Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    a good rule of thumb is that if you think you are having a problem
    with booze,then it is a problem.
    another question to ask yourself has  my life become unmanagable 
    because of alcohol?
    have you lost anything due to alcohol?
    
    						kelly

    Have you tried collecting various pamphlets on alcoholism and addiction
    and given them to this person?  Once he reads what an addict really
    is perhaps he will see that you certainly are not one.  In fact,
    I believe you can find information stating that a few drinks every
    once in a while can be healthy.
    
    Just a suggestion...
    

    First of all, let me start by stating that I do not make a
    destinction between "hard booze" and "beer". The idea that beer
    is showhow less harmful than booze was invalidated long ago.
    
    Now, If I take .0 literally (as to how much drinking you do), I
    would say that I didn't see any problem there at all. On the other
    hand, your roommate has gone through some highly emotional
    circumstances concerning liquor. Unfortunately (for you), he has
    developed some highly emotional problems to go with it. Understandable
    mind you, but unfortunate. He is very drastically overreacting to
    alcohol and should seek treatment for himself. He is exhibiting
    the same symptoms as say someone who survived a plane crash, and
    then absolutely refused to fly again, or let any loved one fly.
    
    Good luck. (and I mean that sincerely).
    
    
    Steve

    I think I have an idea where your partner is coming from, since
    I used to feel similarly threatened by drinking (not as extreme,
    though.)  Here are some ideas I had while sitting here.
    
    In Montana, where I grew up, there are two kinds of people -- drinkers
    (heavy) and nondrinkers.  "Social drinking" means you go out to get
    drunk instead of doing it at home.  My home was of the nondrinking
    variety; occasionally we had beer in the house during the summer when
    it was hot -- like one six-pack per summer.  My parents acted like
    they were uncomfortable even with that.  (I have reason to think
    my grandfather had recoverd from a drinking problem.)
    
    When I moved east, it took me a long time to get used to the differing
    morality about drinking.  I discovered that I liked alcohol (especially
    Scotch); this discovery disturbed me greatly.  I went through a period
    of several years where I felt that having a Scotch more than a couple
    of times a week meant I was in danger of turning into an alcoholic. 
    
    One day I told Neil about this moral dilemma of mine.  He looked
    at me kind of funny and said, "What's immoral about trying to decide
    whether or not you want a drink before dinner? If you don't want
    it, don't have it.  If it bothers you, if it causes you problems,
    don't drink it.  But it's a health problem, not a moral issue."

    If your partner came from an alcoholic home, he's very likely to regard
    consumption of alcohol as a moral issue and to see taking even one sip
    of something mildly alcoholic as akin to bargaining with the devil --
    give him an inch and he'll take over your soul. You're dealing with
    something that for him symbolizes all evil. In all likelihood he blames
    drinking for everything that can go wrong in a family. 

    You might try talking to him about it in those terms -- what it
    means to him on an emotional level.  He may be concerned that if
    you drink, he will lose you.  He may associate your drinking with
    a parent's drinking and think it means he has made you unhappy.
    You'd have to know his exact family pattern to get an idea.  
    
    If he's not in a support group for Adult Children of Alcoholics, he
    probably ought to look into it.  Most children of alcoholic families
    have survived what their family did to them, but haven't grown out of
    it and haven't healed inside.  His fear of your drinking could stem
    from his own fear of losing control of the world. 

    I don't know if there's a support group for partners of adult children
    of alcoholics, but if you called your local chapter, they might
    be able to help you.  
    
    --bonnie

 Re.0
        Even if you tried to comply with your roommates wish you would
      have a hard time. If you tried to enter treatment or a rehab
      center they would turn you down cold. They would simply tell
      you that you have no problem and that it would be a waste of time
      and resources to attempt to treat you. 
                                                  Mike
        

    
    I cannot escape the feeling that something else may be wrong there.
    
    The next time you decide you want a drink, and you begin to get
    the riot act, ask why you're getting it.  He must have some reason
    for feeling this way.  If he can't come up with a satisfactory answer,
    then you really need a long talk about more than your occasional
    dip of the sauce.
    
    DFW

    Thanks for the feedback (of course keep them coming).
    
    Re. .1
    
    As mentioned in the base note, I don't drink heavy enough to identify
    with any of the "check questions" except losing anything and the
    only thing I've lost was my fiance.
    
    Re: .3
    
    That is almost exactly what I've been telling him and all he says
    is "there's nothing any one can tell me to change my mind".  He
    won't even consider going in for therapy.  Claims it's me with the
    problem not him.  I'm glad to hear that someone else had the same
    thought on it as I did.
    
    Re: .5 
    
    My roomates parents were non-drinkers, however, I think I should
    mention that my mother is an alcoholic.  Though when I was growing
    up she was more like a closet alcoholic.
    
