Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The neighborhood I grew up in had quite a mix of people, also, so
    I never knew much about discrimination until I was in college (where
    I looked pretty silly for not knowing what groups the various
    derogatory names referred to - no one I knew called people things
    like "wops", "frogs",...).  When my brother and I were small, we
    spent one vacation on Cape Cod.  In the town we were renting a cabin
    in, there was a laundromat (useful when you are travelling with two
    grade-school-age messy kids like us).  My mother was very proud
    of me for pointing out the sign over the laundromat door and asking
    her (in my typically loud, clear-as-a-bell voice -- I was born with
    it, folks!) how come we were only allowed to wash white clothes
    there!   I guess she saw this as a sign of victory in raising a
    modern, liberal-minded kid.
    
    I happened to find the same laundromat a few years ago when I visited
    the Cape for a weekend.  It is still a a laundromat, but the sign
    is gone.  I guess this is progress...
    
    I don't have any answers for you on what to do about discrimination,
    though!  I'd like to think that education would help, but I know
    plenty of educated bigots, too.  Laws can help, but it is easy to
    end up with absurdities of reverse-discrimination where you MUST
    hire minority people to fill a quota, even if it means hiring totally
    unqualified people (or qualified ones who are unhappy that they
    were hired for a quota rather than because of their qualifications).
    Discrimination seems to be part of the human psyche.  Sigh...

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Note 300.0                       What CAN We Do?                      No replies
PENNSY::ELEE                                         41 lines   6-MAY-1987 12:52
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    In my opinion, the first step that should be taken involves reexamining
    commonly held practices and beliefs that seem on the surface unrelated
    to institutionalized racism and prejudice.  How many times have
    you walked into a record store and strolled past the "black music"
    section?  How often have you viewed documentaries on the plight
    of minority youths and stopped before considering the hopelessness
    they must feel and the appalling lack of successful role models for
    them to admire and emulate?  (And please don't point out some sports
    figure; try to think of a minority scientist or businessman.
    Difficult, isn't it?)
    
    Consider the irony of the white man who wouldn't want to work for
    a Hispanic but goes to cheer for one at the next baseball game.
    Need I mention the baseball V.P. who voiced on national television
    that he just felt that blacks didn't have what it takes to manage
    a professional baseball team?  Our society still finds it more
    acceptable (less threatening?) for minorities to be successful in
    sports and entertainment than in business and science.  Apparently,
    it's just fine as long as "they" know their place and don't overstep
    the understood boundaries.
    
    We as a society have taken strides to fight overt racism.  By and
    large, such displays are not acceptable, not tolerated, and are
    prohibited by law.  Unfortunately, the institutionalized racism
    that prevails in our society and in our hearts is not so easily
    excised or regulated.  As a black man with aspirations in a technical
    field, I have often had cause to remember advice given me by my
    father:  "Son, you've got to work twice as hard and be twice as
    good as the next guy."  And I am sad to say that for many minorities,
    this is still the case in the struggle to gain credibility and respect
    in "the white man's world."
    
    I am not bitter, but many have become bitter and without hope. 
    They see a future that looks as bleak as today and no way to effect
    change.  What can we do to help?  I wish I knew.  I know that for
    myself, I feel I have an obligation to at least try to effect change
    in my community.  And if through my efforts, I inspire someone to
    pursue their dreams, my efforts will not have been in vain.
    
    					Eric Lee

    Prejudice and Racism doesn't have to be coloured; when I lived in
    New York City in the early 70's, the prejudice of the Madrin speaking
    chinese towards the Cantonese speaking chinese was ever so visible.
    Total rudeness and overt gestures were present when you walked between
    them.
    
    The 60 minutes report of the life boat rescue folks of Land's end,
    England showed the hatred and prejudice of the folks living in the
    cove for the more well todo folks living less than half way up the
    hill.
    
    Freedom requires that we overcome the issues of racism and learn
    to respect each other's values.
    
