Conference quark::human_relations-v1

	Bit depressing this reply so it might be an idea to skip it.

	What follows is TRUE ..

	I had over 20 operation performed on my hips - Unfortunately in
	one of them I died - (ie heart stopped beating, not brain dead as
	some of my 'friends' like to call it ) - anyway, they ressusitated (?)
	me, but I had gone into a coma.

	I was in the Intestive Care Unit for 3 weeks, not getting any better -
	They'd tried all the known methods of bringing me out of it ie having
	my parents talk to me, friends etc, but nothing was working and they
	were losing me - They realised I just didn't WANT to get better so I
	wouldn't respond.

	Finally, my father thought of bringing in our cat - I'd grown up	
	with him - loved the bundle of fun - and after a lot of working out
	they finally agreed to let a cat into the I.C.U. of a large British
	Hospital.

	They put Smokey (the cat's name) on my bed - he wandered over my 
	stomach ( I learnt this later from my Father ), looked a bit confused
	because I wasn't responing - finally he crawled up until he was
	under my arm - rested his head on my shoulder and rasped his tongue
	over my cheek. My arm came up and started stroking him - he purred
	happily - looked at my parents as if to say

	"Look, that was easy wasn't it ??"

	and went to sleep on my shoulder.

	I was out of I.C.U. three days later - I s'pose Smokey saved my life
	The reason ?? - I don't really know - however I hadn't (and still
	don't ) get on very well with my parents  - I find it almost
	impossible to show the affection I feel to my fellow man ( better
	change that to Woman ), but with Smokey I wasn't self-concious
	I loved him - and in his way he loved me, and we showed that love
	to each other.

	Don't really know if that answers the question in .0, but it's
	my story.

	Paul.

    Perhaps this response won't be very popular but I'm pretty sure
    it will be another reasonable possibility to ponder.
    Most of us don't realize WE are the essence of love...I mean the
    extention of the love that is already within each of us. We have
    been conditioned, thru doubt, external motivation, and many other
    things to believe we are "incomplete" so we all go looking for
    love from someone (another person) else. Unfortunately,this means
    we place expectations on others and then are dis-appointed when
    they don't meet our "expectations".
    
    This can be for many of us a nightmare of forever looking this 
    external fulfillment.
    
    If on the other hand we understand that we already have an abundance
    of love within us our external looking takes on a different meaning
    and purpose.
    
    Now back to pets.
    
    Because we have been dis-appointed so often by our brothers ,sisters
    ,mates , religions, politicans....you can go on forever we often
    turn to pets for feelings of love.
    
    You see a pet will usually give you un-conditional love and not
    "betray" us as another human being will.
    
    When we see people enjoying their pets (tv shows examples a lot)
    what we are seeing is the pet bringing forth the love that already
    abides in the person.It's always been there...although it may not
    be always visible or understood.
    
    It's like looking at the sky on a rainy day...even though we don't
    see it the sun never went away.
    
    The bottom line is when we start to look and find the love within
    ourselves we'll see how silly we can be at times expecting it from
    others and then being angry "at them" for not giving us what we
    already have.
    
    Bob
    

    I agree with .3 about the unconditional love part.  Who else can
    you come home and dump your troubles on that listens.....and
    then just licks your face.......even if you confess the worst sin
    of your life.  Most animals only ask of us what we are willing to
    give as far as attention so they are at our convenience.
    
    Being a kid for me meant being an only child, and I guess in a way
    my animals were a substitute for brothers and sisters.  They offered
    solace when all of those BIG people in my life were upset with me.
    Fur can absorb a lot of tears.
    
    Our house now is loaded with animals, everyone has one, (but in
    reality they all belong to me) and I wouldn't have it any other
    way.  After having a "road kill" three years ago we agreed that
    we wouldn't get another dog.  Too risky and to hard to take the
    death, but about a month ago, one came our way, so who were to refuse
    the offer.  Suckers every time.  
                                                 

Studies have shown that snuggling animals has a calming effect on most
people, and does much for doing stuff like lowering blood pressure. I
for one, prefer dawgs to some of the people I know :-).

Bahama Mama

RE. 3

That was very well put. I guess the bottom line is that you cannot
really love another person until you can truly love yourself. 

I believe that our pets bring forth that unconditional loving that
we all have within us, but are afraid to express because of past
hurts and disappointments. 

Wouldn't it be a beautiful world if all of us could love one another
unconditionaly and with no expectations....but the harsh reality is
that life is not like that...many of us have been hurt very deeply
by loving unconditionaly, and the person we loved took advantage of
and abused this love. 

A child loves unconditionaly, a young man and young woman love 
unconditionaly....and everyone lives happily ever after.....oh..
if only life could be so simple.......

But...back to pets. Pets bring love, joy, and comfort to so many
people. Maybe there's a special kind of magic that they have...
they do seem to bring out love and hope to so many who otherwise
would live very sad and lonely lives. The sound of a dogs bark has
brought it's master out of a coma, the softness of a kitten has 
given the elderly the strength to go on with life. 
    
kathie 

    

    
    I'm no expert on this stuff.  I've never even had a pet.  But:
    
    I don't see why you should be any less hurt by the thought of Noah
    dying, particularly with the way you describe his role in your life
    at the moment.
    
