Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I'm afraid I must disagree - ignoring deeply-stressful feelings
    such as this only makes it worse.  She should be helped to deal
    with the problem in a straightforward fashion.  Sometimes an
    independent counselor can be of assistance, one that is not
    emotionally tied to the problem.
    					Steve

On the other hand, Nov. '86 is not all that long ago. Perhaps she just needs
more time to get herself together. When my friend's mother died it was a year
before she returned to what I thought was her normal self.

Jenna

    I want to second the notion that she may simply need some more time.
    She has a perfectly valid reason to be unhappy, especially if she
    was close to her brother.

    As I recall from Kubler-Ross's writings, there are four stages of
    grief:

    denial    
    anger
    bargaining
    acceptance

    Working through all these stages usually takes at least a year,
    and two to three years to fully accept a death is not unusual.
    
    Blame is part of the cycle of coming out of the denial stage and into
    the anger stage.  It means she is accepting the reality of his death
    and is beginning to try to understand what it means to her.  The next
    stage is anger -- anger at him for leaving her, anger at herself for
    failing him, anger at God for letting him die, perhaps anger at other
    members of the family for not treating him right, etc. 
    
    It's very common for the grieving person to try to deny the anger she
    feels toward the loved one who has died, since our society has such a
    strong belief that one should not speak ill of the dead.  She may also
    fear that her anger means she didn't love her brother.  But the anger
    has to be accepted before the healing can continue. 
    
    The most important thing you can do is encourage her to accept those
    feelings. Give her a chance to talk about it.  And don't try to judge
    what she says.  She will probably say some things in her anger that are
    unfair to him, to you, to other people.  Listen, sympathize, and forget
    them.  Don't recall them later, after she's come to accept his death. 
    
    A good friend who is willing to listen can make all the difference in
    the world at this time.  The odds are that her family is too absorbed
    in coming to grips with thier own grief to be much help, and perhaps
    her friends are too busy trying to cheer her up to listen to her real
    emotions. 
    
    I'd have given almost anything to have someone talk to me after my
    grandfather died, but I had to do it alone because all my friends were
    too uncomfortable with the idea of death to be able to accept it. 
    
    --bonnie, in deepest sympathy

    
    She sounds like she might be into "self-blaming" or "God blaming".
    A recommend book on the subject is Harold S. Kushner's book:
    
    "When Bad Things Happen to Good People"
    
    It covers the blaming problems and also gives advise on how to help
    people who are going through grief.
    

    							MJC

    There is a DEC person whose husband was in a very serious car accident
    3 or so years ago.  He is brain damaged and will be for the rest of his
    life.  She is still dealing with all of this.  She has talked with
    others who have been in stressfull situations such as this trying
    to help herseld and trying to help the other person.  If your friend
    is interested in talking with this woman, please reply to this mail
    and I'll see that she gets the note.  One recent revelation is that
    this woman is career-minded but stood back somewhat so that her
    husband could make professional advancement.  She has 2 small children
    and is trying to bring them up alone.  In addition, she is trying
    to take care of her husband.  She met a woman who HAD a career and
    gave it ALL up to bring up her family and support her husband. 
    This woman discovered that she is terminally ill and is angry that
    she will never have the opportunity to pursue her interests.  They
    support each other through the angry times etc.  Sometimes a stranger
    in a similar situation can be effective.  My heart goes out to your
    friend.

   I would endorse the idea of a support group with professional guidance.
   In addition to churches and hospitals, you might check to see if
    there are any hospices in your area.  I cannot say enough about
    the support they give to families of the terminally ill... perhaps
    they can help to direct you.
    
    Sometimes nature will take its course and sometimes it needs a boost.
    
    Marge

    It is normal for people to grieve for a long time after the death
    of someone close.  A lot of people feel that it takes AT LEAST a
    year, because you have to get through all the holidays, birthdays,
    etc.
    
    I think the key thing to consider here is that your friend "blames
    herself."  Guilt is very common after the death of someone close
    like this, and it's a very damaging emotion.  Many people's lives
    get totally messed up because of guilt, not because of the death
    that precipitated it.  I think support groups can be very valuable
    in coping with guilt.  My father is president of a national
    organization called Parents of Murdered Children. (My brother was
    murdered in 1978.)  Both my parents have said that while they initially
    came to the group for support, they now feel that they are primarily
    helping others cope with more recent tragedies.  In the 9 years
    that they have been active with this group, they've met a lot of
    couples who have suffered the death of a child.  I think they would
    agree that from their experience, guilt is one of the most damaging
    repercussions of such a blow.
    
