Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    This is one of my biggest pet peaves Steve, I just can't 
    understand where people get their nerve.
    
    After two miscarriages I felt qualified to write a book on
    what people should NOT say to a person in this situation.
    
                         Examples
     "You can have other babies"
     "It could have been born retarded or deformed, you know"
     "At least it was a child you never knew"
     "It wasn't really a baby yet"   (this one outright pissed me off!)
     "You can always adopt"
    
       One of the absolute stupidest comments was "Did you get to see
       it" (meaning the baby).  I honestly could have died at the
       ignorance of this person.
    
              In these cases it was not jealousy but lack of
              anything better to say....which is what I would
              have preferred.
    
                                                  Sue
    

RE: .0

Well, my reaction in either case, would be, 



'Don't you have anything better to spend your money on?' :-)

But, no, that comment is not a matter of envy; it's a matter of differing
proirities.  I would not see much value in a SAAB, or big engagement ring;
you obviously do...

Jim.

re:  .0

	Wait until you get the "Look at the SNOB in the SAAB" line :-)
	The SAAB may be the most intelligent car ever built, but it
	certainly wasn't my car! :-)

	My 'theory' is that the problems are not really misplaced envy
	but rather projection of that person into your situation.  Their
	comments are more than likely how THEY perceive THEY would 
	react/feel etc. in such cases.  Which, if my 'theory' is correct
	indicates something of their character.

footnote:  'my theory' sounds vaguely familiar and has most likely been
            gleened from a psychology course somewhere.  So it isn't really  
            mine.

-Joe

        When I was in the fourth grade I hadthis absolutely devastating
        crush on Ann Lindsay a marvelously cute girl in the class. One
        day I was sitting in the back of the bus next to her on the way
        to a field trip and was casting desperately for something to
        say. 
        
        A car with a 4-digit license plate came up behind the bus and I
        said something like "look at the guy with the 'snob plates'",
        which is how my father occasionally spoke about our low-number
        plates that had been passed down through the family. Ann looked
        at me coldly and said "My father has 4-digit plates. I don't
        think it's snobbish." or something similar.
        
        I didn't die right then and there, but I wasn't sure I'd make
        it. I did learn to be very careful about to whom I said what
        about snobishness. I suspect I was very lucky to make the gaff
        when I was young enough to learn from it. At the time it seemed
        much to painful a lesson to learn though.
        
        JimB. 

    re .0:
    
    Was that a SnAAB or a SnAAB Turbo?
    
    - M

    Re: .5
    
    A SnAAB 900S, not a turbo.  But I don't want this to get into
    a comparitive discussion about cars.  My point was that the car
    had high practical value to me and was cheaper than other cars
    with some similar attributes.  In fact, I was biased AGAINST the
    SAAB because I shared the popular opinion that it was a yuppie
    car, and about a dozen people in my group had one.  But now I
    understand why it's so popular.  Thus I see where people are coming
    from when they think I'm being frivolous, but it bothers me anyway
    because in a sense I'm being unjustly accused.  I hate it when people
    thing negatively of me for the wrong reasons.  (I don't like it
    when they have right reasons, but that's different.)
    
    How about discussing the other situations I presented?
    
    				Steve
    
    

    The people I have observed with this type of behavior tend to feel
    that whatever they have is the best.  If they drive a BMW it is
    the only car to purchase, etc.  
    
    I receive a lot of grief about the neighborhood I live in (South
    End of Boston).  I love it and yet I have friends that refuse to
    visit me.  I take great pleasure in discussing at length the crime
    that occurs in the suburbs, the lack of public transportation and
    the neutrality of the neighborhoods.
    
    This is a classic instance where the philosophy I have tried to
    develop works well.  What other people say and do can only bother
    me if I choose to let it.  If they want to buy 5 Ford's to your
    1 SAAB that is their problem.  You can laugh all the way to the
    bank!

    Come on, Steve, a Saab *is* a yuppie car. I bought mine for sensible
    reasons too, but that doesn't mean it isn't a yuppie car.
    