    Our resevoir of feelings is not bottomless, you know.  No matter
    how easy it would be to replace Noah's physical presence, you have
    invested (that's not really the word I want) your time and your
    affection with this kitten.  And you would have to start all over
    again, minus whatever Noah took with him.
    
    With all the V-shaped depressions one hits on the walk of life,
    anything that makes us really feel better becomes very precious.
    Should it be taken away, we feel loss, no matter who or what the
    source of soothing might be.
    
    DFW

    I too love animals.  To say that a pet is "just an animal" seems
    strange... pets allow us to go out and work all day so that we can
    buy them food and treats and keep a roof over them and keep them
    warm .. they don't mind if we want to pretend that we do very important
    things with our lives as long as dinner is served on time... 
    sometimes I wonder just who is the pet after all ...them or us :-)  
    (My neufoundland dog and cat think I'm a fine little pet) ;-)

    
    	I like the "Unconditional Love" explanation; there are times
    when we all (still) need to give and get *this* kind of love -
    
    	Pets allow unconditional love to be expressed again...
    
    	Funny, I dont seem to mind when Mr Jinx "sleeps with" my roomate!
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    "Owning" (really "being owned by") a pet is another wonderful way
    to give and get love.  My cat adopted me 10 years ago in front of
    my laundromat--and presto! I was under the spell.  She's with me
    still, and as regal as ever.  When I took her home the first time,
    she filled a space in my life.  I was in a job I didn't really like,
    I had just broken up with someone, and my landlord was being a pain
    and I wanted to move.  Within a month of having Billie, I found
    a great apartment, changed jobs, and started seeing someone else.
    I won't say she MADE all these things happen, but she sure made
    me happy, and I guess the impetus was there to improve everything.
    
    I was also an only child, and when I was 5, we picked out a kitten
    for me, and this cat lived until I was a sophomore in college!!
    Needless to say, she meant a lot to me, and loving her made the
    way to love another cat later on (Billie).  Loving them is wonderful;
    losing them hurts a lot, but like any other kind of love, it "fattens"
    your capacity to love again, I think.  
    
    As someone else said earlier, pets are pretty unconditional about
    their love for you.  Sure, it may be the fact that you faithfully
    feed them and tend to their welfare, BUT every pet-owner will always
    say what I say;  "But MY cat REALLY loves me--I can tell!"
    
    Pettishly,
    
    Jane
    

Animals have a very important part to play in life, and they are not the
only ones.  Don't we each really have a role to play for everyone that 
comes into our lives, or whose lives we enter?  I don't see us (humans)
as being separate from animals - we're all creatures and are part of
creation.  However, animals (particularly domesticated animals) have so
much to teach us about love and dignity, and we can assist them along
their evolutionary paths by loving them.

I'd like to share a story about a very special kitty who spent his short
life with me.

Mike (my so) and I moved in together in 1983 and wound up with 4 cats.  
My two, Cleo and Clancy, Mike's Annie, and a newly adopted 7-toed female
Mittsy.  The following summer (1984) Clancy passed away, so we decided
that it was time to get another kitty.  I was just starting a 2-month
leave of absence so the time was just right.  We decided to go to the
animal shelter in Salem, MA and look for an orange male kitten.  For
some reason we wanted an orange tabby.  Well we arrived and began
looking around, and it turned out that they had 3 orange kittens, each
one cuter than the other.  As I was standing by the cage watching these
kittens, another kitten in the next cage started making a racket,
meowing like crazy and looking totally pathetic.  He was black with a
small white spot on his chest and one white toe on his right rear paw, 
very tiny, had a stump tail, and the biggest ears I'd ever seen!  I
went over to pet him and he threw himself at my hand - he was so
desperate!  I called Mike over to see him and he said - "He's cute,
but he's not orange!".

I took him out of the cage and he curled up in my arms and purred like
crazy.  He seemed to need me so much that I couldn't leave him there.
We took him home - Cleo and Annie harrassed him like crazy, but Mittsy
adopted him and would even let him suckle just to soothe him.  We named
him Sammy.  He slept in our bed every night and we were always saying to one 
another "watch out - don't roll over and squash Sammy!".  In the mornings,
he would suck on our fingers, make bread like crazy, and purr his little
brains out!  He was just about the sweetest creature I've ever known.

Sammy died a little over a year ago from feline leukemia.  When I allow
myself to really remember, it still hurts as if it happened just today.
But what I came to realize during the time he was with us is that he
not only needed me - I needed him, and that the time we had together
was really a gift.  I wouldn't have missed it for anything.

Carole

    
    
    First the flames, in response to the original note.
    I am incensed that you would have such a cavalier
    attitude towards another living creature!  You let
    your cat out knowing that he runs the risk of being
    killed?  And then call yourself "silly" because you
    know he can be replaced with another, and another,
    and another?  How incredibly selfish can a person
    be?  YOU have a responsibility to that animal, to
    guard it's health and safety and treat it with love
    and respect, as an individual living being, not as
    a "toy" or something dispensible that can be easily
    replaced!!
    