    Also, private or group therapy may be helpful.

        I respectfdully wish to disagree with 323.11. Counselling, be it
        from a psychologist, a preist, or a fellow sufferer, and support
        from a group, friends or a fellow suferer can be very important.
        I heartily recommend that your friend seek the help of someone
        who is a professional in the field rather than listening to me
        or to 323.11, neither of whom does this for a living.
        
        JimB. 

    I have to agree with Jim -- if your friend is really withdrawing,
    she should get professional help.  Depression can be a downward
    spiral, and although a listening friend is helpful, it probably
    wouldn't be enough.
    
    I lost a sibling in particularly tragic circumstances seven years
    ago, and it was at least three years before I was "normal" again.
    I had a full year of therapy with a pyschotherapist to enable me
    to deal with the anger, frustration, sadness, and hopelessness.
    
    It is important to remember that no one's grief is on a timetable
    -- bereavement that you may get over in six months may take much
    longer for someone else.  
    
    G
    

    Speaking from personal experience, no therapy helped me what so
    ever.  My father died when I was ten, I found him.  And my brother
    decided 10 years later to end it himself, I also found him.  I have
    5 other brothers and we, along with my mother never talk about either
    of them.  After finding my brother it was pretty tough, I went to
    two different pyschiatrist, therapist, I can not remember what their
    title was at that time, but found it hard to sit and listen to
    someone tell me that it will getter better in time and the stages
    I will be going thru.  I did not want to hear any of that... What
    I wanted to hear I will never, even after all these years (7 since
    my brother) I still doubt his death because it was a closed casket.
    
    Its not easy, never will be.  I don't think it gets better I just
    think that you go on, survival.  Myself and my 5 brothers all made
    an attempt because we all "felt guilty".  Not one of them has had
    any kind of professional help, we were just their when they needed
    them, no talking of course, we were just their to talk about anything
    else.  That was years ago and we are all mighty strong now.
    
    Some people need help and some people don't.  I wanted to be by
    myself constantly but I always needed to know that there would be
    someone their for me if I needed them and I think that's what 
    pulled me thru it all.  I did not want to talk but it meant a great
    deal to me to now that other people cared and if I wanted to talk
    they would listen.  And those are my friends who listen, not someone
    that I have payed to tell me something that I did not want to hear.

    
    Jude
    

	re. -1

	I agree with you concerning the psychiatrist role. My wife had
	a tough time after the birth of daughter where she went into a
	very severe depression (suicidal). We tried the "sit there and
	I'll listen" doctor which was absolutely no help at all. He gave
	her drugs and that was it.

	She then starting going to the group sessions run by the local
	county mental health society. They employed a psychologist who
	worked with group and use the "give and take" method of discussion.
	This was invaluable and my wife is now totally well. I think if
	this kind of help was essential and if it wasn't there she might
	be dead or committed somewhere with some doctor still listening
	to her.

	The group's positive re-inforcement and support of the other
	group members was essential. It worked for her, thank GOD.

    I feel very sorry for your friend, as I have been through this
    experience several times (my father, my mother 86, my sister this
    year).  o matter how often you go through it, the grief is always
    differen.  My father died when I was 13, and I didn't deal with
    that until I was 30.  I went to group therapy which was very good.
    However when my sister became terminally ill and only had a few
    months to live, I became a basketcase.  I had a very good friend
    who helped me tremendously by first listening to me, and then when
    they thought that I was wallowing in self pity they told me so.
    She told me to stop feeling sorry for myself, and to consider the
    effect that I was having on the other people around me.  Plus a
    whole lot of other stuff.  The result was I was SO angry with her
    that I did not talk to her for a couple of weeks, but when I calmed
    down I realized that I was feeling sorry for myself, because of
    what I had lost, feeling guilt because it wasn't me, and fear because
    it could happen to me.  I could never repay that friend for what
    she did, in making me face up to what I was doing.  It was brutal,
    but for me right.  I am fine now, and feel very close to my father,
    mother and sister.  I don't talk to them or anything, but I can
    think of happy times.
    

    
    I lost my younger Brother when I was seventeen (he was 15).
    That was in 1981, and I still doubt whether the scars have healed
    or will ever heal. I spent so long in the denial stage, I deprived
    myself the right to openly and honestly grieve that terrible loss.
    I felt I had to deny in order to hold the family together in the 
    year or two that followed. There is much to be gained by seeking
    help in this situation - but even in the best of situations the
    pain will subside slowly. My thoughts go out to everyone who has
    lived through the tragedy of loss.
    
