Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Dealing with other people's games:
    
    I think your note hits on the salient points.  People do these things
    because it helps them cope, not because they want to be annoying.
    Annoyance, in a situation like this, is more of a side effect. 
    And not playing along is probably the best way of handling it from
    the receiving end.  There's no need and no point in mounting a crusade
    to get the game-player to stop playing.  It may drive them to finding
    some more drastic method of handling whatever causes them to do
    it the first place.
    
    You have to find some way of getting along, accept that this is
    how things have to be, and get on with your life.
    
    I have a very similar problem with my mother.  I love her more than
    life itself, but we just don't get along.  That seems like a
    contradictory statement, but that's how it is.  I cannot remember ever
    spending more than forty-eight hours in her presence without our
    finding something to fight about.  It only got worse as I got older,
    and formed my own sets of priorities and values and beliefs.  I have
    accepted that we are just not going to be very close.  She is only
    beginning to accept that her relationship with her only child is
    not exactly how she thought it was going to be.
    
    I have never given any thought to quantifying how I detect that
    I'm playing some kind of game with myself or with someone else.
    Usually, if I figure it out early, I can usually find some way of
    dealing with it. It gets bad if it takes me a long time to figure
    it out, though.  I don't cope with it very well at all, much of
    the time.
    
    The key is trying to determine the cause.  In your example with
    your mother, you seem to have pinpointed the underlying reason for
    her behavior, and I think that is the only reliable method of
    detection.  Of course, not all of us can be astute all the time.
    
    DFW
     

    
    This is a very interesting subject to me as I come from a family
    who (I think) invented the rules to the games.  It's funny though,
    my oldest brother and I didn't play along, while my middle brother
    played to perfection.  He made all the right moves at all the right
    times and he NEVER missed his turn.  Therefore, he won the game...
    
    I think games are very important some ways.  For example, the most
    popular game I can think of is called "Picking up Girls/Guys in
    a Bar" (not one of MY favorites, however).   Just imagine what would
    happen if someone came up to you and said "Hi.  I find you very
    attractive (or whatever), and I'd like to get to know you better."
    I think most people would flip.  They'd think you were some kind
    of lunatic.  REAL people can't be that open and honest.
    
    Okay, so far this has been very sarcastic.  Probably because I don't
    like the games either and I don't have the slightest idea how to
    tell people.  I just know they're played continuously.  And that
    if you don't play the game right, you lose.  And the hardest part
    is .... no-one ever tells you the rules.
    
                                                           
    
    						jean
    
    
    

    I think folks that play head games don't generally recognize it in
    themselves... In some cases, it may be effective to simply point
    out that you interpret their behavior as such... that you've had
    the following reaction to their behavior and was that what they
    intended?
    
    
    Marge
    
    

    I've always found that discussing the 'games' is the best thing
    to do ... I want to let the other person know that I am aware of
    what is going on.  This doesn't have to be done in a malicious way;
    it doesn't have to hurt, although that might be the (hopefully
    temporary) result.
    
    I believe that people very often *do* know what they are doing,
    when they play head games, but they try to deny that knowledge so
    that they won't have to consider that they might not be using the
    best approach to solve their problems.
    
    In the case of friends and family members, I take the same approach,
    Jerri - I talk to the person about the problem, let the person know
    that I believe his/her actions are detrimental to the relationship,
    tell them I love them, and let it go.  (Occasionally these points
    need reinforcement, though!)  Often, when the person realizes and
    accepts that you will only deal with them with total honesty (and
    love), and not let your own life be adversely affected by the whole
    thing, they will come around.
    
    - dave
    

    What do you do when you confront someone with your opinion that
    they're playing a game, and they deny it with righteous 
    indignition?  Then they keep on doing what they were doing,
    often taking it to further extremes.  How do you tell if it's
    a headgame you're being subjected to, or if you're being too
    sensitive or reading them wrong or not understanding or any
    of a multitude of other explanations?
    
    --Louise

re: 313.7
    
>   There seems to be a "missing piece", in that "How long has it been
>   since you lived close to your mother ?".

    Three years.  I got married 3-1/2 years ago and moved from California
    to N.H.  Before that time, our relationship was tense for about 5 years
    because of her desire to control things and me.  This has been her way
    of life.  It does make it difficult when her only child chooses a whole
    different mental path from her.  After all these years she has still
    not accepted it.  She is so caught up in resisting my life, she rarely 
    hears what I say...and she creates conflicts out of thin air.  She has
    ceased talking to me many times for long periods of time.  It's always
    for the same reason...because I've "got to live my own life now."  I
    don't seem to be the one having a problem with that. ;^)  I've finally 
    gotten used to her 'slamming the door', but...it's still a bummer.