                 <end of flames>
    
    Why do humans invite anything into their life that
    can love and be loved?  My son fills a particular
    need, or void, in my life.  The man I am involved
    with fills other needs or voids.  My dog fills yet
    another need or void.  All of them offer me an op-
    portunity to express positive emotions, the most
    important of which is love, which truely does make
    the world go around.  My world is warmer and happier
    and I am filled with feelings of love when I look
    into the gorgeous face of Morgan.  
    
     

I have no children, probably never will.  My wife has two, but they're
not mine.  We get along, but they're not mine.

But we have two cats.  And to me, they're kind of like my children.

I call them "honey" and "cutie".  They purr at me a WHOLE lot and I
love that.

I whistle for them and worry if they don't come in.

Sometimes my wife is even jealous at my concern over the cats.  Sometimes
I'm jealous at her attention to her real children !

Cats are wonderful.  They're wonderful to touch, to sleep with, to
talk with.

Barbara's parents came to vist for a week.  Her Dad is real old, 80's,
and hardly talks.  But you should have seen him perk up around the
cats.  Calling them, stroking them.  He was like a rejuvenated soul!

So yeah, if you can provide a good home for an affectionate pet, get
one.  They're so good for you.

/Eric

    Ive been single now for the last 10 years or so. Ive been in and
    out of X# of relationships with different women that came and went
    for various reasons. As stated before, we all have a tendency to
    place expectations of one form or another on a relationship with
    another person. I have both a dog and a cat, they have both been
    with me for the last 10 and 12 years respectively. In essence Ive
    learned from these animals. They give their own form of love and
    affection to me without expiations save those that continue their
    existence and health. 
    
    They care less weather I come home happy, sad, drunk, sober, or
    indifferent, they are always happy to see me. Even when they do
    something to upset me, they , not me are the first to do things
    to make amends. When a serious relation has gone bad or when I 
    am sick, they know and they become more affectionate than normal
    and comfort me with their presence.
    
    The bottom line is that they have accepted me in the truest
    form, who and what I am, without resavations, without tring to
    change me. For that reason alone I would never part with them 
    and will miss them terribly when they are gone. 
    
                                     Bob B

Wow...  There's a lot here...

It's nice to know that we all do have love within each of us.  Love that is
looking for a way out.  We have to keep looking for ways to let ourselves love,
even if we've been hurt.  We have to keeping looking for ways to love others,
even when they are hurting and are angry or fearfull. We have to look for ways
to let others love us, even when we want to be ourselves, seperate.  We have to
look for ways to love ourselves.

What kind of relationships do we have with our pets?  People do weird things
with their pets in treating them like people.  If only people would treat people
like people.  Then again, maybe people could learn some humility from pets; how
many people would dream of running up to someone and whining to be petted?

However, pets are not people.  Has anyone ever tried to marry their pet? Sure,
you love your pet, but calling your relationship with your pet a marriage does
not make it so.  We do this all the time to ourselves labelling things, thinking
that by magic they become what we label them, and ignoring the unreality of our
thoughts ...  Is a homosexual marriage a real marriage?  Is anyone's marriage a
real marriage?

But I digress...  I guess I might as well ramble back to work...

Jim. 

    Re .13:
    
    While my pet _is_ another living being, he is JUST an animal.  I
    love him dearly and have come to depend on him (As seen by my reaction
    on getting home and finding him missing), but he is an ANIMAL!!
    I EAT animals almost every day!  His being a pet and a being that
    I love does not change the fact that I have known the goat we are
    going eat next time I visit my Mom longer than I have known this cat.
    
    The goat, while raised for the express purpose of providing us with
    milk, was treated as a pet in many ways.  Well, she's dead now, and I
    didn't just "run the risk" of letting her get killed; I helped! I have
    helped butcher deer and bear, I have plucked chickens and geese (can't
    wring the neck as I have no stomach for it.  Mom does that, crying
    every time she does), and my brother and I once tried squirrel (awful
    meat).  When raised poor and in the backwoods of Maine, one tends
    to have a very different attitude about animals' role; if hungry,
    eat it.  Costs less.
    
    It's a harsh attitude, borne of a harsh reality, but that is how
    I was raised, and unless I decide that it is wrong to eat meat of
    any kind (become vegetarian), then I don't understand what makes
    a cat any different from a goat.  Except, as .3(?) put it, Noah
    is an outlet for the love within me, something I think hits the nail
    on the proverbial head.    
    
    Many animals suffer because of their status as "pets."  When I worked
    on a horse farm, we had a 31-year-old Morgan named Clyde.  Clyde was
    perfect for taking little kids for their first horsey-ride, as he was
    too old and arthritic to act up.  Once I touched his heels with a whip
    by mistake, and you should have seen his reaction.  He stopped dead
    in his tracks.  The forfeet came up then plunked on the ground.
     The the hindlegs did the same.  It took us a while to realize that
    poor Clyde was trying to buck.

    (to quell upcoming flames, when walking a horse in a circle
    on a line, you hold a very long, very light whip right behind the
    horse.  That whip is used to signal the horse to start, go faster,
    slower, and stop.  If you're good, the signals can instruct the horse
    to do quite complicated maneuvers.  The horse is never touched with the
    whip, unless you're very bad at what you are doing.) 

