Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Well, you can do it yourself - I would certainly recommend that
    over having parents do the arranging.  Probably the first thing
    to do is to pick up a book or two on the subject, and a couple of
    issues of "Bride's" magazine - the latter will have zillions of
    ads for gowns, dresses, tuxes, and other things that will give you
    lots of ideas, plus helpful articles and checklists.
    
    For flower arrangements, visit several area florists and ask them
    for their advice.  Before you do this, know where you'll be having
    the wedding, the number of guests, color of bride's gown, accent
    colors, etc.  Consider whether you want floral centerpieces at the
    reception, etc.  This really isn't that much trouble, but also get
    a good idea of prices before you make any commitments.
    
    Tax breaks?  What are those?  If you and your fiancee work, you'll
    get hit hard on taxes, no matter what you do.  The tax laws are
    very anti-marriage.
    
    Blizzard of details - the checklists and books I suggested earlier
    will help with those.  At this point (a year out), you should
    primarily be thinking about place, exact date, who will officiate,
    and the bride's gown.  The other stuff can wait a few months.
    
    Have fun - I've done it before, and I'll do it again.  Do what YOU
    want, not what someone else (parents, friends, etc.) wants.  It
    will be an event you'll remember the rest of your life, so do it
    right.
    				Steve

    My best advice is to talk about how you visualize the wedding before
    planning anything.  Don't assume that you and your fiancee have
    the same concept of the perfect wedding.
    
    And don't make too much work for yourselves.  Keep it simple.  You
    and Sue aren't going to remember the perfect details of the day
    anyway, so there's no point in devoting a lot of time and attention
    to them -- my opinion only.  I feel money spent in putting on a
    big wedding extravaganza can be better used extending the honeymoon.
    
    Gloria

    I agree with Gloria - don't get too caught up in the fine points.
    And don't worry if not everything goes perfectly - something minor
    always happens, and you're the only ones who will notice.
    
    My preference is for a low-key, "classy" wedding, with family
    and friends, not the traditional "can you top this" glitzy
    extravaganza that is so traditional in some regions.  A wedding
    is a celebration of love, not an exhibit of how much money you
    can spend.  But do spend a bit of money where it counts - on a
    professional photographer, in particular.
    
    				Steve

    There is one piece of advice that I would offer - it is something
    that stood me in good stead at my wedding. I made sure that I liked
    *everything* that the caterers were serving as food i.e. I wouldn't
    accept any combinations (at a cheaper rate) that included anything
    I didn't like. My logic was that by the time I got to get a chance
    to eat anything, if there was something that I didn't like on the
    menu, that was what would be left!
    
    Bonnie J 

    A couple got married.  They, their 4 guests and the minister who was to
    marry them, left the couples log cabin and walked to the top of a
    nearby hill. There they took their marriage vows. The minister gave a
    sermon, which was in, full, "Love one another". 
    
    After this they all walked down the hill to the cabin. The newly wed
    bride cooked bacon and eggs for everbody. Afterwards the newly wed
    groom washed the dishes.  A choice of drinks was on offer, fresh orange
    juice, and fresh goats milk.
    
    Noone made a speech.
    
    The moral:
    
    Do it where YOU want, how YOU want.
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Andy. 

    There is a similar topic in WOMANNOTES (I think). I'll
    repeat what I said there : Don't let the photographer
    turn the whole thing into a photo session, thereby ruining the
    spontaniety of the occasion. If I were marrying, I'd take the
    price of the photographers' fee, use it to buy 10-12 cheap
    polaroids,and a bunch of film. Let all the guests play with 
    the cameras. I'd figure to get a much more intimate 
    memoir of the ceremony and reception from people who see
    each other as individuals, with lots more candid shots
    and personal glimpses. 

    Re: .7
    
    I strongly disagree.  A GOOD professional photographer knows
    how to stay out of your way.  Only the amateurs will ruin your
    wedding like that.
    
    Also, if I were a guest at a wedding, I'd be insulted to be
    handed a camera and be expected to take pictures.  I also know
    that the results would be very disappointing.
    
