Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    	I have a friend, with whom I become real sarcastic. We go to
    lunch, and talk sarcasticly about cars, stereos, work, real estate,
    people, restaurants, massachusetts, traffic, DECproducts - its fun!
    We laugh, and have a good time with it. Since it's "just between
    friends", it harms no one.
    
    	I'm not *as* sarcastic (sure, Joe, we've seen your notes) when
    I'm not with him. I guess I get a kick out of the absurdity of it.
                              
    	Joe Jas
    

    Let's not blame our present American society too much for sarcasm -- or
    give ourselves too much credit for inventing it, either. It's been a
    human reaction for at least several hundred years and in several
    different languages. The Romans, among others, were expert at it. 
    
    I'm not overly familiar with New Age Thinking (though I'll admit what I
    have heard of it has been rather negative) -- what is the purpose of
    not being sarcastic? Is it just so you start to think about others and
    give them a chance, or is there some "more profound" philosophical
    reason behind it?  What do you replace it with?
    
    I try to give people a chance, and I try not to be sarcastic and/or
    witty in situations where it's not expected, but there's a lot going on
    in the world today (or any day) that deserves to be laughed at. 

    --bonnie

    We had NAT here - I think the idea was to replace ANY "negative images"
    with a "winning picture", and to suppress sarcasm for a day to show
    what benefits could be gained.   The group that did it here tried
    suppressing it, and succeeded for the day so far as I could see - but
    morale wasn't very good anyway, the group was being closed (I tagged
    along to their NAT course to see what was happening), and I don't think
    it had much long-term effect.               
    
    NAT might be a good topic for a separate note here, if anyone's
    interested...  Especially US comments - the thing seems to be very
    US-oriented, though they claim to have Australian and UK variants.    I
    suspect audiences here let it wash over them as with other complex US
    material, and review it later or not at all. 
    
    Sarcasm's great fun, though not always very electronically communicable
    (one of these NOTES/mail etiquette problems, lots of smiley faces
    needed sometimes).   I get a feeling mine atrophied over years of
    talking to terminals, outside DEC and inside.   Pity, I miss it. 

    But, the sharp tongue's like a sword, you can perish by it as well as
    live by it.   My grandmother had a proverb, "Sarky, cut yourself"
    (Sarcastic people can make fools of themselves). 

    I started a NAT note -- don't know what I'll get . . .
    
    --bonnie
    

	Yes I agree that sarcasm can be amusing between friends, but it
	can get out of control ...

	For example :

	We have a lady working in the department who has the ability to 
	get on about everybodies wick. She's VERY self-centred and loves
	to get the last word in, ie Even if she's proved wrong and accepts
	it, she'll walk away agreeing with you to suddenly pop up her
	head and say "Ahh yes, but I think I'm right ANYWAY", and be gone
	with her nose in the air before you have a chance to reply.
	( By the way we have a bloke working here that dose the same thing
	so I'm not saying that all women are like that - far from it in
	fact ).

	Anyway - we were all do the pub when she started going on about
	how clever she was etc. We all sat there gritting our teeth and
	trying to think of excuses to leave when she suddenly went at 
	someone who was smoking and said ..

	"I think smoking is a DISGUSTING habit, I have NO bad habits
	at all" and looked very self righteous ..

	Something snapped inside and under my breath I replied ..

	"Well you breath don't you ??"

	Which went down a treat with the people there who heard. 
	Fortunately the women thought I said 'read' so it was passed over.
	If she had heard me correctly I could have got into a lot of
	trouble.

	The people here still talk about it, but it makes me sweat just
	thinking about it.

	Paul.

    I agree that sarcasm is a very effective vehicle for humor, in fact
    probably one of the most sophisticated.  It's when it is directed
    in personal situations that it becomes a negative.  When it's used
    to put people down it is probably equally effective at producing
    pain as it is humor (I lived with an expert at it).
    

    my roommate and i have lived together for two years.
    he has been in the country for about two and a half now.
    at first i found his sarcasm very hurtful,now i am more or less
    used to it.
    at the end of this month we will no longer"flatting" together.
    i will miss him and his "strange" sense of humor.
    
    					kelly

    I don't like sarcasm; I have a very hard time figuring out what
    the sarcastic person *means*, if anything, and it is so often hostile.
    Not that there's anything innately wrong with hostility, but I guess
    I expect that if someone is hostile to me that's because they don't
    like me, and I don't like spending time with people who actively
    dislike me.  If all that "hostility" is nothing but humor, then,
    well, why not make it clear from the start, rather than confusing
    me all to hell?
    
    Lee 
    
    PS. The first time someone told me the word "gullible" isn't in
    the dictionary, I went to look it up...

    I wouldn't worry, Lee.  You're right about the difficulty in
    understanding what a sarcastic person *really* means, and that it's
    often hostile. However, there are lots of people running around who
    don't seem to like anyone or anything; I doubt that they're hostile
    to you because they don't like you, personally.
    
    I would agree that when I use sarcasm , I am often being hostile.
    Sometimes I actively dislike the person I'm being sarcastic about
    (the person I'm sarcasting???? There's a word invention for you...),
    but more often I just want to keep the other person at a distance.
    It's a way of saying "I'm friendly, I want this encounter to go
    well, I'd like the meeting or whatever to be cordial, but I have
    no desire whatsoever to find out anything about you as a person
    and if you misread this message and try to come closer, I'm liable
    to be downright nasty instead of merely sarcastic." 
    
    Part of the problem is that in our society, we think that because
    something is funny, it's "nothing but humor."  If you turn it into
    a joke, you can say almost anything you want about people no matter
    how nasty it is, and no matter how much you've hurt the subject
    of the joke, nobody's going to say anything to you. Maybe somebody
    will mention that you should be a little more careful when you tell
    a joke because somebody took it personally, but that's it. 
    
    --bonnie

    RE: Sarcasm
    
    I think Sarcasm is an English (as opposed to American) idea and that
    basically people in America don't always understand it. (before I get
    shot down,  I am not anti-Americans - a lot of my friends are American
    (no sarcasm intended!)) 
    
    A lot of English (again as opposed to American) humour programs use a
    lot of sarcasm and are extemely funny because of it, even if someone is
    getting insulted / offended by the sarcasm. e.g. think of the relation-
    ship of Basil Fawlty to his wife, in Fawlty Towers. 

    In other words - sarcasm in humour is good and its absence would
    detract from the humour, in some cases to the point of making it
    unfunny, but, in a personal situation you must be careful - I only tend
    to use sarcasm with people I know, and who I know won't get offended. I
    can easily understand how people could get upset over the unthoughtful
    use of it.
                                                     
    Also I don't tend to get too offended too easily if its used on me! but
    may be I am just thick(skinned)! 
    
    Andy.

    Better late than never...
    
    At the British company I used to work for before DEC - I met my
    husband, we were good friends and talked very often about problems
    we were experiencing.  The group we worked with were very sarcastic
    but in a non-personal way.  My husband had about 4 men working for
    him, they were all on friendly terms, but he had a problem with
    one of the men.  They would participate in witty moments of sarcasm
    - the problem, one of the men was taking the sarcasm seriously,
    and letting it hurt his feelings.  It became very serious - to the
    point where the man left the department.  I tried to explain to
    my husband that wit/sarcasm can be very hurtful, and that sometimes
    I had found it hurtful myself.  He eventually understood, wit is
    great with a good friends that understand your sense of humour.
     After all many a true word is said in jest... I myself like
    wit/sarcasm in the right place if not it can be hurtful and pointless.