    Tom

    My mother just phoned me and told me that a friend of mine was killed
    yesterday.  I went and got a paper and the truth is, she ran out
    in front of a truck on Rte. 128. - after her appointment with her
    psychiatrist.
    
    Talk about feeling empty.  I am just sitting here feeling so alone
    and lost.  
    
    Last year at this time another friend of mine was killed in an alcohol
    related car accident.
    
    Sorry, don't know what else to say or do right now.
    
    Carol
    
    
    
    

        Carol,
        
        I'm terribly sorry to hear about the loss of your friend(s). If
        there is anything that those of us who know you only through
        notes and the like can do beyond offering our condolances,
        please let us know. Who knows, maybe just knowing that your
        words touched us can help you to feel a little less alone and
        lost.
        
        To you and to the others in this discussion who've lost friends
        and loved ones I can only offer the advice that you not bottle
        up your feelings about it. I'm not saying that you have to let
        it all out here (although if that would help, go ahead), but at
        least in your own prvacy let it come out, cry over it and then
        try to remember all of the wonderful things about your loved one
        that can never be lost--the good that they did and were.
        
        When I was in college a very dear friend of mine was shot and
        killed for no discernable reason. The crime was never solved.
        Some 15 years later I named my second son for him, and on the
        second day that young Ian was home from the hospital, which was
        Christmas morning, I held my boy and wept for my lost friend--
        wept the first tears ever for him. And afterwards I remembered
        all the good, beautiful, and meaningful things that Ian had done
        in his life. I remembered the beauty of the music he played, the
        ways that he protested the draft and Vietnam and the way that he
        was always there to talk to.
        
        It didn't evaporate all the pain. It can't have--the tears have
        come again as I write this--but it did lift a terrible burden of
        unexpressed grief, and it did bring back the good that remained
        of Ian. It made him that much more real and reminded me that the
        world is really a better place for his having been in it two
        short decades. 
        
        JimB.

    	Thanks Jim.
    
    	The hardest thing is trying to deal with it here, at work. 
    	The wake is tonight and I don't know how I am going to get
    	through it.
    
    	I don't want to continue on and on about it, but thanks to
    	everyone.
    
    							Carol

{gently}

If I remember correctly, a wake is traditionally a celebration of the life of a
person, of what they were, and of what they are in your heart.  They still live
on, in your heart.  Keep them there. 

If you keep that in mind, I hope that you will find the wake something that you
would not want to miss.  It may be a painfull goodbye to a friend, but you may
come to value the moment.

Peace,
Jim Baranski 

    To all of you, who have shared feelings on this topic, thank you!
    Knowing that people all over the world can relate, eases the pain
    of feeling all alone.  If there is a lesson here to learn, I believe
    it is this:  Life is short, Life is fragile, and Life is precious,
    for once lost, it can never be returned.  Live life !!
    Next time you see someone who is near and dear to you, tell them
    how you feel.  It may be too late someday.
    
    Many thanks,
    
    Gene

                                                           
    minor digression:
    
    Chepachet, by the way, is in northwestern Rhode Island.
    
    DFW

    I have to say I wished I would have read this note a month ago.
    I lost a close cousin, on the USS Stark in May.  I had never
    even experienced a death before this.  And it wasn't a pleasant
    way to begin the journey.  I went through the stages and still
    feel I am going through them.  I hve questioned my faith over
    and over again.  I would stop by the cemetery once in a while
    and wonder as I looked down, if that's it, is he just lying
    there in a hole in the ground or has he really gone to heaven.
    
    We had a wake but it was a closed casket, and in the back of my
    mind I still think, how do we know it was really him, because
    the government tells us so?
    
    People always say after someone passes away, "what a wonderful
    person he/she was", but honestly, my cousin was so kind and
    caring and would stop and help anyone.  He was an only child,
    and cared for his parents deeply, never caused them any pain
    or worry.   I wonder to myself, even now, why this happened!
    I still get angry, and I still cry.  Everyday my Aunt and
    Uncle receive something new from the government or from the
    Navy, and each time I feel more pain.  Last week they found
    a few cloths of his and a cigarette lighter, that he was going
    to send home to his father for Father's Day.
    
    I feel that it is the questions, that hold us back from 
    accepting this sooner. "Why do bad things happen to good
    people?"
    