    Thanks again
    
    CC
    

    re .8
    
    Were we experiencing other difficulties, then I would agree with
    your statement.  When I take an occasioal drink, it is not a riot
    act he goes into, it is a state of depression, which lasts anywhere
    from 1 to 3 days.  Then when he comes out of the depression, he
    suggests treatment.
    
    CC
    

    Sounds like its the wrong person who should be suggesting treatment.

    show him the questions i asked you,these are the ones from A.A literature.
    
    as an aside,children of alcoholics tend to be either teetotlers
    or alcoholics themselves.studies are showing more links towards
    inheriting the disease,also it is possible to have the disease without
    ever have taken a drink,that is know as having the -ism.
    
    						kelly

    Kelly,
    
    In response to your questions with his first wife she had a serious
    problem with her drinking whereas he had to sign her in for treatment
    (on two different occasions) while she was drunk.
    
    His life became very unmanagable during that time because he had
    a set of triplets that were still in diapers and a 3 month old son
    which he was getting no help from her because she was either always
    gone out drinking or home passed out.
    
    The only thing I know of that he lost was his grandfather.
    
    CC
    

    
    
    	Spoken from years of A.A. meetings (I'm a child of a deceased
    alcoholic), I think your roommate is slightly paranoid of drinking
    and SHOULD dicuss it with either an A.A. group or a therapist.
    
    	Being the oldest child of an alcoholic, I am in a VERY dangerous
    position, statistically speaking of becoming an alcoholic myself.
    Thankfully, I'm VERY aware of it and drink responsibly and can 
    have just as much fun on Perrier as Guinness. The way you are
    describing your drinking habits doesn't raise an alarm with me but
    if YOU are worried about it at any time then go to an A.A. meeting
    and talk it out.
    
    							mike

    I just recently went through a personal relationship with a woman
    who had a daughter recovering from alcoholism. I think Kelly has
    offered some sound advice around the issue. If alcohol causes the
    drinker to have problems, i.e., OUI, passing out, aberrations of
    the persons behavior, money problems, then it would probably be
    agreed that the person is an alcoholic. I am a relatively infrequent
    drinker because I don't feel the need to imbibe, were I to be a
    heavy drinker then I would probably have problems and hence need
    treatment.
    
    Some AA members are over zealous in their treatment of drinking,
    if you are having problems as a result of your drinking then
    investigate counseling through EAP. Please recognize that most
    alcohlics not under treatment for their disease will tell you that
    they can control their drinking - this is a fallacy of the disease.
    
    al
    

    One of my first lovers was similarly fanatic about alcohol.  He
    also didn't like _any_ drugs (including aspirin), or caffeinated
    beverages.  While I was seeing him, I took no aspirin, drank seldom
    (didn't get drunk my first year in college!!), and quit coffee.
    
    Luckily for me, _I_, not some lover, command my life now, and I'll
    do what I darn well please.
    
    In any case, I heard somewhere that the life expectancy is
    significantly higher for someone who averages one drink/day than
    for the absolute teetotaller; it seems the lifestyle of a _moderate_
    drinker is less tension-filled...
    
    Lee

|< Note 347.16 by GCANYN::TATISTCHEFF >
|                          -< Better Life Expectancy >-
|    In any case, I heard somewhere that the life expectancy is
|    significantly higher for someone who averages one drink/day than
|    for the absolute teetotaller; it seems the lifestyle of a _moderate_
|    drinker is less tension-filled...
|    
|    Lee

Well, as my Father says,  
	"If you don't smoke, don't drink and don't chase women...
	 you won't live longer, but Hell, it'll seem longer"

			Nigel

    RE.0 Ask yourself "Am I an adult ?" If yes, then drink what
    you like, when you like. If your roomie met me, he'd flip :-)
    When I feel like tying one on, I do. When I don't, I drink 
    Koolaid. He has a problem. He's playing a game called "Father 
    Knows Best."
    
    Dana_who_has_been_known_to.....

    I'm a confirmed "take it or leave it" person with regard to alcohol;
    wine with dinner when eating out is about the extent of it, although if
    it gets really hot I will sometimes have a beer. It would not dampen my
    enjoyment of a meal or a party if there were no alcohol there. My
    father is a recovered alcoholic who, while never displaying any of the
    worst effects to us, went through some awful times himself and won't
    risk even a taste of the stuff anymore. (He has gone so far as to
    avoid drinking apple cider that might have begun to ferment. This
    is a life and death matter to him, and he is appropriately cautious.)
    
    I mention that because, if .0's roommate is concerned (read "afraid")
    that he may be an alcoholic himself, he may be scared to have alcohol
    in his presence at all. My father doesn't go that far, and doesn't ask
    *us* to avoid the wine-with-dinner or anything, but I usually feel that
    it would be kinder not to present even a distant temptation. Why should
    I indulge in what is, at best, a mild pleasure for me, at the expense of
    making someone I care for uneasy? 

