Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Well good for you!!!!
    
    That's the way it should be.  The relationship will last alot longer
    if it is started off the right way.
    
    Too bad more guys can't hold off on the intimacy until they really
    know the woman.
    
    Maybe these women think that you aren't interested "seriously" because
    you haven't tried to be intimate.  They may feel that you are only
    interested in being "friends".
    
    Carol

    
    
    Let's just for the sake of example take a man and female.  The man
    asks the woman for a date.  They date once, and the evening ends
    with a kiss, thats it.  Woman and man both think that was nice.
        2nd date, ends the same way.  Alright that's o.k. too.
        Now we're talking 5 or 6 dates and they all end the same way.
        Woman goes home and starts to think to much (which is a very
    big problem for many women [thinking to much]).  Why hasn't man
    tried anything yet?  Maybe he really doesn't like me.  Maybe he
    feels bad for me (for whatever reasoning she has at the time). 
    Maybe I'm to fat?  
         Do you see where this is going?  I think even if the man did
    try to become intimate the woman more than likely would say no,
    especially considering the sexual diseases of our day.  However,
    even if she did say no, she sure would feel good about herself.
    Woman feels wanted.  That's the bottom line.  We are all insecure
    about ourselves to some degree.  We all like to feel that we are
    wanted.
    
                              SHIRLEY
    
    

    (BRAT::NEFF, huh. Why do I think it's really Kerry F. in disguise?)
    
    The dating game is one of the roughest games around, and one I've
    never played very well - didn't even start until after I graduated
    from high school. Most of my college dating involved going out once
    or twice with someone who fell into the category of "He's a nice
    guy, but...", a category well known to most of us. (It equates,
    I believe, to "But she has a swell personality" when used to describe
    women.)
    
    If I had been more mature and less worried about finding someone
    who could make me forget all the fantasy heroes of book, stage,
    and screen, I might have had an enjoyable time with the guys who
    were more like me - but I didn't. I'd make a token gesture and go
    out with them once, and then not go again. It had little or nothing
    to do with the degree of intimacy expressed, though; it was just
    that I had my expectations set at an unreasonable level, and had
    never learned to socialize for its own sake.

    Oddly enough, the guys I felt closest to during those years were
    those who went out with my roommates. Since there wasn't any question
    of a possible romance, I could deal with them as people instead
    of seeing them as failures on a scale that started with Superman
    and went up from there.
    
    In later years, thank God, I relaxed about the whole thing, and
    found out that I could have friendly, non-intimate relationships
    with men that might or might not turn into something closer. One
    of them eventually did, and we're married now, but the first few
    months that we knew each other we pretty much kept our distance.

    I don't believe that a man should have to "put the moves on" a woman to
    demonstrate interest, and a woman should know better than to consider
    that the only indication or interest. However, if the woman isn't
    getting any other signals of interest - if the man doesn't listen to
    her, or doesn't seem to value time spent with her - then she might call
    things off, perhaps not sure herself just why, and might blame it on
    the easiest thing to hand. "He never tried to kiss me" is simpler to
    explain than "Well, I don't know, it just never felt like he really was
    aware I was there." 

    -b

    Ah the impossible question.  Well this woman sure can't figure it
    out.  My stats so far indicate that if we start out as friends,
    we'll never become lovers, even if I want to, er, go a little further.
    If things get hot and heavy right away, they'll last until we find
    out it isn't going to work because we have nothing in common.  Catch
    22: if I don't pounce right away he will be a friend for a while
    whether or not I'd prefer him as a lover, if I pounce right away he'll
    be a lover for a while and then an ex.
    
    The difficulty in becming lovers after being friends first stems
    from insecruity, I believe.  A rejection by a friend hurts much
    more deeply than a rejection by a relative stranger.  Thus I am
    free to pounce [usually in my case not very aggressively, more like
    dropping the right hints] only on people whose opinions of me are
    not terribly important to me.
    
    Lee

     Re .4   Bob, you forgot the most important place - 
    
    ***SHOPPING MALLS***
    
    

    Re: .4
    
    "Recent divorcees?"  A common myth, I suspect.
    
    When I first separated [the divorce took another several months],
    it took the father of my favorite babysitter all of about 3 days
    to phone me up and offer to "help" me out with my "special problem."
    
    I would have been very grateful for a extra friend (especially since
    many of my married friends seemed to disappear suddenly -- but that
    is another topic...), but I was absolutely infuriated but the less-
    than-subtle suggestion.  
    
    WHY the common assumption that a "recent divorcee" (1) is in
    desperate need of sex and (2) has no sexual partner already?
    