    Thanks for an interesting note.
    
    

    To .18 and .24--
    
    First of all, my sympathy to you and to anyone who has lost someone
    dear to them.  I have lost, too, and it's true that you don't get
    used to it.  What you DO get, thank God, is the feeling that you
    want to tell people how important they are to you, and how much
    you love them.  The memories don't die, but the pain DOES--it may
    take some time, but it does lessen.
    
    When it happens unexpectedly, you need time to react to it.  Carole--go
    home.  Be with someone(s) you love, and talk or weep or whatever
    you want to do.  When you come back, expect that your feelings are
    going to be very close to the surface.  Tell people around you to
    expect it, too.
    
    .24--At the cemetery, that may be the place where the body rests,
    but the soul;  the thing about a person that makes its special and
    unique mark on the world;  is with God and in your heart and will
    always be there.  If you love someone, they never really die because
    you carry them with you.
    
    One of the closest and dearest people in the world to me was my
    grandmother, and when she died very suddenly of a heart attack I
    was lost.  It took me a long time to get thru the anger and hurt
    (and of course, I felt I had to be the "pillar of strength" in the
    family), but when I let that all go, I grieved.  All those bad feelings
    left me, and I can think of her with love, happiness, and laughter.
    
    Keep remembering that when you have pain, it's because you will
    have joy afterwards.  This is God's promise, and He doesn't welch
    on them.
    
    Stay in touch, 
    
    Jane 

    Thank you.
    
    This note inspired me to get in touch with a friend who I haven't
    seen in many moons.  Not that I think she's in danger of dying,
    no more than anyone else, but then again there are no guarantees
    in this life.  You reminded me of the importance of keeping in
    touch, not allowing the details of daily living become excuses
    for becoming isolated.  When I think of how important this person
    and many others are to me, all my excuses become worthless.
    Likewise with holding grudges - when I think that it's possible
    that tomorrow would be too late to resolve an issue, either
    the issue becomes unimportant or the resolution becomes very
    important.
    
    --Louise

    Dealing with death is extremely difficult... It's been over 2 years
    since my father committed suicide and I still have nights when I'll
    cry myself to sleep; I cry on his birthday, and Christmas isn't
    as pleasant as it used to be.  The pain has lessened in the two
    years... I can talk about it (luckily), but every now and again,
    I'll be in the middle of talking about it with a close friend and
    the tears will start flowing all over again.
    
    The thing that gets me is that on the afternoon that he shot himself,
    at about the time it happened, I almost called home to tell him
    about something I had seen on the way into work that reminded me
    of my hometown (where the rest of my family lived at the time).
    I still feel some guilt for not calling - it might not have stopped
    him from doing it, but it might have delayed it enough so that we
    could have gotten him some help... 
    
    And the questions, ah yes, the questions.  One could go crazy trying
    to find all the answers to why someone kills him/herself.  I know
    I'll never find all the answers... I just hope my dad is happier now than
    he was just before he died...

�    and over again.  I would stop by the cemetery once in a while
�    and wonder as I looked down, if that's it, is he just lying
�    there in a hole in the ground or has he really gone to heaven.
    
  There is a good book that addresses this question on death.  It's called
  "Life After Life" but the author's name escapes me at the moment.
  It's a paperback which can be found in the psychology section of
  any bookstore.  It consists of a study done by pyschologists on
  several hundred people that have clinically 'died' and have related 
  their 'out-of-body' experiences while in this state metamorphosis after
  being brought back to life.

  While no one obviously knows what happens when the final curtain call
  comes, the experiences related by these individuals sure sheds some
  light on the fact that when we die, we are not just a cadaver lying in 
  the ground.  Many people related seeing long lost friends and relative 
  that had died.  I know it sounds strange but it gives us hope that when
  we die, all has not ended.  Besides, i have lots of things i want to
  do with my life and i'm not sure i'll have enough time during a short
  lifetime.  One thing i won't have to worry about though, is buying
  clothes :-).

  I've always believed that our soul lives on and this book helps to 
  affirm my beliefs.  I had written a college report on it but for the life 
  of me i can't find it, otherwise i'd post it here.  It's worth reading.

