Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    > What did your parents teach you?
    
    Funny incident, Gale... my parents were pretty typical, I think...
    hold hands crossing the street, look both ways... don't accept any
    rides or candy from strangers, that sort of thing.
    
    One day I was walking up to the grocery store and a man pulled up
    to the curbing in his car and offered me a ride.  Eyes straight
    ahead, I declined in a firm voice.  Our parish priest later called
    my parents to congratulate them on the thoroughness of their training!
    
    grins,
    Marge

    I don't know if it's my age showing or what, but I do get a bit
    irate at parents who let their kids...young kids!  not teens...
    take off running from their cars in the parking lot to the store.
    
    As for protecting myself, I think it's just generally a matter of
    good common sense... I lock my car doors when I'm driving in 
    unfamiliar areas...  and use a light timer at home.  I don't personally
    have a gun at home but if I were living in a high-crime area, I
    would consider it coupled with the proper training to use it.
    And if I were home enough to care for it properly, I would have a dog.
    
    My sister lives in the city and wears a police whistle on a chain
    around her neck when she goes out on the street.  They have organized
    "neighborhood watches".
    
    For me, the key is to use common sense but not to get paranoid.
    
    Marge  
    
    

    re .0:
    
    > Please, if you can't give a seriouos answer, then see the 'fraidy cat
    > note.... and place your non-serious answer there if you must.... 
      
    You think I wasn't serious?
    
    - M

    When I got divorced, my boys were 6 and 7 years old.  I bought a
    house across the street from school to eliminate the whole bus/walking
    home_problem_possibilities.  My mother lived around the corner in
    case of accident/illness and they stayed with her when they were
    little until I got home.  As they got older they wanted to stay
    at home and just call Gram if there was a problem so we got a big
    dog.  Several times strange men (meter readers and such) came to
    the door when the boys were alone and refused to enter the house
    because they were afraid of the dog.  Our Pooh-Bear died two winters
    ago and now we have another big dog, a neufoundland named Max. 
    My sixteen year old takes Max everywhere he goes and more than once
    Max's presence has been a God-send for him.  Dogs are'nt man's best
    friend you know....they are woman's best friend_:-)  You are never
    really alone when you have a dog in the house and dogs are so wonderful.

        I grew up in a house that not only wasn't ever locked, but
        couldn't be. Most of the windows had no latches. Several of the
        outside doors had no locks beyond possibly a small hook and eye.
        The bulkhead had not lock. I was told to not talk to strangers
        nor to take rides. I walked everywhere fron the fourth grade on,
        and was a good enough walker (by high school I sustained 6 MPH)
        and enjoyed it enough that I never really wanted to take rides
        even from friends and acquaintence. From the age of 12 I was
        allowed to go to Boston on my own.
        
        I guess what I learned was self sufficiency, confidence and
        independence. I dealt with my problems, I took my licks, and I
        seldom relied on others for protection. Not that my parents
        wouldn't come to my aid, but I prefered to handle my troubles
        myself. 
        
        When I was 12 I was attacked by a bunch of kids one of whom
        threatened me with a knife. I broke free and ran like Hell
        (through the woods where no-one could keep up with me). I told
        my folks, but refused to identify who the kid with the knife
        was. They, the police or the school figured out who it was and
        the two of us were called to the principles office. I still
        refused to confirm who it was. Afterwards I told him that it was
        not from fear of him, just that I don't like others to fight for
        me. He never bothered me again. The incident was the end of a
        long episode of being beaten on a regular basis.
        
        I've never been very proficient with weapons or with my fists,
        although I am better than average in many such skills. I just
        have a determination that has seen me through a lot of scraps. I
        may run, but I don't quit or back down. The attitude has worked
        for me, but I don't claim it will work for all.
        
        JimB. 

    Yes, use common sense most of all.
    
    I do advocate learning karate, or one of the martial arts--just
    knowing it gives you a lot of self confidence.  It is especially
    good for children to learn, too.  Nothing, unfortunately, can totally
    prevent kidnapping, but knowing how to defend themselves will greatly
    help your children's chances.
    