    /cal hoe
    

    re .2 Hi Eric!
    
    re .3 inter-asian prejudice
    
    You're right about the long-standing hatred between many groups
    of oriental peoples.  I think one of the reasons "we" are less aware
    of t is that it can be extremely dfficult for a caucasian to tell
    the difference between a cambodian and a vietnamien and a chinese
    etc by looking at them.  I had an oriental roomate who I thought
    was japanese.  Of course, he was chinese and said, "do I look japanese
    to you?"  I started looking around to see if I could notice any
    physical difference between the japanese people I knew and the chinese.
     Yes, there were differences, but they didn't seem to group themselves
    around anything, much less around whether they were japanese or
    chinese.  They all seemed pretty much like individuals to me...

    Lee

	re .2:
	
	"black music" - When I was on the high school radio station,
	we had "specialty shows" for certain kinds of music, one in
	particular changed its name just about annually to match what
	the trade journals were calling it - "soul", "R&B", and
	finally "Black-oriented music". Basically, the category
	consisted of anything performed by black musicians which
	wasn't clearly classifiable as "rock" or "jazz". They'd
	probably still classify Lionel Ritchie there, even though
	there's nothing inherently "blacker" about his music than
	Barry Manilow's. Anyway, just about nothing in the "black" bin
	got played on our radio station outside of the specialty shows
	(to be fair, the country bin suffered the same fate), although
	a fair amount of folk and jazz (mainly fusion) got mixed in
	with the basic progressive rock format. Jean-Luc Ponty was
	particularly popular...
	
	In our society, there aren't many role models for anyone
	outside the sports and entertainment fields. I suppose a black
	president and a black network anchorperson would go a long way
	towards supplying those role models. But how many scientists
	or businessmen of any color can your average American name?
	The pickings get slim after Carl Sagan (or maybe before:-). I
	do think the sports and entertainment figures play a very
	important part as role models, but as you say we need others
	too.

	There's an excellent article on racism in Sports Illustrated
	this week, written by Reggie Jackson. He tells of his own
	experiences, and his ideas to deal with the problems within
	baseball. His grand plan is to make himself into that business
	role model you are seeking, buying an interest in a major
	league team and bringing a number of former players he
	respects (black, hispanic, and white) into management
	positions. He also says much what you say in your last
	paragraph - that he feels obligated to try to bring about some
	change. 
	
	Mike

    when I was in the army, after ojt in Augusta Georgia, I took a bus
    from georgia to colorado(thought I'd see the country), on one step
    of the journey, in Lousianna, the bus took a break,(no bathroom
    on the bus) I was in an emergency mode to find a bathroom quick.
    I ran into one that I saw womens on the door, and there was a black
    lady attendant there who stopped me, told me I couldn't use this
    bathroom because it was *colored* only.  I begged that my eyes were
    turning yellow and please, I'd be anything she wanted me to be if
    she would just let me use the facilities.  Since no one was around
    but the two of us, she scouted the hallway etc, she let me go. 
    when I was done she had to scout again to make sure noone would
    see me leave the bathroom, I gave her a quick hug, and ran like
    hell.  I had never in my life been somewhere that I had to play
    007 to use the bathroom.  

    also on this trip, at one point I was the only passenger on the
    bus, the busdriver and I had been talking for most of the trip,
    he knew I was going to germany and homesickness for the USA was
    already in my mind.  He decided to have engine trouble on this one
    back road, we stopped at this little bitty farm that was having
    a pig roast.  So we stopped and picniced with the large gathering,
    and had a wonderful time.  I felt like Steve Martin trying to learn
    the different songs of the south and joined in with my mouth harp
    (twang twang)  it's a memory I cherish, being welcomed, feed till
    I was in a stupor and loaded on the bus amid much hugging and tears.
    the bus was a few hours late, but geez I remember that time with
    a smile.....
    
    vivian

    I believe, or else we just get steamrolled or become part of the
    problem.
    
    MM

    
         Just for kicks, I try to ignore my natural preconceptions of
    people and see what happens.
    
                                 Bubba
    

	without permission from today's Boston Globe, p.3:
	
	President Reagan paid tribute yesterday to black scientists,
	businessmen, and military heroes and said that "if black
	Americans are to progress socially and economically" they must
	become part of "the great technological changes now sweeping
	our country and the world."
	