  About two years ago, my best friend was killed in a motorcycle accident.
  That has had to be the worst experience i've ever had to deal with in my 
  life.  Yes, the pain does fade but it takes plenty of time.  I miss him
  a lot.  I have known many relatives that have died, including my 9 year 
  old cousin, but i think other than an immediate family member or spouse 
  dying, there is no worse pain in the heart than the loss of a very close 
  friend.  I occasionally see his parents around town, but they are not the 
  same people i once knew and any conversation we have seems forced and 
  superficial.  I know it must be very hard for them to loose their only 
  child.  Its been two years now and i have never visited Bill's grave.  
  Although something very strange happened last year.  During the cemetary 
  service for my late uncle i casually glanced around and noticed that the 
  my friends grave was only two stones away.  Prior to that i did not even 
  know what cemetary he was buried in as i could not attend the burial service.

  It always amazes me how easly my parents deal with death.  It seems every 
  week or two they are reading about a friend of their's that has passed
  on.  I guess that death is as much a part of life as life is and the
  realities of it become increasingly evident the older one gets.  My 
  grandmother is 96 and all she's been wanting to do for years is die.  I hope
  she makes it to 100.

				-jim-

    Dr. Raymond Moody -- interesting reading!

    Thanks to everyone.
    
    The wake was pretty tough, but the funeral was nice. 
    
    Two of her (Julie's) sisters spoke a bit about her and at the end
    her father thanked everyone and talked about how her nine year ordeal
    is finally over and she is at peace.  (She was mentally ill).
    
    He was right.  She really is at peace and she won't suffer anymore.
    All in all the service was very nice, but it was very difficult
    to say good-bye.
    
    Thanks again.
    					Carol

         He has quite a eulogy in SOAPBOX.  I'm sure it is comforting
    to those who knew him.
    
                                    Greg

	 I've finally confirmed that a very good friend of mine from
	 high school was killed in the helicopter crash in Korea.
	 I've been avoiding H_R all weekend because I knew that if I
	 opened this conference I would think of him.  He was my
	 confidante in high school, and I was his.  Although I haven't
	 seen him in 6 years, the fond memories of him are as
	 clear as yesterday.

	 Goodbye David.

	 

	 kathy
	 

    Three years ago my Dad took his own life. The shock of his death
    was tremendous and shock not only our family but also all his friends.
    
    I could not deal with the death let alone the fact that it was of
    his own doing. I would not let myself grieve, I felt I had to support
    my Mum and my younger brother and sister (I was 18 at the time)
    
    To anyone who asked how he died I would just say it was a 'car
    accident' Which was a pretty daft thing to say as his death made
    the front page of three local papers and was also on the local news,
    so people knew the truth. But until I could accept it myself I couldn't
    admit it to myself.
    The six months that followed his death were awful for me, I threw
    myself into my college work, took up four part-time jobs and tried
    desperately never to be on my own enough to think about it.
    A lot of friends started drifting away from me and I couldn't
    understand why.
    
    Finally, coming home from work one night, having spent 8hrs at college
    and then a further 8 at work.  My Mum was still up and said she
    wanted to talk to me.
    She asked if I was all right (I know I looked awful I'd lost about
    2 stone in weight) I don't know what actually set me off that night,
    probably sheer exhaustion. But for the first time in six months
    I cried, it must have lasted about 2 or3 hours, I just couldn't
    stop.
    I also sat there and called Dad every name under the sun. At that
    time I hated him so much for what he'd done to us.
    
    I then spent 3 weeks in the country with relatives and fought with
    my emotions the hatred, the bitterness, the lose, the love.
    When I came back I started to live again, my friends came back and
    life went on.
    Although, 3 years on I still cry, I still miss him so much it hurts
    and I still want to know WHY.
    I know he would never have delibaretly hurt us and what ever his
    reasons he thought it was best for all of us. But that still doesn't
    answer my question and it's the hardest feeling of lose that I will
    ever know.
    
    I still Love you Dad.
    

    re .35
    
    There is much research being done about suicide...it might be
    comforting to know that there is evidence that there are certain
    neurochemical changes in the brains of suicide victims. 
    
    It is hard to understand the pain of others and reasons for certain
    behaviors...but more and more as we realize how our bodies operate
    it will be easier to accept and treat unusual behaviors.
    
    My heart goes out to you...and maybe if you read more about suicide
    you will be able to truthfully say that your Dad died as a result
    of an accident.
    
    Hugs...
    