    As for break-ins, I am paranoid about them, too.  Having your home
    broken into is one of the scariest and most demoralizing things
    that can happen to you.  Just get good locks for doors and windows
    (I like the 2-piece window locks that prevent the window from being
    opened from the outside more than 3 inches), use timers on your
    lights (and change the times occasionally), and get to know your
    neighbors (best of all).  Get so that you watch each others' houses
    and report anything suspicious immediately.  Again unfortunately,
    if a real pro wants to get into your house, he can do it.  But for
    the most part, people like us (average income, etc.) are not usually
    targets for "big-time" guys.  You want to protect your home from
    kids with time on their hands, and usually you can do it.  In
    decorating your home, try not to have items of obvious value--TV,
    stereo, VCR, jewelry, etc. visible from the windows.
    
    Try not to get into the state of mind where you are constantly
    fearful of these things happening.  All you can do is take the best
    precautions you can, pray, and use your head.  I know that after
    our home was broken into (again, by kids) I went thru a stage where
    I hid things, I bought new locks, I set "traps" around the house
    (remember the "Vigilante" movies??), etc.  After a time I realized
    that all I was doing was reacting to what happened, and acting on
    my anger and outrage.  
    
    So do what you can, and LET IT GO.  Try to live positively.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Jane

RE: Protecting one's self, etc...

I am against protectionism for it's own sake...  What I mean is that if you're
afraid to do something you want to do, like walk around your city/town after
dark; then you're being afraid; you're not protecting yourself if you let your
fear keep you from going for a walk...

I always went a lot of places myself, even when I was young, even when they were
not the best parts of town; I never had any problem.  Partly because I was not
afraid...  Yes, I occasionally had goose pimples, but I was determined not to
let my fear, or anybody else stop me from living a free live doing what I wanted
to do.

Locks, alarms they are good in their places.  Precautions are good in their
place.  I never 'went for a ride in a stranger's car', but I've gone hitch
hiking 500 miles...  I met the oddest people doing that, many of whom you might
have been afraid to pick up a hitchhiker; an elderly couple, women, a slaesman
with expensive samples...  But they were not afriad to help someone out,
give them a ride...

more later...

Jim. 

	Common sense is *always* the best defense, along with keeping
	your wits about you.

	I used to work with my Tae Kwon Do instructor in teaching a
	women's self-defense class.  In the ten weeks of the course
	we couldn't teach them much, but we could make them aware of
	their surroundings.  The object wasn't to scare them into 
	"reality", but to give them tools that they could use to make
	their lives safer and themselves more confident.  By teaching
	"threat avoidance" we taught them how not to be at the mercy
	of their environment.  You teach children the same way.

	Carrying a police whistle is a great idea.  It's sound carries
	a lot further than a shout.  Sometimes, when a person is afraid,
	they can't scream.

	Your number one priority when faced with a life threatening
	situation is get away from there.  Remove the threat by removing
	yourself from the situation.  Do ANYTHING that you need to do...

 	RE:  weapons -- Weapons are a last resort, and for EXPERTS ONLY!
	I have taught quite a few people how to shoot a shotgun till *I*
	considered them "experts" in safety, but using a weapon during a
	crises is totally different from shooting skeet.  Still, you can
	argue that as a last resort, to save the lives of those dearest
	to you (including yourself) it may be the only way.  In actuality,
	you usually have many other options that I consider more valid.
	It takes a lot of time to become proficient with a handgun, and
	too many people do not develop the necessary skills to responsibly
	handle them.

	I'm sure that there are a lot of ideas out there on how to make
	your home more secure...

    1. if you are in your home and you suspect that someone has broken in
    to rob you of all your worldly goods, DO NOT turn on the lights, but
    try to frighten them into running away, in the dark by making a loud
    noise or something - the logic of this is simple: you know your way
    around your house, pretty well, but he (she?) does not... 
    
    2. also try to arange things a bit so someone breaking in will trip
    over something and get scared and run away...
       
    3. Blinds and double glazing that lock are big deterants...
    
    4. Paint "SUPA-ALARM-INC." on a reasonable sized biscuit tin, paint
    the whole thing bright red, and mount it on the wall real high on
    your house - looks like a burglar alarm! 
    