    Now, it does sound as if the roommate is going overboard, but *if*
    Carolyn doesn't want - or think it's possible - to change him (and *if*
    she wants to maintain a cordial relationship!), then perhaps the next
    time the issue comes up she could say, "You know I don't agree with
    you, but I am willing to avoid drinking in your presence since I know
    it bothers you so much. Now, about that habit of yours that has
    been bothering me..." 

    -b

    (copy of statement "won't drink in your presence..." here)
    
    
    That would mean that I could not drink in my own home.  And I don't
    want to wear out my welcome at friends home (or even the neighborhood
    bar) just because I can't/won't drink in the place where I pay half
    the rent.
    
    CC
    

    It seems as though he really has a problem and you don't, however
    he keeps putting you on the defensive.  The next time he becomes
    depressed over your drinking you can reverse the roles.  "I'm worried
    about your paranoia about drinking."  Show him your concern for
    HIS problem and maybe he will recognize it...
    
    Debra
    

    re .20:
    
    Always there, is he? Tell him he should get out more (suitably
    flippant tone here)...
    
    Please note that I'm not *recommending* that you take that course,
    simply that it's an option, if keeping the peace becomes sufficiently
    important to you. The guy sounds like he's either a very troubled
    person or a jerk (or both), but since I don't know the situation I had
    to offer the possibility that he's really scared, scared for himself as
    well as for you. If I were in your situation I'd certainly try the
    other techniques suggested; but if he won't be reasoned with, won't see
    a counselor, and won't back down, then the decision comes back to you. 

    (Sorry if this sounds know-it-all; I've never been in a situation
    such as you describe, and I probably wouldn't handle it at all well
    if I were, so any advice I give is purely speculative - but
    well-meant!)
    
    -b

    re: .21
    
    I'll try that and let you all know how it works.  Thanks.
    
    re: .22
    
    I hope you don't think that I was being rude in my response to your
    suggestion.  Everyone's responses are deeply appreciated. :-)
    
    CC
    

    Carolyn, in your base note you describe him as your "roommate (ex-
    fiance)", and I believe in one of your other responses to the
    definition of what constitutes an alcoholic, you stated "the only
    thing I've lost through drinking is my fiance".
    
    Even though he's your ex-fiance, do you and your roommate still
    have a "relationship" (Note 334)?
    
    If you do, then does he infer your not drinking at all will lead
    to his becoming your fiance (no "ex" here) again, and eventually
    marriage?
    
    If you do not have a "relationship", then does he infer that your
    not drinking at all will lead to a "relationship" that will progress 
    to becoming engaged again, and eventually marriage?
    
    From what you've described it seems apparent that he's extremely
    phobic and/or domineering about this issue. I can't help wondering
    if your occasional drinking is actually  *THE ISSUE*, or if he
    is playing a head game of who is in control.
    
    If you no longer drank at all, do you suppose there might evolve
    *ANOTHER ISSUE* that he felt strongly about - one for which *you*
    would have to change your behavior or actions again because *he* could 
    not compromise?
    
       Alan
    

    Re my reply in .24: 
    
      In the second paragraph involving "relationship", I meant
      to refer to Note 346, not 334).
    
       Alan

    I think it is a safe assumption to say that my drinking is the issue.
    He is not a domineering kind of guy and there is a lot of things
    I do that most men won't put up with.
    
    We do not have a relationship, I have no plans of becoming re-engaged
    to him because I'm beginning to believe that he is also a manic
    depressive (?) and needs and excuse to become depressed.  Since
    my original reason for calling off the engagement was because of
    his behavior was due to the *drinking* I wanted some unbiased opinions.
    
    CC
    

    
    
    A friend of mine went through a terrible time a few months ago....new
    job she ended up not liking, broke up with her boyfriend and was
    evicted from her apartment (altogether another saga). Ann decided
    that since she had "few friends who were there when she needed them"
    that she would drink. In her eyes drinking solved her problems,
    made her feel good and all sorts of rubbish. This girl has come
    into the nightclub where I work about every Fri-Sat night lit as
    a Christmas candle. It is ver sad because she felt that there was
    no one to turn to and talk. The worst part about all of this is
    she has gotten totally irresponsible and there are a few people
    whom she hangs around with because she *always* buys the beer or
    whatever they drink. She is constantly drunk or pretty close. Ann
    also blames it on Al (her ex) because she feels that if he were
    there it wouldn't be like it is now. She also gets drunk to forget.
    She forgot that once when she was drunk she grabbed a guy between
    the legs (which got back to Al), she forgot about how she tried
    to beat up some girl for "glaring at me", so now Ann drinks to forget
    what she hasn't forgotten already.
    