    I agree with your reasons as to why she is doing this...and I don't 
    blame her.  She's doing what she thinks she has to.  However, I see 
    other alternatives for both of us than pulling a tug of war.

    Another reply asked what do people do when someone who is playing a
    game denies it (and keeps playing)...and how do you know if you just
    misjudged them?    

    I'd just like to say that I've faced this many times.  It's tricky to 
    determine between sensitivity and being judgemental.  I've approached 
    people after sensing what I thought was a destructive game they were 
    playing, and some of them have denied it.  Some of them admitted to it 
    and never spoke to me again. :^)  But for the people that denied it 
    and kept doing it, I just let them go.  Whether or not they were 
    really playing a game...if the relationship was still uncomfortable 
    for me, that's reason enough to go my own way...without hard feelings.  
    Some things just don't flow as well as others and that's okay.

    I think sensitivity is a very sharp blade.  It works well when you use
    it correctly, but if you get a little bit off target, it can slice 
    into other things you weren't expecting.  The only thing that has 
    helped me steer my way through this fragile jungle with my sharp blade 
    has been to remember love as the reason for what I do.  I get in a lot
    less trouble that way...and many things that used to be important to 
    me to fix, aren't important anymore.  So, I don't find myself involved
    in as many conflicts or destructive games with people.

    If I may use more symbolism...I'd just like to say that this whole
    subject reminds me of a person standing on a rock (just for visual
    purposes) and many people around them are hassling and quarreling
    and pushing and pulling and kicking and screaming.  It's tempting
    to want to step off of the rock and join in with all of the action...
    or to convince people to stop and join you on your rock.  But neither 
    of those things will make you happy.  So, the object seems to be to 
    stay on your rock and relate from there, without getting off, or 
    pulling others on.  I hope that made sense to some people.  That is
    in no way to say you don't change.  I just think of the rock as
    happiness.

    Jerri

    
    jerri... the anology is good... but the person who is not happy
    is not on the rock.  They are forced to "deal" with the frey, they
    have no safe place to stay and seperate themselves from "the game".
    
    eagle... you say "don't play" but that may not be easy.  Some people
    are forced into a game like the metal ball in a pinball machine.
    
    Consider a couple: he wants to give her whatever she wants... may
    not know what that is, but tries... she is a game player, and loves
    the game... she makes new rules as quickly as he understands them...
    she pushes and pulls him to get what she wants... she may not even
    know what that is, or ever be satisfied with it... these two are
    very close (live together) and he loves her very much... even with
    all the pain.
    
    this scenario can only result in the destruction of the "he"
    involved... and the destruction of the relationship.   He will not
    wish to end the relationship (the only way to stop playing (TILT))
    because he loves her... and may see that as hurting worse than dealing
    with the games.  She will continue the games in a fit of self
    destruction.  Admittedly, she is sick and needs therapy... he will
    need some therapy as well if he stays in this condition too long.
    
    "He" and "She" are generic terms for two people... their relationship
    is generically love: a husband and wife, child to parent, or two friends.
    This scenario is repeated across our country... it is as generic as
    5/$1 macroni and cheeze.  The "He" does not want to loose the
    relationship and cannot distance himself from "her".  (This would
    be especially true with a parent child scenario and one is "dependant"
    on the other for shelter (ie elder-parent with child)).
     
    I do not know if I have an answer for "him" (in his black and white
    striped suit) but "leaving" the situation... and in his shoes that
    solution is perceived as impossible.
    
    A difficult situation, a difficult problem, any solution?
    
    _bob_: let us hope their are very few games on this note_file.
                
    .......................> dana <..................... 
    

	> ...times and he NEVER missed his turn.  Therefore, he won the game...
    He did ? By whose rules did he "win" ?

		By the "family" rules...and I guess you could say the
		prize was acceptance.  Not for who he is or who I am,
		but for who we were supposed to be.

		
	> ..of lunatic.  REAL people can't be that open and honest.
    	Sure, real people CAN be that open and honest. Trouble is, there
    are so many cynics (moi) in this world, that very few people would
    believe someone who tried to be open and honest. "Openness" and
    "honesty" are very nebulous terms.