    5. Put up a sign "Beware of the Dog" (especially if you have a dog,
    even if it is a peeke!)
    
    6. Don't leave attractive items, Cameras, VCRs, Stereo etc., where
    they can be easily seen from outside...
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Andy.

Several years ago i was wandering around alone in Mexico City at night.
Well, i was approached by these two 'gentlemen' who had a great desire
to obtain money without earning it.  As soon as i saw them coming toward 
me i knew i was in for a tense situation.  They just wouldn't believe 
that i didn't have any money on me (actually i had most of it in American 
Express traveller's cheques).  After a brief exchange of words, the big 
guy started to get physical, and i decided it was time for an exit, 
stage-left so i hi-tailed it out of there as fast as i could!  My feet were 
moving so quickly, they couldn't of caught me if they tried.

I think that the best advice when confronted with danger is to run.
I'd do it even if i knew one of the many forms of martial arts.  It just
isn't worth sticking around.  It could be very hazardess to your health.

			-jim-

    My solution: run or hide.  If confronted, try to minimize getting
    hurt (like, don't provoke an attack).
    
    Non-solution: guns, martial arts, knives, kicking, punching, etc.
    Doesn't fit my morals, and yes, I'd rather get [beat up, knived,
    raped, stolen from, whatever] than use violence.  I am however,
    quite young, and having children to care for would make this difficult
    to swallow.
    
    My experience thus far has been that you can get out of anything
    by avoiding it, talking/crying your way out of it, running, etc.
    If someone is hell-bent to maim you, they will do so anyway, and
    I am certain I could not live knowing I had maimed another human
    being [albeit a lowly sort of human being].

    Lee

>I think that the best advice when confronted with danger is to run.
>I'd do it even if i knew one of the many forms of martial arts.  It just
>isn't worth sticking around.  It could be very hazardess to your health.

	I agree, and my earlier entry wasn't meant to suggest a
	confrontation... (just in case I was misunderstood...)

	Get out of the situation!!

						-- Mike

    Scream "FIRE!"
    
    People tend to come running -- I guess because they want to watch
    -- and it's the thing most likely to scare the burglar or mugger
    since he or she knows that people are going to come running.
    
    --bonnie

re .0
    
�    How do you (we) protect outselves in this society?  I know there
�    are Karate lessens one can take - but that is not an immed cure
�    (like if something were to happen tonight), there are guns, but
�    I am against them, mace possibly?
    
     The best solution is to learn to anticipate and avoid the danger. At
     the DECUS held in Dallas I walked 8 miles in the gathering darkness
     through what I was later told was the Dallas version of the Combat
     Zone, where muggings and mayhem occurred nightly. I walk aware: keep
     away from walls, observe everything around me, and treat every body
     I meet as a potential threat (sorry folks: that's how I was trained)
     - if anybody gets near my threat zone I prepare to flee or fight depending
     on circumstances. Fact is if you don't look like a victim they usually
     go look for somebody else.
     
     I don't recomend Karate or any other sport lessons: these are just
     that - sports. They are next to useless in a street fight. (And yes
     I am a black belt in several Japanese/Korean martial arts)
     
     I don't recomend a gun unless you can draw and fire to kill in less
     than 1 second at the absolute most, are capable of hitting a man sized
     target at 5' under stress with at least 90% of shots in the kill zone.
     I can do that, if you can't don't carry a gun.
     
     I don't recomend any non-lethal disabling device: even if stone cold
     sober and not on drugs a bad guy can often take it off you and use
     it against you. It is VERY hard to stop somebody on PCP or some other
     street drugs.
     
     The basic rule if you are going to fight is YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED
     TO KILL BEFORE THEY GET A CHANCE TO KILL YOU. If this is impossible
     for you then practice avoidance techniques.
    
�    Or how does one act if in a post office and a man/woman comes in
�    deemed to kill everyone in the post-office?
     
     Very carefully. Don't annoy them, and whatever you do don't do anything
     to lower their self esteem or give them the impression that their
     situation is impossible. If they lose hope they may just blow away
     the hostages and then suicide.
     