	In his first speech to a black institution of higher learning,
	the president told a commencement audience at Tuskegee
	University that it was "crucial" for young black Americans to
	become scientist, physicists, and mathematicians.
	
	Reagan said that rather than focus on the achievements of
	black athletes and entertainers, as he has sometimes done,
	"it is high time the media and the rest of America began
	paying more attention" to the successes of black
	professionals.
	
	"We must be concerned about the perception children of every
	race are developing about themselves and about others," Reagan
	said. "Certainly, problems in the black community cannot be
	covered up or ignored, yet rather than dwelling almost
	exclusively on the negative, let's make certain our children
	see stories of black successes and triumps."
	
	...
	
	The article goes on to discuss Reagan's past history regarding
	civil rights, and the history of Tuskegee.
	
	Mike

    re: -.1
    
    Do you REALLY think he believes those words, or was it just the
    right speech at the right time in the right place?
    
    Eric

	My instincts tend towards cynicism (which I'm trying to stifle
	these days, even when it comes to Reagan:-), and what he said
	isn't very consistent with his history. But I do prefer to
	give people the benefit of the doubt. It is difficult in this
	case, and in my heart I don't believe Reagan believes what he
	was saying. If it had come at a time when the Adminstration
	was taking heat on racial issues my cynicism would be a much
	clearer winner. Regardless of the motivation, the words are
	good and he (or his script-, uh, speech-writer) deserve some
	credit.
	
	Mike

    I think the only way Reagan is going to get the minorities (be they
    racial, gender, etc...) into the professional positions he speaks
    of is to stop cutting off their educational financial aid.  A good
    many deserving students of all backgrounds don't get the education
    they need to develop their abilities and fulfill their potential.
     As it is now, the US is falling behind in the area of technology, 
    and will continue to do so until more funding is made available to
    students, and higher salaries draw higher caliber people to the
    teaching profession.
    
    As for prejudice and racism, there is nothing I dislike more than
    seeing minorities "live down to their stereotypes".  Sometimes there
    is no reason why certain people act exactly as they're labeled -
    other than the fact that they know they will be treated as such
    - so why not act that way.....or maybe they figure it's too big
    a battle to fight.  I agree that role models are needed - but it
    will be very important to emphasize that children from ALL parts
    of the city - not just the upper-middle-class - can attain these
    goals, and in doing so they will help stop the cancer of prejudice
    and racism from growing/poisoning us any further.
    
    -Jody
    

    re .3 on role models
    
    I disagree that the only role models we have are in the
    sports/entertainment/politics (are not they all the same really?)
    areas.  I think people today are much more aware of who's who in
    big business, science etc than they were 20 years ago.  Would a
    book authored by a CEO 20 years ago have been a number one best
    seller, were there as many popular magazines relating to business
    and science (MONEY, Business Week, Omni, etc).  20 years ago if
    asked to name a scientist people has seen, they would probably have
    said Mr. Wizard, today Carl Sagan.
    
    My point is that it is key that we make the effort to publicize
    the successful minorities that are around so that people see the
    other side of the coin.  I also think it important that we encourage
    our children to to be in situations where they get to know as
    individuas members of minorities because I think it is through this
    exposure that in the long term prejudice will be reduced.  I wish
    there were a better way to accomplish this than through busing,
    maybe we should force the parents to move to integrate neighborhoods
    instead (probably not practical).
    
    Maybe this is the right time for a minority or woman candidate to
    run for president on a non-racial ticket (ie emphasizing the foriegn
    policy, economic policy etc issues rather than emphasising the racial
    statemement being made by their candidacy). There sure aren't any
    overwhelming white male candidates as of yet.  

    RE: .9
    
>	In his first speech to a black institution of higher learning,
> 	the president told a commencement audience at Tuskegee
>	University that it was "crucial" for young black Americans to
> 	become scientist, physicists, and mathematicians.
	