    Joyce

    I just lost my father June 1st. it was the first time I had ever lost
    someone I loved, and can't begin to expess the deep pain. He was 82 and
    lived a long life, but it is so painful. I came back to work right away
    so I could keep my mind occupied, but I feel as if I'm just going
    through the motions. How long does it take for the pain to go away ?
    Also he was cremated, I'm having a hard time dealing with it. I know
    the soul lives on, but right now I wish he were still here.

    re: .37
    
    You have my sincere condolences and (I'm certain) that of many who
    read this conference.  I remember well the pain of losing my father
    and can tell you that you will feel better in time.  How long? 
    I cannot say for you or anyone else, but I believe it has everything
    to do with how we mourn our losses.  I, too, returned to work quickly
    to keep busy; what I ended up doing was burying the sorrow I was
    feeling, something I came to regret.  That pain needed to come out
    and be expressed and stuffing it only made things worse in the long
    run.  I wanted microwave mourning and it just doesn't work that
    way.  
    
    The only thing I can suggest is to stay in touch with your feelings 
    and express them; seek out those you trust and let them know what
    you're going through.  Sharing lifes sorrows as well as its joys
    is what true friendship is all about.
    
    And may the God of your understanding grant you solace and peace
    of mind.
    
    Steve
    

    Thank you so much for the advise...........I have alot of wonderful
    memories of my father. I took my mother out yesterday, it was her first
    Sunday alone and we talked alot of our memories and it helped to ease
    the sorrow.
    
    
    Thanks again. I thought  this note was real old.
    

    RE: 37. My condolences also on the death of your father. My father
    has been dead exactly one year this week. It took me about 9 months
    to totally get over his death, but it also took 3 to 4 months for
    the experience of his death to "sink in." There's a bereavement
    society called Omega that has support groups for the recently
    bereaved. It really helped me to attend these meeting for a
    couple of months, as I felt that friends who hadn't lost a
    close family member didn't understand.
    
    Eileen
    

    
    I'd like to respond as someone whose parents are still in good health.
    
    Sometimes I think about what it will be like when they each die.
    
    I don't think I've grasped it well enough,  and I hope that before
    they go I get a chance to do and say all I want for them so that
    I'm not saying "oh I wish I had told Dad such-and-such before he died".
    
    Every time I greet them and hug and kiss them, I remember that they
    won't always be here.  I'm "on my own" but when they die it will still
    hurt to "lose Mommy and Daddy".  I'm sure I don't realize the extent
    of the hurt that some of you have expressed...
    
    /Eric

    You have my deepest sympathy in your loss.
    
    I lost my mother this past year, just after Christmas.  I had also lost
    and aunt 4 weeks previously and another aunt 4 days later.  It is the
    hardest emotion you ever feel.  I don't remember the pain being as bad
    when my father passed away, partly because he had been so sick, but it
    was hard.  We all deal with and feel the pain from a death differently.
    My mother's passing was unexpected and really "knocked the wind" out of
    me.  I also went through a bout of feeling abandoned.  I guess I felt
    that now they were both gone I was really alone.  It was/is the
    weirdest feeling to have or explain.  I also remember when her death
    "sunk in".  If anyone had been with me they may have called the men in
    white coats 'cause all the pain, anger, fear and regrets came flooding
    out.  But it's what helped me finally start to deal with it.
    
    All I can say is let it out.  It'll creep up on you when you least
    expect it.  Talk about your dad and the good times with the rest of the
    family.   It's hard, but it does help.  And like someone in a previous
    note said, people that haven't lost a parent, or someone very close,
    don't fully understand what you are going through, so try to not get
    upset with them.  One day they will understand and you will be there to
    comfort them as those that do understand are comforting you at this
    difficult time.
    
    Take care.
    
    P.
    

    There is a book called "How to Survive the Loss of a Love" that
    may offer you some support at this time of your grieving.  I have
    used it many times in the past and give it to friends who are grieving
    over everything from death to divorce.  It is brief, warm and caring,
    and was written by a therapist and a poet in tandem.
    
    Warmest Regards,
    
    Barb

    I am trying to take each day at a time right now, but there is a
    feeling of emptiness. I have a hard time understanding death and trying
    to beleave that the soul lives on and that my father is in another
    world. Being brought up to beleave that there is life after death and
    then accepting that there is life after death is very hard to deal
    with. However.....my father almost died last October, he had gone into
    cardiac arrest, and I thank God for having the last 8 months to tell
    him I loved him and show him I cared. He spent the last 8 months in a 
    nursing home and it made me realize how important it is to visit and 
    support family members that are in nursing homes, it is a very lonley
    existance.
    
    It is hard knowing that I can't visit him and will never see him again,
    or talk to him on the phone. But I realize that he lived a long
    fulfilling life, and know that he was very fortunate. 
     