Re .12
     
     (And anybody else who can't/won't fight) - I offer two scenarios.
     
     i) you are walking along avoiding trouble and you see/hear two punks
     in a side alley raping a woman. What do you do. To make this harder
     for you it is late at night, it is a deserted business district and
     everywhere is closed. There are no phone boxes to call the police.
     
     ii) the "Coward of the County" syndrome - you are a peace loving
     individual determined to avoid trouble and out for a meal with your
     SO. You encounter a group of punks who know you always refuse to fight,
     and so avoid trouble and they push you aside and begin to 
     physically/sexually molest your SO (You may substitute "child" for
     SO if you wish).
     
     Before you suggest these are unlikely scenarios I wish to point out
     that I have experienced both.
     
     /. Ian .\     
    

    I have received mail from a fellow noter, and would like to add a post
    script to .15
    
    In making my final remarks a reference to .12, I did not mean to attack
    the views expressed there. In fact I highly admire the strength of
    character of one who can turn the other cheek.
    
    Rather my scenarios were *prompted* by .12, for as .12 describes the
    response to a personal threat I wonder about the response of many to
    a third party threat. In general I wonder whether what is seen as strength
    of character when the threat is directed at yourself, becomes like the
    actions of the passers by in the Parable of the Good Samaritan when
    the threat is directed at another.
    
    So again I meant nothing personal to the author of .12 - rather I just
    wanted to offer a different type of threat for consideration.
    
    /. Ian .\

    re .12:
    
    > If someone is hell-bent to maim you, they will do so anyway, and I am
    > certain I could not live knowing I had maimed another human being
    > [albeit a lowly sort of human being]. 
      
    I guess if this attitude gets you killed the only difference is
    that you don't have to live with the fact that your decision got
    a human being maimed (yourself).  
 
    If you won't do what it takes to survive, how is your concern for life
    (the basis of your "no violence!" stand) any greater than that of your
    attackers? 
    
    - M
               

For those within striking distance of Spit Brook (Nashua, NH) the following
appeared in Live Wire

         # # # FILM # # # FILM # # # FILM # # # FILM # # # FILM # # #

                              "Lady Beware" Film

WHEN:      	Wednesday
		June 17th
WHERE:     	Mauchly/Eckert Conf. Rm. (ZKO1-3)
TO BE SHOWN:  	12 Noon and again at 12:30

        # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

  How can a woman protect herself if she wakes at night to find an
  intruder in her house?  If she is forced off the road by another motorist?
  If she is walking through an unfamiliar area at night and senses that she is
  being followed?

RE: .*

Sometimes it is best to run, When you can't take the danger, or nothing would be
served by staying. 

Sometimes it is best to turn the other cheek, When you can ...

Sometimes you have to have to standup and fight, or you will spend the rest
of your life dodging threats, and what kind of life is that?  You have to
stand up for what is right, or *you* become part of the problem!

Jim.
     

You have some great ideas, Ian.  Just a couple of comments.

>     							I walk aware: keep
>     away from walls, observe everything around me, and treat every body
>     I meet as a potential threat (sorry folks: that's how I was trained)
>     - if anybody gets near my threat zone I prepare to flee or fight depending
>     on circumstances. Fact is if you don't look like a victim they usually
>     go look for somebody else.
     
Great technique!!  It works... muggers want an easy mark.

>     I don't recomend Karate or any other sport lessons: these are just
>     that - sports. They are next to useless in a street fight. (And yes
>     I am a black belt in several Japanese/Korean martial arts)
     
That's a very good point... Karate can turn you into a "dojo ballerina"
if it's not taught and practiced with self-defense in mind.

It's difficult to pick a school that will teach practical self-defense,
and a street fight is not the place to find out your training was lacking.
They should also teach you how to use things that you normally carry with
you as weapons to assist in breaking away from an attacker.

>     I don't recomend a gun unless you can draw and fire to kill in less
>     than 1 second at the absolute most, are capable of hitting a man sized
>     target at 5' under stress with at least 90% of shots in the kill zone.
>     I can do that, if you can't don't carry a gun.
     
I can (I practice a lot), but I still won't carry one off my property... 
usually...  :-)

>     I don't recomend any non-lethal disabling device: even if stone cold
>     sober and not on drugs a bad guy can often take it off you and use
>     it against you. It is VERY hard to stop somebody on PCP or some other
>     street drugs.
     