    	Penelope
    

    
    	Again, we Humans try to apply reason, intellect and logic to
    something that's -by nature- unreasonable, doesnt require much thought,
    and illogical. Who sits there with a time-management program, plotting
    out schedules as to *when* things are supposed to happen?
    
    	What happened to "when lightning strikes" - the mystical pair
    of eyes clear across the room, seeing only one person in a crowd,
    feeling your heart take off, catchin that buzz, talking on the sixth
    sense wavelength, a smile that cant wait...I dont know, dont you
    *feel* when you've found a little bit of Heaven?
    
    	People tend to lose interest when *the fire* either dies, was
    never there, or it was erronously concluded that it was never there.
    "Gee, guess I didnt do much for him/her!" Yeah, "ego" is in there
    too. I'd say that the most successful marriages never lose their flame 
    - that original spark is recognised as, well, part of being alive.
    So you nurture it as you would your own health.
    
    	Yes, in these days of "you'll never know what you'll catch"
    its definately in one's best interest to apply reason and logic
    to the dating game, i.e. dont do anything stupid. Stupid meaning
    whatever would be stupid for *you* too. But that doesnt mean you
    just forget about passion and romance for "this amount of time" -
    things will hardly work that way...
    
    	Joe Jas
       

    
    re: .5
    
    Geez, Lee, maybe you and I can start a club.  I'm playing the exact
    same riff.  Of course, I've never had the courage to make romantic
    overtures right away (I'm so shy most of the time I can taste it).
    So, lovers tend to just sort of happen.  Friends take a real effort.
    Which I find particularly maddening, because if you're going to
    love someone, says my logical mind (I tend to over-analyze everything,
    too) you'd better make sure you can get along first, or it's going
    to make things pretty difficult.
    
    It never occurred to me to think of rejection by friends as more
    painful than lovers who were relative strangers.  Rejection and
    I are on very good terms.  It pays regular visits, and I put up
    with it until it starts to get in the way of something like work,
    then it goes away again.  It usually just hurts bad enough in general
    to make me ignore any thought of degrees of pain.
    
    DFW
    

    It seems to me that it is a lot easier to trust someone with my
    body than to trust them with my emotions.  I have learned to protect
    my body, but somehow I have never been able to protect my heart
    and soul.
    
    I do believe that the most fulfilling relationship is one where
    my best friend is also my lover.  However, having had this type
    of relationship in the past, and unfortunately, having to go thru
    the pain of losing this relationship, I find myself unable to take
    a chance at having it again.  
    
    Take a chance?  Trust in someone?  Possibly with my body, unlikely
    with my soul.
    
    s.d.
       

    re .10:
    
    Sandie, I'm very sad to hear you say that.  I can feel for your
    fear of being hurt in a physical relationship with someone that
    is a real friend.  That is *not* an easy one to get over.  But it's
    scary for me to think of going through my life resigned to never
    having, and never giving myself a *chance* to have, a truly "whole"
    relationship.
    
    I don't know how old you are, but I'd guess you've got a long time
    left to enjoy your life.   Open yourself up to risking a little
    more;  it is the only way you will have a chance for what
    you and most of us really want.
    
    Don't put yourself on a one-way track to loneliness and regret in
    your later years.  Maybe you were just in a particularly sad or
    bitter mood when you wrote your note, and I'm taking it too seriously,
    but I don't think so.
    
    Steve

    re .5, .9
    
    I'm in the same boat.  If a relationship is going to get physical,
    then it happens real quick and (almost) without thought on my part.
    Unfortunately, at that time I've barely gotten to know the woman.
    
    The few times that I would have liked to (and tried) move a friendship
    to something more, the woman has let me know that she is not
    interested in that happenning.  I value my friends enough so that
    I don't try beyond that point, I just enjoy the friendship that
    we have.  Of course, the desire/feelings tends to remain for a while.
    
    Rich

    Well, those who know me _do_ insist I'm weird...
    
    My experiences are basically those of .0.  I was raised by a church
    going mother, who somehow, dispite all my effort, managed to instill
    in me a lot of the '50's era male/female behavior patterns.  It
    took me a while to notice the effect as described in .o.  Then I
    went to the opposit extreme (for me) which seems to be the concensus
    opinion in this note.  While it was fun, it was also quickly boring
    and usually unsatisfying.  Phase three was to force maturity on
    myself, learn to moderate the interaction and practice patience;
    lost a lot of potential partners, but it balanced out over time.
    
    Then I got married, making the whole thing mote :}) .
    