      I'm not clear about what I truely believe happens to us after
      death.  Having just put my mother in the hospital for yet more
      tests I think a lot about what losing her might mean. I've been
      reading quite a bit of Emily Dickinson and she has many thoughtful
      poems to help in contemplating what might be beyond. Here are two
      I read and consider.

	    Death is a dialogue between
	    The spirit and the dust.
	    "Dissolve", says Death. The Spirit, "Sir,
	    I have another trust."

	    Death doubts it, argues from the ground.
	    The Spirit turns away,
	    Just laying off, for evidence,
	    An overcoat of clay.

      ------------------------------------------

	    We learn in the retreating
		  How vast an one
	    Was recently among us.
		  A perished sun.

	    Endears in the departure
		  How doubly more
	    Than all the golden presence
		  It was before!

    I watched 'Night Mother on ABC staring Sisy Spacek and Anne somebody,
    a poignant drama by Marsha Norman (It was no surprise that she
    won the Pulizer prize).  Right after the play, ABC listed a bunch
    of phone numbers and said "please call if you are troubled" (or
    something like that)--Rather anticlimatic, wouldn't you say?

    re -1
    
    Yea, Emily Dickinson wrote a lot of stuff about the subject.  The
    most well known is the one that starts with something like "Because I 
    could not stop for death-- He kindly stopped for me--" etc etc....  
    However, I think the best one she ever wrote on the subject is the one 
    that begins with "I heard a Fly buzz -- when I died --".  She had a way
    of turning such an extraordinary event into some small day to day
    insignificant incidence.  It is quite interesting to compare hers with
    the other extreme--that of Sylvia Plath's.  I think both of them
    were quite insane....
    
    Eugene

    Re: .46
    
    >Yea, Emily Dickinson wrote a lot of stuff about the subject.
    
    She sure did.  My junior-year research paper in high school was on the
    death poetry of Emily Dickinson.  She has an interesting way of
    regarding death, not only as if it's a person but as if it's someone
    from the neighborhood.  Maybe not someone you know, but someone you
    recognize.  I don't think she was insane, just extremely introspective.

      No one can know what drives another to suicide. It has to be one of
      the hardest deaths to accept. I found this poem last night that
      perhaps can give an alternate view as to what it may mean to some.

	    A death-blow is a life-blow to some
	    Who, till they died, did not alive become;
	    Who, had they lived, had died, but when
	    They died, vitality begun.

      We hear a lot of talk about the sacred aspect of life and indeed
      our culture treats suicide as an illegal act and the person who
      attempts it as sick. But who is to say what life is worth living
      and what life is best given the freedom to die? There is much
      guilt and recrimination among the friends and relatives of a
      suicide, as if they could have prevented it if they had only
      known. In some clutures suicide is an accepted and respected way
      to regain honor and speed the soul to heaven, in ours it is
      reviled. Regardless, it may still have been the only way for
      someone's soul to find peace. liesl

    re: .44
    
    	It's been two weeks since the passing of your father and I assume
    that you've begun to get back into a 'normal' routine. I hope that
    you are finding it easier now that time is passing. 
    
    	My Dad died 17 years ago. I was in Viet Nam when it happened.
    He had been ill (not serious) just before I went over and I had
    gone home to see him. We talked and laughed and enjoyed each other's
    company. He had lost his job and his car was a junker so I bought
    him a new car so that he could get around and take my mom to work
    and hopefully get himself back to work. When I went overseas, things
    seemed to working out well, he had gone back to work and his illness
    abated. 6 months later he died. 
    
    	Last night my daughter (oldest) had a formal graduation from
    junior high school. She was dressed in a red satin gown for the
    dance that followed. After I returned home, the other kids asleep,
    my wife in bed also, I began to weep because my father never got
    to see any of his grandchildren, never got the chance to enjoy the
    events of their lives and of mine and my brother and sister. 
    
    	Somehow, I believe that the spirit of the dead live on and see
    only the good that we do, and may help us in time of need. I believe
    they ignore any of the bad. Maybe that helps me accept that my dad's
    not with me physically, but spiritually he's always around. You
    never get over the loss, you just deal with better with each new
    day.
    
    	Some stated back a few that they were having a bit of trouble
    dealing with their own death. Everyone has that problem, we just
    find different ways to accept it. What has always fasinated me was
    the way in which animals readily accept their mortality. An animal
    accepts death without crying or complaining. They mourn only for
    a moment, even the loss of an off-spring doesn't devestate them.
    When their time is up, they accept death as a normal part of their
    existence, only man gives up his life or spirit with a fight. 
    