Almost impossible to stop someone on PCP or speed without putting him in
the hospital... even then he probably won't realize that you've seriously
hurt him until his "high" is over.

I don't like mace or any of those other varieties of sprays.  Not only can
it be used against you, what if the wind is in your face while you are 
spraying?

If you know what you're doing, a walking stick or umbrella can be very 
useful for helping get you out of the danger area.  A 'rat tail' brush
or comb can be a nasty surprise if you're grabbed... just don't try the
"keys between the fingers while punching" trick.  You have a good chance
of breaking your fingers and/or losing your keys and you need them to get
into your house/car.  High healed shoes make good weapons... just remember
the point is to get out of the area by breaking away and getting away.


						-- Mike

    re .16 3rd party
    
    Yup, that is the hardest question.  I've never been in the first, so i
    don't know what I would do.  Second is easy: tell the bartender/
    whoever you'll sue the pants off them, they'll stop it.  Failing that,
    nasty comments about the masculinity of any man who can't find a
    willing slut [i hate that word, but when talking to apes...] to prove
    themselves with, etc, etc.  That has worked with every english/american
    speaker I have used it on, seems to turn 'em into spaghetti, yelling,
    but unable to rape.  When hit [or witness to someone being hit], you
    say "oh boy it takes a *real*man* to beat a woman, doesn't it."  Once
    again, that is very effective with english speakers.  It has failed
    on me twice, and both were in France with francophones.  Words are
    a very powerful weapon, I find.  My problem is to keep from using
    them to provoke someone into hitting me when he [never she] is yelling
    at me.
    
    Re. .17
    
    Are you serious?  My body is mine with which to do as I choose.
    
    
    Lee

RE: .21 RE .17

Seriously, you must have a higher priority on something other then 'life'
to allow yourself to be maimed or killed...  nonviolence???

Jim YODA::BARANSKI

    I agree with the opinions expressed in other replies that you should
    at ALL costs avoid a fight.  That means staying away from dangerous
    or potentially dangerous places, handing over your wallet when
    threatened, etc.  There is simply no way of knowing how lethal someone
    can become, and whoever is threatening you is probably a good deal
    more panicky and desperate than you are.
    
    In situations where you can't avoid physical combat, there are some
    defensive techniques you should know, and they have nothing whatsoever
    to do with karate or any other martial "art."  There's a book called
    something like MUGGING: YOU CAN PROTECT YOURSELF which describes
    many of these techniques.  I don't remember the author's name, but
    I think he is a detective on some police force.  I'll find out and
    enter the info here.

    Avoidance is my choice also, not to the point where my life has
    to be altered because I may enter a dangerous situation. I go
    about my business, if something bad happens and I can get out of
    it w/o myself or anyone I'm with getting hurt, that's my choice.
    However, if I feel that my life, or especially those of my
    wife or childs' is threatened, I would not hesitate in stopping
    the person responsible by whatever means available.
    To help avoid things like that from happening, we organized a
    Neighborhood Watch program in our area which apparently has worked.
    In the 2 years since it started, no criminal activity has occured
    in the area. As an added benefit, we all became a little closer
    and watch out for each other. I highly recommend it. We also have
    a dog, a 100 pound black lab (OK, he's a bit overweight) who strikes
    fear into everyone (including me sometimes) who approaches the house.
    Any little noise outside, esp. at night, draws a series of growls
    and barks that is music to my ears, but the last thing a burglar
    wants to hear!
    John
    

    re .21 [ re .17]:
    
    > Are you serious?  
    
    Yes.
    
    > My body is mine with which to do as I choose. 
          
    Fine, but how can you claim to be any more moral than someone out to
    kill you??
    
    - M 
    
       

    re .25:
    
    Ms. Tatistcheff's response is more moral that her hypothetical
    attacker's for one simple reason: her behavior is her decision to do
    what she wants with her person and her life, while her attacker's
    behavior is its decision to do what it wants with someone else's person
    and someone else's life. 
    
    	Jon

    I know a (former) professional burgler who told me the following:
    
    1. The legal penalty for Breaking and Entering In the Nightime is
    greater than for B&E during the daytime so most professionals do not
    break into your home at night.  This means that if you wake up to
    find someone in your home you may be dealing with a rapist, a drug
    addict or a looney (someone who is there for a violent reason) and 
    not just a burgler.
    
