Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    The woman I am marrying has two teenagers, one lives with his Dad
    and the daughter will live with us. Although she is probably past
    the formative stage, I would hope that we will have a loving
    relationship more like that between a teenager and an adult as opposed
    to the typical father daughter relationship. I hope she will look
    to me for advice and respect me as her mother's husband, not as
    a pseudo father. I welcome the relationship and hope I am able to
    earn her respect and love.
    
    al

    A few years ago I was dating a woman who had a son (which she had
    custody of).  At first, because I was interested in her, I ignored
    the fact that she had a child and was willing to accept everything
    about her.  Her child and I got along quite well, and she even
    commented about that.  Well, after a few months I started to wonder
    if I felt that I could handle children on a full time basis.  It took
    a couple of weeks, but I eventually decided that, at that time,
    I was not ready to.  Because of this we stopped seeing each other.
    I also decided that it was not a final decision, and that I would be
    willing to reconsider at later times if I should find myself in
    the situation again.
    
    Rich

Step-parenting is a real tightrope... 

	For those with the energy, stamina and patience, I recommend
it highly... 

	I have three step-children by a former marriage, actually
"former step-children" but they still introduce me as their step-mom.
The first year together was difficult... kids carry a lot of baggage
from a divorce and these kids were no different and I had never been 
a parent before.  Also, my then husband's ex-wife was being a real
pistol... she would call to criticize the way we handled the Easter
egg hunt saying it wasn't the way she did it... *tons* of nonsense!

	After we worked out the fundamentals such as homework, picking
up after themselves, bedtimes, etc. we got to be real friends... and 
even now after their father and I have been divorced several years 
the kids and I remain good friends...   

	One thing I would caution is that you and your spouse have 
similar thoughts on parenting... in my case, the father simply said
"you deal with the kids" (I should have suspected then that the marriage
wasn't going to last :^) so I made all the choices... but you
will need to be mutually supportive so a frank discussion of parenting
techniques, traditional vs. permissive, what expectations they have of
your relationship with their children and so forth is a must. The
3-way, 4-way, n-way (his/hers/ours) relationship has to be right for 
everyone involved. 

grins,
Marge

    From the other side of the fence ...
    
    Warning to all potential setpparents/non-genertics parents -- never,
    never, never, say "they're your kids, not mine" in the heat of an
    arguement.  I already had reasons not to accept my mother's second
    husband as a parent (he was an abusive alcoholic), but this was
    the last straw.  I could never accept someone who could make that
    distinction (mine when they are good, yours when they are rotten).
    
    Gloria

    I would absolutely welcome the children of a future wife, as I'd
    expect that she would welcome my own son.  I recognize that it is
    hard at first, perhaps for a long time, but the rewards are
    worth it.
    
    Unfortunately, many men are just not into being a full-fledged parent
    at all, for their own kids or anyone elses, because that's not what
    society has taught them they should expect to be.  Thank goodness
    that more and more men today are discovering the joys of being
    a "Daddy".
    
    I fully agree with Gloria that to try to distinguish between
    the children according to biological parentage is just asking
    for big trouble.  Heck - even original families sometimes have the
    "How come he's YOUR son when he's good, but MY brat when he's bad?"
    syndrome.
    
    However, it takes a LOT of patience, a lot of learning, and a lot
    of self-assessment to successfully pull off a merging of families.
    It rarely works as well in real-life as it did in "The Brady Bunch".
    What it mostly takes is a lot of love.
    
    					Steve

I would certainly welcome any children that a woman whom I am interested in
has...  I liked children, although the first year or so of my son's life I was
quite confused as to whether it was being stuck as a parent, or stuck in a dead
end marriage that I resented/*.  Now I know that I enjoy being a father... 

But I am not so sure that I would, or would want to be a 'father'.  I think
that it is important to make the distinction about who the biological parents
are.

However, It is possible to have a good relationship with the children of
the women I get involved with without being a 'parent', by being:

1) An authority figure.  You do not have to be a parent to be an authority
figure.  There are plenty of other authority figures in life.  This ensures that
you can give the children the benifits of your (supposed) greater adult
wisdom/experience.

2) A friend.  It is important, if you do want to be on a personal footing
with the children to be their friend as well.  It also very helpfull in keeping
communication going.

