Conference quark::human_relations-v1

        <<< QUARK::DISK$QUARK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMAN_RELATIONS.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'? >-
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Note 326.1                      deccies at lunch                          1 of 4
QUARK::LIONEL "We all live in a yellow subroutine"   22 lines  23-JUN-1987 12:56
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    I doubt it has anything to do with socialism or communism.  It's
    a matter of convenience, and to these people, the few bucks either
    way don't matter.  To someone for whom money is tight, it is
    a big deal, and rightly so.  I see the same situation quite often,
    and get annoyed at it too.  It also bothers me to see small tips
    left.
    
    Also, some people indeed don't add up in their mind properly what
    they've spent, and forget tax or tip.
    
    Like you, I often find myself coughing up extra money to cover the
    tip.  Sometimes if someone has left early, I'll ask them for the
    balance later.  I've never had a problem with this.  But I'm happy
    to say that in the last couple of years, this has become an
    increasingly rare problem.
    
    This problem is hardly restricted to DEC people - I've seen
    gripes about it in various advice columns.  The advice is always
    to agree beforehand how you're going to pay, though in reality I
    rarely see this happen.

    					Steve
    

        <<< QUARK::DISK$QUARK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMAN_RELATIONS.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'? >-
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Note 326.2                      deccies at lunch                          2 of 4
CREDIT::RANDALL "I'm no lady"                        25 lines  23-JUN-1987 13:01
                     -< yeah, but what do we do about it? >-
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    You're not crazy.
    
    They're lying.
    
    They're inconsiderate scum.
    
    And you should have heard the things I got called (cheap was the least
    of it) the one time I tried to point out that my chicken fingers and
    coffee cost a lot less than another person's two glasses of wine,
    shrimp newburg, and chocolate cake.  Like about half.  H***, I didn't
    have the money to help her pay for her drinks! (A mutual friend told me
    later that *she* didn't have enough money either, she was counting on
    the habits you describe.) 
    
    This was, by the way, an entirely female group but they were all
    DECcies. 
    
    I chickened out.  I don't go out to lunch any more unless I know I've
    got enough to help pay for everybody else's lunch -- I say I have a
    meeting or something. 

    And the people around here wonder why the secretaries never join
    us for lunch!
    
    --bonnie
    

        <<< QUARK::DISK$QUARK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMAN_RELATIONS.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'? >-
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Note 326.3                      deccies at lunch                          3 of 4
ROCKET::SLACK "Chess was invented by Women"          15 lines  23-JUN-1987 13:09
                        -< try living in that town.... >-
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    right on .0,.1,.2 
    
    I might add, try living in the town that these DECCIES eat and work
    in.  I do and you know what, when I show up in those restaurants
    after hours, the managers come up to me and politely ask me
    if it was possible for me to inform my coworkers about those habits.
    Talk about embarrassment....well, since I live with these people
    I don't mind 1) taking a calculator, pen/pencil and paper; and 2)
    quietly and politely ask the waiter/waitress to please monitor the bill...
    I found this helps set a peaceful pace...
    
    But, I might add, I was shocked to discover that DEC people are
    notorious.....or, that's the image the restaurant managers are
    spreading around town....
            
    

        <<< QUARK::DISK$QUARK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMAN_RELATIONS.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'? >-
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Note 326.4                      deccies at lunch                          4 of 4
CREDIT::RANDALL "I'm no lady"                         8 lines  23-JUN-1987 13:26
                 -< hide your badge when you're out to dinner >-
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    More than one restaurant in the Spit Brook Road area here in Nashua
    won't take a reservation for a large party if you tell them you're from
    DEC.  We're late, we often don't show up, we're loud, we're rude, and
    our tips would have been cheap 15 years ago. The people who work in
    these restaurants claim that people who work for Sanders or Grace don't
    get cheap nearly as often as DECcies. 
    
    --bonnie
    

    I hate this sort of thing too, it usually just causes embarassment all
    round. I can't claim to be totally blameless, but I would say that the
    following cover the situations I've been in
    
    (i) I forget a starter (usually) or get caught when the vegetable I
    didn't order turns out to be extra.
    