    The point is, Clyde should have been killed long ago, as he was
    suffering.  Because he was the owner's pet, he was kept in pain
    for years.  How often do we see an animal suffer because he is a
    pet the owner can't bear to let die?  How is causing the death
    of an animal worse than making it suffer so its owner won't be sad?
    
    At some point, caring for a pet can become hazardous to that pet's
    well-being.  When does our love for a pet become torture for it?

    On a similar note, cat food is expensive as is kitty litter, as
    is the time you take to excercise your dog.  I am perpetually broke
    and pressed for time, still i make these sacrifices for Noah.  If
    I were raising children (as my mom still is), would I be able to
    afford an animal's upkeep?  Would I do so at the sacrifice of the
    welfare of my human dependent(s)?  A lot of people do...

    One last defensive note: Noah came from a shelter.  He would have
    been killed if no one adopted him.  What's the difference if he
    is killed now or later?  The "quality of life"?  What quality is
    there to a life within four walls?  As I said, he is very afraid
    of cars and unlikely to go anywhere near the road.  Also as I said,
    the Turnpike is heavily fenced in (electric, I think, as the AMTRAK
    runs along it where I live).  The unlikeliness of his being hit
    by a car coupled with his unhappiness in my small apartment makes
    me feel it is all right to let him go outside.  That decision was
    not made lightly, and I kept him inside until he was an adult (he
    was fixed 1.5 months before being allowed outside, and I stayed
    with him the first few times to make sure he'd be okay.  This kitten
    is important to me, and I make no "cavalier" decisions about his
    welfare.
    
    Lee

    Might I remind you that you and I and all homo sapiens are
    also "just animals"?
    
    Pets cannot be expected to be "responsible" enough to avoid
    cars, poison, petnappers who sell them to laboratories, other
    animals, traps, small boys with pellet guns, and various and
    sundrie other hazards to their health.  That is OUR responsi-
    bility.  Would you allow your child to wander unattended?  I
    think not.  
    
    You are incorrect to assume that your cat would be "unhappy"
    if confined to "four walls" (although I assume your home con-
    sists of more than just four walls).  Cats and dogs live very
    well in an enclosed environment, and may be taken out for 
    SUPERVISED out-of-doors activity.  
    
    You have strayed from the subject when you introduce the topic
    of animals raised for human consumption.  Again, those animals
    deserve (although I realize this is idealistic) to live in hu-
    mane conditions, and die in a humane manner.
    
    But getting back to the subject of pets-just because this particular
    cat may have died at the shelter does not mean that his life is
    not worth preserving, or protecting.  Lethal injection is much 
    less painful than dying in the engine of a car....or laying for
    days on the side of a road, mortally wounded....or being torn to
    shreds between the jaws of two dogs....
    
    

    

    Another area that needs to be looked at with compassion and under-
    standing is the real grief and loss some people feel when they
    lose a pet.  To me love is love and when the being that is loved
    leaves our lives, it hurts as much no matter if they were human
    or animal.  I was so happy to see a program on TV (I don't remember
    what station it was on) about grieving for pets.  Some veterinarians
    have people on their staff that are available to be with and council
    people who have just lost a pet.  Very often there is no one to
    go to that will understand the grief you are feeling.
    
    I remember bringing Sammy to the vets that morning - it was a
    terribly painful decision to have him put to sleep.  I asked the
    doctor to please check him again to make sure there was nothing
    more we could do for him - there wasn't.  Mike and I were with
    him as he passed to spirit.  As hard as that was, I couldn't let
    him die alone.  The doctor understood all these emotions and he
    said "I know that if it were my time to die, I would want my
    friends to be with me".  A few days later I tried to share what
    I was feeling with a friend of mine, and she basically brushed it
    off.
    
    We have to start understanding that for many people, grief is
    grief not matter if they have lost a human loved one or an animal
    loved one.  And they are feeling a lot of pain.  And each of us needs
    to know that it is ok to grieve for the loss of a loving and
    loved animal.
                 
    Carole
    

    While strolling thru the mall a few months ago, my daughter and
    I wandered into Pet City.  There was this little tiny bouncy thing
    in a cage.  I asked the lady what exactly is that?  It was a chihuahua
    and cocker mix.  She was maybe 3 lbs, black with the biggest ears
    I have seen on such a little dog.  So, I bought her.  She was the
    most loving wonderful prideful dog with the strut of a regal being.
    we named her Brittney.  We only had her for two days, she was my
    baby, she went everywhere with me, when I went to bed, she curled
    up next to my neck.  My God, I have never fallen in love with an
    animal so quickly.  The third day she died of a virus, parvo.  My
    heart was broken.  My daughter and kitty tried to console me but
    it took a long time to get over her death.  I found out later that
    the pet store I bought her at has a rep of not giving the pups the
    shots they are to have to prevent the virus.  I called around like
    a fiend to report the pet store but noone felt that there was a
    problem.  I still have not ventured near any pet stores or shelters.
    The empty spot in my heart belongs to Brittney.
    
    vivian

RE .0 & .18

	This topic is a real hot on for me
FLAME = FULL!!!     