    How long has this man been in office (6 years, me thinks) and he
    is only now making his FIRST speech to a black institution.  I think
    that alone tells where he stands on issues relating to blacks. 
    This is the same disregard he has shown to black leaders of any
    kind whether they are members of congress, spokespersons for black
    organizations public or private and blacks in general.  Any person
    of his age that can make a statement during a campaign for the highest
    office of this country that "when he was growing up there was no
    race problem" states very clearly where his head and heart is.
    
    
    JEF

	re .13: You're right, scientists and businessmen are becoming
	better-known (Lee Iacocca, for example). I guess I was
	projecting my own role models (sports figures, musicians), I'm
	not as aware of businessmen and scientists. I'll modify myself
	slightly - these role models *are* very important, but not so
	much on the national recognition level but on the local level.
	Children of any race, creed, etc. should be able to find these
	role models in their own neighborhoods. A black child should
	be able to look to his father, the software engineer, and his
	mother, the university professor, as examples. And to
	next-door neighbor Dr. Huxtable, and his wife the lawyer. And
	to classmate Jos� Rodriguez' father, the city councilman. And
	to playmate Yang Wong's mother, the president of the bank. I
	think that child will get more out of those role models than
	out of having black CEO's at every Fortune 500 company.
	
	As for candidates, Jesse Jackson's run in 1984 broke a lot of
	ground. He got something like 25% of the total primary
	(popular) vote, although few delegates under the system, and
	took the attention as the first black candidate to take a
	serious run at the presidency. I'm not in agreement with his
	politics, but I was very glad to see the support he received
	which will make the road much easier for a more moderate,
	experienced candidate in the future, who won't have to put up
	so much with the "novelty" of being a black candidate.
	Unfortunately, there are very few black politicians right now
	who are nationally known, and I can't think of any holding an
	office higher than mayor of a large city (Bradley, Young,
	Washington, Goode...) - no senators or governors. Isn't
	Bradley running for governor of California this year? If so
	(and he wins), perhaps he would be ready for a serious
	presidential run in 1992.
	
	Mike

    
    A short while ago, my SO and I were at the local supermarket (we
    live in a predominately white suburb).  When we were standing in
    the checkout lane, a small child exclaimed, "Mommy, look at the
    n____r!"  The kids mother started profusely apologizing for what
    the child said, stating "She didn't know what she was saying."

    He just looked at her and replied, "Oh, that's O.K.  She had to
    learn it from someone."  
    
    Bob

    I was very interested to read this weekend that Jesse Jackson is
    now leading the polls for the Democratic nomination (actually I
    think Undecided would win hands down right now but anyway).  This
    has got to be the first time in history that a minority cnadidate
    has led in the poles for a major party regardless of how early it
    is.
    
    I also saw an interesting piece on 60 minutes Sunday on Sen.
    Inoway(sp?) from Hawaii.  Who says a minority candidate has to be
    black?  He has been in the Senate since the early 60's and is
    definitely gaining national recognition heading up the Irangate
    investigations.                                                
                                                                   
    Speaking of Hawaii, I noticed when I was there there seemed to be
    much greater racial intermixing and was interested to learn that
    1/3 of all marriages in Hawaii are inter-racial - talk about your
    basic melting pot.  I wonder why it is so much more acceptable there
    than here?  Possibly because there is no clearly dominant race (in
    numbers)?  It is obviously not a recent phenomenon that Hawaiins
    are less bigoted, in the Inoway segment on 60 Minutes he mentioned
    that on Hawaii, even right after Pearl Harbor, no-one treated him
    different because he was of Japanese descent or questioned his loyalty,
    but in California, after the war when he went into a barber shop
    dressed in his US Captains uniform with 4 rows of ribbons and medals
    they refused to serve him because he was a "Jap".  His response to
    the barber...
    
        "I feel sorry for you!"                                        
    
    

    Nothing bothers me more than prejudice. By "prejudice" I am referring
    to all forms of intolerance - racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, 
    homophobia, etc. I don't even argue with prejudiced people because
    I've found them to be too stupid and ignorant; I just walk away.
    I once threw an uncle out of a Passover Seder in my house for making 
    a racist comment. I once walked out of a restaurant because people in 
    the group were making anti-gay comments.
    
