| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 296.3 | I'm A Fool, Don't Tell My Boss! | ANGORA::RTURNER | Hi Mom! Send Money! | Mon Apr 27 1987 22:44 | 28 |
|
> ... except for fools too stupid to understand ...
I hereby declare myself to be a fool. And I think I prefer to stay
a fool if being wise means being afraid of commitment.
I've always considered a fear of commitment as a sign of insecurity.
For the last five months, my SO has been 1000 miles away. We've
only seen each other three times over this period, yet I go to bed
smiling every night because I know that both of us are totally
committed to our relationship. It's my commitment that keeps me
going every day.
I admit that this kind of commitment can lead to very hurtin' times.
But, that's a chance that I'm willing to take. I've lived through
it before, and I'll probably live through it again. I just happen
to believe in giving everything to a relationship. If it gets thrown
back into my face, then I'll just wipe it off and go on.
Enough from this fool!!
Good Luck .0
Ron Turner (*-+++++<
|
| 296.4 | Me, too! | HUMAN::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Tue Apr 28 1987 00:45 | 5 |
| Predictably, I'll also side with the fools in this one. I fully
believe in commitment. 'course that does you no good as I'm
happily married, but...
JimB.
|
| 296.5 | | GCANYN::TATISTCHEFF | | Tue Apr 28 1987 01:23 | 21 |
| <SET TONE/PREACHING_AGAIN>
I think a lot of men and women (most, but who am I to know...) would
agree, committment isn't THAT bad, pretty neat actually. I think
you just gotta pick 'em better ("and who am *I* to talk?" Single
as hell...).
The men I date may complain about the third degree, but I want to
know as much as possible about their past experiences (of the romantic
sort), not to know what they have done or had done to them but TO
SEE HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT IT NOW. Someone who feels they got shafted
and has no good feelings about any of their ex's is usually someone
who shafted themselves.
If in the litany of past loves/disasters you hear _nothing_ positive
and you hear about romances "nipped in the bud", chances are you're
just going to join the crowd. You never hear what REALLY happened
anyhow, just your potential mate's INTERPRETATION of it. Sort of
a preview of what to expect of this person's behaviour.
Lee
|
| 296.6 | --< we all get scared >-- | SSVAX::LAVOIE | | Tue Apr 28 1987 09:57 | 32 |
|
After being at the "burnt" end of a relationship, sometimes people
get wary and afraid of being hurt again. This causes them to break
off a relationship when it seems everything is going along fine.
For the breaker it reminds them of when they were with "x" and they
(male or female) can't stand the thought of going through the anguish,
hurt, pain or even humiliation. So they end it before they get hurt
or even get a chance to find out what is really going on. It boils
down to being scared.
We all get scared of things. When we let someone into our lives
it make us vulnerable in the emotional aspect. Emotions once betrayed
seem to be the hardest thing to recover. Painful memories stick
around and you hurt. Things, places, and names remind of your SO
and it seems hard to let go especially if you travel in the same
social circles.
From experience when my SO and I broke up I was miserable until
I packed all of his things into a box (everything that reminded
me of him too!) and tucked away in the corner of my closet. The
next thing I did was to try and enjoy being single. Going places
I hadn't when we were together. There was an eloquent story about
breaking up in one of the supermarket mag's (Women's Circle I think).
The fictitious lady was in mourning over her ex and she put everything
he gave her (within reason) in a small box and buried it. After
a year of not having these possessions to hold and cry over she
found that she could go on with her life. It seems funny but I keep
hearing that it takes about a year to really get over a relationship
fully. Maybe we rush into the next one too quick and scares us away
from commitment.
|
| 296.7 | --> One more thing <-- | SSVAX::LAVOIE | | Tue Apr 28 1987 10:01 | 25 |
| I forgot to add this, it is a poem sent to me by a friend...
Comes the Dawn
After awhile you learn the subtle difference,
Beteen holding a hand and chaining a soul,
And you learn that love doesn't mean leaning,
And company doesn't mean security,
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts,
And presents aren't promises,
And you begin to accept your defeats,
With your eyes open,
With the grace of a woman,
Not the grief of a child.
And you build your roads on today,
Because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans,
And futures have a way of falling down in midflight.
After awhile you learn that eve sunshine burns if you get too much.
So plant your own garden and decorate your own soul.
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure......
That you really are strong,
And you do have worth,
And you learn and learn,
With evey goodbye you learn.
|
| 296.8 | Loss of Control | HPSCAD::WALL | I see the middle kingdom... | Tue Apr 28 1987 10:47 | 24 |
|
This may be completely out to lunch, but being thought a lunatic
doesn't really bother me.
I think our culture exerts a certain amount of pressure on people
to grow up as quickly as possible, and that the inability to commit
is a reaction to that pressure. We get saddled with responsibilities
of one sort or another very quickly.
A relationship is a big responsibility too, you know. In a lot
of cases, it may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. One
partner mentions commitment, and quite suddenly it dawns on the
other one what a responsibility a relationship is. And the gut
reaction is to get angry or frightened because they don't want another
thing to worry about right now, or they can't handle another
responsibility. People who are angry or frightened do not behave
rationally. Hence the phenomena of relationships sundered at the
first mention of commitment.
I've never confronted this problem myself, but I've certainly heard
of it often enough. Another reminder that it's a tough old world,
and some of us are going to have to make it alone.
DFW
|
| 296.9 | Bravo, 296.7! | TSG::MCGOVERN | Szechuan Vanilla | Tue Apr 28 1987 11:02 | 7 |
| I think the poem in .7 says it all. Love yourself, be true to what
you want (not what you think or have been socialized to want), and
stand up for yourself. Then, as you develop more and more
self-confidence and strength, you can develop relationships based
on solid emotional ground. These relationships tend to work in
my experience (single, "committed" for 4 years, and planning marriage.)
Takes time, though.
|
| 296.10 | G=>C=>L, usually | KRYPTN::JASNIEWSKI | | Tue Apr 28 1987 13:42 | 19 |
|
Some people are real fickle; they always want their "one way
out". They'll wager what they have now just to roll the dice one
more time. They dont want to give up their potential for "something
else/more/different/whatever"... It takes a bit of maturity to give
up the selfish, perhaps childish freedoms. I imagine, for the most
part, that the people who have commited have found a whole lot more!
