Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re :.0
    
    Larry,
    
    	I think you sense correctly, and that sense/insight is essential
    to your reducing the limitations of your walls.  I don't believe
    you can or want to dissolve your walls completely, which leaves
    you with the question of which walls do you want to dissolve partially.
    To answer this, it seems to me that you need to understand your
    walls well enough to identify and value them.  I think you are on
    the right path in trying to remember where they came from or otherwise
    understand them.  Rest assured that essentially *ANYONE* you would
    want to have a human_relationship with is involved in the same process
    for themselves, and that gives you something in common before you
    even meet them.
    
    bob

    This subject really hit home.  Wasn't it Janice Jopelin who said
    that "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"?.  I
    guess all parents teach that if you take risks you can get hurt.
    I taught that to my own boys.  What most parents don't teach is
    that the prize is worth the risk, and happiness is the prize.  
    
    We sometimes take a risk if the prize is more money or a better
    job because we have been taught to think that will make us happy.  
    And it will too, some anyway.  But the one thing that will bring us the
    most happiness is the one thing that can bring us the most pain,
    ...love.  And I don't care what anyone says, its scary as hell.
    What if you really care for someone and open up to them and when
    they find out what you are really like.....they don't
    like/approve/care and go away rejecting the "real you".
    
    I think its the hardest and most important thing anyone ever learns
    in life and by the way......I'm a long way off myself.
    Maybe if we all keep working on it we'll all get there someday.
    (talk about opening up in a notesfile, yikes)                       
    

    Ref.:  .3
    
    I think you said it all - It is scary to come out from behind the
    WALL, but most times necessary.
    
    	-Dotti

    Larry,
    
    	Can you give some examples of how walls work in your world today?
    In particular, can you give specifics on how a relationship started,
    what triggered a wall, and how the wall impacted the relationship?
    
    Bob

    
    We have a whole series of metaphors for this idea.  The Wall is
    a popular one.  I tend to think of it more as scar tissue than a
    wall.  Every time I hurt myself (you can't get hurt unless you allow
    someone the chance, you know) it gets a little thicker, a little
    less sensitive to feelings both pleasant and painful.
    
    It can begin to make one think one was meant to spend life alone.
    
    Dave W.

    Perhaps your parents were over protective or over did the prohibitions
    but what you are describing is behavior typical of the vast majority
    of all parents. (and those that do not are considered abusive or
    neglegent.) You appear to assume that their only concern was for
    their own image. Could they not have possibly been acting to protect
    you until your judgement matured enough to be resonsible for your
    own actions?
    
    i.e. A parent prevents a baby from the normal consequences" of 
    touching a hot stove, a toddler from the "normal consequences" of
    running into the street etc. 
    
    Would it make any difference to your feelings if you were able to
    accept your parents actions as within the normal spectrum of parenting
    behaviors and to forgive them if they went over board?
    
    As I have gotten older I have found that when ever I have been able
    to go from "I am this way because of something my parents did to
    me" to "I am responsible for the person I am now and am growing
    into" I could deal more effectively with a problem. (and also improve
    my relationship with my parents.) To be perhaps a bit trite - our
    parents are also the victims of their parents mistakes, and their
    parents of theirs and......
                               

    My parents were also very overprotective.  In fact, since I am
    12 and 14 years younger than my older sisters, I had *4* 
    overprotective "parents" to deal with!  They all had/have
    their idiosyncracies, phobias, prejudices etc.  My resolution on
    parenting, as a reaction to my own upbringing, is to try to do
    what I see as their positive parenting and to try to avoid their
    negative parenting.  I want to avoid passing on to my kids
    the phobias about risktaking and strangers that were passed on
    to me.
    
    --Louise

	Having just discovered this note, I admit to using the Pink
    Floyd expression "TEAR DOWN THE WALL" in one of my replies to the
    author of this basenote.  Having since read through some of the
    replies in this note, I have changed my advice to instead of tearing
    the walls down, to try to use them for the warmth and security that
    they provide, and try to build or find the door to them so you can
    leave if you want.

	I also like Bob's suggestion of having some windows as well for
    everyday viewing of reality.  This way you keep in touch with the
    outside world, while providing a warm, safe place for your own mind to
    live.  Who knows, maybe even invite some guests over for dinner?