    	Jon

    Ok, I admit it - I'm a ...  (I can't say it) - you know - the
    "Y" word...  Now where did I put my Perrier?
    
    				Steve

    If a Y***ie is a wise consumer I want to be one...
    
    If a Y***ie lives in the South End I am one...
    
    If a Y***ie earns over $50,000 I wish I was one...
    
    If a Y***ie is interested in her/his career, the arts, and
    investments I am one...
    
    If a Y***ie is under 35 I am a Muppie!!!

    Whats all the fuss about!! its **YOUR** money, if you want to buy
    a SAAB (which I think is a great car) go ahead an buy one, there
    is NO law against it...  
    
    I think people should be able to spend there money on what *THEY*
    want not what their friends, (ex-friends) want to spend it on...
    if they were *REALLY* your friends they would want a ride in it,
    NOT crow about it!)
    
    I drive a Vauxhall Astra (normal, no yuppie bits), I live in a nice
    but fairly cheap house (no yuppie bits) and I have a paste stone
    in my 'Diamond' ring...
    
    but I have a house full of Macaws (big parrots) which I love, and
    have probably spent the equivalent to buying several SAABS, or even
    a PORSCHE (yup, yup), and if ANYBODY calls me a YUPPIE...
    
    I will *PECK* them on the **BEAK!!!!!**
    
    Andy.

    face it steve 
    you either are or really wish you were a yuppie

All kidding aside, this conversation is pretty funny.

To add my bit, a real yuppie has ferns in the bathroom.  I'll wait while
you check.

    re: .-1 - yes, this is fun, and like the bit about the ferns...
    
    On possessions (as I warned in 273.*, the "general" yuppie note), I've
    got some guilt about a new car I want to share with you all.   There's
    also a few thoughts about people who show off, and (as .13 says) think
    about life, and probably about showing off too.
     

    OK, I got this new Vauxhall SRI (I think it was a new yuppie car 3 or 4
    years ago).   Anyway, like most UK yuppie cars apart from the BMW and
    Golf, it has lots of stripes, labels, fuel injection, etc.   I got it
    for a) the fuel injection engine, never had one,  b) to attract women -
    I still need one (or more),  c) because I got it through DEC's leasing
    scheme, I assume the insurance cost is lower than it would be for me
    myself.   Anyway, the extra insurance and servicing costs are "hidden"
    in the lease cost to me. 

    Now, I feel very uncomfortable driving the thing about.   I don't look
    the part (older, long-haired, non-dresser).    I go to Glasgow with it
    quite a lot, and worry about it getting vandalised or stolen, as can
    happen in most big cities. 
    
    The only woman I've been out with since I got it, was so hard up
    herself (struggling small business after being unemployed), it was
    embarassing thinking about the lease cost relative to her financial
    crises over much smaller amounts.    And in general (seeing as I'm
    still looking), I'm not happy with the idea of being noticed by other
    women for my car rather than for my other good (but well-hidden)
    points. 
    
    Some of this discomfort must relate to upbringing - sobre working-class
    family connections a long way back (despite considerable hardships), a
    preference for "quiet" dignified behaviour.   I was greatly attracted
    by the Amish "simple" dress rules in "Witness", for example - would
    seem to save a lot of problems in trying to dress pleasantly but not
    flashily.
    
    Anyway, I don't really want to change to fit the car - I'd rather
    change the car (or paint out the "go-faster" labels) except that it's
    on a 3-year lease.   And I do dislike Yuppies in general (though one or
    two of my few friends are showing signs of similar symptoms). 

    I think people should be conscious of, and sensitive to, their effect
    on others.   That suggests they shouldn't dress too flashily, wear
    too much jewellery or drive too expensive cars.   Definition of
    "too" is difficult.    Anyone want to swop thoughts, or potted ferns?
                                                                  

    Some of the comments in this discussion do illustrate the depths of
    human stupidity (e.g. "of course you want a boy" and the comments on
    the miscarriage), but others are more ambiguous. 
    