    (ii) I forget the sales/meal tax (an easy one for me - in Britain it
    is ILLEGAL to have a tax item that is not included in the price as it
    appears on the menu)
    
    But then I've gotten surprised when eating alone in a hotel and thought
    what I ordered was "about $12" only to discover that with the little
    extras, meals tax and mandatory service charge it is nearer $30.
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    PS since a tip is for service rendered can anyone explain to me why
    it is apparently usual to offer the same 15% tip to a waiter when you
    have the buffet and the only service the waiter performs is to bring
    a glass of water (which you didn't ask for and don't want) and the bill?

    (Hey, moderator, if you move all the previous replies to the earilier
    note, you might as well delete it and them, so we don't have to
    read this all twice over the network...)
    
    What I have usually done is have people pay for their own drinks
    (preferably as they are served them) and then divide the bill,
    assuming everyone ate more or less the same price food.  The problem
    of being the last one to leave and getting stuck covering the tip
    is very common!  If it is TOO common, then request separate checks
    (I know this drives waitresses (waitpersons?) crazy, but not as
    much as not getting a tip because the last person left didn't have
    that much money with him/her over what his/her meal and its tip
    cost).  I nearly always brown-bag my lunch, so I am not, perhaps,
    the best person to ask.  When I do go out, we usually all go to
    a Chinese place and order the same sorts of food, or order food
    family style and all eat it.

I imagine that I'm as guilty as anyone... but.

It would help if the idiot waitresses would give seperate checks when requested.
It may be a bit more work, but it's less hassle in the long run.  I'm tempted
to say 'no sepeerate checks, no tip'...

But then again, I abhor the practice of tipping, unless I've gotten *good*
service, so I'm a terrible tipper in any case.

Odd, A major source of my cash is paying for group lunches with my visa, and
pocketing the cash...  I usually come out ahead...  But perhaps my group is out
of the ordinary.  Why Ted Salem once left a waitress a 10$ tip not including the
rest of the tip, imagine that... 

Jim.

	A variation on the separate checks theme, mostly applicable only to
	groups who often eat together and split the bill:  If you're the only 
	one who seems to be ordering something far below the "group norm" 
	price, YOU ask for a separate check.  You can tell the others simply 
	that you're planning to order something inexpensive and don't want 
	to/can't afford to split the bill; or that you have to leave early. :-)

	Another thought would be to write down what the early departures have
	contributed to the fund: "Ok, <whoever>, that $10 from you; we'll let
	you know the balance you owe, or give you your change tomorrow".  Then
	follow through - especially with the change!    

		-hh

	Convenient rule of thumb: 
		tax + tip = ~20% of cost of the meal
	I've sometimes been surprised to find that the "cost" of my $10 meal 
	was actually $12!

    Re: .8
    
    Actually, in New Hampshire, tax and tip would be 22%.  Base the
    tip on the before-tax total.
    
    Jim Baranski may not like paying tips, but the waitrons (apparently
    their own term for waiter/waitress) are paid low salaries in the
    expectations of getting tips.  If you don't tip, you are really
    cutting their salary.  I will leave 10% (or rarely less) if I am
    unhappy with the service, I'll leave 20% if the waitron has gone
    above and beyond the call of duty.  (This sometimes happens when
    I'm dining with my son, and we get special services.)  I'll NEVER
    omit the tip entirely - that sends a different message.
    
    Also, Jim, I don't think it's polite to call the waitresses "idiots".
    They are, for the most part, hard-working and underpaid, and must
    face all sorts of abuse from customers and employers.  I doubt you'd
    do as well as many of them.  Yes, I've seen my share of bad service,
    but it's often due to things out of the waitress's control (slow
    kitchen, insufficient staff, etc.)
    
    I think Helen's idea of asking for a separate check is a good one,
    and that should work in most cases.  Usually they don't care to
    make out two dozen separate checks, but two or three shouldn't matter.
    
    Because I am concerned about this problem, I tend to volunteer to
    collect the money, and I make very sure that enough is collected
    to ensure full payment plus a reasonable tip.
    