Since maturity comes from growing through experience, perhaps
you are simply "further along" in life than they are. Who is doing
most of the growing in the relationship so far? Does anyone even
want to grow or are they just riding time? Do you think you can both
grow in the same direction?
Commitment, Love and Growth are closely intertwined. Think about
it.
JJJ
|
| 296.11 | Walk, then run | DSSDEV::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Tue Apr 28 1987 13:54 | 39 |
| I'm not sure that I agree with Mr. Wall's analysis that the
pressure to grow up too quickly is at the root of the problem
with commitments, but I do aggree that our culture does have a
lot of pressure in this direction, and that it contributes to
problems with relationships in general.
It seems very important to me to teach our children to savor
each stage of life for what it is and then to go on to the next
stage. I feel that skills at relating to other people are sort
of hierarchical. Our skills at one tage are built upon our
success and experience at the previous one.
In the realm of romance, I think that building a marriage is
dependant, somewhat on our previous romantic experinces. What we
learned from all of the temporary romances helps us to build the
permanent one. This only happens if we let the temporary ones be
temporary. If we try to force each one to be permanent (and
fail) all we learn is how to fail. If we enjoy each of our early
romances for what it is and become adept at relating to those we
love, then when one grows into something more we have something
to go on. Romances, in turn, probably build on our successes
at frindships, and in dealing with our family.
In our culture we tend to want to get straight to the "good
stuff". We see college merely as job training, rather than the
unique learning experience that it is. We see kissing and
"making out" as something we do until we can find someone
willing to go all the way. We latch onto boyfriends and
girlfriends, trying to make them into "steadies", fianc�es and
spouses rather than just learning to love them.
I really do think it is important to learn to walk before we run
and to stand on our own before either. If we don't we cheat
ourselves of an enjoyable experience, and we harm our education
and development. On result of this general problem could easily
be the fear of commitment or the inability to do it. There
may be other causes.
JimB.
|
| 296.12 | ramblings on societal factors | CREDIT::RANDALL | Bonnie Randall Schutzman | Tue Apr 28 1987 14:29 | 60 |
| The note that follows is not a response to any particular reply, rather
a discussion of what I see as another societal factor in general fear
of commitment -- a fear that is certainly not limited to men!
This factor is a common belief that we can have "it" all, whatever it
is, and that we can have it now. (Sometimes it even seems like if we
don't have it all now, we're failures.)
Commitment means that you choose to make something a priority in your
life. By implication, you choose to give up other things if they
interfere with what you've committed yourself to. For instance,
if you're an athlete in training for the Olympic marathon, you put
in your mileage and your speed work every day no matter how much
you would rather sit at home and have a beer while you watch TV.
Most of the rest of us go through life hedging our bets. We want to get
married and have the good things of companionship and devotion, but we
don't want to give up the fun and freedom of the single life. We want
to have children, but we don't want to spend nights bringing fruit
juice to a baby with a cold. We want to be known as humanitarians but
we don't want to give up our Saturday night parties to be a Big Brother
or Big Sister to a kid without a family. We want to be famous writers,
but we don't want to give up the security of a regular paycheck or even
devote the time to polishing our craft. We don't want to work at
building up our skills and our audience over the course of years; we
want our first book on the best-seller list.
This attitude waters down what commitments we do make. As .11
mentions, we don't take time to enjoy what we're doing, and I think a
lot of it is because we're too busy worrying about the other things we
could be doing. We focus attention on the things we give up rather
than on the good things to be gained by making our choices with open
minds and then living by them.
If you look at a relationship that might, with time, grow into a
committed relationship, and you see only the freedom you're giving up,
the partners you will never have, the sexual variety that you might
never otherwise experience, and the danger that after giving up all
that, the relationship might crumble anyway, you're right to feel
afraid of the chance you're taking. Similarly, if you (me) want to be
a writer, and you look only at the fancy dinners you won't be able to
go out to any more because you won't have the money to eat out, you
won't see that the choice itself has to satisfy you. Letting go of
the other things you could have been is one of the scariest things
you can do.
True, you don't want to let other people tell you, in the words of the
ad, that you can't have pinstripes and basketball too. You have to be
yourself. But you have to make sure your self isn't spread so thin over
so many things that you never have time to enjoy the pleasures of going
deep. We can too easily spend a little time doing this, a little time
doing that, and wind up being hacks of all trades and masters of none.
--bonnie
* no, I'm not being hypocritical here; I did leave the DEC-womb
for the cold cruel world and I'm only back on contract. I would
not go so far as to say you have to ignore the $$$ entirely. Nor
would I rule out the possibility that for some people, the pursuit
of $$$$ is an end in itself.
|
| 296.13 | You are everything | ORION::HERBERT | What a long, strange trip it's been | Tue Apr 28 1987 14:55 | 33 |
| Hi Carole,
I don't know if this will be helpful to you, but when I was "on
the loose" (so to speak) and searching for a wonderful male person
to share life with, I found myself being severely disappointed with
all of them. The world is quite mixed up, and so are many of the
people in it...and hard as you try, you may not be able to figure
out one particular answer or method that will change what you are
experiencing. It's just very complex. (At least, in my opinion.)
I finally got to a point of throwing up my hands in disgust and
saying..."Fine! I can go through this life happier by myself than
constantly putting energy into black holes (like trying to make
something work with another mixed-up person)." I found a quote
that I really like, and it was very true for me...
"It is more important to be the right person, than to find the
right person."
With that thought, I set out to have a great life...me, myself,
and I...sharing with those who were willing, but expecting nothing
permanent, ever. I was happier than I'd ever been. About a month
later, I met someone whom I became casual friends with (still expecting
nothing and looking for nothing) and it grew into best friends and
now we're married...although, I prefer to say we're hanging out
together, having a good time sharing life.
We often say that our relationship seems as if it will last forever,
but who knows? It doesn't really matter. All that matters is being
happy with yourself. By not expecting anything, and not looking
for anything...I have a strong feeling that you'll get everything!
Jerri
|
| 296.14 | Don't despair!! | VICKI::BULLOCK | Living the good life | Tue Apr 28 1987 15:34 | 41 |
| Take heart, Carole--
What Jerri (.13) so wisely says about living the best life for YOU
is true. I had to laugh about your abbreviation--about a year ago
I felt EXACTLY the same way!! I had had a perfectly disasterous
relationship of 4 years, finally broke away, and was quietly washing
up on the shores when someone made a play for me that my poor bruised
ego just couldn't resist. So off I went--this relationship quickly
went downhill (those knights in shining armour have to get down
off their horses sometime, you know); leaving me feeling worse
than ever.