						-davo

    p.s.  I missed reply .11 by the way.

    This was a truly wonderful discussion.  Thank you to the
    contributors.
    
    
                    Deb
    
    

         -< This world of walls seems so strange and abstract >-
         -< for I am a rock, I am an island.                  >-


         As most everyone else (at lease as far as I  can  tell)
    has  a  wall  or  a shell, I do too.  I try to leave as many
    openings as I can to see the outside world.

         My hardest decision is when to go outside and  how  far
    out  do I go.  Do I open myself up and let someone in?  What
    is it that  motivates  me  to  open  up?   It's  a  constant
    struggle  and  decisions  made  on a day by day/situation by
    situation basis.  I suppose knowing the what's,  when's  and
    why's  help.  We're always willing to open a porthole to say
    hi.

         When someone else is open, the doors become left  ajar.
    If someone else is found to be sincere, the walls fall apart
    and I let them in.  If someone else causes hurt,  the  walls
    get built stronger.  If I cause someone else hurt, do I dare
    venture out again?

         If I'm more open about myself to myself, will I be more
    open to others?  For some reason, I think not though I'm not
    sure why.

         If I'm more open to others and not  hurt,  will  I  not
    then be more open to others?  Maybe, it helps.

         If I meet someone who also has a strong  wall  and  she
    peers  out  of  the window, do I dare say more than hi?  I'm
    more willing to break down my walls than I'm willing to  pry
    open the doors to others.

         There are times when I  wish  I  were  five  years  old
    without any walls.

         So here I open myself up naked to the audience as if  I
    were  on  stage.   Am  I  really that closed up?  At times I
    think maybe, but more often not.  The longer anyone has gone
    without hurt, the easier the walls come down.

         So we look towards the sun always,

         Lee

I don't think that the pain allways comes from other people.  Sometimes the pain
comes from ourselves.  Like when you make a choice and regret it.  Like when you
want someone/something *badly* and can't get it.  Then you develop a tendancy
not to want, not to live...

Jim. 

|Like when you
|want someone/something *badly* and can't get it.  

From personal experience of back in the Spring of this year: 

Sometimes you can be hurt more when you want someone/something badly and
you DO get it!

		Nigel

        I'm sorry, but even conservative old curmudgeon that I can be at
        times, I just don't see the world as "painful and harsh". Yes,
        you have to work for things that are valuable, and yes, people
        are fallible, but on the whole, I think the world and people are
        pretty wonderful.
        
        I really think that you find in the world what you were looking
        for. So much of what we see in life is our interpretation that
        our expectations condition our view of reality an awful lot. I
        won't say that everything that you experience is your own fault,
        but I will say that much of what we experience is either what we
        put into the world or how we look at it. 
        
        If you fear and distrust people, you will find that they are in
        fact dangerous, threatening and dishonest. When that happens you
        may very easily build a wall, and sheltered behind it lose what
        ability to cope with and understand others you had to start
        with. 

        JimB.

	  I would like to take issue with the idea promoted in .0, and 
     reinforced by several of the notes in this topic, that parental 
     control of children is of primary importance in forming personal ego 
     barriers (walls).  Some degree of parental control is absolutely 
     necessary:

     >  Don't play with that stick..you'll poke somebody's eye out.

     Depending upon the manner in which the stick is played with, this may 
     be a real danger.  I've had to take sticks away from my son more than 
     once, when he gets too wild.  I've also let him play with sticks for 
     hours at a time, when he is not too wild.

     >  Don't stick your finger in the squirrel cage...you'll get your 
     >  finger bitten off....and they might have rabies.

     I don't screw around with possibly rabid animals:  I've had rabies.  
     I'm still alive because I had the Pasteur inoculations.  The series 
     of 21 injections is not on my list of life's high points.  I don't 
     remember my grade school teachers, I don't remember becoming a boy 
     scout, but I vividly remember those injections.  Perhaps the husky 
     orderlies who had to hold me down remember them too.

	  However, I do admit that a squirrel actually biting a finger 
     completely *off* is unlikely.  Further, now that there is a 
     swine-derived rabies serum, that does not cause the massive cramping 
     and whole-body allergic reaction of the Pasteur horse-derived rabies 
     serum (originally dog-derived serum), avoidance of rabies is somewhat 
     less important than it was formerly.