    I really liked how my first wedding was handled by the photographer.
    We posed for the formal portraits BEFORE the ceremony, in the
    studio (though this may not be feasible for everyone).  He took
    various candids before the ceremony started, then kept away during
    the actual ceremony.  Afterwards, we reenacted a couple of the
    scenes for photos - you'd never know if I didn't tell you.
    At the reception, he was everywhere, taking great shots - his
    experience let him know what to expect and where to be at what
    times.  I sure hope I can find someone as good around here.
    (The photographer the first time was Korday Studios in Framingham,
    MA.)

    You're going to want to look at these pictures for many years
    to come.  Spend the effort and the bit of cash to do it right.
    
    					Steve

    re -.1
    
    I agree ... my wife and I (married 7 months ago) enjoy the pictures
    taken by our friends as much or more than the pictures taken by
    the photographer ....
    
    -dave

     I agree with Steve.  A good phototographer -- one who both takes good
     pictures *and* knows when to stay out of the way -- is well worth the
     price.  At my sister's recent wedding, the formal photos were taken
     before the ceremony and before the guests arrived, and the
     photographer stayed  discreetly in the background as he took (a very
     few) pictures duribng the ceremony and during the reception.
     Obviously, this meant that the main participants saw each other before
     the ceremony, but that was ok with them.  The alternative is an
     invariably painful session immediately after the ceremony, when
     everyone would much rather be at the reception.
     
     --Mr Topaz

    I have to side with the "no professional photographer" camp. Reasons:
    The pro we got for our wedding was definitely the intrusive kind; the
    pictures taken by a couple of friends with 35mm cameras turned out
    better (i.e. more appropriate subjects, more interesting) than the
    pro's; and, most significantly, we didn't really want a full album of
    every permutation of the wedding party. 
    
    We wanted pictures of us with our families and friends, a record of the
    day rather than a frame-able portrait of us in white. We should have
    known, really, that for the sort of thing we wanted, a photographer who
    only quoted prices in terms of the album size was *not* the right one
    for us! If we'd looked around for a more sympathetic photographer we
    might have a different viewpoint. 

    Whatever you want in the way of pictures, you would be well advised
    to shop around, and to be *very* specific when listing your
    requirements. Putting them in writing wouldn't hurt - in fact it
    might be appreciated by those photographers who, after agreeing
    under oath not to take any pictures during the ceremony, are cursed
    later on when "there aren't any shots of us taking our vows..."

    -b
    
    p.s. As it happens, I much prefer a shot of Jim and myself in 
    Victorian costume to our wedding portrait - we look rather like
    Victoria and Albert, which is inappropriate but fun!

    
    
    	I agree that a pro IS the way to go for shots that have to
    	be set up but that is not always do-able. I took all the shots
    	at my sisters wedding. If I do say so myself, they came out
    	pretty good. (The place that develops my stuff said "For an
    	amateur, you did a EXCELLENT job")  My sister couldn't afford
    	a pro. They wanted to use the money for other things. My Mom
    	lives right next door to his parents so they had a garden wedding
    	in his parents yard and the reception in my Moms yard. It was
    	the best and most fun wedding I've ever been too.
    
    	If anyone is on a budget I'll be glad to take the shots cheap.
   	:-) 
    
    							mike

    If you are going to have your reception catered, I would suggest
    that you try asking your caterer for advice.  After ten or twenty
    years in the business, they've learned quite a bit.
    
    					Ann B., whose family has been
    					in the catering business for
    					over a century

    When we got married (8 years ago September, working on forever),
    we decided to be really radical and have a good time at our wedding.
    So we did it the way we liked, without consulting any 'how-to' books.
    (Emily Post wasn't invited and no one else on the guest list would
    care if we didn't do everythign "right"!)
    
    We didn't have much money, so we decided that instead of spreading what
    we had thin or going into debt to impress a lot of acquaintances, we'd
    only invite family and close friends for a simple ceremony followed by
    a nice, small dinner at a nice, reasonably priced local restaurant
    where our families could get acquainted, etc.  We had a total of about
    20 relatives and close friends for the reception. (We discovered that
    for a party of that size, a restaurant's 'group' price is often
    competetive with a caterer's price per person. )
    
    Since he's Jewish and I'm Lutheran, we wrote our own wedding ceremony
    combining our favorite aspects of both religions. Both families
    escort the bridal couple in the Jewish ceremony, for example -- no
    giving the bride away. And no promises of obedience.  
    