    2. The professional burgler does it for money and avoids a
    confrontation at all costs, at the first sign of noise or activity
    indicating that someone is in the house he will leave quietly.
    This means that if you are home sick and hear a noise in the house
    turn on a radio or cough, give him a chance to run and he probably
    will leave without anyone getting hurt.
                     
    3. If you have a dog he will most likely go next door where they
    do not have a dog.  Professionals frequently go through a whole
    neighborhood and won't take the time to bother with a house that
    has a dog.  If your house is robbed and you DO have a dog it has
    most likely been robbed by someone you know.
              
    Not much help perhaps but I've found that it is sometimes usefull to
    know what kind of a situation you are dealing with when difficulties
    arise.                 
    Mary

    I was taught that if someone was going to hurt me, and I could
    not get away, that there was nothing that was unfair of me to
    do to protect myself. Knowing that I would use any means needed
    to protect myself dissuaded several bullies from picking on me
    as a child.
    
    As for the idea of submitting to a beating (or killing etc) rather
    then use violence to protect myself, well, I have a hard time with
    that. It seems that the decision one is making is that the attackers
    life and/or physical well being is more important then ones own.
    It is equivalent to saying that the attacker is a better person,
    more deserving of remaining whole then the victim. Much as I'd hate
    to hurt or kill another, I'd rather do that then be hurt or killed
    myself. I have people who'd miss me a great deal if I were not around.
    
    			Alfred

    re .27  So, what's the ratio of 'professional' burglars
    to 'amateurs' ?  This seems like an important question ?
    Which is more likely to break in at night - a rapist or
    an 'amateur' burglar ? Some statistics, please ?

    >>So, what's the ratio of 'professional' burglars to 'amateurs'?
    >>This seems like an important question?
    >>Which is more likely to break in at night - a rapist or an 
    >>'amateur' burglar?  Some statistics, please?
    
    Most of the 'amateur burglars' I've had any experience knowing were
    young, (out-of-work or perhaps dropped-out-of-school) and tended to 
    restrict their activities to the day time too.  In legal terms
    breaking and entering during the nighttime carries a longer jail
    sentence because it assumes that there was some intent or possibility
    of bodily harm to the owner/occupant.
    
    I don't know what the ratio is and (do be honest with you) compiling 
    statistics for a conversation in a notesfile is (frankly)
    amount_of_work_exceeds_level_of_interest_;-)  Don't want to upset
    anyone but, in my OPINION,  anyone who breaks into your home
    during the night is dangerous and confrontation should be avoided
    if possible.  Please note that this is just an opinion.

	The trend toward daytime breakins-to-burglarize may also be increasing
	since, in many neighborhoods, there simply AREN'T many people home
	during the weekday (like most of us reading this :-).  

	Why bother with nighttime when you've got the whole working day?
		-hh

    It is open season if they are in my house. I take someone coming
    into my house without my consent as a personal violation.
    I plan to deal with the situation by comunicating my feelings
    to the violator in a clear 12ga manner.
    
    -j
    

    re: .33 - besides, Jerry, we have the "Make My Day" provision here
              in Colorado Springs, which kinda makes 'em think twice
              before being naughty instead of nice.
    
    Sherm

    	Some time ago, I remember the Massachusetts Legislature passing
    a law permitting the use of deadly force in protection of your
    property.  It may have since been repealed, but I know it was on
    the books for a while...
    
    					--Doug

    re .35 '...not brandishing a weapon...'
    
    	I'll bet I can do more 'deadly' damage to your body before you
	even realize it was planned, _without_ brandishing a 'deadly'
    	than you can shake a pacific principle at ( ;})
    
    A clearly defined "deadly" weapon is not a requirement to inflict
    "grievous bodily harm".  One reason professional boxers cannot fight
    on the street, and some municipalities "register" karate blackbelts.
    
    It does not even take special training; practice _does_ help, but
    it's not necessary.  An assailant, especially in the night, may
    simply overpower you and proceed to pommel you to pulp.
    