    					Steve

    Are you under any legal obligation to pay the entire check if your
    party leaves before the check arrives?
    
    Edd
    

    Re: .10
    
    I'm afraid so.  But please also realize that in almost every
    restaurant, if you stiff the waitress, the money comes out of
    HER paycheck.  (Substitute waiter and HIS as appropriate.)
    
    					Steve

    re: .11
    
    Let me get this straight... (mind you, I realize the service
    personel will get stuck with the bill of a C&S. I ask only from
    the *legal* perspective, not moral or ethical.)
    
    I am responsible for food I didn't order?
    
    Whilst I can quote no law or precedent, I find it hard to believe
    that a food/beverage serving establishment can impose this respon-
    sibility on anyone. 
    
    If I was the last one in the entire restaurant/bar at closing time
    is it my responsibility to see that they cash out correctly and
    to make up any discrepancies?
    
    Edd 
    

    Re: .12
    
    I am not certain of this, but it is what I'd expect.  When you are
    part of a group, each of you is equally responsible for the entire
    bill.  This concept applies to many things in life.  It would
    be different if you got separate checks, which is also why you're
    not responsible for everyone else in the bar.
    					Steve

    We have the same problem here...
    
    We go out for luncheons and dinners for people's birthdays; it's
    an excuse to go out and have fun.
    
    Several times, we have gotten shafted by people who leave early,
    or people who stiff the check by leaving less than their share or
    even less than what they ordered.
    
    Typically, no one will admit that they were gypping us; we just
    find out who it is.  Those people somehow mysteriously get dropped
    from the distribution list until they realize that we don't feel
    like treating them to lunch or dinner all the time.
    
    RE: .0
    
    Where do you work? (Send mail, don't broadcast this).  I want to
    know if your situation is the one that I heard about in ___.
    
    
    The Mad CHinaman
    

I once attended a New Year's Eve dinner with a dozen or so people
and when the bill came, a lady friend of one of the attendees pulled
out a calculator and figured to the penny what everyone owed!

I agree, i hate the whole bill paying process when in a group.  For the
waitresses (waiters) sake, they should write separate checks for everyone - 
that is, if they expect a fair tip.  People are generally less likely
to tip honestly when all the money is pooled.  I feel bad when the bill
comes to a large sum and the effective tip figures to 1 or 2 percent of the
total after taxes, especially when the waitress was good and she had to deal 
with a rowdy bunch.

P.S.  I don't believe that this problem in only related to the Deccie
      crowd.

					-jim-

        The old adage that you should never ascribe to malice what can
        be readily explained by ignorance or stupidity applies here
        especially well. People often don't think things out and can be
        pretty far off in their estimates of costs of things. 
        
        Although I don't make it as much of a habit as Steve Lionel does
        to collect the money, I do make it a point to find out what the
        total collected is and compare it to the bill before people
        leave the table. If someone leaves early, I try to make sure
        that we agree to even things up when we get back to work.
        
        There are two reasons that I try to be careful about this. the
        first is that I want to make sure that the waitron (if that's
        the term) doesn't get stiffed. Second is that it has happened
        more than once (although not too often) that I find that I'm the
        one (or one of the ones) who lost track of the extra cost of the
        appetizer. If you know you're capable of screwing up, you have a
        responsibility to see that you don't.
        
        Getting back to motives, when the group is of the same basic
        income levels it is often the case that it is easier and less
        hassle to just divide the check evenly and assume it will all
        work out in the end. In my group people end up loaning lunch
        money to each other moderately frequently and we almost always
        divide the check evenly. When somebody orders an extra expensive
        item they'll often pay for it up front and then we divide the
        rest. Similarly if there is someone who ordered very little
        we'll do them off the top. It is my impression that the
        inequities are shared fairly evenly.
        
        On the other hand when one person has a decidedly different
        income, there can be pressure on them, or at least perceieved
        pressure on them, to act just like everyone else when than can
        ill afford it. (As the sole bread winner for a family of 5
        surrounded by dual-income-no-kids and singles I can relate to
        this a lot.) In that case, I've found that if you are up front
        about it--"My budget's a little tight, should I get a separate
        check?"--people will be pretty co�perative.
        