    The solution I found was to be just that much more selective, with
    weekends off for animalistic behavior.  Being supposedly a mature
    adult, the down times did not matter, right ?
    
    Dwight

	On initially friends vs lovers seeming to remain that way:

	One major risk of turning a friend into a lover is also the risk of
	a "long term" loss: could you go back to being friends after your
	relationship ends?  This can be enough to dissuade some people from
	trying - or accepting it if offered?  (or hinted at? :-)
		-hh

    re .10
    
    *** GO FOR IT ***
    
    Someone who doesn't gladden your heart will never
    be enough for your body.
    
    I went thru this with a lady several years ago. I was
    afraid of losing her friendship. Now she's somebody
    elses wife, the mother of his children. We've lost
    touch, and I still kick myself. I'll never know, and
    it hurts.

    re.10   Sandie,
                   I just want to say that I feel for you and having
                   been through the same kind of a separation (divorce)
                   want to share with you that forgiveness can go a
                   long way in healing a broken heart and soul.  I'm
                   not sure if you've forgiven him yet or not but I
                   just know that it can be a heavy burden to carry
                   around all the time.  Commiting yourself completely
                   to someone is "love" (at least it's my definition)
                   and I truly believe that it can be beautiful if 
                   both people have the same commitment.  I just hope
                   that you don't deprive yourself of the possibility
                   of that experience.
                                      
                                                    Ken

    Re: .14
    
    I have ALWAYS wanted to remain friends with ex-lovers (no matter
    what the reason for becoming an ex- was), since they had ALWAYS
    been a friend before they were a lover.  However, only one man was
    able to cope with that kind of relationship again, and he happened
    to be European.
    
    Before I get bashed, I am not saying ALL American men, I am saying
    that the American men that have been a significant part of my life
    have not been able to handle going from friend to lover to friend.
    My European friend to lover to friend could deal with it.
    
    I never spoke to my European friend about this, but is it possible
    that there is something in the American culture that prohibits (at
    least the 457 American males that I have "known") from being able
    to do this?

       
        I believe that good communication is the key right from the
    start, that way you both know what type of relationship each
    other would like, and if it sounds compatible go for it, if not
    just chalk it up as another growing experience.
    
      RE: .5    What seems to happen from my observations is that the
                best relationships have good communication between both
                people, i.e. friends.  We always seem to pick lovers
                that we can't communicate with, and we never seem to
                let our friends (who we communicate with so well) become
                lovers.  How ironic!
    
      I am fortunate to still be very good friends with all of my ex's,
      but you have to have a positive attitude to be able to do that.
      You have to remember that you were good friends, it didn't work
      out beyond that (probably for the best), but you are still friends
      just the same.  I imagine it is difficult to do this in some cases,
      especially if trust is abused or there is deceit.
    
                   Just some thoughts.
    
                                        Mark
    

    re .0:
    
    I think there are two questions here: 1) the speed or deliberation
    at which one decides to initiate intimacy; 2) the reaction to a
    negative response to sexual advance(s).
    
    1) Let's assume that you both, you and the lady, would eventually come
    to the same conclusion, that you wish to become intimate.  Then,
    I think it's a matter of how people arrive at a decision. 

    Let me guess that you are a rational person, relying heavily on the
    "head", the intellect while the lady relies on the intuitive,
    is "in touch with her feelings", plays it from the heart.  
    
    So, what happens is that while you are building "supporting evidence"
    for your assumptions, she has arrived at a decision, perhaps throwing
    a good deal onto the "risk" pile.
    
    She has found you interesting and attractive and makes an advance.
    How do you respond?  The answer to this is critical to whether the
    lady will "wait you out".  Do you make her feel that her asking
    was inappropriate?  (after all no one could come to an important
    conclusion like that without additional supporting evidence) or
    do you let her know that you need time to work things through in
    your mind, that while you find her attractive your intuitive has 
    not always borne out?  
    
    2) It was pointed out in the Mennotes file that women are not very
    receptive to No as an answer, that they react badly.  I think this
    is probably true as we are only recently learning how to "make the
    first move" and are still working out some of the rough edges there...

    If you're interested, try not to be judgemental and simply ask for
    additional time.
    
    Marge
    
    

    re .19 thank you CSSE::MARGE!
    

    re .20:
    
    anytime, Samurai... glad to put some of my "scars" to use...
    
    :^)
    Grins

     Lenny, thanks for bringing up this topic as it caused me do some serious 
     thinking about my own actions.
  