I finally realized that with all the effort and strength I was putting
into "Making The Relationship Work", I could just as easily put
the effort into making myself happy. With no man in my life making
me happy/unhappy, I found myself in a position to call the shots.
I made a deal with myself that I wouldn't take second best again.
I had learned from my past dealings SOME danger signs! Just by
my saying to myself that I really did deserve the best, and that
committment is NOT a dirty word, I immediately felt better!
As a matter of fact, I met the person I am "happily involved with"
thru DECSINGLES. This time I didn't hide what I wanted ultimately
from a relationship (I think my words were something like, "Look.
This is what I want from a relationship, I fully intend to have
it, and if this is something you are afraid of or don't want then
PLEASE DON'T WASTE MY TIME!" Believe it or not, we came to a very
workable compromise, and we are both happy with it, and best of
all with ourselves.).
I am really sorry this note is so long--it's just that I have been
where you are before, and YES, THERE ARE MANY MORE WONDERFUL, LOVING,
SECURE, AND HAPPY MEN OUT THERE WHO WANT AND WELCOME LOVE AND
COMMITTMENT. But believe me--spend time on YOU first. Whoever
said that phrase about being the right person first instead of looking
for the right person is correct!! Now's YOUR time--rejoice in it
and what you want!
You aren't alone,
Jane
|
| 296.15 | Friends first... | MARCIE::JLAMOTTE | I'm Different | Tue Apr 28 1987 16:42 | 12 |
| Although I am not in a committed relationship right now, I have
found happiness....and it has been through the process that the
last few writers are talking about. Life is good, I enjoy it and
if anything else happens it will be more than frosting on the cake
it will be decorations.
I think that some of our problems lie in the way we meet. We meet
and we put ourselves in dating situations immediately. It takes
a strong person to insist on a period of friendship, but that is
a way to take the time to get to know an individual. Deciding not
to become lovers but to remain friends is far less traumatic than
becoming lovers and breaking up.
|
| 296.16 | Time is all it takes.. (Isn't it? :-)) | AXEL::FOLEY | Rebel without a clue | Tue Apr 28 1987 19:25 | 19 |
| Wow, what an interesting topic! I'm enjoying the insight of others.
Have no fear Carole as there are nice guys out there who do want
that commitment and everything that goes with it.. But as you said,
many have been "screwed" by previous relationships that they
are mixed up.
Jane said it best when she said "Make yourself happy". Remembering
the fact that no other person can MAKE YOU happy, that only YOU
can make YOURSELF happy has helped me alot. And also what else
Jane said about "Only deserving the very best" is key. I've found
that I'm in that situation now.. (although I do feel a little guilty
thinking that I'm TOO finicky) I'm kinda hoping to find "someone
to hang out with on a regular basis" and I'll just keep shopping
until I get what I want.. Granted, I do get sick of shopping and
just wish someone sent it to me in the mail.. :-) :-)
mike
|
| 296.17 | What isn't commitment? | YODA::BARANSKI | 1's & 0's, what could be simpler?! | Wed Apr 29 1987 15:42 | 18 |
| Who, me? I've allways been a fool. Fools Unite!
What you say about not making every relationship permanent is true...
I'd like to make a distinction between commitment, and <something else>.
Once, after being particularly burned, I decided to approach a relationship as
temporary... I enjoyed that relationship very much. Both of us knew that the
relationship was not "permanent". We enjoyed each other's company without
thought of trying to make each other into respectable mates. We spent a lot of
time together, but we still had seperate activities when one was unavailable...
Then I was reminded that the relationship was temporary by it ending; she found
someone who was 'just right'. I found to my surprise that I was at least as
hurt as if I had been "commited" to making the relation permanent! That idea
didn't work out so hot...
Jim.
|
| 296.20 | Men more than women...? | CSC32::C_HAMPTON | | Wed Apr 29 1987 18:13 | 24 |
|
RE .18
My view, obviously, is from the female side. Being that most
of my friends are females I hear the problem being with men.
The orginal note was meant to discuss problems that people
are having on the subject of committment. The example used
just happen to come from my personal experience. Even if
it looks like men have the biggest problem with committment,
based on the replys, don't take it personally you are unique
in yourself!
I must add, being the originator of the note, that the replys
have helped me tremendously to view the situation as "an experience"
in life. I certainly hope I don't run into it again, and
will be more cautious in the future. I liked the reply about
telling the person what I am looking for in a relationship
before "getting started", I am going to try that.
Please continue with the replys, the more views, the better!
Carole...
|
| 296.21 | I can see the flames now | VINO::MCARLETON | Reality; what a concept! | Wed Apr 29 1987 18:41 | 64 |
| Oh no here we go with a dissenting opinion....
On the question of "Why are men afraid to commit?", please read
the book:
"Why Men Are the Way They Are
The Male:Female Dynamic"
I don't remember the author's name but he has started many Men's
and Women's groups across the country and was once involved with
NOW. He also wrote "The Liberated Man".
His contention in the book is that male "Fear of Commitment" is
a myth. The claim that a particular male is afraid to commit is
just a ploy to get a man to say "I'm not afraid of anything" and
be more willing to commit.
He bases his contentions on his analysis of the primary fantasies
of both men and women. Based on a study of the most popular male
and female oriented magazines this is what he finds:
The primary male fantasy is to have sex with as many beautiful women
as possible.
The primary female fantasy is to get commitment from a man who can
provide for them in grand style. (The knight on a white horse)
Each sex works to manipulate the other into providing their primary
fantasy without having to give up their own fantasy.
With this reasoning the reason men would not want to commit could
be:
o He does not want to provide for the woman many of the fruits of
his education and labors.
o He does not what to give up his primary fantasy.
This could be very true if the man does not have to commit to get
sex from the woman who wants the commitment.
But clearly some men do give up their primary fantasy in order to
commit. Why?
The author maintains that a man will give up his primary fantasy
to secure his primary need, love and intimacy.
I also contend that a man will commit in order to have children.
I think that all that was said in the other replies is good but I don't
really think that those answers are very satisfying. I don't believe that
men are as fragile as most of the other notes contend.