3) Treat the children like you would adults.  Give them the benifit of the
doubt.  Really, what right do you have to 'parent' the child of the person you
join?  I don't think that you have any; you have to earn that right, and make
the investment of yourself into the person that the child is, before you can
expect your word to be law... 

Jim.

    As one who has had a good experience, I'll put my two cents in also.
    
    I've been living with my second husband for a little more than three
    years and we've combined two families, we feel rather successfully.
    We have between us eight children, 25, 24, 23, 17, 14, 13, 9, and
    8 years old, six living with us.  The 25 year old spends almost
    every weekend with us with his girlfriend.  Since he lives about
    70 miles away from us and makes this frequent effort to visit, we
    must be doing something right.
    
    As to the question of accepting each others children, what other
    choice did we have?  Acceptance of each other, being willing to
    make a hopefully permanent committment to each other and wanting
    happiness for ten individuals made for insistance of this.
    
    As to the question of each others children accepting us, we again
    could not allow anything else.
    
    Some of the factors that have made this possible for us:
    
    	-Mutual respect for each other and OUR CHILDREN.
    	-Creating solid friendships with the children BEFORE making any
    	 attempt at parenting. I do not attempt to parent (the're too
    	 old) his kids unless they ask for it (and sometimes they do).
    	-Trying to understand each other's weaknesses and strengths along
    	 a fairly strong knowledge of child development.  Along with
    	 this trying to remain constantly aware of each childs growth
         in order that we adjust our thinking according to what they
         are capable of.
    	-The ability to talk constantly, about every issue.  In our
         home, no subject is taboo, even if it is somewhat painful or
         embarrassing.  The only restrictions on conversation are that
         it must be undertaken with consideration for the other's feelings.
    	-The ability to listen, and not voice an opinion.  Especially
         important when the children may be having a problem with a
    	 natural parent not living in the house.  No matter how awful
         an ex may seem, the child still loves that person.
    	-Trust of everyone involved that they want the best for each
         other.  Not always possible as noone is selfless, but we try.
    	-Wanting to see everyone reach their fullest potential, including
         the adults.  Noone ever stops growing.
    	-Being able to accept and dish out responsiblity.
    	-Keeping in mind constantly that when the children are grown
         and gone, there will still be us.  With all that goes on in
         our lives this is not always easy.
    	-Similarities between us - same religious views (not terribly
    	 strong), similar upbringings etc.
    
    I could probably go on for pages with this, but I won't.  Everone
    has a different history and is living under different circumstances
    so what is working for us, works for us.  This is not to say that
    we haven't had and don't continue to have our own set of problems.
    I think that the difference may be that we deal with them on the
    spot and all give each other the support needed to overcome.
                                             

    I'm one of those unmarried males without children of my own.  Although
    it hasn't actually been put to the test yet, my gut feeling is that I'd
    happily accept the children of a woman I was interested in. I'd also
    want to have an equal part in the raising of them, as well. 

    Dave

        When I was a senior in High School I used to have this recurring
        dream in which I was dating a girl who was pregnant from a
        previous relationship. The dream involved a fairly large amount
        of hassle with the powers that be and with the added
        complication in our relationship but was on the whole an
        extremeley pleasant one. That's as close as I've ever come to
        the situation, but I love kids, my own or others, and so I don't
        think I'd have any problems with it. 
        
        Of late I've become quite close to a young lady who was a single
        mother back about the time my old dream took place. The
        friendship is a NOTES/MAIL/PHONE/phone net-friendship so far,
        but her son and I get along (via MAIL etc) pretty well, and I
        find that as with the a few other children of friends the warmth
        of the relationship with him if anything enhances the
        friendship.
        
        I think that the children of our loved-ones are in some ways
        parts of them, and that in loving the one we love the other. But
        then again, my only personal contact with this is indirect. I'm
        happily married and have never really been involved with a woman
        with kids. 
        
        JimB.

    Everybody seems to be saying they would accept the child(ren) of
    the person they were interested in.  That sounds like it's after
    the fact.  I thought the question meant would you want to GET in-
    terested in a person with kids.  What if they dropped the bomb on 
    the first date?
   
    For me I doubt I'd date him twice.  The one time a guy asked me to 
    go out with him AND his kids it sounded strange and weird and I de-
    clined.  What the heck would you do?  Go to see the Muppet Babies?  
    Yet I know three guys in particular who have MARRIED women with 
    multiple children!  This amazes me.  Why on EARTH do people so 
    willingly complicate their lives?  Are they afraid this is the last
    shot at love so they grab it?  I'm assuming that you are NOT hope-
    lessly in love when you find out you've got a package deal here. 
    So if you say yes you'd continue seeing someone with kids, please
    tell me why!
    