    We couldn't afford a photographer, so we asked two of our friends who
    we knew were competent amateur photographers to take the pictures; we
    paid for film and developing.  (They came out far better than our
    friends' professional pictures, by the way.  And the photographer's
    before-the-ceremony-at-the-studio procedure caused the bride to be half
    an hour late . . . ) 

    We didn't have a formal "wedding" cake, just a pretty cake with
    yellow roses from one of the better local bakeries.  (When we ordered
    the cake, we didn't mention that it was for a wedding.  We just
    said we needed a plain cake that would feed about 30 people, decorated
    with yellow flowers, and that's what they made us.  When we picked
    it up and the baker discovered it was for a wedding, he tried to
    raise the price from $23 to $63 since it was a "wedding cake"!)
    
    I bought my dress at a formal shop's spring sale. I still wear it
    on the rare occasions when I attend a formal dance. 
    
    All of which brings to mind the memory of the wedding of one of
    my college chums, who was the daughter of a very wealthy southern
    California orthodontist. She was attending formal parties with a
    thousand guests when she was 15 or 16, so when she decided to have
    a simple wedding . . . that meant only 300 guests, in the afternoon
    in the garden rather than in the evening in the ballroom (yes, they
    had a ballroom), little creampuffs shaped like swans and filled
    with liver pate instead of caviar, no train on her $700 dress. Et
    cetera. She confided to a couple of us that her aunt was deeply
    disappointed that her father would allow his only daughter to be
    married in such a "shabby" manner . . .
    
    --bonnie

    
    My advice is relax and enjoy it! It is a lot of fun to be engaged
    and to be the focus of a lot of attention for a happy reason.
    
    I planned my Chicago wedding from Boston, and it wasn't as hard
    as I thought it would be.  Just nail down the important things (like
    the church, reception hall, etc.) first and the other stuff will
    fall into place.  A good band is nice to have - we picked ours in
    about 1 hour at a video music place where bands send tapes (they
    don't seem to have this in Boston - I think its a great idea!).
    
    I ordered invitations through the mail - I figured it wasn't worth
    my time to go around to a bunch of stationery stores. I sent for
    catalogs of them through Bride's magazine.
    
    One thing we did that I liked was we had the wedding and reception
    videotaped.  I wasn't totally happy with the quality of the tape
    after we got it (the sound went out at some key parts) but it is
    great to see everything "in action" and to have a record for our
    kids.
    
    Again, relax! And don't believe everything you read in those books!
    
    Caroline

    re: .0
    
    	I was lucky enough to have TWO "amatuer" photographers at my
    wedding....one was a friend of my fathers who does photography 
    professionally, and the other was my uncle-in-law who takes pic-
    tures for the Globe. Both did execellent portfolios for nothing,
    only offering the pictures as a wedding present! Great, huh?
    
    	My wedding wasnt a "traditional" affair, either. Since all of
    the members of my family play instruments (and LOVE to get together
    to play jam sessions, by the way!), I had them play at the wedding.
    My new brother-in-law also just started a disc-jockey business,
    and had all of the equipment. So, we interspersed the music so that
    it played continuously! When my brother-in-law wanted to take a
    break, my family took over...and vice versa.
    
    	For food, I had cold buffets. I dont know if I said this before
    in this note, but I and my husband both wanted to pay for our own
    wedding. We felt that it isn't right asking for my parents or his
    parents to pay for it...but they did chip in anyway. Since we didn't
    have much money, we did the best with what we could afford. And
    to this day, I have yet to come accross either a friend or relative
    that didnt have a good time...they had such a good time that they
    partyed from 12 noon to about 9pm!!
    
    Linda

    
   An Add-on to .17;
    
    	I sang the blues at my own wedding....appropriate huh?
    
    	Just kidding, we've been married 4 years now and I just
    recently had our first child, a girl!