     I've not been single that long but I find it refreshing to meet a man who 
     is not "pushy" about being intimate on the first few dates.  However if 
     after several dates, no attempt in that direction was made I think I'd 
     begin to wonder what's "wrong" with me (my insecurities coming out again).
     Then I'd begin to wonder what's "wrong" with him.  I think the women 
     growing up in my era were programmed to believe that men were only after 
     "one thing" and expected to be "pounced on" immediatley.  Perhaps we now 
     need to change our thinking so that when we meet someone who is not into
     immediate pouncing, we respect that person's thinking.  I'm realizing 
     that things have changed since the time when I was dating before 
     and men (and women) are now a lot more cautious about when and who
     they become intimate with than in the sixties and seventies.

     After having had a recent experience where I "pushed" a friend
     into being more intimate than he was ready to be and losing a friend, I 
     hopefully have learned the lesson of controlling my emotions the hard way.
     I agree with Lee, a rejection by a friend hurts much more deeply than 
     from a stranger.   

     I'm wondering if you have been honest and open with the person involved 
     as to how you feel and where you want the relationship to 
     go or have you given mixed messages?  I think you'll find that women
     have same needs for intimacy as men and perhaps we have become more
     open about our needs, what you might consider "pushy".  Perhaps the
     person involve was ready for intimacy sooner than you were and 
     took your delay as a rejection. 

        Wendy

     

    Wendy, thank you for a most interesting and introspective reply.
    Yes I think it may be obvious to most that times have changed. The
    last time I was single, in any sense of the word, was when I was
    21. Now I'm 33 and single again, and I find out that all the "rules"
    have changed. 
    
    Part due to health considerations. But also I believe ... part due
    to the fact that those of us who lived thru the '60s and '70s have
    become turned off to the notion of "motion without emotion"...if
    you will....... 
    
    And it is a fallacy that only men use women. Women use men too.
    Why don't we simply say that human nature being what it is, people
    do have a tendency to a certain amount of self-centerness. So people
    do on occasion use other people. 
    
    And even though the male myth still is in high gear (i.e. Men never
    cry) .... it is true that men can feel pain in equal amounts ..
    proportionate to the emotional damage done and individual evolution.
    
    I find that the only way to dispell these "curtains" that seem to
    form from time to time, is through open and honest communication.
    
    We're also (I think) the generational group with the largest incidence
    of divorce. So alot of people we meet are carrying the scars of
    a failed marriage. This also makes anyone "gun shy" .... one way
    or the other.
    
    Samurai Writer                                              
    

    I've been pondering the question in .0 for a bit and am finding
    it a little difficult to relate with, probably due to the fact that
    I guess I don't concentrate so much on the number of times I see
    a person, but rather to the intuitive and emotional response in me 
    when I am with that person. Twice in my dating life I have engaged
    in premature intimacy, gauging by your implied standard, because
    it seemed appropriate and seemed worth the risk, particularly if
    there was a mutual reinforcement of good bonding potential. Oddly
    enough, if the risk turned into an unpleasant experience for either
    one of us, I found it difficult to continue pursuing the possibility
    of a romantic relationship and rather stressed the potential of
    a nice, comfortable friendship which seems contrary to the kind of
    person which you seem to be talking about. In my case, this probably
    has something to do with a deep seeded sense of failing at being
    sexually satisfying to my partner....(yikes, I can't believe I'm 
    admitting this!), but still desiring to enjoy the qualities of the
    person which made them attractive to me in the first place.
    
    And the converse is true, I could date someone for months and if
    I simply don't find the person turning on that proper switch it
    simply won't ever happen regardless of anything; and I do my best
    to make that clearly understood. 
    
    Dating is a delicate balance these days, in which both men and women
    choose to take or not take the initiative. Rejection is at stake
    for both. If she is the kind of person I am, who relies
    on intuitive risk taking and has made advances that are not eliciting
    "her" expected response let her know why. Don't compromise yourself
    if it doesn't feel right. Her response will let you know how much
    you've really lost...or gained. If you've told her where you're
    coming from and she losses interest...then just what have you lost.
    As for trust, it can't be achieved without some form of clear 
    communication, which is perhaps better started early on in those first 
    few dates. The definition and motivation for "intimacy" can be as 
    varied as the number of people you meet in your life. It strikes me 
    that understanding what is driving the two people involved supersedes 
    the need to keep track of how many times you see each other.
    
    Ciao!  
    
    Ann
    
    
    
    

    hi lenny!
    
    i find your attitude quite refreshing.  it has nothing to do with
    morals... simply more meaningful sex! 
    
    (my husband as you know, did not subscribe to this theory... )
    
    see you soon?
    jacki