    I was a bartender for a parents-without-partners 'meeting' every 
    Monday night for almost a year.  I'm not saying I don't sympathize 
    with the single parent - my heart goes out to them!  Because of MY 
    feelings about dating people with kids, I have always felt that 
    single parents must be romantically less desirable to most people.
    Then these three guys go and marry women with broods and frankly I'm 
    stumped!  And these are intelligent, good-looking, stable and prosperous
    men who are not hard up!
                                              
    When I asked two of them seriously about it they both just kind of 
    smirked and changed the subject.  I'd love to know WHY they pursued 
    these women!

First, If the woman dropped the bomb on the first date, yes, I'd still be
interested...  Actually, I imagine that a lot of my decision to be interested in
the woman *in any case* would be based on the way that *she* relates to her
kids...  (The problem with kids these days are their parents!)

WRT the three wise men...  How do you think they got all those kids, Sandy??
:->

Jim. 

    What do you mean, how do I think the "three wise men" got all those 
    kids?  They married the kids' mothers, that's how!  I don't get
    it.

    I am not sure I should do this off line or at this point.  So
    what I will try to do is make it as impersonal as possible.  I
    am beginning to wonder about my own sanity when I read some of 
    these notes about children.  This is the first time I have heard
    Sandy question other people's motives.  But I have heard her loud
    and clear that she does not want children.  I respect you for that
    Sandy and you are doing the right thing to see that you do not have
    children nor do you become involved with a man that does not want
    children.  
    
    Love has to conquer a lot of obstacles.  Children of a previous
    marriage are just one of those obstacles.  Many men and women thank
    goodness do not consider it serious enough to terminate a relationship.
    
    I love my children, my grandchildren and everyone else's children.
    And I am not odd....just different then you, Sandy.  I can comprehend
    your attitude...is it so difficult for you to comprehend the attitude
    of the three men who did not find children an obstacle to their
    falling in love?
    
    Joyce

        "Why would you want to complicate your life this way?"
        
            Because the mother (or father) and the kids were all
            beautifule people with whom it would be a joy to psend
            the rest of you life, maybe? 
        
        As I said earlier, I'm not in the market for a spouse or sexual
        partner or whatever, but I do know that I find pregnant women
        and women who have recently had kids to be more attractive and
        sexy than ones who aren't/haven't. This has been true since I
        was about 18 or so. Just a few weeks back I found that one of
        the women in our department was looking really good, and that I
        always found myself watching if she walked by. Turned out she
        was a few weeks pregnant when this started. 
        
        I have no idea why this is true. I know that lots of other guys
        find pregnant women and recent mothers very un-sexy. I suppose
        it could be that I'm responding to the evidence that they're "in
        working order" as it were (no offense ladies--I'm talking on a
        basically hormonal level I think), or it may be my love of kids
        or the fact that the various physical changes brougt on by
        pregnancy are attractive to me. All I know is that mothers are
        sexy.
        
        For me kids are a big plus in a woman, as is a love of kids. I'm
        also quite attracted to people who like my kids or kids in
        general.
        
        JimB. 

        As an aside: Please let us remember that different though her
        views might be from our own, Sandy is as entitled to her beliefs
        as any of us. That she finds unattractive what I find very
        attractive is perfecly OK. It doesn't make either of us weird or
        bad. Let us try to discuss issues and not each other.
        
        JimB.

    Sandy?  Has an attitude problem?

    THAT made my night...