        I think a lot of the hassle that develops over this sort of
        thing comes from people taking and giving unnecessary offense.
        Many of us can't do a simple 1.22 * X calculation in our heads
        too well, or forget about the tip or tax or appetizer or extra
        drink or don't divide by 7 well. This means that mistakes
        happen. If you allow yourself to mistake an accident for an
        affront you are liable to react in a way that in turn gives
        offense.... 
        
        JimB.

    Yeah, I've got to agree with .17.  It's rather ignorant not contribute
    enough to cover your portion of the bill, but it seems equally silly
    to sit there and feel gyped.  
    
    I also have to take exception to the suggestion that DIGITAL
    employess are he worst offenders.  Let's face it, in New England,
    the majority of work luches are bound to be DIGITAL employees,
    just by their sheer numbers.
    
    Several suggestions -- all which have worked for me in the past.
    
    When somebody flips the money down and has to leave early.  Do as
    previously suggested:  catch up with them later.  
    
    If everyone is still at the table, contribute your fair share, and
    say firmly, "look, we're short."  Identify the guilty parties and
    tell them you'll loan them the money if they need it.  If you feel
    the tip is shy, SAY SO! 
   
    In the case that your meal is markedly less expensive, and the
    concensus is to split the bill equally, and you don't like that,
    then explain your situation and pay your fair share.  But really,
    if it's only a couple of dollars, its hardly worth arguing about.
    Consider it as party of the price of their company.
    AND, (here's the fun part) next time you go out with that group,
    order the lobster salad, glass of chardonnay, and desert!!!  

    bon appetit
    

> But really, if it's only a couple of dollars, its hardly worth arguing about.

/Flame=moderate

Excuse me, but to some people on tight budgets a couple of dollars IS
significant!  And if it so insignficant to you, the next time you are
in a group YOU leave the extra bucks for person A.  After all, you can
consider it a fair price for THEIR company.
/Flame off

-Joe

    A couple of notes mention equal sharing for lunch among a group with
    "approximately equal income."  Certainly this is the principal in
    operation when a bunch of engineers and writers from around my group go
    to lunch.  The average writer is making some less than the average
    engineer, but it's close enough for $5-$10 worth of Chinese food
    not to be a problem.  It's a working hypothesis that makes dividing
    up the lunch tab a lot more pleasant.
    
    The trouble is, we assume that our secretaries, testing people, and
    other support people are making "appproximately" the same amount as we
    are, just because they work for DEC the same as we do and they must be
    geting paid close to the same amount we are.  This is so untrue as to
    be mind-boggling.  In some groups, the secretary makes a *third* of
    what the average developer makes; they seldom get more than half.
    
    --bonnie

    My opinion is that engineers are a lot more materialistic than
    "normal" people.
    
    Typical scene after dinner when out with a group of non-engineers:
    Check comes. One person picks it up. "I'll get it". Another person:
    "No please, it's my treat". First person: "No, I insist". Other
    person: "OK. At least let me pay the tip."...
    
    Typical scene after dinner with a group of DEC engineers: Check
    comes. One person picks it up and gets out his calculator. "You
    owe $8.27. You owe $9.84. You owe..." Second person: "Let me see
    that... No, I only owe $7.79". First person: "But you ate some of the
    appetizer, so you should contribute to that...".  Second person:
    "I only ate 1 Peking ravioli, so I added in 1/6 the cost of the
    appetizer...". First person: "But..." 
        
    The second scene annoys the hell out of me, especially when you
    are with a group of engineers earning $40k - $50k, mostly single
    people or dual-income couples. 
        
    	- Rich

RE: .9

I didn't exactly call all waitrons idoits; I still think that waitrons who
will not give seperate checks are idiots.

