Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Well Mike, I have to say that I agree with you.  I do not feel that
    agreement in any way justifies any kind of discrimination against
    women, especially economic descrimination, (too many of us supporting
    families today).  
    
    When I was younger I honestly believed that there were no differences
    in the way men and women thought and felt and acted/reacted.  
    Now that I am older (ahem) I truthfully believe that men think,
    act/react, and feel differently than we do.  Men seem to come to the 
    same realizations of truth as women but at completely different times 
    in their lives.  Our priorities and values seem to differ and appear
    to be based on a completely different mode of thinking.  Our fears
    and insecurities hit us at completely different stages of life.
    We handle trauma and loss differently.  
                                            
    It almost seems as if there is a kind of complimentary life pattern.
    That is, we seem to balance each other out.  
    
    I don't view this as sexism.  Sexism is far more personal.  Sexism
    hits a woman where she lives (or rather where she banks :-) ).
    Very interesting observation though.  My compliments.
    Mary

I'm not sure what your getting at, but...

You are wrong that every theory has to prove correct in every instance; that
theories cannot be theories about averages or trends.  A theory that says
that females are generally more Y then males, and males are generally more
X then females is a valid theory.  The fact that not *every* female is more
Y then *every male simply shows that there are other factors wich influince
the outcome.

Jim.

    re .4
    
    Lorna, in some ways, I think you missed some of the point of .0.
    The differences you state may/may not be cultural, societal, a result
    of sexism.
    
    The differences I think .0 was looking to discuss are the *physical*
    differences, and how their cause/effect on *behavioral* differences.
    i.e. does a woman's left brain orientation effect her choice of
    verbal/nurturing behavior over spacial/motor skills behavior?  
    
    And, by the way, does anyone think that these *physical* differences
    may be a result of evolution to fit societal norms?
    
    Gloria
    

"particularly one which is *used* to devalue more then 1/2 of the human race?"

Yes, that is correct, the theory itself does not devalue women; it is used *by
people* to devalue women.  Theories don't devalue women, people do. The problem
is not in the theory, the problem is in people.

Jim. 

This note has resulted in fewer replies than i expected.

Wonder why?

Maybe i should have put in in Womennotes?  Seemed like much
flaming there was indirectly caused by this issue.

	Mike

    While in the mood for mindless entertainment last weekend, I saw
    a show called 'Our House' which dealt with this issue somewhat.
    What I found most interesting was how they related it to each age
    group.
    
    Bear with me for a few moments while I put down some background.
    
    The grandfather encouraged his daughter (the show's "mom") and
    grandchildren to not feel any barriers to having/doing anything
    that they wanted.  Yet, he didn't want a woman to join his "men's
    club".  Basically he seemed to be saying "you can do anything, and
    people should be equal, but basically we are all still different".
    
    The granddaughter (child-generation) didn't think about it either
    way.  She didn't worry about discrimination, and the "issue" wasn't
    really an issue.  In her generation, she hadn't really had to deal
    with not being allowed to do one thing or another.
    
    The mother was inbetween.  She felt that each person deserved to
    do/be anything that they wanted, yet realized the difficulties and
    strugles often involved in getting some of these things.  Obviously
    her generation was able to have equality, but only after asserting
    their rights in order to get it.
    
    I agree with .2 in the sense that I think that we are different
    because we were raised differently.  I think that if men and women
    were raised exactly the same, with the same expectations and the
    same environment - each person will eventually branch out to an
    area which interests them most, and can achieve whatever they want.
    
    Yet, I can't really get emotional about it.  I must be closer to
    the generation of the child in that show because I really have had
    very few instances in which I had to fight to break a barrier because
    I am a woman.  The thought of a difference in that sense really
    only enters my mind when I see something such as this note.  I have
    accomplished quite a bit in my life so far, and can think of only
    minor circumstances in which my sex may have been a factor (did
    they promote me to keep up with the "quotas"?).  I've done much
    better then most men *AND* women in some respects, and worse in
    others.
    
    I guess I'm saying that I'm thankful that I really don't see my
    sex as creating many barriers within people of my generation, and
    see it more often in generations before me.

    By the way...  I also replied to an earlier note in which someone
    asked about WOMEN WHO POSTPONE RELATIONSHIPS UNTIL THEY ARE IN THEIR
    30'S OR 40'S.  I always find these interesting...  why do you limit
    the question to women?  I find *BOTH* women and men doing this,
    and it seems to me that in many cases it is for the same reasons.
    
    Peggy

  Mike,
  
  You don't sound like a bigot or a sexist.  You sound as though you want
  to take a controversial stand on what you truly believe without offending
  anyone.
  
  My opinion is that such things as differences between the sexes cannot
  truly be measured (yet?  ever?) in today's society.  You may be right, 
  there may be substantial differences in what is "natural" for each gender.
  But until people start making their individual choices without 'consulting
  society' first, the most any of these studies can hope to measure is
  social trends.  Kept in that context, the studies, and their results
  are not sexist, rather they measure the "sexism" of the society's influence
  on its individuals.  Jim was right, of course, how the studies are done
  and how they are used can be sexist due to the people using them, not
  the studies themselves.  ANYthing can be used by men or women for
  exploitation.  
  
  There was a study done recently about the so-called naturally occurring
  satisfaction of motherhood.  What it basically showed was about a third
  of the mothers interviewed were 'naturally satisfied' about being mothers.
  All of them had to deal with social pressures, though, that said, among
  other things, that motherhood itself was intrinsically satisfying and
  they were wrong not to enjoy motherhood.  Note that this was not a
  reflection on their effectiveness as mothers, but on their satisfaction.
  Some of us make 'natural' parents, some of have to work at it, some
  of us hate it, men or women.
  
  What I'm really saying is that such generalizations cannot even begin
  to be verified until more of us are making our own choices about the
  kind of people we want to be and we are accepted for doing so.
  
  
  
  							Terza