    As a single formerly married person I hate the term divorced
    when thinking of myself. I am now dating whenever possible and 
    while doing so i have met MANY women with children. It seems
    like about 90% of them have kids and an even half have never been
    married at all. I tend to shy away from the NBMM's I will not offer
    to explain this.
    I suppose I would prefer to meet someone that dident have kids and
    have our own family from ground zero. But i would not hesitate
    to get involved with someone I really was attracted to because of
    kids. I enjoy kids and have my sisters kids over all of the time
    so getting used to them would be no more than meeting them and
    building a relationship. I would need instruction with diapers
    'cuz I always made scarce when that came around but that was because
    there was always someone else just begging to do it and I wasent
    needed 8-) 8^) 8-). 
    Things I DO think matter:
    1. How does the mother treat her child, like I would want her to
    treat mine?( I want one that is loving/caring and treats children
    as a blessing not as a side effect of sex. I also cannot handel/
    stand brats that get their way all of the time and dont behave
    within reason for a child. This is the mother's doing and instead
    of dealing with it(fighting/disagreements/living with it) I prefer
    to not get involved.
    2. Is this all to find a daddy for baby? I have net 2 like this
    and one even said so. ( NOT INTERESTED)
    3. Is the woman someone I can spend the rest of my life with?
     ( I have met a few where I prefered to be with her kids over her
       because we just dident sync up)
    4. The age of the children. I think I would like to see them grow
    up -vs- getting an already grown 16 yr old. This is not a hard and
    fast rule.
    
    Over all I would say Yes I would accept hers as mine and treat them
    as my own. I will gladly get involved with the right woman when
    I meet her. Where ever she is hiding!
    
    -jerry
    
    

    Sandy, I disagree completely with your opinion as to the
    desireability of a prospective partner with children.  I would consider
    a woman MORE attractive if I knew she was a mother because I'm
    looking for someone who wants to have children.
    
    So far, I've had at least two first-dates with women where my
    3-year-old was along.  And I've had two others where her kids
    were present.  These were informal, of course, but I had a good
    time.  Of course we'd have other dates by ourselves.  I consider it
    wrong to hide the fact that one has children, so to me, "dropping
    the bomb" is, instead, the courteous thing to do.
    
    Still, given the choice, I'd prefer to have the first few "dates"
    sans kids.  But I'd not only admit that I had a son, I'd proudly
    display his picture.  
    
    If all you can do is sneer at single parents, and consider them
    undesireable, I hope you find someone compatible with your tastes.
    It certainly won't be me!
    					Steve

    Gee Steve, I wasn't sneering at all.  The fact that I wouldn't want
    to date someone with kids is as out of my conscious control as your 
    wanting them yourself.  I certainly don't say "Ha, ha" and run away 
    feeling superior because I believe no one has kids unless they want
    them!  Sounds like I may have hit a nerve with you.  
    
    I'm not really worried about flames or people attacking me personally.
    Children is a hot issue in our society and my views have gotten
    me plenty of flack starting waaaaayyyy back when which I'm sure you 
    can imagine.  I'm comfortable with the decisions I have made in my
    lifetime and attacks do not incite me to defend so I get interested
    it what the flames might be telling me about the flamer.
    
    And for the record my love life is tres bien!  Thanx for hoping
    I meet a guy just like me but 'meeting a guy' whether like me or not is
    no big major drive.  To live in peace, style and comfort is and
    always has been my primary drive and the opportunity to share that
    with a good man is appreciated but not mandatory.  But lucky me, I
    found one anyway!!

    
    
    I know, in my own case, that it is very important to me that if,
    in the future, I should find someone with whom I feel I would like
    to develop a long-term relationship with (marriage again, doubtful,
    but who knows) it would be most important that he would accept my
    children.  Not necessarily as his own, for they already have a father,
    and not really as a "package" deal, because they won't be living
    with me forever, where this person, hopefully, would.  My children
    would have to be important to this person and he'd have to like
    and RESPECT them.
    
    I think, sometimes, single mothers (this could get me some flames,
    but here goes) may feel the responsibilities of parenting too much
    for them and they go out and try to get someone else to help out
    right away.  I know at least one who "corralled" someone by getting 
    pregnent right after her first divorce (yes, it was really
    deliberate).  Then she was left with 3 kids by 2 fathers
    and divorced again.  Her 4th marriage, she married someone 12 years
    younger than she and he legally adopted all 3 children.  I think
    this reaction may be natural, in a way, especially if the woman
    has been home all her married life with children.  Basically, she's
    had to rely on her husband for most of the necessities.
    
    Anyway, I feel that my two children, though not perfect, are a really
    a treasure.  And if I should find someone else who feels the same
    way about my girls, I'd be willing to share that treasure.  After
    all, HE would be the really lucky one.
    
    
    							jean
    

    
    Yes, I have accepted them as my own children.  I found and fell
    in love with a woman who had two boys by a previous marriage. I
    didn't fall "hopelessly" in love with her, just in love.
    
    When we (her and I) decided that we wanted to spend the rest of
    our lives together, we (the four of us) became a family. Very simple.
    