I know that tips are considered part of their pay.  That is why I do tip; but I
don't like it.  I don't like the practice of the restaurants counting the tips
as part of the waitrons pay even more.  Manditory Gratuity is a contradiction.
That is why, although I have held almost every low paying scum job in the
restaurant business, I still refuse to consider counting tips as manditory, or
part of wages.  If the wage is too low, don't take the job.  If enouigh people
do that, they will raise the pay. 

However, when I am given good or better service, I make sure that the people
serving me know from me personally, that I enjoyed my dinner/whatnot, and that
means more to me, no matter which end I'm on. 

As far as check dividing goes, I'll either ignore it, insist on the
shortchangers paying up, or have the lobster on them next time (keep the
evidence to back you up for next time), depending on the people involved.
I won't just sit and stew about it! 

If it's just a couple of people, I'm more likely to pay the whole bill some
of the times then split it, but for a group lunch of 20 people???

Jim.

    I dont worry about fractional amounts of money. I always round up
    to the next $ and leave a 20% tip provided the serice was ok.
    People that worry about twenty cents are plain cheap.
    
    I have witnessed people haggeling about a less than $1 difference
    many time and to speed things up I will often say something to
    the effect" I dident realize you were having such a hard time
    I'll make up the difference for you." Never fails they pay their part.
    
    BTW- I'm an engineer making less than some of the figures given
    here. One income and all of the bills+ of the average family
    including house payment.
                                       
    -j
    
    

	For a large group (10 or >) some groups seem to do the
	following:

	. Get a copy of the menu and each person orders and pays
	  in advance. The order may be given in advance to the 
	  restuarant to get it started. No change of mind. BTW
	  tax and tip are also included (some place automatically
	  add the tip as a service charge - is this legal? )

	. Drinks are ordered at the place and paid for in cash
	  immediately i.e no tab. Avoid places that for some
	  reason will not do this. The drinks do not become
	  part of the final checks.

	Hope this helps. At least it is somewhat sane.

    
    Here's a solution that our secretary has come up with.  When
    the group goes out to lunch everyone is given a slip to fill
    out (once we are at the restaurant)....you sign your name,
    price of meal (and what it is, for those who cheat), an 
    additional charge of $2 for tax and tip, total it up and pass
    it in....works every time.  Actually it's a shame the CYA (cover
    your ass) plan has to be used.
    
    And for all you disbelievers, yes DECies do have a reputation
    for being *stingy*.
                                 
    jd/
    

RE: .25
>>>        And for all you disbelievers, yes DECies do have a reputation
>>>    for being *stingy*.

    As a former waiter at a Chinese restaurant (where I didn't speak
    Chinese but everyone did), I know what it's like to get a bad tip
    after having broken my back to provide good service.
    
    I always leave a good tip for good service so it bugs me when some
    people leave less than their share (forgetting the share of the
    guests-of-honor).  I have also gotten stuck with paying up to twice
    my share of the check because I was the one who arranged a luncheon
    (many times) and the bill came up short.  This sort of situation
    dampens people's desire to go out and have fun with other people.
    
    Paying cash for drinks is okay; I like that.  What can you do about
    the people who pay less than the price of their own meal?
    

    
    re .-*
    
    *US* Deccies may have a reputation for being stingy - over here
    in the UK we do not. Neither do we have the problem that you've
    all been discussing -everybody puts in their fair share, tip as
    well (and over here, the service charge is not mandatory).
    
    Of course, the cause of the problem was defined back in 1982:
    
    (long quote follows - skip if you're busy!)
    
    
    
    " Just a Einstein observed that time was not an absolute, but depended
    on the observer's movement in space, and that space was not an
    absolute, but depended on the observer's movement in time, so it
    is now realized that numbers are not absolute, but depend on the
    observer's movement in restaurants.
    
    The first non-absolute number is the number of people for whom the
    table is reserved. This will vary during the course of the first
    three telephone calls to the restaurant, and them bear no apparent
    relation to the number of people who actually turn up, ot to the
    number of people who subsequently join them after the
    show/match/party/gig, or to the number of people who leave when
    they see who else has turned up.
    