    Dwight

re.35
    Yes, It did allow almost exactly that! It has since been changed
    to remove some of the grey areas. You are still within your rights
    to "blow away" an attacker. This law has been tested a few times
    but to answer questions, NO it has not lead to Mass killings.
    To my knowledge no one has been prosicuted for defending.
    
    I belive the fact that Colorado is not overlawed and allows
    ownership of guns DOES make most criminals think twice since
    many homes are "armed". I have heard estimates that as high
    as 43% are gun owners.
    
    I think It is the second best law in the country the first best
    being the twon that REQUIRES all homes to be armed.
    
    -j
    
    
    

    re: last few
    
    Don't you guys know this is the "I'm more liberal than you are"
    conference- you can't talk about shooting people!!!!!  :-)
    
    - M

    Re: .39
    
    That's tellin 'em, Mike.  In this conference, we HUG people to
    death!   :-)
    				Steve

    Bah humbug !  We just hug 'em 'til they puke.   :-)

     I HAVE 4 CHILDREN 2 BOYS AGE 6 AND 9. TWO GIRLS AGE 20 AND 27.
     THEY HAVE ALL BEEN TAUGHT THAT NO ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO BOTHER
    THEM IN ANY WAY AND THEY ARE TO USE THE HIGHST LEVEL OF FORCE AVAILABLE
    TO TERMINATE AN ATTACK AND THEY SHOULD NOT FEEL THE ANY REMORSE
    FOR ANY DAMAGE DONE TO THEIR ATTACKER. 
    MY 20 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER HAS BEEN ATTACKED TWICE IN ATTEMPTED RAPE
    SITUTIONS ONCE AT AGE 11 AND ONCE AT AGE 20 IN BOTH CASES SHE
    SUCESSFULLY DEFENDED HERSELF AND SHE HERSELF WAS NOT HARMED ASIDE
    FROM TORN CLOTHS IN EITHER INCIDENT HER ATTACKERS COULDENT HANDEL
    HER RESPONSE AND WERE DAMAGED CONSIDERABLY. 
    MY 27 YEAR OLD WAS ATTACKED WHEN SHE WAS 20. SHE WAS HIT IN THE
    FACE BY SUPRISE BY SOMEBODIES FIST. SHE BEAT OFF HER ATTACKER 
    SUCESSFULLY. SHE SUFFERED SOME NERVE DAMAGE ON HER FACE WE DONT
    KNOW HOW BADELY SHE DAMAGED HER ATTACKER. I THINK FROM THESE
    EXPERIENCES THAT THE KEY IS IN MENTAL ATTITUDE ABOUT SELF DEFENCE.
    AND THE WILLINGNESS TO DEFEND YOURSELF WITHOUT WORRY ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU
    DAMAGE YOUR ATTACKER. IN BOTH CASES THEY USED PURSES FEET AND
    FINGERNALES TO BEAT THEIR ATTACKERS, GOING FOR THE EYES AND FACE
    WITH FINGERNALES AND THE APPROATE PLACE WITH THEIR FEET.
    I HAVE RECIENTLY TRAINED THEM (DAUGHTERS) IN THE PROPER USE OF
    ELECTRONIC STUN GUNS AND THEY CARRY THEM ALL THE TIME NOW.
    ALL MY KIDS HAVE RECIEVED EXTENSIVE TRAINING IN THE USE OF A WIDE
    VARITY OF HANDGUNS FROM AGE 3. AND ALL ARE RESPECTIBLE SHOTS. ALTHOUGH
    I DONT RECOMMEND TO THEM THAT THEY USE A HANDGUN FOR SELF DEFENSE
    IN THE HOUSE. FOR THE HOUSE A TWENTY GAUGE SHOTGUN IS PROPER.
    THIS ALL MAY SOUND ROUGH BUT SELF DEFENSE IS NO GAME. THEIR IS NO
    EASY CLEAN WAY TO DEFEND YOURSELF. SELF DEFENCE IS A DIRTY GAME.
    MY DAUGHTERS ARE VERY GRATEFUL FOR THE TRAINING THEY RECIEVED AND
    I PITY ANYONE WHO GOES AFTER THEM THEY HAVE LEARNED FROM THEIR PAST
    EXPIERANCES AND ARE FAR BETTER ABLE AND WILLING TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.