I will say that many of his aguments are overdrawn and don't fit
an awful lot of people. I think that there are very many women
here at DEC that can easly provide for themselves and arn't looking
for a "Knight in shining Armor" to "Flashdance" them into securty.
Ask yourself though...Would you need him to commit as much if it
was understood that as soon as he did he could quit his job and
that you would support him?
MJC O->
|
| 296.22 | So that's why I'm so confused! | DSSDEV::BURROWS | Jim Burrows | Wed Apr 29 1987 19:08 | 18 |
| Well, now I know what's wrong with me--I have the wrong fantasy.
It has never been my primary fantasy "to have sex with as many
beautiful women as possible". I've fantasized about specific
women, and when none were available about specific fantasy
women, but never just "lots of women".
Beyond that, execpting sexy dreams (which I take it merely
indicate that you're horny), sex _per_se_ hasn't been a big
fantasy with me. My fantasies in the realms of relationships
have centered around love and intimacy. (Seems I've got my
fantasy confused with my needs, or something.)
Of course, the other possibility is that the notion that you can
understand men and women and the differences between them "based
on a study of the most popular male and female oriented
magazines" just doesn't stand up.
JimB.
|
| 296.23 | | ARMORY::CHARBONND | | Thu Apr 30 1987 07:45 | 12 |
| I dunno, maybe I'm old-fashioned. I strongly believe that
commitments are made to be KEPT. Nowadays it seems okay
to a lot of people to break commitments, then excuse them-
selves by saying "I forgot" or " I didn't feel like it".
(Remember the Steve Martin routine on that first ? Did you
laugh ? Still laughing ?) People think nothing of making
small commitments ( I'll call you at 8 ) and then, when you
say "where were you ?" they brush it off as a small thing.
Having personally been through this routine many 'small'
instances, I wonder if I can believe in *major* commitments.
If you want another person to make a commitment to you,
you have to have credibility yourself.
|
| 296.24 | JimB don't count | VINO::MCARLETON | Reality; what a concept! | Thu Apr 30 1987 09:37 | 27 |
|
Re: .22
Well Jim, it is true that I did not see your name anywhere in the
book so I guess the author must not have contacted you to check
whether the fantasy is universal.
The point of this note is that some women have trouble getting
some men to commit. Since in .4 you proclaimed you yourself
"fully believe in commitment" it is not surprising that you
also do not show other characteristics of those for which
commitment is a problem. If you don't have the disease you probably
don't show the symptoms either.
I have read the book and I don't think that his theories will just
just dry up and blow away with a puff of rhetoric. I have a healthy
distrust of statistics but I still think that he makes his case.
His theories have the same characteristic of all good theories;
the theory explains much more than the phenomena it was devised to
explain.
Re: .*
The fact that a man is unwilling to commit does not imply that
there must be something wrong with the man.
MJC O->
|
| 296.25 | I am an individual! | ERIS::CALLAS | So many ratholes, so little time | Thu Apr 30 1987 11:34 | 11 |
| Yeah, obviously since fellas like JimB and myself don't fit the theory,
we're not really men. I would be suspect of anyone who tries to make
the world fit a pet theory. Statistics is a great way to do this. You
just call everything that doesn't fit the theory "an outlier" and
discard them. Presto, the theory works.
I'm reminded of a quote I once read that went something like, "There is
only one evil, treating an individual as a member of a group. All the
others fall from that."
Jon
|
| 296.26 | Atempting to avoid the rathole | VINO::MCARLETON | Reality; what a concept! | Thu Apr 30 1987 13:11 | 26 |
| Oh no ... There it is ... the *STATISTICS RATHOLE*.
Well I guess that since I'm in this rathole now I might as well
say a few words.
The standard defense against even the most overwelming statistics
is "I can find one exception so it must not be true." So many
people insist on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Someone said "It is a sign of a great mind when a person can me
moved by statistics".
All of this statistics stuff misses the point though. The original
theories were developed out of years of starting men's groups and the
things that the author herd men say about their relationships in those
groups. The statistics are only used (used well I think) to support
the theories. It could be that the people who could be found in those
groups where having more problems with commitments than some of the men
here. You don't have these problems...Great...good for you...but what
about the rest of the world.
I believe that the book sheds some light on the Male-Female power
struggle. Have a look at it. You might even agree.
MJC O->
|
| 296.27 | | ARMORY::CHARBONND | | Thu Apr 30 1987 13:11 | 1 |
| Individuality is the shit end of the bell curve
|
| 296.28 | Looken' for a Hardheaded Woman... | YODA::BARANSKI | 1's & 0's, what could be simpler?! | Thu Apr 30 1987 16:11 | 21 |
| "I've heard just as many women back out at minute last as men..." .18
As a male, I can assure you of that... :-)
"Ask yourself though...Would you need him to commit as much if it was understood
that as soon as he did he could quit his job and that you would support him?".20
Very good question! Any of you ladies want to answer that? :-}
"The fact that a man is unwilling to commit does not imply that there must be
something wrong with the man." .24
You got that right! Let's just face it (no abuse intended) you were not 'right
for him' enough for that man at that time for him to give up *, to make a
commitment to you. It happens *all* the time to *everybody*. (well at least me
:-))
Personally, I'm looking for a relationship where I don't *have* to "give up"
*anything* (that I don't want to on it's own merits).
Jim.
|
| 296.29 | Take it easy! | CSC32::C_HAMPTON | | Thu Apr 30 1987 17:43 | 43 |
|
OOOOOOOOOOOO, this is getting hot and heavy!
YES, if I found the right guy that didn't have a problem with
commitment, and our relationship grew to the point that we would
get married, I would do anything for that person!!!
I have already done it. My soon-to-be-ex needed to move
back to Calif. to work for his father so I sold the house that
I owned before I met him and quit my job here at DEC. I gave
up everything for him and when we got there he was a different
person. I won't get into the reasons why I am divorcing him.
Luckily I got my job back here and I will never leave again (I
don't think).
Anyway, the gripe that I was making is about the guy that goes
along for months acting like he is in "seventh heaven" along
with you and then turns to you one day and says, "I don't think
I want to spend the rest of my life with you" when he had
said the day before, "let's buy a house" and "This summer I want
to meet your parents" all talk about "future" type stuff. One
day it is all over! They say they really didn't feel the way
they said and so on and so on...I would appreciate it a lot more
if the guy would say "I am leaving you for someone else", I think
I could handle that, instead I am left angry from the mixed
up feelings of a person I cared for and still wanting him to be
happy, but he won't let me.