    I was fortunate in that the kids were young, and their father lived
    on the west coast, and didn't bother to call, write, or visit. I
    think this made it easier on the kids and I, and allowed us the
    opportunity to grow together, without many problems.
    
    Sandy, I can certainly understand your feelings about package deals,
    'cause this was about the last scenario I ever would have pictured
    for myself in my dating daze.
    
    *BUT*, I have never met a more wonderful, warm, compassionate, person
    in my life, and I feel I'm lucky to have won her hand and heart.
    I would have missed the opportunity of a lifetime, if I had been
    put of by the "package deal"
    
    Call me lucky, I guess.
    
    rgds, Ray
    

    This may seem completely obvious, but no one has mentioned age.
    
    "Kids?!?   Aagh!  I'm practically one myself!"
    
    At 24, I am considered an adult, and I am fairly, er, socially
    active.  Kids scare the s*** out of me, and while I am willing to
    _date_ or fool around with someone with kids, I would NOT consider
    letting that turn into anything serious.
    
    re:  women_not_fulfilled_w/o_kids
    
    modify that to _people_ aren't fulfilled w/o kids, and I'll go along
    with it.  That is a function of life-timing, though, and I for one
    am nowhere near ready to cope with such responsibility.  Perhaps
    it's a price I pay for being raised a feminist -- I am terribly
    concerned with my own development as a professional woman, and wonder
    if I'll ever be ready to help shape the life of a child.

    Being a single parent of two boys, I can offer a lot of "experience".
    
    I thought that men would not be interested in a woman with 2 children.
    I was quite amazed when I found out differently.  I have not been
    dating all that much, but have been fortunate enough to find a
    few men out there that not only accepted my children, but also loved
    them.  And it was so true with the children.  They really enjoyed
    having someone other than their mom around.  
    
    The really difficult part has been that I have not been able to
    let relationships go anywhere, and in the long run, I back out of
    them.  Take one guess what happens, "the kids are the ones that
    get hurt".
    
    I believe that there are a lot of children out there that can offer
    so much more to a relationship and if allowed to, it can turn into
    a very nice friendship.
    
    
    
    

    re:.11
    
    What do you think you were at one time?  You act like they have
    the plague or something....
    
    Sounds like you are missing out on an awful lot of "beautiful"
    experiences because of your "outlook/attitude".
    
    That is too bad.
    

    Aw, c'mon, kids don't have the plague.  And sure I was one at one
    time but you say that should be a REASON to have kids?  Charles
    Manson was a bubbly baby once too but I doubt we'd say that's why
    HE should have any progeny!  I'm not comparing myself to Manson, just 
    using an extreme to show the oddity of this particular "reason". 
    We were ALL kids once, so what's that got to do with it?
    
    How come you never were able to let relationships grow or develop
    or whatever you actually said?  Sounds like you meet wonderful men
    but...  But what?  What stops the relationships?
    
    And ok, you asked for it so I'm going to tell you what we "miss"
    because of our "attitudes/outlooks".
    
    We are middle class people and do not have the luxuries of having
    everything we want.  You can't, and I can't.  Check out the cover
    of this month's Life magazine and you will see an extremely weathly
    woman who can have anything she wants including a kid, because she
    can also have a live-in nanny, designer clothes and long vacations with
    her wealthy husband with or without the kid.  But you can't.  And I 
    can't.  We are faced with the choice of having and being all we
    possibly can in life or having children.  This is an irrefutable fact 
    of life which applies to both men and women, but more to women since 
    they are still the primary caretakers.
    
    I said I wasn't going to put this in notes because it's a defininte
    fire-starter but...
    
    I believe the majority of middle-class people never actually deal with 
    "the choice"  but allow children to just "happen" to them.  Now you may
    have faced the choice and said  "Lifestyle hell, I want kids" and
    that's commendable.  But if you HAD faced the choice then you would
    know that because you aren't Christie Brinkley or some other
    millionaire, you have to give up something to get what you want.
    That's what the word choice means.  Taking one thing, leaving the
    other.  Telling me that I am missing out on something because of MY 
    decisions suggests you didn't consciously recognize a choice and make
    one.  Yes, of COURSE I'm giving up something and you are giving up
    something too and isn't it rather silly for us to lock horns over which
    of us made THE "best" or the "right" choice and gave up the "right"
    thing?  Isn't it just a little bit pretentious to assume that not only 
    IS there only one right choice, (which of course there isn't), but
    also that the "right" choice is the one YOU made and everyone who
    makes another one is "wrong" and "missing something"?  Unless of
    course you didn't consciously make the choice, but let life make it
    for you.