    The second non-absolute number is the given time of arrival, which
    is now known to be one of those most bizarre of mathematical concepts,
    a recipriversexclusion, a number whose existence can only be defined
    as being anything other that itself. In other words, the given time
    of arrival is the one momement of time at which it is impossible
    that any member of the party will arrive.
    
    The third and most mysterious peice of non-absoluteness of all lies
    in the relationship between the number of items on the bill, the
    cost of each item, the number of people at the table, and what they
    are each prepared to pay for. (The number of people who have actually
    bought any money is only a sub-phenomenon in this field.)
    
    The baffling discrepancies which used to occur at this point remained
    uninvestigasted for centuries simply because no one took them
    seriously. they were at the time put down to such things as politeness,
    rudeness, meanness, flashness, tiredness, emotionality, or the lateness
    of the hour, and completely forgotten about on the following morning.
    They were never tested under laboratory conditions, of course, because
    they never occured in laboratories - not in reputable labs at least.
    
    And so it was only with the advent of pocket computers that the
    startling truth finally became apparent, and it was this:
    
    Numbers written on restaurant bills within the confines of restaurants
    do not follow the same mathematical laws as numbers written on any
    other peices of paper in any other parts of the Universe."
    
    :-) :-)
    
    Quoted, without permission and with small omissions, from 'Life,
    the universe and everything' , C Douglas Adams 1982
    
    
    Dave
    
    
    

    
    	I am one of the aforementioned cheap people.  I do not want
    	to pay more than is absolutely necessary, although I have never
    	shortchanged the collector for my fair share.
    
    	I am an engineer (software engineer) who does not earn a salary
    	like those quoted.  (Where do you work, anyway...).  I generally
    	brown-bag my lunch for financial reasons.  Sometimes I resent
    	the luncheon scene entirely because of the financial strain
    	it places on my budget.  It costs me a buck or two to bring
    	in a few tuna sandwiches and some fruit, but up to $10 to go
    	out to lunch.  I eat out at luncheons more than I do with my
    	family!  But if you refuse to participate in a few lucheons
    	you are labeled as a cold person with no spirit or comraderie.

    	How can some of these people buy their lunch every day!  Don't
    	ask me to cover for shortchangers!
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    RE: .28
    
    How often do you guys go out for luncheons?  We go out like once
    a month for someone's birthday (our excuse for going out).
    
    Cheap is "not paying your fair share", whether it be a equally-shared
    check or pay-as-you-order.  Cheap is "not tipping" for good service,
    because the waiter/waitress is working hard to earn a living. Cheap
    is taking someone else's money out of the pot (and keeping it yourself)
    because it might make the tip too big (heaven forbid the
    waiter/waitress should make a better-than-normal tip).  Cheap is
    making other people shell out more money because you decided to
    have a free meal on everyone else.
    
    RE: .28.
    
    If none of the above apply to you, then you are not cheap. You sure
    didn't sound like it.
    
    Going out once in a while makes it a treat.  All the time...?
    
    We have people here who brown-bag it to the shopping malls, where
    we sometimes have lunch.  That allows us to have their company,
    and they don't have to spend alot for lunch.
    
    
    The Mad Chinaman   O _
    			^
    
    because we tell them to bring their lunches along.

    We try to approximate what each person should pay, but not be picky
    down to the last penny.  We figure that it all evens out in the
    end.  This is made considerably easier in that there are four of
    us who go out as a group.  We don't go out but maybe once a week.
    
    As for the tip.  If the waiter/waitress is not supplying above average
    service, then they are not deserving of an above average tip.  This
    is not because I am cheap, it is because I view the tip as an
    indication of the level of service I received at the restaurant.
     It is unfortunate that I am expected to pay directly towards this
    persons salary in the first place.  The restaurant should pay a
    fair living wage.  This would eliminate alot of the problems with
    tax reporting as well.  How many waiters/waitresses really report
    all of their earnings to the IRS.  Not many, I venture to guess.
    

    Re: .30
    
    Waiters and waitresses who get tips at all are automatically taxed
    on 8% of the total checks they service, under the assumption that
    they make at least that much in tips.  It doesn't matter if they
    actually get tipped 8% or not.
    
