Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Well, since you quoted me, Nigel, I may as well respond.
    
    I object to the perversion of a Social Security account number into
    a nationwide ID number, something it was not intended to be used
    for.  I object to having numerous databases filled with incomplete
    and incorrect information on me, out of my control and often
    out of view, all keyed by my SSN for easy access by anyone who pays
    the fee.
    
    I'm not trying to hide anything.  As far as I know (and I check
    regularly), my credit record is spotless.  But I feel I must
    resist the growing tendency for every local supermarket to
    consider itself a controller of my destiny.  When someone wants
    identification, I'll offer them real identification.  When they
    want a key into a credit bureau's database, I'll politely refuse.
    It may not amount to anything in the grand scheme of things, but
    it's my way of objecting to something I don't like, and it makes
    me feel good.
    				Steve

    Think Steve's got something, about "every local supermarket trying to
    oversee your destiny".   It's not so much about the
    number-identification, I think, as about the ease of access to
    personally-valued information.
    
    Anyone care to contribute classes of other personally-valued
    information (salary figure, marital status, no of previous marriages,
    etc, that questionnaires might ask for sometimes)? 
    
    In the UK, Nigel, I'd say there have been similar reactions to
    proposals to have machine-readable passports for international travel,
    also to the "credit-card" format National Insurance card that's being
    issued to new (teenage) workers or unemployed - you don't usually see
    these unless you are unemployed or changing jobs, your employer keeps
    them otherwise.   And that's just with the government reading the cards,
    not the local Safeways staff too. 
    
    Historically, there was an outcry in Britain when National Insurance
    first started (around 1909), on having to maintain employee cards and
    stamp them.    There were press outcries about everyone having to
    do this ("duchesses having to lick stamps") and a Scottish farmer
    entered one of his cows, I think, into the system (the "Turra coo"
    case in Turriff, Aberdeenshire).    The reaction wasn't
    just to the bureaucracy of form-filling - it was also to the
    disclosure of valued information (who worked for you) to people
    you didn't want to know (the political system, in this case). 
    

    
    
    I hate to inform the free world but if you have a social security
    number look it up and check your driver's license number. 
    
    They are the same. So these people have access to loads of info
    whether you want them to or not.
    
    Sunshine
      
    
    Feel like a number!

    Not necessarily.  When you apply for a driver's license you can
    request that a different license number be issued.

	Also, not all states use the social security number as a driver's
	license number.  MA does; NH doesn't.  NH uses a simple combination
	of name and birthdate.  Don't know about other states.

	Of course, since they DO use your name, your license number can 
	magically change if you get married or o/w change your name....  :-)

		-hh

    
    Geez, I didn't know that thanks for correcting me where I was wrong.
    
    At least it's easier when someone asks for my license number I know
    it by heart!
                                                                     
    
    Sunshine
    
    

One of the I-gotchas of the TAX reform is that children 5 and up declared
as dependent must have a SS number. It wont be long before we are all one big 
giant distributed database with who knows who peaking in.

        This whole topic came up elsewhere, perhaps one of the many
        Soapboxes, back when I participated in them, and I recounted an
        annecdote which illustrated why even if you are worried about
        the disclosure of information about you, worrying about a
        specific number to track you isn't that well directed a concern.
        
        You see, when I was about 10 I received quite a bit of raditaion
        treatment for my adnoids (don't ask--It was the early sixties
        and nuclear science was the crowning acheivement of mankind),
        and now some two dozen years later the medical profession was
        beginning to wonder if there hadn't been some long term health
        effects of all that radiation they through around way back when.
        So I got this invitation to participate in a study and to
        have a free thyroid check-up.
        
        I was pleased to see that at least if they were going to
        radiate small children they had the decency to look into the
        effects, even after the fact. I was also a little panicked as
        I've had a history of thyroid troubles. Then it occurred to me
        that in those twenty five years my parents moved from Dedham MA,
        to Norwell MA, and then I went to college in OH, and they moved
        to Merrimack, NH, and then I lived in Brookline MA, a different
        place in Brookline, Cleveland OH, Somerville MA, Medford MA,
        Cambridge MA, Wayland MA, Acton MA, Marlboro MA, Maynard MA,
        Maynard MA, and Maynard MA. Many of these times I moved with
        no forewarding address. How did they know where I was?
        
        Well, my folks only moved twice and were well-established both
        times, they could be traced fairly easily. But they hadn't been
        contacted about the study. Furthermore, my father has the same
        name I do, and he hadn't been contacted so they weren't just
        shot-gunning Jim Burrowses. I've spoken with two other Jim
        Burrowses in Mass and know of at least one more. It isn't a real
        common name, but there are enough of us to confuse things.
        
        They tracked me through my medical records. You see, when you
        see the doctor in the States, he sends your records in to a
        centralized data-base. He, like anybody you fill out a
        significant form for, knows your date and place of birth,
        mother's maiden name and a couple of other bits of tie-breaking
        info that are enough for anyone with access to the database to
        find and identify you with little or no trouble.
        
        Medical records are only one set of centralized data kept in
        this country. You're also in lots of others, whether identified
        by a universal number or not. There are only about 200,000,000
        people in the States and uniquely identifying them with just
        a little biographical information isn't all that hard. Think
        about how you'd do it in Datatrieve. 
        