    Perhaps someday we'll live in a world where people appreciate the
    beauty in others who are different, instead of hating them because
    they are different... unless the human race blows itself up first.
    
    	- Rich

     RE .18
       Paraphrased : I won't tolerate the intolerate !
    
    Maybe you could have explained to your uncle that he was
    comitting a logical error, rather than throwing him out ?
    Or can't you defend your position logically ? Maybe you
    are bothered by prejudice because you were told it's
    wrong, rather than because you think it is ? You may
    have a good feeling of rightiousness, but your uncle
    probably thinks of you as his "nigger-lovin' nephew"
    instead of as a man of sound judgement. Did it never occur
    to you that people may have reasons for their hates,fears
    and dislikes ? Reasons not valid to you, perhaps, but valid
    to them. 
    
    SET FLAME/MAXIMUM  
    
    Who the HELL are you to tell people what to think, feel,
    or believe ? 

    re: .19 - Well, in light of your reply, I guess I should apologize
    to all the racists out there whose feelings may have been hurt
    by .18.  [Now let's see, what's the notes sign for tongue-in-cheek-
    sarcasm?]
    
    	- Rich

        Although apologizing to racists for offending them my sound
        ludicrous, it is worth keeping in mind that confronting them is
        almost certainly not going to change their minds. It is likely
        that it will take thoughtful dialog which involves both sides
        understanding how the other could have the view they have
        without being sub-human monsters.
        
        JimB. 

                Re: I threw my uncle out of a Passover Seder
                
                I wonder  how  many survivors of the Holocost are 
                not prejudiced against Germans ?

    Re: .22
    
    I'd say that the Holocaust survivors who themselves are German
    (like my father's family) aren't prejudiced against Germans, per
    se.  But having suffered one form of prejudice doesn't seem to make
    one magically reject one's own prejudice - my grandmother is
    extremely prejudiced against blacks.  I don't see any advantage
    to be gained by getting angry at relatives who express such
    opinions.  You aren't going to change anything.  Just set a good
    example for the younger generation.
    					Steve

    re: .19
    
    Each of us has a right to choose what kind of attitudes we will
    permit around us.  If in our own homes, we have the right to ask
    that the person refrain from such comments or leave.  If in restaurant,
    we have the right to leave the group or to request that others do
    not make these comments (and if they refuse then we leave the group).
    
    I have never gotten a prejudiced person to change their ways either
    by being "nice" and ignoring their remarks or explaining my point
    of view nor by being firm and separating us.  However, both are
    valid options.
                           Carol

    Racism is wrong, but often times, there is a reason (of sorts) behind
    it; if I were continually and repetitively beat up/harassed by every
    member of a particular ethnic/racial/gender group that I met, I would
    naturally come to hate them all.  The only way to avoid it is to meet
    lots of _good_ people of that group to reinforce the _fact_ that people
    vary, and there are good and bad in every group.  Being an intelligent
    person does not necessarily mean I would know in my GUT that there
    must be nice people in that group; that real knowledge only comes
    with experience, perhaps one of the reasons the Northeast has almost
    traditionally been an area of rampant anti-black racism -- after
    all if the kid in the backwoods never _meets_ a black person, how
    is s/he to know?
    
    If I were to do the natural thing, ie avoid all contact with people
    who beat me up, I would never meet the good people who happen to
    be [insert your least favorite group here].
    
    Lee

    First, let me confess that, so far, I've read only note .0 and .25,
    so I may well be reiterating what has already been observed,
    	I think that .25 hits it on the head in the last paragraph -
    I find potential friends to be rare enough, and don't feel I can
    afford to eliminate any possibilities an such frivolous grounds.
    	Responding to .0, I think that you can only start to alleviate
    the situation when it truly becomes a personal, rather than an abstract
    matter.
    	When I came to DEC, I found that one of my co-workers and I
    seemed to have a remarkable number of things in common.  Time after
    time, we would discover another similar interest, similar background,
    find that we'd seen the same movie the previous weekend - as it
    turns out, we even have the same birthday.  Somehow, the fact that
    we differ in skin coloration seems rather insignificant.
    	My point is that, before I met this fellow, though I was not
    prejudiced, was not particularly sensitive to these issues.  I would
    see an incident reported on TV and it really would not affect me
    one way or the other.  Now I'm finding that these kind of things
    deeply disturbing.  I can't help but think that these slobs would
    treat my best friend, one of the finest human beings I've ever known,
    in so dehumanizing a manner, and it makes me furious!