		To a degree, some people might try to come across 
		as being the "open and honest" type and they're playing
		another game just doing that.  So it kind of ruins it
		for the person who's really trying.  Yes, VERY nebulous.    
    
>    if you don't play the game right, you lose.  And the hardest part
>    is .... no-one ever tells you the rules.
	
    Part of "the Game" is to figure out the rules. A very canny "counter
    game" is to figure out what the prize is (if someone wins at all)
    and "prevent" the players from winning it.

		The problem here is, why play at all?
    
    The role of a "good friend" is to explain to their "game playing
    friend" that they are destroying themselves, and explain why they
    must 'give up' their game before they destroy themselves with it!

		Ah yes...how many truely "good friends" does one have?
    
    Puzzle Question #167
    "How many 'Game Players' contribute/answer notes regularly ?"
    
 		
		Hey, I'm trying...between working, taking care of the
		kids after work and my social life it's amazing I have
		time to clean the house... ;-)

						

							jean


   

Re: 313.9  
    
    True, there are a lot of situations that appear to have no-win
    choices...but it depends a lot on one's priorities.  If a person
    can't decide what their priorities are, or if their priority is
    the thing that brings them less happiness overall, then they are
    going to feel stuck.  If the choices look like a no-win situation,
    then you're not looking far enough ahead.  You can't pick a path
    if you don't know where you want to be.  Not "be" in the sense of
    'I want to be happy in a relationship with "him"'...but "be" in
    the sense of '*I* want to be happy!'

    To refer back to my "rock symbol"...the person who is on the
    rock is not there out of luck!  It took choices (perhaps some
    were painful), but they got there because it was their priority 
    over other possible situations.  In my opinion, everyone has 
    their own path for getting where they want to go...and no one's 
    path is easier than anyone else's.  We only stay where we are
    because of our choices, or lack of them.

    Priorities that depend on other people changing are useless.  We 
    can choose as many useless goals as we want and be frustrated 
    over them until the end of time.  When we are able to accept 
    that some things just don't work well, then we are more free and
    able to notice the things that DO work well...and be happy for
    the things that didn't.

    Jerri    

    
    
    	Although not the solution nor the best approach, I try to let
    the person play the game with themselves.. I just get up and walk
    away.. I don't like playing the games.. I don't like being caught
    in the middle or getting the guilt trip.. It's easier for me to
    just walk away.. Sure, it bums me out but I can't change the other
    person. I'm just less bummed out by walking away than sitting there
    and taking it..
    
    							mike

    Very interesting topic !  I'm glad it is being discussed in this
    file.
    
    Everyone who has responded seems to have a good grasp of "game
    playing", and what it curtails.  Every day that we live, each one
    of us plays games (although we may not realize it).  Even being
    "open" and "honest" involves game playing to some degree.  As mentioned
    earlier, we should become aware of what types of games we are getting
    into and react accordingly, that is, continue to play the game if
    it is to our advantage, or know how to get out of it before we get
    hurt.
    
    I'd like to suggest a very good book if you're interested in this
    subject more fully.  The book is called "Games People Play".  Another
    one is, "How to read a person like a book".  Both paperbacks have
    been written by the same author, sorry, I forgot his name.  Anyways,
    in both books, the author discusses three ego states, Parent, Adult,
    and Child.  Each of us selects and ego state upon entering a game.
    
    I'ld like to continue with this, but I've got to get to a meeting
    real soon.  Anyways, the book is good reading for all psychology
    buffs.
    
    						- Darrell -
    

    re:  .14
    
    Dr. Eric Berne wrote, "The Games People Play".  
    
    Marilyn
    
    

    When you are most frustrated at the game monger,
    repeat after me:
    
    "God grant me the SERENITY to ACCEPT
    	the things I cannot change,
    COURAGE to change the things I can,  
    and WISDOM to know the difference."
    
    

RE: -.1

I beg your pardon, but I've allways found that saying to be trite...  I can
change anything that I want to, if I want it bad enough...  A lot of times,
though, it just ain't worth it...

Jim.

	Oh, kind of like "Sure, you can do ANYTHING in software, given
	given enough time and money and computer power (and mayhaps a 
	breakthrough or two in theory)"?

	No, I agree with -.2.  You can only "change" something if YOU are 
	doing it and/or in control of it.  You CANNOT change someone else;
	at best you may be able to change your *own* reaction to their behavior
	or your involvement with the situation.