Animals for survival (food) and animals for pets are basicly one in the
same. Cattle are raised for meat and other sundrie products, but they are
not left to graze where cars can "feed" on them (that barbed wire ain't there
to keep the wolves out ya know). Ever see a cattle after a car has hit
it?? Cattle are pretty tough animals and won't die real fast. 
	Imagine yourself being raised in a sterle environment for 25 years 
(from birth) and never knowing about pain, death or cars. Then you get 
released on a dirt road in the country  and you start
wandering around looking at all the sights (remember, this is all new to you...)
and you wander out into the middle of the road. SUDDENLY a car blasts it horn 
at you. You stand there wondering, "What the Hell is going on" and you freeze! 
Then WHAM, you are lying in the dirt and mud with one leg crushed, you have 
broken ribs and a broken collar bone (but still alive) and are wondering 
"What happened to me!!!" Of course, there is no one around to help so all you
can do is lie there in pain and agony waiting to die, PRAYING to die to end the
suffering and pain!!! Maybe in a few days you'll die, but all you can think
about is ending the pain....
	Here you are, innocent of things that can can hurt you and you get 
nailed. Not much different than a dog or cat getting splattered all over the 
road. They too are innocent to cars and man-made machines of distruction.

	When you see a cat or a dog playing with a razor blade, you take it
away. You don't give animals the opportunity to injure themselves. They don't
know any better. Just like the example above, the innocent human didn't know
any better, because the person did not understand and there got brutally
injured and left to die.
	I am a dog owner and would not let my animal lose for cars to hit or
tied up in the back yard in severe weather (I wouldn't tie him up in any case.)
as some a**holes do with what they call "pets". A fence to a cat is like a paper
wall to my dog. A 6 foot stockade will hold him as he can not climb over
something like that due to his size (he could break thru if provoked enough),
but a cat can climb over a fence like nobodys business. Leaving a cat outside
is asking for trouble as they WILL find a way out. Maybe not today, but get
bored enough and felines can ge VERY creative, but what about tomorrow.....
	My cousin is a farmer. Two summers ago I was visiting and he had a calf
that had an injured hoof. He had the vet come out and when the vet arrived,
he ran down with him to help with what he could. The calf will get big enough
to sell for slaughter someday, but just because it will be, doesn't mean he 
can't take care of it now. He was being responsible. The calf was in pain and
he spent big buck to fix it.
	Humans have a responsibility to animals to protect them to dangers that
we take for granted (horn honks, we move out of the road...). To say that a 
cat can be replaced from the human society is bullsh*t!!! Yeah, the physical
cat can be replaced, but the soul is one of a kind, and can not be replaced.
My dog can NEVER be replaced. Mogul has a one of a kind attitude that no
other dog could ever possibily replace.

THE ATTITUDE THAT ANIMALS ARE EXPENDIBLE IS WHAT MAKES ANIMALS SHELTERS OVER
CROWDED AND ANIMALS DEAD MEAT ON OUR ROADS.

	I have a very hard time with people who say they are animal lovers
and yet subject their pets to all kinds of dangers. Pets are trusting
creatures and as they trust us, we should understand that and do what is
right to protect them. I wouldn't anymore subject my dog to anything that I
wouldn't subject a child to and I treat Mogul like a child. Sure I yell at him
sometimes, but it is out of love and caring. I don't say, "Go out and play in
the traffic"!!! Leaving him outside alone is the same thing as saying "go out
and play in the traffic."
	Take responsibility for other living things as you would yourself or
maybe you do play in traffic....in which case I can understand your thinking.








	If your cat could talk, would you tell him that he was expendible and
could be replaced by another cat? Think about it......

Chuck

ps; Put the base note in CANINE NOTES and see what they have to say.

    Please - the subject of indoor versis outdoor animals has been
    discussed extensively with much flaming at times in both canine
    and feline notes. There were those who felt very strongly on
    both sides of the issue and the terminal almost smokes when 
    you read throught the notes. May I strongly urge people who feel
    an urge to continute to address this aspect of this note to
    take it to one of the animal related conferences.
    Bonnie

    When you see the bonding that goes on between a small child and
    his or her rag doll or teddy bear or, oh yes, Linus_blanket--all
    inanimate objects--is it really surprising to see the bonding between
    adults and live pets who have their own personalities?
    
    The anguish on losing a pet who has become an integral part of your
    home life is real.

    Marge
    

    I have a cat and a kitten (Soxx and Lace respectively) both were
    basic stray types. Soxx I found in a park in a box with four other
    kittens. He and his sister were the only survivors. His sister made
    it for two days and then she died. Lace I found in a (no joke) flea
    market sitting in a aquarium (which was absolutely filthy). She
    was so small I had to feed her with an eye dropper for about a month.
    The owners were packing up their car and were going to leave her.
    
    Last night I had the worst news of my life. My kitten, Lace, has
    Feline Lukemia. Also my other cat, Soxx, has it as well. I was told
    basically I had two decisions let them live and they will die even-
    tually or have them put to sleep before they really suffer.
    