    I guess the moral of this story is that you can control what you
    do. Not your SO or anyone else. The chances are higher if you do
    have one parent who is an alcoholic (or both). A guesstistic said
    that most people will have their first taste of alcohol by the age
    of seven, and they will have had their first drink by the age of
    twelve. the Key though seems to be that you stay in control. If
    it starts to rule what you are as a person then you have to be in
    control enough to be able to stop. Some people can't.
    
    So sad.....

    re: 
    Used to be (maybe still is) an Alchoholics Anonymous conference
    somewhere (in Atlanta,I think). I some wants to get access, perhaps
    someone else can redirect replies ?
    
    I had a really good upbringing on the subject of alchohol. My mother
    was a strict Baptist and absolutley refused to have any alchohol
    in the house at all. SO my Dad used to drive home from a neighboring
    city (where taverns/bars) were permitted .. generally soused.
    
    3 of the 7 or 8 "most" influential people I knew (influence on my
    life) had a heavy dependency on Alchohol. The "funniest" part, if
    it can be construed as funny, the three "most saintly" men my mother
    felt my father should "be more like" - didn't drink, smoke, swear
    (at least she thought so), even temperament, 'good christians',
    faithful, tolerent, 'good fathers' -- the best it would seem --
    ere all dead before their 62nd birthday (2 years after retiement).
    My Dad lasted until he was 71; recovered from 5 strokes; smoked
    camels to the day he died; and drank till then, too.
    
    BUT .. listen .. don't go away yet. he also worked hard, phyysical
    work, ate well, all his life . Even when he was 55 noone wanted
    to tangle with him .. small (short), 'wirey', muscular ... and generous
    to a fault. I beleive it was the "hard, physical OUTDOOR work that
    kept him going" -- lots fresh air and lots of good food.
    
    I figure, with 'genes' like that .. if I keep up my health, stay
    away from a "booze-dependency" and smokers .. maybe I will last
    to 110 ! (one grandfather lasted till 90, and grandmother 'on other
    side' till she was 96).
    
    
    Check in  about 45 years, and I'll let you know ! :^) 
    .bob.
    .bob.
    
    

    Re: Alcoholics Anonymous conference:
    
    I have been told (I asked my boss) that this conference's security
    is tightly guarded to prevent job reprisals and embarrassment, etc.
    
    She said that if you have a legitimate need to participate in this
    conference, you should go through good ol' EAP.  They'll sign you
    up for it.
    
    

    I'm not so sure how correct the information in note .30 is, but
    here is the announcement and the names and addresses of people to
    contact about the conference.
    
    Tamzen
    
             <<< TLE::PUBD$:[VAXNOTES]EASYNET_CONFERENCES.NOTE;6 >>>
                       -< EasyNet Conference Directory >-
================================================================================
Note 923.0                          ANONYMOUS                            1 reply
ODIXIE::JTATE "Easy does it"                          9 lines   5-SEP-1986 16:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A members only conference for recovering alcoholics and addicts
    to get to know one another and to share experience, strength and
    hope.  Any who feel they may have a problem or have family members
    or loved ones with problems are encouraged to join us.
    
    For membership contact ODIXIE::JTATE    Jerry 351-2634
    			   GRECO::GORDON    Bill  223-7123
    
          <<< TLE::PUBD$:[VAXNOTES]EASYNET_CONFERENCES.NOTE;6 >>>
                       -< EasyNet Conference Directory >-
================================================================================
Note 923.1                          ANONYMOUS                             1 of 1
GORDON::GORDON                                       11 lines  13-JUL-1987 09:20
                                  -< Update >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Additional moderators have been added to the ODIXIE::AA Notes
Conference.  In addition to:

	ODIXIE::JTATE     Jerry   351-2634
    	GRECO::GORDON     Bill    223-7123
    
The new moderators are:

	FDCV10::BEST      Jerry   251-1082
	ATPS::GREENHALGE  Beckie  381-2734

    

    
    Your roommate is suffering from the "ism" of alcoholism.  When you
    live with an alcoholic, your whole focus becomes the alcoholism.
    Look at it this way:
    
      Alcoholic  -----> focus on alcohol
      Spouse of Alcoholic --------> focus on Alcoholic & its alcohol
      Remove Alcoholic ----------> Spouse is focusing on alcohol
    
    Suggest that your roommate attend an Al-Anon meeting, pick up the
    literature available, and talk to some of the people.
    
    Alcoholism is a "Family Disease", affecting all, not just the
    alcoholic.  After living in sheer hell (believe me, that's just
    what it is), he has reason to be frightened.
    
    Do both of yourself a favor - get to Al-Anon - he to understand
    his feelings, and you to help you cope with them.
    

    I want to thank you all for your supportive responses.  I will let
    you all know the results of our EAP counsoling session.
    
    CC