		-hh

    I agree, Helen.  I wonder how many relationships have failed because
    one party thought that, given time, they could change something
    that really bothered them in the other party at the outset of
    the relationship.  Only brainwashing or dictator-like control can
    do that, and neither makes a healthy adult relationship.  People have
    to decide to change themselves under normal circumstances.

    --Louise

RE: -.

"Only brainwashing or dictator-like control can do that, and neither makes a
healthy adult relationship."

See!  It *is* possible!  It just ain't worth it!

It's true though, that pratical wise the only thing you can change is yourself..
Change the way you act, the way you think, the way you see things, give yourself
a frontal lobotomy, etc...

:-} Jim. 

    This is a very interesting topic. My wife and I have had many long
    discussions about game playing. Our conclusion:
    
    People play games because they are afraid (or otherwise unable)
    to deal with people assertively. 
    
    Once you've identified the game (especially negative mind games)
    you can do 2 things:
    
    1. Understand why the person is playing the game, and forgive them
       for whatever nasty stuff they've done to you. (As an aside, I
       feel that this is the only way you can truly forgive somebody.)
    
    2. Get out of the game and leave your slot to somebody else.
    
    There's very little you can do to change somebody else. Especially
    somebody you're not in constant contact with. Telling your parents
    to go get therapy simply will not work.
    
    -Dave

    According to Dr Berne, whose nomenclature we're borrowing, even
    healthy, straightforward, assertive behavior is playing a game. Games
    are methods of interacting that have a protocol, a form, a structure. 
    
    Now then, there are good games and bad games. The way to deal with a
    bad game is to refuse to play, or to start a good one. 
    
    	Jon

Eric Berne's book "Games People Play" (Penguin Books) has several
interesting things to say about this subject.  The original note set me
into thinking about the mind games and I understand it to be talking
about the negative ones,  though Berne does look into the positive
aspects.  His definition of a game is "an ongoing series of
complementary ulterior transactions progressing to a a well defined,
predictable outcome" ...  they are "clearly differentiated from
procedures,  rituals and pastimes by two chief characteristics:  (1)
their ulterior quality and (2) the pay-off".  One has to also bear in
mind that each of the players of a game will be functioning in an ego
state and can be doing this at two different levels,  namely,  the
conscious and subconscious.  The ego-states referred to are those of
"parent",  "adult" and "child" and during the course of any period of
interaction,  all can and will be utilised.

Games are played in the context of a relationship,  and Berne,  and
others,  indicate that the quality of any relation can be placed in a
spectrum that goes through the range:

Withdrawing,  Ritualistic / Ceremonial,  Passing time,  Operating and
manoeuvring,  Game playing,  Being intimate.

Examples of being at each end of the spectrum can be seen in those
situations such as when you enter a lift (elevator) with a crowd of
strangers,  and when into a conversation that allows a free interchange
of thought,  with the lack of threat and ease of confrontation with
realities.

The ultimate in a relationship is attained with intimacy and is not
entered into easily,  even a marriage or parent-child relationship.

Going back to Berne's hypothesis,  in a nutshell,  game-playing is an
avoidance of being intimate.  It is entered into with the players
relating to each other in different ego-states and one or the other (or
even both) having an ulterior motive and looking for a pay-off.  (There
are several examples given in the book which are easy to understand,
such as "Ah,  yes,  but",  etc,  the pay-off is avoiding doing something
that should be done and not having to face up to something seen as
unpalatable).

The answer to game-playing is "don't play them".  This is easier said
than done,  because the initial problem is recognising that a game is
being played - usually the sense of dissatisfaction with a relationship
is an indicator that a game is being played;  and then how do you
effectively terminate it?  One answer is to for one player to move into
the adult ego state and "confront" the other with what is happening -
doing that successfully is difficult because words used can be loaded -
there is a world of difference between saying in an accusing voice "you
are playing games with me" and enquiring in a non-judgemental way "what
is it that you don't want to do?".

The end results of terminating a game can also be significant and
dramatic and care should be taken,  depending upon the value of the
relationship.  One thing that might have to be done is living with the
game being constantly initiated and refusing to play it!  The other
person may not be ready to give up the playing just yet!

    I read an article by Berne, written several years later and published
    in (I think) Pschology Today, in which he contended that since his
    book came out, he'd encountered a new game -- Game Busting.
    
    This kind of player goes around sniffing out other people's games,
    no matter how harmless (remember that not all human interactions
    require intimacy), and attacking them about it.
    
    I wish I remembered more about the article -- it was pretty funny.
    
    --bonnie