    Yes there is a bonding between someone and their pets/animals/whatever
    you label them. When you pick up an animal and it rubs against your
    face and purrs you can't help but fall in love with it. I am very
    glad though my dogs can't catch it as well.
    
    Saturday Lace, Soxx, and I are going to the vets for the last time.
    
    Debbi

    
    	Re -23:
    
    	Yeah, animals should never be considered "expendible" or
    "replaceable"...
    	
    	Mr Jinx comes and goes as he pleases. In 4 years, two locations,
    he's never had any problems with "cars" or "dogs". He's not stupid.
    He *can* take care of himself. I worry much more when I see a skunk
    crawl under the back porch :'(
    
    	Sometimes animals get hit just because they cannot see well
    enough to cross the road in time. How well does your dog see? Can
    he catch a frisbee?
    
    	Love and freedom go hand in hand - unless you dont know what
    freedom is!
    
    	JJJ
     

    Dear .21 and .25---
    
    I wish I could tell you to be comforted and that you would be. 
    Loss of love IS loss no matter how you look at it.  You are, however,
    much richer for loving and having the love of your animals for the
    time that you did.  I am convinced that the reason we love--people
    or animals--is to make us open to love again and again.  Loving
    Brittney, or Soxx and Lace makes a place in your hearts to love
    another animal(s).  Nothing can replace the specialness of those
    animals you had, but hopefully you will love others for their own
    qualities.
    
    Thank God, too, that you are humane enough not to let your animals
    suffer needlessly.  You have loved them, and they have loved you.
    Grieving for them is not only right; it's natural.  
    
    When you feel you can, let another animal into your heart.  One
    sure thing in this life is the more we love, the more we CAN love.
    
    God go with you on Sat.,
    
    Jane

    Re .25
    
    I'm sorry, Debbi; I lost my last kitten (Jonah) to feline leukemia,
    too.  I didn't even know it existed at the time, and she died less
    than 24 hours after she started to act sick.
    
    Jonah did the same for me as Noah does now, although that isn't
    to say that Noah has _replaced_ Jonah; I invested time in training
    Jonah the way I like, and emotion in getting to know her.  

    Nonetheless, I agree with -.1, though: get a new kitten as soon as you
    can. It helps immensely.
    
    Lee 

    .23
    
    Yes, Bonnie, this IS a place for this discussion.  Not
    the issue of indoor vs outdoor, but rather, of our re-
    sponisibilty to the living things in our lives.  Not 
    only what those pets bring to our lives, but what we
    offer in return.  The original note that started this
    discussion set the tone for the responses to which you
    object.  If you feel this is inappropriate, then I sug-
    gest that the ENTIRE discussion be deleted from this
    conference and moved to one relating to animals.  
    
    
    to.

More ramblings...

If we 'use' our pets as an outlet for our love, isn't that rather selfish?
Certainly if we have an overprotective mother hanging all over us, her loving
us is viewed as selfish and self serving...

Is that really love?

RE: .29

The big problem is that you don't believe that your pets could survive without
you;  other people do believe that their pets are capable of taking care of
themselves.

Jim. 

    Lee,
    
    My dog Duke as Basenji is currently suffering from what appears
    to be a brain tumor. He is on medication to control seizures
    but has diminished vision and hearing. He came to us as a stray
    14 or 15 years ago. (Ever since I saw the Disney movie Farwell
    My Lady I had wanted a Basenji and one day one moved in with us!)
    It is very likely that we will have to decide to put him down 
    before too much longer. There is really no hope for any improvement.
    
    I have also lost two cats to feline leukemia and one to breast
    cancer...
    
    You never get used to loosing them - but I'd never be without
    animals in my life either.
    
    re .29
    
    The subject of indoor vs. outdoor pets like that of spanking
    has the ability to really tear a conference apart. It is one
    where both sides have very little ability to communicate with 
    each other. 

    .30
    
    You are absolutely correct.  My pets CANNOT survive without
    me.  Most domestic animals DON'T fare well when left to
    their own devices.  That would account for the number of
    dead or injured animals on the roadside.  It would also ac-
    count for the number of cats killed by dogs or coyotes. And
    the number of dogs killed by other dogs.  The number of 
    feral animals found half-starved and disease-ridden.  Shall
    I continue?  I'd rather not, it's all rather depressing to
    me.  I don't let my small boy run free and unsupervised and
    I don't let my pets run free and unsupervised either.  And
    fortunatly, the one dog and one cat that have died, both
    died from diseases associated with old age.  
     

        You can say all you want to about death being better than
        suffering and flame all you want about insensativity and
        selfishness, but I don't by the necessity of it.
        
        My dog Rusty lived to the age of 16. For the last year or two
        people were urging me to have hime "put to sleep" or "killed"
        depending on how you want to emotionally load the terminology.
        The facts were that he was very old, arthritic, nearly blind
        with catteracts and still completely capable of joy.
        
        He was to stiff to climb the stairs on his own, but preferred
        the foot of my parents bed to any other spot, so we carried him
        up and down each evening or morning. And as he stiffly curled
        up after making the traditional "nest" in the covers by walking
        in three circles he would smile in the way a dog can.
        