>   An Add-on to .17;
>    
>    	I sang the blues at my own wedding....appropriate huh?
>    
>    	Just kidding, we've been married 4 years now and I just
>    recently had our first child, a girl!


	Point of clarity here:


	We assume the "just kidding" refers to the "sang the blues",
	and is to mean that actually your marriage is going
	quite well.

	We further assume that "married 4 years" and "had our first child"
	are indication that indeed marriage is going well.

	But this isn't necessarily true.  Many people have been married
	4 years and are miserable.

	And many people have a child and didn't want it so that's not
	a good indication either.

I merely point this all out because so often we talk to each other
and have conversations like "how are you" "fine" or "how's the marriage"
	"oh fine we just had a baby girl!" when in actuality there are
difficult situations or tensions at hand.

/Eric

A few of the last replies remind me of some of the finer details of my
wedding, which I'd like to share.  In this case, however, the marriage is
no longer around, but soon I will be planning my second wedding.

The ceremony and reception were held at my parents' house.  The money that
normally would have gone toward renting a hall went toward painting the house,
re-gravelling the driveway, and buying a new oven.  The food was a catered hot
buffet, an "official" wedding cake, and many homemade unofficial desserts.  I
was the only one in traditional wedding attire; nobody wore a tux, and my
sister, the sole female attendant, wore a long gown of her choice.  The ceremony
and reception were both outside.  The groom's parents walked him from the front
of the house to the side, where the ceremony was held, and my parents walked
me.  No sexism here :-)

A friend of the family was the "official" photographer.  He sent us all the
pictures as part of his wedding present.  We also had 3 or 4 other guests taking
pictures, one of whom was actually holding the chupah (sp?), the canopy which
was held over us during the ceremony.  Everyone sent us copies of their prints,
and we created our own album.  It was wonderful not having to pick and choose
which prints we wanted, and we had so many priceless candid pictures.

My cousin, who plays the flute professionally, played the processional (?),
"Sunrise, Sunset", and also played a few times during the ceremony.  At one
point the rabbi asked her to play something and she replied "but I was just
about to cry!"  We audio-taped the ceremony; I guess video-taping wasn't big
enough then.

Oh, and the most important recommendation I'd make to anyone getting married--
Tell your friends they can decorate your car to their hearts delight with
balloons, tin cans, etc, but if they use shaving cream you'll sue them!  Our
car had FOOBAR along the side and LEMON across the hood until we painted it!
The shaving cream apparently did a wonderful job of cleaning off twelve years
of dirt from selected areas...

Jill

    
    gather all the ideas that you like from notes and friends (wherever)
    and utilize as you see fit. Any neato ideas that you don't use durng
    your first wedding can be used atany of the following weddings.
    If something doesn't work very well at one wedding you can eliminate
    it from consideration for all future weddings......!
    

        <<< QUARK::DISK$QUARK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMAN_RELATIONS.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'? >-
================================================================================
Note 306.19                Advice On Getting Married                    19 of 21
VIDEO::OSMAN "type video::user$7:[osman]eric.six"    30 lines   4-JUN-1987 10:56
                        -< marriage might be fine but >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>   An Add-on to .17;
>    
>    	I sang the blues at my own wedding....appropriate huh?
>    
>    	Just kidding, we've been married 4 years now and I just
>    recently had our first child, a girl!


***Point of clarity here:

***	We assume the "just kidding" refers to the "sang the blues",
***	and is to mean that actually your marriage is going
***	quite well.

    	Yes, in fact it is. And, I LOVE to kid!

***    	We further assume that "married 4 years" and "had our first child"
***	are indication that indeed marriage is going well.

    	Yes, in fact it is (or do you happen to read something in here
    	that indicates otherwise? If so, you're mistaken!)

***	But this isn't necessarily true.  Many people have been married
***	4 years and are miserable.

    	Poor thing, I feel sorry for your relationship..
    
***	And many people have a child and didn't want it so that's not
***	a good indication either.

    	It seems to me from this reply, that this person's had a marriage
    	with children that didnt work out. I'm sorry to hear that...
    