If he didn't decide from the beginning that I wasn't the one
for him then we would have never gotten started and visa versa.
I've been there before and it doesn't hurt NEAR as bad!
I have just been seeing too much of it lately with friends
of mine and wanted to see everyones view on the problem.
RE .28( I think) DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY!!!!!
Keep those replys coming!
Carole...
|
| 296.30 | honesty, integrity, responsibility | CREDIT::GROFF | | Thu Apr 30 1987 19:49 | 39 |
| Well, I think it IS A BAD YEAR for a lot of people...
Friends of mine who know Astrology are quick to explain why... :-)
But, when we look at the topic... COMMITMENT... one could also
say RESPONSIBILITY. Both, are frightening words to children and
youth. I contend that there is a point within the make-up of an
individual where he or she determines that they want a relationship
that involves commitment. THIS DECISION IS CONSCIOUS. Sometimes,
it is made after their "partner" has WAITED A LONG TIME. This is
one of the milestones towords maturity (another open question, what
is maturity?)
Women, seem to come to this decision earlier (maybe they are more
mature?) than men, IN GENERAL. (So... all you men who were committed
(pun intended) at 19 can keep quiet :-)
Unfortunately, when we "shop" for mates, we do not always find the ones
capable of this commitment. I do not know what the "secret of finding
a mate capable of commitment", but starting out with honesty and
demanding honesty from them, is a first. My EX-fiance' had a problem
with honesty... she led me to believe that the relationship had
a future and was on sound ground. Her dis-honesty caused the greatest
amount of pain in the loss of this relationship. Expectations,
hopes, and dreams came tumbling down with the relationship. It is
harder to recover from such a disaster.
What I look for now...
HONESTY
Integrity
Responsibility
are necessary before I can "honestly" consider the women as my mate.
(And, yes, there are some other qualifiers too :-)
good luck to all,
dana
|
| 296.31 | | CSC32::KACHELMYER | David Lee Kak | Thu Apr 30 1987 21:27 | 24 |
| Yeah, rather than a problem with commitment itself, this is sounding
more like a problem with honesty and responsibility in some individuals
(both male and female).
I, moi-self have experienced something along this line in some
relationships in the past. The partner starts behaving a little
'flakey', so one comes right out and ask if they're no longer
interested in the relationship. In these cases, the partner will
without fail, profess ye olde undying interest. However, they're still
acting a bit flakey. So, after couple of cycles of this, one can't help
but to get the message and move on.
Also, I knew an aquaintance who did one of the previously-mentioned
switcheroo numbers to someone. This person got up to the point of
'engaged to be married' before admitting to the partner that things
weren't going to work out, leaving the partner in a state of *extreme*
suprise.
I agree with Carole that it's much easier (on oneself) to have someone
be honest and leave when things are still uncomplicated, rather than to
have them try to hold out for the emotionally devastating breakup later
on.
Kak
|
| 296.32 | manipulation | VINO::MCARLETON | Reality; what a concept! | Thu Apr 30 1987 23:27 | 46 |
| Re: .29
> ... then turns to you one day and says, "I don't think
> I want to spend the rest of my life with you" when he had
> said the day before, "let's buy a house" and "This summer I want
> to meet your parents" all talk about "future" type stuff.
Sounds like manipulation to me. Some of these same phrases are
actually quoted in the book. He seeks to get you to provide what
he wants by giving you the impression that he will give you what
you want.
Try this, let's say that instead of the "let's buy a house" phrases
you were hearing "If we are still together next month, do you want
to go on a vacation together?" What if his indications had been
that he was thinking of only a temporary thing. Would you have
dumped him? If he thought that you would than he may have decided
to resort to the "we have a future" manipulation to hide is true
feelings until he was ready to move on.
Men ,of course, are not the only ones who use manipulation.
There are many things mentioned in the book that you could have been
doing to manipulate him too. How did you respond to his "future"
talk? Was if different if he did not say anything about future
plans in some time?
I am not trying to be judgmental here (Please do not misunderstand).
I only wish to shed some light on the subject. I am very slow
to condemn.
Re: .30
Once again, by saying that a man will not commit because he is not
mature enough is blaming the man. Why this insistence that there
is something wrong with the man? Why is a man abnormal for wanting
to stay uncommitted and a woman normal for wanting the commitment
(or vice-versa). We could just as easily say that there is something
wrong with the partner that seems to need to push the other to commit
Is commitment such an important part of a relationship that
anyone who does not yearn for it is considered abnormal?
MJC O->
|
| 296.33 | Its in the honor of it | KRYPTN::JASNIEWSKI | | Fri May 01 1987 10:05 | 24 |
|
re .32 "abnormal"
I think the expectation for Commitment from a Woman in her
relationship is a matter of honor. Just as you honor "God" by
your commitment to attend (to) the religious service at whatever
the prescribed interval is. Just as you honor your country by
your commitment to go fight it's battles.
Why not "honor" another person by your commitment to being
with *them* -only- for all time? If viewed in a positive way, this
could be benificial for both parties.
Maybe no one "gets off" on honor anymore...its too "long term"
a thing - doesnt have the immediate "zing" society conditions us
to want.
What is "honor" anyway?
...esteem, respect, glory, distinction, great privelege,
personal integrity, special recognition, validate?
Joe Jas
|
| 296.34 | Friday morning meanderings | DEBIT::RANDALL | Bonnie Randall Schutzman | Fri May 01 1987 10:40 | 47 |
| BUT COMMITMENT ISN'T A SYNONYM FOR MARRIAGE!!!!!!!!!!!
I know it's been watered down to that, but taking it that way is the
source of a lot of misunderstanding and grief between the sexes.
There's nothing abnormal about a man who doesn't want to make a
particular commitment to a particular woman -- or vice versa, either.
It might not be a problem if one is consciously afraid to make promises
that one might have to live up to later on. (I'm not saying that this
applies to anybody in this notes file; I'm discussing this issue in the
abstact.) It's certainly a problem when one acts in a way that
makes the other person think there has been a commitment!
Commitment is the conscious decision that something -- not necessarily
even a person, and certainly not always a mate -- deserves my
attention, my effort, my concern, and if necessary my sacrifice.