        He still took his duties as guard dog very seriously, and would
        challenge any man or beast he couldn't recognize who cam on ouor
        property. The other dogs in the neighborhood would always back
        respectfully off the property (although an arthritic Brittainy
        Spaniel is not a terrible menace). He'd been top dog long enough
        and was obviously harmless enough that they acceeded. Of course
        one day I did find him facing down an absolutely viscious
        Praying Mantis! When I came up to see what induced the
        territorial barking, he gave it one last growl and look up to me
        with a faithful "See, I can still protect the home front" look.
        
        He died one night at the end of a party I had my senior year in
        High School. He always loved people. When he noticed the music
        and laughter (about � hour after the party started--he was a
        little deaf), he came "running" out to the den his tail
        a-wagging (at about a half a cycle per second) and "jumped" up
        onto one of the leather chairs he knew he wasn't allowed onto.
        (Well, the front half made it all the way. I had to help lift
        the tail-end up.) He spent the rest of his life their begging
        cheese and other things that probably weren't good for him. And
        when the party ended, he put his head down and never woke up.)
        
        Yes, he suffered. But he also had fun. He was happy most of the
        time. You could see it in his eyes. He died the way he'd want
        to, I think, doing what he knew he wasn't supposed to surrounded
        by people who loved him. It hurt to see him suffer. At times it
        hurt a lot. But at other times you could see the devil in his
        eye, the joy in his tail. This was a 16 year old puppy. Half-
        blind, arthritic, and maybe a little on the senile side (but
        then he always was crazy), but a puupy none-the-less.
        
        Call me insensative or selfish or inhumane if you want, but I
        could never look him in the eye, and say "you have to be killed
        for your own good." I couldn't rob him of the joy he obviously
        took in is last days just as he had in his first. I could see it
        in his eyes--the good one at least--he was the same dog, the
        same hell-raiser, he always was, a little slower, a little
        stiffer, but he was still there. He still relished life and
        trouble. It was worth it to him. He knew he was loved. And love
        makes the pain worthwhile. 
        
        You can tell me how abhorant my actions are, but I KNOW and he
        knew that what I did I did for love. We knew that what he had
        was worth what it cost us both. You can say anything you want,
        but what I did was right for us, and you can never know
        otherwise--you weren't there. 
        
        And you know what? Some animals can actually survive in the
        out-of-doors. Some animals actually eveolved there. It may
        be hard for city-bred folks to comprehend, but some country-
        raised animals are actually able to take care of themselves
        and survive outside the walls of our houses and apartments.
        Some of us let our animals live indoors and out out of love
        and respect and understanding.
        
        And you know what? Some animals can't cope with the wide-open
        world. Some animals have been so conditioned that they can't
        recognize and survive the simplist of dangers. And some animals
        live in areas where the environment is so alien and so dangerous
        that they have know way of recognizing or escaping dangers. Some
        people actually protect there animals by keeping them inside all
        the time.
        
        And you know what? Some animals, like some people just give up
        when life gets hard. Some animals can't see the joy in daily
        living through the pain they suffer in their last days or
        months. Some people out of love and respect and concern end life
        when it has become a burden to heavy to bear. 
        
        And you know what? Some humans are so tied up in their own
        experiences, are so blind that they can't see the facts before
        them. Some people can't tell love from indifference. Some people
        can't understand any expression of love but their own, and
        strike out at what they can't understand. Some people have to
        sit in judgement and tell others how vile and horrid they are
        for loving in the wrong way. 
        
        And you know what? Sopme moderators are so hide-bound they
        delete notes which cast judgements on others. They are so
        concerned with making sure that people obey the injunction to
        not speak badly of others that they actually censor discussions
        by deleting notes.
        
        And you know what? I've about had it with judgement-passing
        replies under this topic, boys and girls. Ease up on those
        whose love is different than your own.
        
        JimB.

    Jim,
    
    That was one of the most beautiful dog stories I have read in a
    long time - I sincerely hope that I am able to do the same for
    Duke. I would so much prefer to have him die in his sleep. When
    I had to have my goat put down for incurrable arthritis - she
    could no longer stand up and was riddled with sores, and the same
    for my cat with inoperable breast cancer I cried and cried both
    times and yet in those cases there was no other choice.
    
    I also think that was the most tactful way of dealing with 
    the other issues that I have ever seen. Your are definitely
    a diplomat.
    
    Cheers
    
    Bonnie

    Gee, Jim!  Simmer down a little, okay?  
    
    It's obvious that Rusty had and always will have,
    a very special place in your heart.  I was not sug-
    gesting that dogs and cats be euthanized as soon as
    they show signs of old age.  That's a decision only
    the pet owner can make, with the advice of a good
    vet...
    
    Please refer back to the base note that started this
    discussion.  The writer explained that she was afraid
    that she had lost "another" cat on the turnpike.  And
    that she could always replace the current one.  THAT
    attitude is the one to which I object.  That people
    will let their animals run free and face mutilation 
    and/or death, and then cry when the creature is gone,
    and then bring home another one to face the same hazards.
    
