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Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

302.0. "Gary's judgment questionable" by MARCIE::JLAMOTTE (I'm Different) Thu May 07 1987 19:36

    As a companion piece to "Gary, Donna and Lee" I would like to discuss
    how much would you conform to get what you want.  How much would
    you consider other people's opinions before you took a course of
    action?  We have touched this in other subjects....
    
    I suggest that if Gary Hart wanted the presidency bad he would have
    known that his friendship with Donna would jeopardize the votes
    he needed to reach his goal.
    
    In real life we face smaller dilemna's....
    
    Would I come out of the closet if I were gay?  I don't know...
    
    Do I dress for success?  Somewhat...
    
    I as a professional am concerned about what other people think....and
    as a supervisor I advise my staff that the impression they create
    can be very important to their career.
    
    Thoughts....
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302.1What's normal anyway...SHIRE::SLIDSTERFinally gettin' there...Fri May 08 1987 07:2839
    Ahhh... a subject close to my heart as "conforming" and being aware
    of other people's opinions is one of my current "smaller dilemmas"
    
    I believe it is very difficult to conciously change yourself and
    during that process of change one can have some very uncomfortable
    moments but I also believe that a lot of what we regard as conforming
    is really changeable depending on the situation. For example, in
    the UK it is expected that people will dress comparitively smartly
    (shirt, tie etc) and I would not go into my UK office in jeans and
    a T-shirt. Some time ago, I was seconded to one of the European
    offices where dress is much more relaxed (I very rarely wear a tie,
    let alone a suit !). Since I am now used to working in Geneva, I
    can go into my UK office wearing anything I like (within reason)
    because I am conforming to my "norm" - not theirs. I actually get
    some comments but they don't seem to stick.
    
        I definately believe that dress is important if you wish
    to progress in any organisation (Computer companies, in my experience
    seem to be slightly more relaxed than most). Considering other people's
    opinions is harder but decisions should be based on what the "business"
    requires not what the individual(s) would prefer. As long as a tough
    or unpopular decision is explained properly, then most individuals
    would understand and comply.
    
        On a personal level, I am trying to conform slightly less and
    consider people a little more for a while because that is not the
    normal "working" me. I'm finding it sometimes uncomfortable but
    quite interesting. Where it will lead me to - I'm not quite sure
    but I feel it may make me more content "all round" - I won't know
    until I've got to where I think I want to be but the driving force
    behind it is that by conforming to what are the usual norms I feel 
    I have reached as far as I want to go for me "personally".
                               
        Only time will tell. 
    
    be lucky,
    
    Steve
    
302.2QUARK::LIONELWe all live in a yellow subroutineFri May 08 1987 10:433
    Well, Gary has quit now, so we can discuss the issue in the
    abstract.
    				Steve
302.3APEHUB::STHILAIREFri May 08 1987 17:1218
    Re .0, by telling your staff that the way they dress will have an
    impression on their career you are perpetuating the notion that
    the style in which a person dresses indicates how well they can do
    a certain job.  This is obviously ridiculous.  I could put on a
    conservative business suite and carry a briefcase but it doesn't
    mean I know the first thing about being a product manager, for example.
     On the other hand, if I had the experience and knowledge, if I
    chose to wear black leather and chains to give a presentation, my
    outfit would not make my expertise less valid.  I know the world
    is like this.  I just think it would be more fun if it wasn't. 
    I think people should be able to wear whatever they want to work
    (except for pajamas or bathing suits) regardless of their job.
    
    I guess people have to decide what's more important to them - playing
    the game in order to reap certain rewards or being true to themselves.
    
    Lorna
    
302.4Dress as set and settingDSSDEV::BURROWSJim BurrowsFri May 08 1987 18:5785
        The way in which a person dresses DOES affect how well they can
        do a certain job, *IF* that job requires communicating with or
        persuading other people--and most of our jobs do require it to
        some extent.
        
        An important aspect of communicating with people is to make them
        comfortable and receptive, to set their expectations in a
        positive way so that they will receive what you say the way you
        intend it. A lot of our expirience of the world is subjective--
        we interpret the world rather than perceive it directly. This
        means that our expectations and our previous experience has a
        lot to do with what we think we see and hear. Because ofthis it
        is important to set positive expectations when trying to convey
        something. 
        
        In the sixties, the Timothy Leary crowd used to talk a lot about
        "set and setting" and how important they were to the quality of
        a "trip". By "set" they meant "mind set"--your state of mind,
        your emotional state, your attitudes and expectations. By
        "setting" they meant the environment you were in, whether it was
        secure and friendly or hostile. Set and setting were, they
        claimed, absolutely vital to determining whether you had a good
        trip or a bummer. Well, set and setting afect not only our
        experiences under the effects of halucinogenic drugs but our
        every day experience. 
        