    I want kids someday.  However, I'm really glad that some people
    are able to accept that they either don't want, can't handle or
    can't afford kids.  A child who grows up knowing that he/she isn't
    wanted can't have a healthy childhood.  Can't any of you who think
    that *everyone* should have kids think of some parent you've seen
    who should have made the sound decision either *not* to have children,
    or to give any unwanted pregnancy child up to a loving family who
    *can't* have children.  
    
    Like I said, I really hope that someday I'm in the position to have
    children (I hope it's not soon, though).  I also hope that any child
    that is born has parents who really want them as much as I would,
    and that I'm as good a mother as my mom was and still is.  People are 
    different, and not everyone is made out to be a 'mom' or a 'dad'.  
    Give someone credit for making a conscience decision to do what they 
    know is right for them.
    
    I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't want children can't handle
    them, but geez, there are enough battered, abused, neglected, and
    ignored children out there whose parents never should have had them.
    Do you want more?
    

    I like children, have one child, and would like to have another
    someday.  I recognize that there are many who don't like children
    - these people should not have children and should not be made to
    feel that they are "unfulfilled" without kids.
    
    Nevertheless, what I read into Sandy's notes was an opinion that
    having a date announce to her that he had children was akin to
    him saying he had AIDS.  Most of you know that I am not usually
    a flamer in notes, but I guess I did get a bit lit up on that one.
    I apologize for any offense I may have caused.
    
    So, let us understand that in this divorce-happy world we live in
    that there are a large number of single parents out there, most
    of whom would like to start a new relationship.  If kids aren't
    your style, then you should either ask before your first date or
    simply keep looking afterwards.  (However, it WOULD be bad taste
    to have your date's kids show up unexpectedly.)
    
    I'll make an additional point, at the risk of breaking my arm (patting
    myself on the back, y'know)... Even in today's more even society,
    it is still very rare for fathers to have even shared custody of
    their children.  I would think it a point in a man's favor that
    he cared enough for his children and was able to care for them that
    he fought for custody.
    					Steve

    	I am a first time reader/responder in this file. This is a HOT
    issue. I respect Sandy for her decision and her open attitude and
    have told her so offline. Better to know what you want and go for
    it, then let whatever happens....happen. I also respect Steve's
    situation because I have been there and know the responsiblity and
    the rewards. I happen to love kids, I have one 4 year old son and
    want more. To me, the upside far outweighs the down. So Steve, I
    say "RIGHT ON" and to Sandy... go for it.
    
    Bob Lavner

    Having observed many merged families I would like to suggest that
    this is a valid question and one that should be thoroughly thought
    out.  The merging of families is very rarely a remake of "The Brady
    Bunch".  
    
    

    Sandy,
    
    I am not opposing your decision, just the way you perceive/communicate
    it.  Quite STRONG!
    
    I agree, not everyone wants children, nor should they have to. 
    But you seem to think that a *man* interested in a *woman* with
    children, has to have something wrong with him.  
    
    What I tried to imply is that children are very fascinating,
    loving/loveable, and full of surprises.  Can't you even *imagine*
    that these little kids can offer humor, love, etc. to someones life?
    That is exactly what they do, and I believe that you probably can't
    even imagine that to be true.
    
    I will not war this out with you...
    
    Maybe some day you will understand what a "Mommy Dearest" perception
    you seem to have.
    
    
    
    

    Hello...Hello...Hello.
    
    Is anybody here?  Having just entered the conference and reviewed      
    this note's discourse, I can, with complete certainty and authority,
    conclude that there are plenty of folks with like preferences with     
    whom we may enjoy a satisfying relationship.  For that, I am grateful. 
     Now, let us all demonstrate sincere and caring honesty, so that       
    we don't pair at cross purposes.  Remember the prime directive.

    re: .37 JUNIOR::MARTEL
    
    I concede that I communicated my position strongly, and you're not
    the first one to tell me that I assume abnormalcy in people who
    readily date people with kids.  I'm sorry.  (Head hanging, here).
    