    Ken

    
    .39
    
    	Yes, this note is real old.... but I guess, it's a subject that
    is felt anew by many each day.
    
    Gene~

    
    I have read .44 several times but have never responded - until now,
    that is.  Perhaps because August is a difficult month for me, I
    feel compelled to write.  My father was born in August and two days 
    after his birthday he passed away.  It's been six years - actually, it 
    seems like twenty.  Has time healed the pain?  For the most part,
    yes.  There are times when the grief returns - holidays, special
    occasions, or when something happens to make me think of him.  If
    I have a dream about him, upon waking up, I go through the grieving 
    process all over again...only it doesn't last as long.  My father died 
    in his sleep and it was a real shock.  However, I wouldn't have
    it any other way for his sake.  I am just happy that I had the father
    I had and I hope someday to see him again and feel his warm embrace.
                                                                        
                                                                        
    I read an interview GQ had with Billy Crystal - I found something   
    he said quite poignant.  To paraphrase Mr. Crystal - life without   
    his father was like having an apple with a brown spot....you eat    
    around the brown spot but the apple just isn't the same.            
                                                                        
    
    Looking back on what I've just written - there really is no point
    to this note.  I just felt the need to write my feelings and perhaps
    to let someone know that there are others in the boat.  For those
    who are dealing with grief - let it flow....don't hold it back.
    Only in facing it can we work through it.  
    
    Kris  
         
                                                           
                                                           

    Kris,
    	Thank you for your note.  There definitely was a point to your
    note.
    	It helped me!  My father passed away 5 weeks ago and I think
    today will be the day that I cry.  It is not that I didn't grieve
    it's just that I don't know how.  for 3 or 4 weeks I have kept busy
    and tried not to think about it ( which is very difficult when you
    live alone).  But for a week now I have been dreaming about him
    and many times during the day I find myself suddenly thinking about
    him.
    	I want the tears to come but they don't.  The irony is that
    he was the one who taught me that "boys don't cry".  I hurt so much
    and I wish there was some way to get over this.  I'm tired of covering
    up my feelings with jokes.  
    	His last words were "Mike I need you" and I wanted to help but
    it wasn't possible.  Death is inevitable and even the love and prayers
    of the son won't stop it when the time is at hand.
    	To my higher power I want to say, "Please take care of him for
    me, he was a good man and I love him very much."
    
    Mike

    Geoff worked at CX01-2, IMT/operations in Colorado Springs.  As he
    worked back East for awhile, some of you might know him.  I think he
    was at Marlboro for a stay.
    
            <<< COMET::COMET$DISK8:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COLORADO.NOTE;5 >>>
                                 -< Colorado >-
================================================================================
Note 1315.0                      Geoff McCollor                       No replies
IMTDEV::BERRY "A friend moves on..."                 35 lines  25-JAN-1991 05:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geoff McCollor is no longer with us.

To those that didn't know him, Geoff McCollor worked in IMT/operations
as an operator.  He worked 2nd shift for a long period of time before going to
day shift.  Geoff was battling diabetes for most of his time here at CXO,
around 3 years as I recall, give or take.

Geoff came to us from back East.  He had attended a special operator training
program while working back there.  He brought with him, some great ideas, the
birth of our present DCL code for backing up system data, and a great sense of
humor.

Geoff and I teamed up on a couple of occasions and fought some battles together
within our department.  As an operator, I enjoyed his arrival into the group as
he brought some fresh new ideas and gave me some tutoring and helped me to
understand some things where the manuals and operators training class left off.

Operators see the user community in a special light.  It can often be a
frustrating light, a funny one, or both.  Geoff could take user scenarios and
make them entertaining to say the least, and his memos he circulated among his
peers were bound to put a smile on your face.  It's his dry sense of humor that
I will remember him best for.

Walking around the data center, I can still feel his presence.  Outside of
work, we only managed to get together once, for drinks and some pool, as I work
third shift, and we just never seemed to get out schedules together.  Looking
back, I wish I could change that.  

Perhaps Geoff will look down at operations every now and then, and when we're
confronted with another unique user problem, maybe we'll feel a shiver and
he'll be whispering in our ear, "remember when..."

I can't believe he's gone.  He will be missed by his peers, but not forgotten.

Rest in peace my friend.