Commitment can be partial -- my commitment to a new acquaintance,
however congenial, would take second place to a commitment to the needs
of an old friend -- or temporary. It can conflict with other
commitments.
For example, I made a commitment to my writing: I will be only the best
writer I can be, I will tell the story as it must be told, I will not
take the easy way out simply because exploring the depths of the story
causes me pain, I will not take shortcuts to achieve success. This
is a lifetime commitment, a deep part of who and what I am. I also
made a commitment to my job at DEC to give it my best effort, to go
beyond the call of duty if I had to.
Last year I discovered that I could no longer be true to both those
commitments. I could have gone on a long time giving my DEC job minimal
attention and devoting myself to my own writing, but that would have
violated my personal integrity and my concept of honor, so I left the
company. (Note that I never promised to work here forever!) Now, while
I'm on contract, I'm again giving my job the whole effort.
There are lots of people in this society who are afraid to make any
commitments that aren't temporary or partial. Psychologists who write
books appear to believe, based on their experience, that more men than
women have trouble making this kind of commitment, though my personal
opinion is that women and men, for reasons I discussed in an earlier
note, have equal trouble making commitments; it just shows up in
different areas. Women tend to be ready to make personal commitments
while men are more willing to make career-oriented commitments.
But to be a whole and healthy person, you need both.
--bonnie
|
| 296.35 | why not live for now | PRANCR::SCOTTT | | Fri May 01 1987 13:26 | 15 |
| What is commitment anyway, if we believe that we all have a time to
go and leave this earth. why not enjoy the time you have now. people
put so much time in tring to get a commitment, that they can't see what
they really have. time will tell, if you do not push the issue,
then there is a good chance that the right thing will happen. i
know you would not want someone to commit, if there whole heart
is not into it. In the long run you will hurt much more. we can
not tell people how to feel to suit us, sometimes we are just not
the right person and as hard as it is for us to accept, it all comes
from that weird thing called "LOVE". on the issue of changing the
things we like to do, or our life for a relationship. everything
we change, is that much less of the person we fell in love with
in the first place. why change who you wanted to spend your life
with anyway. just my personal feeling, thank you for your time.
terry
|
| 296.37 | | CEODEV::FAULKNER | esq | Sat May 09 1987 17:15 | 5 |
| too many of the rapid fire two month meeting
now we get married
relationships that I see happening
go up in smoke in less tha the two months
prior to the initial meet
|
| 296.39 | long winded opinion from the inside looking out | WATNEY::PITT | | Fri May 15 1987 19:41 | 46 |
| I hate to hear people actually guaging ones maturity by ones
willingness to make a committment. Lets first look at "committment"
as most people looking for one define it.
committment: I want you to be with me and me alone and love me and
me alone for the rest of your life on earth even if
that's another 75 years. I want you to from this moment on never
'sleep' with another person for that 75 years. (I'll keep it clean)
etc.(I think you get my point)
When you think about a committment like marriage (if that is the
big C we're talking about here), you better think about the next
75 years, or you may as well look elsewhere.
If you REALLY HONESTLY think about the depth of what you're asking
from that person, maybe you can understand why they may
reconsider when the word committment (IE marriage) comes up.
Maybe we should look at the person who runs away from that committment
and realize that it is a pretty mature decision to say "no" and leave
a comfortable relationship when they ARE 'lonely' and will continue
to be lonely, because they have realized that they cannot, in all
HONESTY to themselves and to you, say "I want to love only you for
the next 75 years"
I can say this as one who has said 'goodbye' a few times when things
got a little more intense then I was prepared to live with. I could
have just as easily said 'lets not make comittments yet but go on
seeing each other'....neither of us would have been happy in the
end.
I agree stongly with .35....well said.
Long winded...I know. This is only opinion, Carole. Not based on
any person or persons either living or dead.....actually, maybe
this is based on my pre-committment days and my current committed
days.
Just one more opinion, then I'll shut up. Sometimes its easier
to say "I'm not ready for a committment" then it is to say "I really
do like you and its been fun but I don't LOVE you enough to be there
when we're both 92".
just opinion.
|
| 296.40 | it's been fun; I'd like this to last at least a year or two... | YODA::BARANSKI | 1's & 0's, what could be simpler?! | Sun May 17 1987 18:03 | 12 |
| RE: -.1
Actually, my interpretation of .0 was not so much commitment as in marriage, but
more like commitment as in 'well we've been keeping each other busy for the past
couple of months, and I've really enjoyed it, and I'd like it to last a year or
two...'.
There seem to be plenty of people running from that type of commitment too, too
busy looking for "the right one" to bother dealing with real people and keeping
people as friends...
Jim.
|
| 296.41 | maybe I'm missing the point | WATNEY::PITT | | Mon May 25 1987 13:10 | 29 |
| I guess the big question I have is: If you're not talking about
marriage, then why the need for a commitment??
Why make a concious promise to another person to be only with that
person for x period of time if you're not getting married?? That's
what married is for.......
ok...I should get jumped on for that one.....but I guess I just
don't understand. When you're 'dating' someone, what is the need
or reason for commitment besides the fact that you're afraid of losing
that person to someone else?? If the reason for that commitment
is to keep the person from getting lose, then I don't see the logic.
In my opinion, if someone wants to be with someone else, the he
will....flat out. If one of the two people in this 'couple' wants
to be able to see other people, then, who are you to blame them
for their lack of commitment? When two people are ready for the
same commitment at the same time, it usually ends up with 4 kids
and a white picket fence. If not, then one or the other of them
gets accused of being immature, irresponsible etc.
Sure it hurts when you find out the person you want to be with
doesn't necessarily want to be with you. But is it their FAULT?????
I guess what I'm trying to say is: I am not going to make a commitment
to be with 'you' just so that I won't hurt 'your' feelings. If I want
to be with 'you' then I will, commitment or not......unless of course
we're married, then we're playing by a whole differant set of rules.
|
| 296.43 | I'll commit to having a good time! | ORION::HERBERT | Walk in the sunshine | Tue May 26 1987 14:26 | 45 |
| Re: .41
There's a different way of viewing commitments...that may be the
reason some people find value in them.
We make commitments all the time to lots of people. We commit to
jobs, relationships, ourselves, etc. One way of looking at a
commitment is that it is an agreement of mutual understanding
about the guidelines for a relationship between two people. For
instance, two people might want it understood and agreed upon that
their relationship is to be sexually closed. If they both agree,
they are making that personal commitment to themselves and each
other. Some form of agreement and understanding is necessary or
the relationship could be very undefined and confusing.