    I have a friend who works part-time as a waitress.  She tells me
    that, because of the low base pay and the tax, she has actually
    wound up being asked to PAY extra instead of getting any paycheck
    at all.  And the tips aren't always what people think they are.
    
    By all means, tip according to service provided.  But if the service
    is acceptable, tip the standard 15%.  Don't hurt these people who
    work so hard and earn so little.
    					Steve

    Re/ .32:
    
    In most places in Europe, tips are included in the bill, usually
    indicated by the notice "Service compris" on the menu or on the
    bill.  It's not that there's no tipping.
    
    Note also that the waiter or waitress is NOT responsible for:
    
    	- the quality of the food
    	- how quickly the food arrives
    
    You should not penalize the waiter or waitress if you have complaints
    with either of the above.

    re .33:
    
    Yup, and that's the most frustating things about getting bad service in
    Euorpe. You have no means to retaliate. 
    
    	Jon

RE: .-1

Ah,  not so!  You can refuse to accept the service!  You can choose to
leave at any point and make it clear to the waiter/manager that you find 
the service unacceptable and DO THIS WITH AN AUDIENCE!  (I have found it 
very effective on the odd occassion,  and I haven't needed to flame, 
either. ^-)!)  After that,  you just don't patronise the place again.

Not all restaurents have "service included".  You should always ascertain 
that on entry - something that most of us do in Europe.

    re .36:
    
    I agree. But when one doesn't speak the language, one is at a
    disadvantage, especially when one wants to sound like a concerned
    customer, not an obnoxious tourist. For us Yanks, there's another
    problem that American service is quite rushed compared to the rest of
    the world. I, for one, spend a lot of time agonizing and wondering if
    it's just me, or if the service is *really* bad. Especially if I'm in a
    hurry or I've allocated so much time (even allowing for European
    service) for a meal and that time is drawing nigh. The dirty looks I've
    gotten just for flagging down the waiter for the check... 
    
    There's a lot less wear and tear on the soul to just pay the bill. It's
    only money. 

    	Jon

    re .37  Prompt presentation of the bill is part of courteous
    service - the waiter should be aware that you may be short
    of time. I'd count it as a factor determining the tip.

    re .38:
    
    Except that the waiter determines the tip, not you.
    
    	Jon

    1) re: Its not the wait<person> fault ... etc
    2) re: Tips usually 'servis compris'
    
    1) If the food arrives at bad intervals; is not prepared "close"
    to the instructions given to the wait<person> ; the wait<person> is rude;
    ignores 'calls' for additional service (wine list, coffee, desert
    list, etc); doesn't replace dropped silver; the food IS prepared
    bad; ignores requests to leave certain articles of ALLERGIC foods
    from salas; doesn't describe the dishes accurately; etc.
    
    When I'm paying a 15% premium on everything I eat TO the wait<person>
    (btw- in many restaurants the Wait<person> MUST share tips with the
    kitchen staff); then in effect THAT person is working for me.
    
    If , and whenever , I leave NO TIP, I usually ask to see the manager
    (or at least tell the cashier about the poor service), and how
    disapointed I was in the restaurants inability to get good help.
    
    *sometimes* in doing this, I learn that there are extenuatinmg
    circumstances beyond the wait<persons> control, and that they are
    in effect providing exemplary service UNDER THE circumstances (double
    shifts due to illnesses, convention in a town with very few
    restaurants, restaurant just opened for the day, etc.).
    
    Under NO circumstances do I ever leave $.02 (2 cents) on the table.
    Either its worth between 5% to 20% or its not (30% for some places).
    
    In one particular restaurant in Bar Harbor, there is ONE open at
    5:30 am in lat fall; breakfast costs between $2.00 and $3.50. Its
    tough just leaving $.45 for OUTSTANDINGly good service !
    
    However, in some restaurants where they "expect" their 15%, and provide
    perfunctory service, I feel no remorse at leaving $.25 per person.
    
    .bob.
    
    It may be "customary" to leave 15% no matter what, but the only
    way to change customs are to change peoples habits.
    
