really great but it's the 'other'
    giving that I love so much.  
    
    My family is remodeling our home.  And he has graciously offered
    to help sand, paint, whatever we need help in.  And if my mom is
    carrying something he'll take it from her and just say  "where 
    does it go?"  I'm thinking about buying a new car and he's told
    me what dealers to try and has offered to go with me to look at
    them.
    
    Everything he does for me just makes me realize how lucky I am
    to have finally found someone who just likes being with me.  
    
    And of course I love giving him cards or giving him a backrub
    when he's had a really hard day at work.  (pounding nails when
    it's 30 degrees outside really gets to him)  We give each other
    'possessions' but also have given our hearts.
    
    
    Oh and  re:  .7 and .8   Your notes almost brought tears to my
    eyes!!!  >sniff<
    
    				JJ
    
                                  

    .32  But most important YOU appreciate HIM and his
    thoughtful gestures!!  That makes all the difference!
    
    (p.s.  I'll bet you do lots of thoughtful things for him too!)
    
    

    .8  speaking of tears....
    
    I still have the corsage (pressed) that my father gave me 
    24 years ago.  He died when I was 13...