    Stop to consider why you think it's an insult when someone says you
    drive a yuppie car.  The y-word may imply a number of things to a
    number of people, but at root it's based on the acronym for Young Urban
    Professional -- in itself, a fairly straightforward identification of a
    socio-economic group.  But describing someone as a yuppie is like
    ordering milk in an old-west bar!
     
    Maybe my new car can help illustrate what I mean:  The first few times
    people refered to my nice new Dodge station wagon (maroon, with wood
    sides) as "Mom's taxi," I wasn't sure whether to hit them or cry.  I'm
    not some suburban housewife with nothing better to do than run kids
    around town in some old junkwagon! I'm a young professional woman
    concerned about my career and my role as woman in this society as well
    as my family! We got the car because it was the best buy for the money
    -- and it had a great sound system, to boot, besides plenty of room for
    the kids. 
    
    All right, let's face it: I'm the mother of two. The oldest takes dance
    lessons, is on a gymnastics team, and sees the orthodontist at least
    once a month; the youngest takes gymnastics too. I live in the suburbs
    of Nashua.  I spend a lot of my time running the kids around town.  (So
    does their father.)  This is a fact of life at my economic level in
    this country and has nothing to do with my personal worth.  A station
    wagon is a convenient way to meet this need.  The fact that lots of
    other people in similar situations opt for a similar solution doesn't
    comment on my personal worth either.  The fact that economics prevented
    us from considering a 'better' car, such as a Volvo station wagon,
    isn't a comment on our personal worth, either.  
    
    Would I have purchased a Volvo station wagon if I had the money?
    I don't know. There are so many other things I'd like to do with
    my money, like see Paris . . . but that's my choice and certainly
    doesn't reflect on the personal worth of those who choose to spend
    their money on cars. 
    
    All in all, I'm not sure if I'm a yuppie or not. Does Nashua qualify
    as urban????
    
    --bonnie, who would like to be able to think of herself as nouveau
    riche 

    

       "some suburban housewife with nothing better to do than run kids
        around town in some old junkwagon!"
    
    IF A WOMAN CHOOSES TO STAY HOME AND BE A HOUSEWIFE THAT DOES NOT
    DEVALUE HER CAREER.
    
    Yes, I was shouting!

re: .14
>To add my bit, a real yuppie has ferns in the bathroom.  I'll wait while
>you check.

Okay, Eric, i ALMOST qualify.  Ferns and mold are related (vaguely?),
right?
						-- mr. fluppie

    re: .17: 
    
    I don't blame you for shouting, but please note that I was describing
    my experience of realizing the correctness of your statement and my own
    unconscious and INVALID reactions to something I took as a criticism
    when it wasn't intended to carry any of the emotional baggage from the
    past that I loaded onto it.  
    
    I don't think that sharing a learning experience of my own in the
    hope that it will help someone else see a similar false assumption
    underlying their own reactions makes it a bad comment. Are we to
    never admit we've made a mistake? 
    
    --bonnie

    Re: .13--good reply.  Kindness and graciousness toward someone who
    innocently (or even not so innocently) offends you is a good thing.
    When I look back (and shudder!) at some of the really witless things
    I've said to people in the past, it's a wonder I made it this far!!
    
    Steve, I think you said it right the first time--people speak without
    thinking sometimes--we all do.  Maybe they can't think of anything
    to say, but want to say SOMETHING--and say the "wrong thing".  I
    don't know about you, but often when I haven't experienced a situation
    for myself, I automatically say or think the first cliche that comes
    to mind.  Not a great habit, but a common one!
    
    Bottom line, I think a lot of us say dumb things and don't really
    mean them the way they come out.
    
    ...for me, I would LOVE a big engagement ring!  Let anyone say
    anything---what would I care?!
    
    Jane

    
    Envy and wrath shorten the life.
    
    
    
    
                               Ray