    

    Also, as your part of the courtesy, you ought to let a
    wait-person know when you are short of time.  Most times
    when I do this, I get prompt service.  It's not fair to
    count it as a tipping factor unless the server knows
    you need quicker than usual service.  In some places,
    too prompt presentation of the bill can be seen as an
    attempt to oust you from your table sooner than you
    would wish.
    
    --Louise

    Sort of re: .40 --
    
    I used to wait tables at Sambo's (remember them?) for breakfast 
    shift -- fending off drunken truck drivers was the least of our 
    problems. 
    
    One of the things I learned is that the amount of work the waitress has
    to go to when serving breakfast is no less, and often more, than for
    serving dinner.  She has to make a trip for coffee, a trip to take the
    order, a trip for the juice and grapefruit or whatever, a couple of
    trips to refill the coffee, a trip to bring the food, half the time
    another trip to bring syrup or butter or something that the kitchen
    forgot to put on the tray, etc. etc.  But not only are tips close
    to nonexistent, the people working the dinner shift ordinarily get
    paid more in base wages!  (When I was working there, the legal minimum
    wage was $1.60 per hour; the servers on the evening shift got $1.20,
    the waitresses on breakfast shift got $0.95.)
    
    Note that I'm saying waitress on purpose; I've never seen a man working
    breakfast shift at any restaurant I've been to. 
    
    Ever since then, I never leave a tip of less than $1, even when
    I get the $1.29 breakfast special at Friendly's.  
    
    --bonnie

    re .40:
    
    Well then, it's a pity you weren't working breakfast shift when I was.
    I bussed tables and would have given my eyeteeth to be a waiter. I
    hated it, and managed to find a job as a data librarian. 
    
    	Jon

    re:42
    
    I agree about leaving a certain minimum tip (IF the service is good),
    even if it is far above the 10-15% for a real low-cost meal.
    
    When my children were very young, when we went out to eat, the meal
    was frequently *very* inexpensive, even in those days.  For example,
    the girls would split one grilled cheese sandwich @ maybe 65 cents.
    Or we could all share a small plain pizza that cost $1.00.  We did
    not make a big mess, but we *did* take up a table that might have
    otherwise produced a much larger total bill.  And the waitperson
    worked just as hard -- sometimes harder -- serving us.  In those
    cases, I always left a very generous tip, sometimes 50-100% of
    the bill.  And that was in the days when I was a student while
    supporting a family.  Now it is not a problem:  the girls eat more
    than I do, and the normal percentage is *quite* adequate!
    
    	Penelope

    There is often a large group in my department that lunches together.
    We have come up with at least a partial solution to the problem...
    
    We don't worry so much about who had what meal (as we lunch together
    often enough to balance out somewhat), but we *DO* get a seperate
    bar bill!  We've found that there is far more unevenness is paying
    for someone elses' drinks than food.
    
    I, personally, do not happen to have a problem saying, "Here's $5...
    I only had a salad today."  
    
    BTW, how much one makes should not be the issue... taking advantage
    is.
    
    
    jacki
    

    
    re: 45
    good stuff...
    and i basically agree with you...i don't mind throwing in an extra
    few $$$ to be sure the waitress/waiter recieves an acceptable (by
    my standards?) tip.
    
    but....how much one makes is indeed an issue...
    
    a 30k tech
    a 40k manager
    a 40k engineer
    a 35k programmer.......it might not matter to them (might not!)
    
    but when you throw in a 17k sec and/or an 18k operator....
    these people can be hurt (financially) by having to throw in an
    extra 2 or 3 or 5 bucks that they weren't counting on...
    
    i was an operator 7 years ago making 11k....
    and i was on a strict budget...
    	i had money allocated for food, day care (single parent) and
    gas and rent...
    	phone?...maybe...maybe not...
    	new shoes for the kids?...next week or next month...
    	
    	going to lunch with people making 2x my pay who ordered
    2x my meal and being expected to pay for part of their meal
    is ridiculous...
    	i wonder what they would say if i asked them to pay part of
    my rent?