        Of course, there's a pretty real chance of mistaken identities,
        of data being tagged to the wrong person. So instead of just
        carrying around with you the pertenant info regarding yourself,
        you're probably carrying several bits about someone else. If you
        are a fairly well-to-do and upstanding citizen there's a very
        real probability that that misinformation is worse than the
        truth about you. Who knows, maybe you'd be better off if they
        had a unique number. At least then you'd only be carrying your
        own baggage.
        
        JimB.

Good thing there aren't many Jenna Thibault's in the world...

Bahama Mama

    As far as I can see they might as well issue one at birth, rather
    than wait until you apply.  The first thing they ask when you open
    a savings account (even for a newborn) is what is the SS #.  Try
    to get a working permit for a five year old and see how far you'll
    get (they have laws against that sort of thing).

    It's not the number that I get scared about; it's the medical tests
    that they require and that info getting into a coded file. The info
    takes almost a lifetime to redress if you get "moscoded". The second
    data base that damages you is the credit records; tha's another
    issue.
    
    /cal

Well, getting back to this note after a long absence (work is the curse of
the noting classes):

(re .1)   
|    I object to the perversion of a Social Security account number into
|    a nationwide ID number, something it was not intended to be used
|    for.  

That's an interesting point, Steve, and one that I had not considered. If the
SSN was not intended as an ID number, then what purpose did it have? Was it
just a record ID of your page on the ledger of the Social Security 
Administration? Which then grew into the current "Well, we've got the number,
might as well use it"?

 The announced position of various people (some of whom have communicated in 
MAIL to me) splits my original model into three pieces. The groups of people 
seem to be:

	a. Those who object to the "government" collecting any data about
	   their lives and activities.
	b. Those who object to the proliferation of inaccurate data about their
	   lives and activities, but would be satisfied if accurate data were
	   recorded.
	c. Those who object to the number of people who can access the data 
	   (accurate or otherwise) once it has been collected.

 I can now understand why so many people would object to such activities. I had
originally only perceived option (a) above, and couldn't understand why so many
people seemed to be anti-government/anti-establishment.

 Thanks to all who responded here and in MAIL; I have improved my perception of
the world.

				Nigel

    Yes, Nigel, Social Security numbers are supposed to be internal to the
    Social Security Administration only. As a matter of fact, a good deal
    of care was taken to *prevent* your Social Security number from
    becoming an ID number. It is illegal for the SSA to translate a number
    to a name or vice versa. It is also illegal for them to give out any
    information about you. This is why the instructions that come with
    electric engraving pens advise against engraving your SSN on your
    valuables. Social Security *cannot* let people know who you are, where
    you live, etc. even to allow a police department to return your stolen
    property to you. 
    
    You are also not required to give anyone (except, I think the IRS) your
    number. Other folks (universities, state highway departments, etc.) who
    use ID numbers of the same format are obligated to make up an ID number
    for you, should you request one. 
    
    Now of course, the cynics among us may decide that this doesn't matter,
    things will always happen through the back door, but that's a different
    matter. 

    	Jon, whose mother has done a variety of fascinating things for
	     the SSA and has been duly lectured on this stuff since
             adolescence.

    
    The U.S.Army uses your ssan as your military id number.  In this
    case, you don't have a choice.  Correspondance addressed to a GI
    is supposed to include the number, on the outside of the envelope
    under your name...  If you're looking for a particular GI,
    you can contact the International Red Cross, _with the number_
    and they'll magically find him/her.  'Through channels' I suppose.
    
    So, even if they can't find me through the IRS, with _the number_
    they can get me through the VA or the Bureau of Records.  From your
    home-town, it's usually just a fairly minor paper chase to you.
        
    I'm not worried over-much about lots of data being collected and
    stored about me.  I just worry about the people they hire for $4
    an hour to type it all in...
    
    Jeff
    

    At a shopping mall in Dallas (while at DECUS) there was an art exhibit
    of a lot of excellent sculpture.  One item was a full size male
    manikin, chalk white, flying through the air covered with numbers!
    My first thought was "bizarre"; then it dawned on me that we are
    today characterized by a LOT of numbers: social-security-no;
    driver's license; home telephone number; area code; zip code; PO box;
    street number; automobile license number; bank account numbers;
    VAX user id numbers; office telephone number; each key has a number;
    safe deposit box number; checkbook balance (!); DIGITAL badge number;
    pole numbers; building numbers; other people's telephone numbers;
    ... agggahhh ! Then there are the number of things we own: place
    settings; skis; calculators; ... 
    
    Well, that's not so surprizing; after all, the Bible says "even
    the hairs on your head are numbered!"  (Each? :-) )
    
    	rmm
    

    While the notion maybe be a little uncomfortable, consider that
    these numbers may allow the mapping on one physical person into
    multiple logical persons.  In many cases, the physical person spends
    most of their time getting the paperwork right so that the logical
    person can interact with the institutions around us, i.e., I gotta
    go to the county office to get this lien recorded before the bank
    can close on my second mortgage.  One might be able to be able to
    co-sign one's own credit applications if one had multiple logical
    instantiations.  On the other hand, if this were possible, how could
    we really know what the population of the country is?