***    I merely point this all out because so often we talk to each other
***    and have conversations like "how are you" "fine" or "how's the marriage"
***	"oh fine we just had a baby girl!" when in actuality there are
*** 	difficult situations or tensions at hand.

        To the person who orignated this note (306.0), dont listen to
    	these types of replies. You will invariably hear all of the
    	bad things about marriage...it seems to be the "in" thing to
    	do - commisurate with someone who hasn't even gotten married
    	yet! I know, I had to listen to these types of people here before
    	I got married...And all of the people who were advising me against
    	it were divorced and playing the swinging singles game! (And
    	being even more miserable at that!) You dont get a balanced view 
    	of things when you only get to listen to that one side of the 
    	situation. You have to remember that marriage, as in friendship, 
    	has its high points and low points. If the two of you work
	together, and love, like, and respect each other enough, you will 
    	get over the relatively few low points with no problem. 
    

The very best of luck to you! Congratulations!
    
-    Linda
    

RE: -.1

Now wait just a moment...

Eric has a valid point...  There's no call to be making your own assumptions
about his marriage...

RE: .0

I think that you would benefit from listening to those who have tried and
failed; learn from their mistakes...  take your time!  Listen to everybody...
You still will not be "prepared".  Good or bad, the only way to know what
marriage is like is to be married, and each marriage is different.  A far second
place is the only other marriage you may have had any experience - your parent's
marriage.

Ask all those questions of yourself, and of each other.  Work at it!  And if it
does not work out, then it's better left undone.  Some marriages are not meant
to be...

Jim. 

    re: .-1
    
    	No, I'm not "hot under the collar", but I do get puzzled
    when someone replies in such a manner to an obviously happy 
    note! I certainly didn't expect THAT reply when I announced 
    that I just had a girl! I was expecting a more up-beat response 
    than that. You know, something on the order of "Congratulations"...!??

    GEE WHIZ! Maybe we ought to think about re-titling this end of the 
    note...?
    
    DO me a favor, start back on the vien this note started off on;
    ie. how to plan for a wedding? This is taking a really wierd turn...
    

        Linda

        I'll have to admit that I find a couple of the past few notes
        overly pessimistic. 
        
        I have said many times in this file that a good marriage is hard
        work, and I think that that part of marriage should be strongly
        pointed out in advice about marriage. Similarly, I think a good
        number of failed marriages were doomed at the outset as the
        couple failed to ask the right question and to set their
        commitments and expectations at day 1. I would also say that
        you shouldn't marry until you've had at least one big fight,
        so that you know that you agree on the etiquette of fighting.
        
        All that being said, however, marriage should be a joyous and
        exciting thing as should the birth of a child. Both events
        should be received with glad hearts and high hopes, and strong
        commitrments. "Congratulations" is indeed the proper response to
        both .0, which announced an impending wedding, and to .18 which
        announced the birth of a baby girl and the completion of 4 years
        of a marriage that is obviously a happy one.
        
        The reactions that have showed up strike me as overly Eyore-ish.
        (Those of you not up enough on your Pooh to understand the
        reference to the venerable old gray donkey should read more to
        your children, spouses, significant others or yourselves.)
        
        JimB.

        RE: .0, .18
        
                               Congratulations!
        
        JimB.

    re: .26
    
    	Thats more like it!! Congrats again, .0!
    
    Linda
    

    I'd like to open this topic again.  I am getting married July 1,
    1989.  
    
    I would love it if anyone could give some ideas of some unique
    wedding experiences or just some good hints!!
    
    Denise
    

    Re: .28
    
    Not that I've had a wedding, but from what I've seen, you should
    plan on having about one crisis per day.  They'll all get resolved
    by various means, so don't let it throw you too much.

    Don't take it too seriously.
    
    The ceremony where you make your commitment to your honey is the
    important part.  Take that seriously.  
    
    The reception afterwards is just a party where you and your family
    and friends celebrate the joy your union brings. It may be a very
    large party and it may be a very important party, but if you think
    of it as a party instead of as part of the ceremony, you'll worry
    a lot less about who sits where and more about whether everybody
    will have a good time.
    