    
    
    I hope this is the right place for this.
    
    The other day a friend of mine had this conversation with her
    son.
    
    Mother:  Any thing happen at school today ?
    
    Son:     Yes, a new girl came to my class.
    
    Mother:  What's his name?
    
    Son:     Mesa
    
    Mother:  That's an unusual name, is she black ?
    
    Son:     I don't know, I'll ask her tomorrow at break.
    
    Regards
    

    RE: .27
    
    >  Son:    Yes, a new girl came to my class.
                           ^^^^
    
    > Mother:  What's his name?
                      ^^^
    
    Did you mean: What's her name?
                         ^^^
    
      Alan

    You're sick, Mike.  :-)

    re -1,-2
    	The two of you are sicko's (-:
    
    	Getting serious for a moment, I have never come face to face
    with racism in America thus far. However, when I lived in England,
    there were some places being a black person that you couldn't go
    or not alone. I'm sure people have heard of skin heads, well, I
    recall when these people were hopeless unemployable misfitts who
    had nothing better to do than beatup blacks, Indians,etc.
    
    	Now the skin head fad has come to the U.S, teaching hatred and
    nonesense. Let's face it, if it wasn't blacks, it would be someone
    else. Does anyone remmember that famous quote someone whose name
    escapes me at this moment.
    
    They came for the Jews, and I said nothing.
    They came for the blacks and I said nothing.
    They came for the Catholics, and I said nothing.
    Then the came for me.
    
    -Harv

       �However, when I lived in England, there were some places being a
       �black person that you couldn't go or not alone. 

       There are also places in Britain that as a white person I would
       have had to have been certifiably insane to have ventured
       alone...
                
       /. Ian .\

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Note 299.33                   Prejudice and racism                      33 of 33
SKIVT::INGRAM "Welcome to Vermont, now leave"        13 lines   2-AUG-1988 10:46
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    re -1
    
    There are certain neigborhoods in England black or white would not
    venture. I recall being chased by white skinhead gangs, I also recall
    blacks being pissed that at any white person in a certain section
    of town, and ofcourse they were targets. By no means am I condoning
    this behavior; but, let's face it, the incidents of "P**" bashing
    and "G**" are numerous to say the least. 
    
    For those that are curios what the ** are in quotes, they are
    derogortory terms for people of color.
    
    -harv

    Hi, Harv: (re .31)
    
    You may not have encountered racism in America; it against the law
    to openly demonstrate the type af racism evidenced (for instance)
    in South Africa.  It is also not considered 'chic' to demonstrate
    open racism of the type you speak of in Britain.  However, racism
    is alive and well in USA.  Notice that the poverty rate for people
    of colour has risen in the last year, just as it has for most of
    American history.  Notice that people of color are still noticable
    for their lack of persence in certain neighborhoods.  Look closely
    and you will see this ugly ceptre is raised high, only our new
    fixation with 'liberated thinking' keeps it under a cloak.
    
    Ray Shepard.
    

    re .34, a correction on law (from a non-lawyer):
    
    It is _not_ illegal to be a racist or to expouse racist ideas.
    
    It is illegal for (most) business transactions to be racially
    sensative.
    
    Businesses therefore do not promulgate racist ideas, but individuals
    and groups (e.g. the KKK) are free to do so.  This is a consequence
    of the First Amendment, and the ACLU has demonstrated a willingness
    to take such issues to the Supreme Court (where it usually wins
    them).
    
    				-John Bishop

     Re .34
    
    The poverty rate has *not* risen for people of color over most of
    American history.  Unfortunately, this is due to the fact that the
    poverty rate for people of color has been very close to 100% for
    most of American history.  I do agree, that it has been increasing
    over the past several years, which is unfortunate.
    
    Elizabeth