        How you dress affects the set and setting of those you interact
        with. It sets the expectations and the emotional tone--the other
        person's mind set. Your appearence is also a part of the overall
        environment--their setting--and yours. It can also affect how
        you feel about yourself. It can make you feel more hostile or
        comfortable or vulnerable. 
        
        If you give a presentation in a business suit, people will
        expect a business-like presentation. That can mean both a
        professional one and a conventional one. It can be good or bad.
        If you wear black leather and chains it may make them think of
        Hell's Angles, Mad Max or the Terminator. It is likely to make
        them expct you to be hostile, self confident, and inconsiderate
        of others. 
        
        Personally, I like to try to view the world as devoid of
        expectations as possible. I find that I am happier and have more
        fun if I enjoy my experiences as they come rather than try to
        fit them into a box. I find that when I have few expectations I
        am more open to see the real merits of a thing rather than my
        own biases. I am more likely to really consider the thing and to
        think.
        
        My own dress and style are somewhat calculated, although they
        might not appear it at first. (They are also very much for my
        own comfort and enjoyment.) When I know I'm going to a meating
        or making an in-house presentation, I wear one of my hand-made
        billowy-sleaved 19th century Missouri boatman's shirts. (I used
        to wear a velvet or velour tunic based on a 13th century pattern
        that my wife and I evolved to take account of modern things like
        zippers.) I may wear relatively new jeans, but am more likely to
        wear casual slacks. My hair is long (shoulder to waist length).
        
        Few people dress like me. It doesn't fall into a mold. It sets
        no strong specific expectations. The general cut of the shirts
        is a bit flamboyant or rakish. The handiwork represents a good
        deal of effort and pride. The overall impression is a little
        eccentric. The hair is pretty much ex-hippy. Although I look a
        bit odd, there's nothing to indicate hostility or serious
        disaffection from society.
        
        People expect me to be a little eccentric--and I am. Innocuous
        eccentricity is often paired in our minds with genius, either
        intellectual or artistic. They expect me to be creative and
        unconventional. Beyond that they don't know what to expect,
        except perhaps the unexpected. They often end up seeing me as I
        am, with perhaps a slightly positive bias.
        
        The point is that dressing for success and image are important,
        but cookie-cutter conformity isn't always the only or the best
        image you can try to project. Minor eccentricities, especially
        ones with a positive conotation, can work to your advantage. The
        practical truth is that we help to build perceptual and
        experiential world that we live in. People believe that the
        world is the way they see it, and how they see it is colored by
        whatthey think and expect. We can make those expectations work
        for us or against us.
        
        JimB. 
302.5What's wrong with swim suits or pajamas? :-)YODA::BARANSKI1's & 0's, what could be simpler?!Fri May 08 1987 23:580
302.6In New England?RAJA::BROOMHEADDon't panic -- yet.Mon May 11 1987 11:303
    We have barely recovered from a snowstorm, and this man asks a
    question like that!  Tscha!
    							Ann B.
302.7Costume Party? Guess who I think I am.TEMPE1::LARSENFri Jun 12 1987 04:1839
    
    I too have been somewhat interested by the way my appearance
    affected my interactions with others.  I lost 50 pounds and 
    was fascinated with the change in my interactions. Pro and 
    Con.  I took a job as a Field Service Engineer and was required
    to wear the suit and tie.  More interesting data gathered. I
    was sometimes enraged by how I was pigeon holed but soon learned
    to use this benign (sp?) form of bigotry to my advantage. 
    
    I came to DEC from Hewlett Packards largest site in of all places,
    Boise, Idaho.  They have an interesting policy of no offices for
    anyone, management by "wandering" around, and no suits.  They did
    this in an attempt to eliminate the office games and cliques that
    they believed to be so counter productive and detrimental to the
    overall moral.  It became almost a contest to see who could come
    in dressed the frumpiest.  I found it an interesting experiment
    and learning experience.  Depending on what level you talked to you
    would get different responses to its affectiveness.  I found it
    counter productive and attitude degrading.  The barriers were still
    very much there with some managers while others used this approach
    to foster comradery and open communication channels.
    
    While there, I had a good friend that looked like he was a graduate
    of the Hells Angle School of charm.  Rooms would actually fall dead
    quiet when he would enter.  Really.  We took turns exploring each
    others worlds and associates.  We never ceased to be amazed at the
    contrast between who we really were and what others precieved us
    as. Society's preoccupation with appearance was bewildering and
    fascinating.  He also had the best character (there's an old word)
    of anyone Ive ever known and I was proud to ask him to be my best
    man sans tux.
    
    Ive enjoyed opinions shared thus far and would like to read what
    others feel about this costume party we are in, called life.  
    
    gary -