    I guess, (well I KNOW, actually), that there are lots of people
    who don't mind finding out that their date has kids, and some even
    welcome it.  I guess I just don't understand the draw.  Sure I've
    met nice kids but none so nice I would revolutionize my entire life
    for them and it would take a revolution, (quit my job OR arrange
    and pay for day care, and provide transportation, rearrange my budget,
    pare down my social life, plan every little detail of my comings
    and goings, re-do my VERY un-childproof home, whew! I'll stop here!).  
    St. Moritz is "nice" too but I wouldn't turn my present life upside
    down for IT either.
    
    Again it's not the kids but the lifestyle I reject.  If I had enough
    money that I could continue on in my peaceful existence and enjoy
    my kids whenever and however I wanted to, I would welcome them and
    would be able to enjoy their positive attributes.  But I don't.
    Enjoyment of children is a luxury with a high price.  Rich folks have 
    it and can pay easily but you and I can't and so we must decide.
    
    To me the good is there but it just doesn't outweigh the bad.
    
    Mommie dearest?  She'll get a kick out of THAT one.  She envies my
    choice and my resultant freedom and wishes reliable birth control had 
    been available for HER!  She wouldn't have had kids either and I
    don't blame her!   What a life they'd have by now!

RE: .39 CICCOLINI

"Enjoyment of children is a luxury with a high price."

That's a smoke screen...  I know some very poor people who enjoy their children
very much.  What you're talking about, is that you can't have *everything*
unless you are rich.  Everyone has to make choices, and we all assign different
values to different things to help us make our choices, and come up with
different answers.

You value your present lifestyle, and don't value having children enough to want
to reverse your choice, which is your right to run your life.  Nothing wrong
with that, but call a club a club. 

Jim.

    I agree that those of us who don't want to have children shouldn't
    have children.  And it doesn't matter what the reasons are. 
    
    But if the original question is about why anyone would willingly take
    on the responsibility of children (their own or someone elses), I'll 
    take a shot at a reply.
    
    Children hug you more often than new furniture does.
    Children are better conversationalists than pets.
    Children make you laugh. 
    Children show you the absurdity of life.
    Children try so hard at everything they do.
    Children love you, even if you're ugly.
    Children love you, even if your boss hates you.
    Children find joy in the smallest of things.
    Children understand most of the things that we have forgotten,....
    like how to have fun.
    Children take all of the time and money and love you give to them
    and make it into something important,...a living, breathing, thinking,
    human being, unique and different and special.
           

re: .-1

You are of course referring to children UNDER the age of about 11!
Above that, you could negate most of your sentences and they would
be equally true (for certain specimens)!

    Why would anyone want teenagers (their own or someone else's)?
    
    Because teenagers are old enough to do their own laundry.
    Because teenagers view life as a great adventure.
    Because teenagers are more honest with you than most adults if you
    give them half a chance and don't come down on them everytime they
    tell the truth.
    Because teenagers don't need babysitters.
    Because teenagers are more fun than most adults.
    Because teenagers can run errands.
    Because teenagers work on the family car.
    Because teenagers are so serious about everything.
    Because teenagers are not serious about anything.
    Because teenagers experience love with more intensity than anyone.
    Because teenagers combine the silliness of childhood and the
    seriousness of adulthood in a charming way.
    Because teenagers will lend you money.
    Because teenagers reflect yourself back at you.
    Because teenagers will soon be adults with all of the mannerisms,
    habits, ideals, and values that you have taught them - not with your
    words but with your life.

re: .44

Okay, Mary, I plead guilty to being an Old Crank!  And a lot
of it is probably misplaced guilt, because I remember what a
miserable wretch I was when I was a teenager.  The one thing
I know is that I wouldn't want to have children that are like
the way I was then!

paul

    
    re: .45
    
    That's something my mother used to wish on me, when I was being
    a particularly charming teenager. " I hope you have kids that are
    just like you!!"
    
    Ray

    My mom laughs now when the girls do something that I don't like...
    
    She says "See I prayed they'd be just like you were", and I see
    God does answer prayers :-)...
    
    I see myself in the kids everyday....
    
    Would I accept someone elses as my own... you bet!!!  If I am dating
    someone that doesn't get along with the kids, he is not dated again....
    God may have only entrusted these precious souls into my care for
    a limited amount of time, however, they are here, and they count
    100% * 3!!!!! The have a VERY big say into what I do and don't do
    when it comes to dating.
    
    Gale