This could be considered making a commitment. I don't think
marriage is necessary for that...and I don't think that's what
marriage is "for". Commitment is not a word to be feared. Just
like anything else...to understand it is to be able to find some
benefit from it.
I think some people are afraid of making commitments because they
feel it traps them somehow. Since they're not sure what they want
to do, and may fear that they're making a decision now that they'll
regret later, they run away from commitments as if the commitment
itself is the problem. But the commitment is just a temporary tool
for setting up something the way we want it. Things are always
changing, and just because a commitment gets broken doesn't mean the
commitment is bad...it just means it's through serving it's purpose
and now it's time to change. Some commitments are not wise choices,
but many times it's our insecurity and fear that causes the problems.
Unless it is an obviously bad commitment to make, fear of commitment
can come from a fear of failing or being unable to change later. Since
you will definitely fail and change again *sometime*...why let that
stop you from the fun interaction of making valuable agreements and
plans with people and yourself now? Nothing is that serious.
Commitments can be very valuable in setting up comfortable conditions
and for defining a direction you want to follow. Nothing is ever
permanent or unchangeable...not even commitments. But they can be
beneficial to everyone if you use wisdom in making them and applying
them to your situations.
Jerri
|
| 296.44 | commitment | YODA::BARANSKI | MAIL hates my NOTES name | Tue May 26 1987 15:31 | 15 |
| RE: .41
"Why make a concious promise to another person to be only with that person for x
period of time if you're not getting married?? That's what married is for......"
That's not what marriage is for. Marriage is not "for X period of time".
I believe that what the original question was more like 'Why do people get
scared when you say "Hey, I enjoy being with you, and I'd like it to last
for a while."'
I think that that is a reasonable thing to say at some point, and I think that
there *are* people who have a problem hearing such, and take off.
Jim.
|
| 296.45 | maturity | NOVA::GROFF | | Wed May 27 1987 14:07 | 12 |
|
MATURITY -
a mature person will commit to XXXX,
a mature person will be able to say the he/she cannot commit to
XXXX,
an IMMATURE person wil WANT to commit to XXXX but is AFRAID of the
consequences.
an IMMATURE person does not want the RESPONSIBILITY of commitment.
- dana
|
| 296.46 | I agree: It all comes down to maturity | RSTS32::COFFLER | Jeff Coffler | Thu May 28 1987 10:39 | 14 |
| re: .43
Very well said, Jerri. I agree wholeheartedly.
re: .45
I've never seen the issue stated that clearly before. I agree with
this; however, I think that you need to understand yourself very well
to really understand who you are, what you are, and what you want. I
know many people that don't understand themselves to this degree, and
so they have problems making commitments; that's is a sign of
immaturity in and of itself, though.
-- Jeff
|
| 296.47 | semantics, anyone | AMULET::FARRINGTON | statistically anomalous | Thu Jun 04 1987 13:42 | 7 |
| re .45 A _more_ mature person may see further "down the road",
realize that a long term commitment is undesireable or untenable.
There are many reasons for refusing to commit, even though there
may be the desire to -
Dwight
|
| 296.48 | GROUNDED IN HIS WORD | ACE::MOORE | | Tue Jun 20 1989 12:09 | 97 |
| OUR WORD IS OUR BOND
God never gives authority without accountability. But who holds us
accountable when we give our word and don't keep it. Many among us
have grown up with parents who don't keep their word. Who holds them
accountable? Or our boss, friends, neighbors? Who holds us accountable
for failure to keep our word?
As men, we must be mature enough to become accountable for our word, we
must see that we keep it when we give it.
One of the reasons many Christians live unfulfilled lives is because
they have given God their word, and not kept it. Then they blame God
for not answering their prayers or supplying their needs when in fact
it is due to their own failure to keep their word.
Many men pile load upon load of guilt upon themselves by not keeping
their word, then wonder why they have problems.
A man's name is only good as his word.
His word is only good as his character.
True of God - true of men.
A man's word is the expression of his nature. You can tell a man's
character by his words. Our word, when given, is a source of faith
to those who receive it, and determines their conduct. When a man tells
a woman he will take her out for dinner, she acts upon that word and is
ready when the time comes. When the word is not kept, unbelief
develops.
Being a man of honor is being a man of your word. Truth is the essence
of the word. Many men today have litte respect for truth. Authors mix
fact and fiction with no apology and called it faction or literary
license. Film-makers do the same and call it art. Ministers do it
and call it evangelistically speaking. Its a lie by any name.
A father who keeps his word can combat the influence of the world
on his children and turn to his son and explain the difference
between the truth and a lie.
Fathers who punish their children for not keeping their word when they
are guilty of the same only teach their children not to get caught.
Many times bosses are hesitant to hire people of integrity because they
are afraid they might expose the unethical behavior and fradulent
practices prevalent in the workplace.
The only place men who love truth are popular in heaven or among other
men of goodwill. The contest between a truth and a lie is constant.
To be able to walk in truth, every man needs to be grounded in the
Word of Truth, and submitted to the Spirit of Truth which bears
witness with his own spirit.
No lie can serve the purposes of God. Knowing the truth and not living
it is a lie in itself. Knowing you gave your word and did not keep it
is living a lie. Knowing you gave your word but need to rescind it, or
repent of it, and not doing it is living a lie.
When you have spoken a hasty word, the best thing to do is to ask
forgiveness and try to get out of that negative situation.
Small children do not know the difference between a broken promise and
a lie.
God says we are going to give an account of every idle word. Some men
need to think back, find what idle words they have spoken, what vows
they have made to God and broken, what promises to their families they
have not kept and repent of it so they can be rid of the results of
walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit.
Peace is the umpire for doing the will of God. Many's the man who
missed
God's way because he based his decision on outward circumstances rather
than an inward witness. If you endorsed a note for someone you hardly
know, guaranteeing his debt, you are in serious trouble. You have
trapped yourself by your agreement. Quick! Get out of it! Swallow your
pride, dont let embarrassment stand in the way. Go and beg to have your
name erased. Dont put it off. Do it now. Pride is the strength of sin.
Pride wont let us humble ourselves to admit wrong or even suffer being
wronged. Death and life are in the power in the tongue.