    --bonnie 

    
    
    
    
                      D  O  N ' T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Re: .31
    
    
    I hope the "don't" was not in relation to getting married...
    
    although I B*tch about its negatives, and complain about all its
    negatives... there is a lot of positives...  and a don't for you
    or I or someone else, might not be a don't for them... just like
    it might not be a don't for you someday...

    Just a two cents worth reply....

    
    go ahead, get married...
    just realize that it might not last forever...
    and that's ok.
    you might grow apart...
    or just stop loving each other...
    cus that happens...
    often
    and that's ok...
    just realize that someday you might leave him/her
    or she/she might leave you...
    and that's ok cus everyone has a right to try to keep
    themselves happy which usually means being in love
    but doesn't have to mean that....
    
    plan on sharing and caring during the marriage
    and recognize that, should it end, it's far better to accept
    the end and try to continue as friends...
    who still share and still care....
    
    if it does end....which happens...often...
    be forgiving and understanding...
    if you don't love as lovers any more you can continue to
    love as friends....
    and that will help ease whatever pain you may have to face...
    
    enjoy the marriage!
    as long as it lasts!
    don't plan on it's demise....
    but recognize that it could end....
    know what you own!
    know what you don't own!
    keep your friends and keep your career!
    take care of each other and make sure you can take care
    of yourself!
    
   you may have more than one marriage in your life...
    that's ok.
    each time you find love...enjoy it!
    accept it!
    but make sure you never lose the love of yourself
    the love for yourself...
    
    cus relationships come and go....
    buy you're stuck with yourself forever....

    good luck
    

    Denise-
    
    I just got married in May 88, and something I did was made reservations
    at a small(held 130 guests) midevial chapel (VERY quaint). Had a
    candle light ceremony (6:00 pm), the wedding party dressed 1890's
    (approx) and we had a harpist for music.  The flowers were purple
    & pink (romantic).  My then future husband turned up his nose when
    he got around to asking me what I had planned (he didn't want to
    be involved in the details at first-cold feet!), but when he realized
    I wasn't asking what he wanted anymore, he got nervous (it was too
    late by then). Some friends video taped the whole thing (lasted
    about 20 minutes), which I would recommend.  We hired a friend to
    do pictures, so we got more natural shots.
    
    The end product was a VERY quaint, romantic wedding, that wasn't
    major league expensive.  Everyone REALLY, REALLY, enjoyed the harpist
    music (funny, considering the husband thought it was dumb).
    
    My advice is: don't lose sight of what the ceremony is for.  Wedding
    stuff is a racket, it can get EXPENSIVE and out of control QUICKLY.
    Splurge on what really matters to you, control the rest or you will
    be more depressed than happy.

    I forgot the most important detail: keep a wedding notebook to keep
    track of every detail (call me compulsive).  Let me know if you
    want more info on the notebook idea.

    Re: .34
    
    Your wedding sounds like it was beautiful!!  You have great taste!
    I love the idea of a harpist playing the wedding music.  We would
    like to have 2 violinists play the wedding march.  I don't like
    the traditional organ music.
    
    Fortunately, my fiance is as excited as I am and has been with me
    during all of the arrangements.  We are not getting caught up in
    all of the "extras" that most places try to "recommend."  It can
    quickly turn into major bucks!!  
    
    Thanks for sharing that with me.
    
    Denise
    
    P.S.  I am keeping a Wedding Notebook.  It helps keep things in
          order.
    

    I will be married in 7 weeks!!!!!!!!!  The worst part of planning...
    is money... isn't it always?
                                                                        
    We are having a very formal wedding - the Works!!!!!  But it is
    not only a wedding, it is also a goodbye to alot of people.  I will
    be relocating to Deerfield Beach, Florida, the day after I get married.
                                                             
    Everything Bob and I have gone through is more than worth it.  I
    am going to have the wedding that I have always dreamed of having
    and it's going to be the most special time of my entire life.
    
    It may not be worth it to alot of people to "spend" alot on a wedding,
    but it's not everyday that you have the chance to plan out something
    so special... a day that's just to celebrate your new life, your
    day.  
    
    Also,  if you don't plan that your marriage will be forever, then
    what's the point of getting married in the first place?
    
    Tammie