    I'm real tired of friends crying to me about how "sad"
    they are that their current pet has <insert one: died
    in the engine of a car; come home riddled with air gun
    pellets; disappeared; been run over; been killed by
    dogs>.....those incidents COULD have been avoided.
    
    We have "country" areas here in Colorado-and packs of
    dogs run loose, killing and harrassing livestock and
    domestic pets.  These are not wild animals.  These are
    animals with years of domesticity behind them.  
    
    Please re-read carefully what I have said, Jim.  I am
    simply asking that people treat their animals with the
    respect and love they deserve.  Common sense.
    
    

    re .33
    That was a great note Jim.  Although my animals are always kept
    confined (city dweller).. I often feel guilty depriving them of their
    freedom....and I wonder what gives us humans the right to decide
    how the other animals will live.  

RE: .35

"We have "country" areas here in Colorado-and packs of dogs run loose, killing
and harrassing livestock and domestic pets.  These are not wild animals.  These
are animals with years of domesticity behind them."

Obviously some 'pets' are surviving out there...  What makes you think that
it's any different in a natural state?  Next thing you know, you'll want
to round up all them too...

for their own good...

Jim.
    

    Yes, they are surviving.  Until they are killed.  My friend's
    dog is one of the "culprits". He's been hit by a car on two
    seperate occasions.
    Well, they say third time's a charm....

                                                               

"Yes, they are surviving.  Until they are killed."

My that tells a lot...  ~\~

Jim.

    My pets are birds i love each of them very much. Living alone for
    several years it is nice to have something greet you when you come
    home after work at midnight. My birds start singing as soon as they
    hear my car pull in the drive and start screaming if i dont
    go in to see them as soon as i get inside. I'm much happier
    having them around they really keep me from getting too lonely.
    
    I had a dog once but after he died I dident want another since
    it could never take the place Chris had held for me.
    
    Pets are worth it.
    
    On another note here in Colorado Springs there are several nursing
    homes that allow pets for the reason of making life happier for
    the residents. I really think that is neat.
    
    -jerry(hooked on pets)
    

    re. .18 "just an animal" - all creatures are God's creation - you
    took the responsibility of that animal's life - if that cat means
    so much to you (filling the void some man left you with) how can
    you be so irresponsible?  Sure you know that the highway is next
    door, but you've got a fence, big deal, cats can climb fences easily,
    you should know that - what'll you do when this one's been killed?
    get another - seems to me you have very little regard for life in
    general.
    
    Being a responsible animal owner means - not letting your animal
    run free (to get killed, kill someone elses animal, eat garbage,
    etc . . .   There is no cruelty in confining an animal to your house
    provided you give them time outside, supervised.
    
    I've adopted 2 yes TWO abused cocker spaniels.  The most recent
    addition is an 8 year old female who's been in a "puppy mill" for
    the last several years the only existance she's know is a crate,
    no freedom.  I keep her inside with the other during the day and
    when we get home we take them outside, we supervise them.  You can't
    just let your pet run free, you owe your neighbors consideration
    too.  
    
    You can "blast" me all you want - but I got to sleep each night 
    KNOWING that I've lived up to my responsibilities as a human
    being!
    joyce

    
    RE .41
    
    Well, if I was a dog (or cat) I sure hope YOU did not own me!
    
    Most dogs need to run free. YOU CANNOT keep up with a free running
    dog! There are a lot of dogs out there that become very sick due
    to the owner not taking care of them the right way. They think that
    keeping the dog inside IS the only way.
    
    Think again. Dogs have always run free until man came and made pets
    out of them. Then you cage them! You call that responsible!
    What about there needs, to run, roam and make there own friends?
    
    Oh ya, that does not count right, it's just a dog.
    
    Baaah
    
    Barry

    If this note continues to be a debating ground for caring for pets,
    rather than a note on how our relationships with pets are important
    and what needs are fulfilled, etc., I will close this note. 
    
    This has been widely debated elsewhere many times on the ENET. I sat 
    thru the flames in FELINE last summer. I don't follow CANINE but
    I'm sure it's had the same debate. I do not wish to to see the same
    arguments here in a conference dedicated to *HUMAN* RELATIONS.
    
    Tamzen, acting as moderator

    In keeping with the moderators request I will not add another
    reply other than this.  I DO NOT cage my dogs, they sleep on my
    waterbed when my hub and I are at work!!!  I DO NOT have to keep
    up with them - they're obedient dogs - all I have to do is wistle!
    As a matter of fact - tonight we're picking up another dog - another
    dog that no one else wants - another dog that will have a good home,
    a safe place to live, plenty of love, attention and the proper medical
    care it deserves.  I DO NOT even have to phycially repremand if
    they're "bad" they know I never hit them - I use a stern tone -
    it works wonders.  I for one don't have to worry if my pet will
    be dead or alive when I get home!

    Let's ALL abide by the moderators request, yet enter one more "last
    word" reply...????
    
    - M

        OK, I tried the light touch with my note on how it just
        might be possible to express love and respect for animals in
        more than one way. Tamzen asked nicely to have an end to
        this bickering. Now I'm telling you firmly (I won't hit you
        with a newspaper or anything). This topic is CLOSED. 
        
        JimB.