Satan not only wants to rip off Gods Word from men's lives, he also
wants to steal their word. If the devil can cause a man to fail to keep
his word, he can keep that man from total manhood.
No matter what others do, keep your heart and mind clear and clean by
washing them constantly with the water of the Word of God. Then your
words will follow with truth and integrity.
Great works are built on great words. Let your words be great in God.
Let God be great in your words. Be a man of the word, and a man of your
word.
Ray
|
| 296.49 | it's not a bad word...it's not realistic... | SALEM::SAWYER | but....why? | Wed Jul 05 1989 15:09 | 94 |
| re: Note 296.0 Is COMMITMENT such a bad word?
:Is everyone afraid of COMMITMENT?
beyond what our parents and society have brainwashed us into
believing....why is it so important that people make so many
commitments?
especially when, in reality, nobody knows how long they will love
another person...?
is it really reasonable to expect a person to commit "forever" when
neither party kows how they will feel in 2 or 3 years?
i'd rather hear people commit...."to stay until i want to leave"....
: Saying stupid things like "Oh, I just felt that I needed
:someone to be with for a while"
what's so stupid about that?
: or after 2 months "I don't feel
:like your the one I want to live the rest of my life with".
we might all be better off if we stopped looking for mythical mr/ms
right and just started accepting from people what they can honestly
give....
perhaps that guy would have stayed longer if he wasn't frightened
by fear of "committing forever"
:Who gave them an alloted time frame to decide if the person is
:right for them or not?
i do. i give everyone the right to take as much time as they need or
want. i give them the right to change their mind. i give them the
right to not make commitments......
i also give them the right to not worry about "committments forever"
:I seem to run across men that have been severely scared by
:the mean and terrible things that women can do, I am amazed
:what some of these guys have been through.
and some men just don't believe that making commitments forever
is a sensible thing to do....
i carry no scars from any relationship....and i hope i left none...
but when a woman starts talking "commitment forever", if i can't get
her to understand a more reasonable point of view, i back off....
:And the worst part of it is that the guy will walk around moping
:saying things like" I am so lonely, I want to get married",
i don't want to get married!...i don't care if statistics do me in
earlier than married men....i like being single and intend to
remain this way....
and i aint lonely!.....and guess what....i'm not even a good looking
macho kind of guy that can get lots of women!....
:He said he wanted to break up, that he wasn't ready for such a
:commitment after he had been telling her all along that she was
:the best thing that ever happened to him. Does that make sense?
to me it does. i think one of the reasons that so many people have
trouble making these "forever commitments" is the fact that
making "forever commitments" makes no sense...cus nobody knows
how long they will love another person....
:I am wondering if people all over are experienceing the same
:thing, or if their friends are? Or is it just a bad year
:for me?
i would suggest that your problem is.....you've been brainwashed
into believing that you can only find true happiness in a
"forever commitment"...and...since you still believe this...
and you still want this....you have trouble...
try NOT believing it for awhile and see what happens...
maybe you'll realize that "forever commitments" are not
the only way to travel in life....
:Can anyone convince me that all us singles aren't doomed, and
:that this problem isn't going to manifest itself because of
:people continuely going through bad relationships?
doomed?...
well, if i'm doomed to the lifestyle that i want then bring
on doomsday!
i'm ready for it!!
:I am to the point where I am seriously considering becoming
:a NUN!
don't do that!...become a realist!....realize that
a. it's not important how long love lasts
b. you can have many different loving relationships in life
c. you don't need "commitment forever" to be happy
:Carole (SWISOMWAGMAOCOHOTMU)
good luck
rik
Translated to: Single Women In Search Of Men Who Aren' Gay, Married,
AFRAID OF COMMITMENT, Or Hung-up On Their Mothers, United
|
| 296.50 | Gort rambles on about commitment......... | CSC32::GORTMAKER | whatsa Gort? | Thu Jul 06 1989 06:43 | 26 |
| Not long back I ended a relationship with a woman I had been involved
with for over 9 months. The main reason was any form of commitment
be it to go skiing new years weekend a month in advance or for a date
friday night scared her to death. To ask her to even say maybe would
actually make her mad mind you all I wanted was to be able to make
plans one way or the other. (Am I off base asking someone to make a
decision so that I am not left hanging? )
Even when there was a commitment to do something our plans would often
change(no doubt a better deal came along) or she would be late. Example:
For valentines day I had a dinner planned that was to be prepared by
the chef of the wealthiest family in town the menu was to be 1st class.
I had already paid $250.00 in advance for the dinner ingredients,
wine,flowers ect a few hours before we were to meet she backed out
because of "work". She later found out that dinner was prepaid and
went non-linear because now it was all her fault that "my" dinner plans
dident pan out because of her. She then said all that "was too
expensive, probably not worth it for the money(I know better as this
chef put down a plate that looks too good to take the first bite almost
art).
I know this rambles but just typing it in makes me feel better as I
still am angry a month later I think because I was being used and I
knew it all along.
-j(still willing to commit and tired of those too afraid to try)
|
| 296.51 | re .-1 | SHIRE::DICKER | Keith Dicker, @Geneva, Switzerland | Thu Jul 06 1989 08:22 | 10 |
| re .-1:
That's RIDICULOUS! I can understand being afraid of commitment
to stay with someone for the rest of your life, but to refuse to
commit to a dinner??? What you asked was not (in my humble opinion)
AT ALL unreasonable. Is sounded like she was unwilling to "give"
in the relationship in any way that might restrict her own wishes
in the slightest way. Maybe some people like to live that way --
but it sounds like you're not one of them.
Keith
|
| 296.52 | | SSDEVO::GALLUP | this is hot meat metallic blood | Thu Jul 13 1989 12:27 | 24 |
|
RE: .50 et al
Sometimes people don't like making commitments in advance
with a person because they are really not interested in that
person, yet don't wish to lose that person's friendship, nor
hurt them. I was in a similar situation a little while back
where I wasn't interested romantically with the guy at all,
yet I enjoyed his frienship. It made it really hard to
commit to anything with him, when I knew that he wanted it to
be a romantic date, and I did not.
All I can say is....if you start getting treated like this by
someone....take a minute and try to understand WHY they are
acting this way.....perhaps they aren't interested
romantically.
Commitment to ANYTHING is very hard when you have that kind
pressure on you.
/kath
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