	  I don't know whether I would let my son play with a captured 
     squirrel.  Probably so -- the risk of death or permanent damage is, in 
     my opinion, slight.  But maybe not -- a squirrel is a rat with a fuzzy 
     tail.

     >  Don't cross the street unless you're holding my hand.

     D*mn straight.  Actually, the rule with my son has been relaxed to 
     "with me" -- another year or so and he'll be ready to "solo."

     >  OBEY YOUR PARENTS!!!!!  Don't Talk Back!....ad inf....

     Talking back is not okay, but only for socialization reasons -- people 
     who buck "legitimate" authority without cause usually have crummy 
     lives.  As such, talking back is only a minor infraction.  Failure to 
     obey is a major infraction -- I have reasons for imposing the rules 
     I do, but only safety rules are non-negotiable.  I'd really like my 
     son to make it to adulthood.

     >  It is about my parents preventing normal consequences.  If I did 
     >  something bad, they would have to pay the consequences...from their 
     >  point of view.  

     Parents are not gods.  They *cannot* prevent normal consequences.  If 
     you stick your fingers into a live electrical outlet, you *will* 
     receive an electrical shock.  They shock may leave you completely 
     unharmed.  It may only destroy your hand.  It may kill you outright.  
     The parent does not get to say which.

     >  So prevent me from having (suffering) the consequences and prevent 
     >  me from life.

     Now that you are an adult, and responsible for your own well-being, 
     please feel free to stick your fingers into live electrical outlets if 
     you so desire.  Such an action is far more likely to "prevent [you] 
     from life" than anything your parents did.

	  Face it:  this is a dangerous world, a hostile world, a 
     malevolent world.  There are far too many ways to unintentionally get 
     yourself maimed or killed, or get someone else maimed or killed.  A 
     major part of maturing is acquiring the ability to judge risks.  Until 
     a child becomes skilled at judging such risks, it is the parents' duty 
     to control the child's behavior.

	  Some behaviors are what I call "self-correcting:"  their result 
     is sufficiently unpleasant to discourage further pursuit of the 
     behavior.  Pulling cats' tails is one such behavior:  sooner or later, 
     a child notices that pulling a cat's tail results in various scratches 
     and hurts, and the child quits doing it.  The major variations in 
     parenting styles seem to center about these self-correcting behaviors:  
     some parents try to discourage these behaviors (the child goes get 
     hurt, after all), but some don't bother (the behavior is self-correct- 
     ing, after all).  The end result is more or less the same.

	  Some behaviors are self-correcting on a grand scale:  their 
     result is sufficiently fatal to discourage further pursuit of any 
     behavior.  Dashing into a busy street is one such behavior:  sooner or 
     later, the child gets mashed, and that's that.  Parents universally 
     tend to act to make these into normally self-correcting behavior:  
     dashing into a street is uniformly followed by parental punishment, 
     for example.

	   I believe that this is reasonable:  the alternative is to let 
     the child be turned into so much dead meat.

	  Finally, there are behaviors which are so subtly self correcting 
     that explicit action is necessary.  Social behaviors tend to be this 
     way:  would you hire someone who sucked his or her thumb?  Who never, 
     ever, bathed?

	  There's an entire category of risks associated with other people 
     that we haven't even touched yet.  A cat may scratch you, a car may 
     mash you, but only another person can take you into the woods, rape 
     you, disembowel you, and leave your body to rot.

	  Now, it may indeed be that an over protective parent can cause a 
     child to erect excessive ego barriers.  I doubt that any reasonable 
     variation on normal parenting procedures would cause such excessive 
     ego barriers, and I would have a hard time believing that anything 
     short of indictable child abuse could cause the massive psychological 
     damage (inability to have a fulfilling relationship) alleged.

	  I suspect that Dave in .7 had it right:

     >  I tend to think of it more as scar tissue than a wall.  Every time 
     >  I hurt myself (you can't get hurt unless you allow someone the 
     >  chance, you know) it gets a little thicker, a little less sensitive 
     >  to feelings both pleasant and painful.

     There are painful relationships out there in the world.  There are 
     people who cause you pain deliberately, people who cause you pain 
     callously, people who cause you pain accidentally, people who cause 
     you pain unavoidably.  Each pain puts another brick into the wall.
     But I believe that YOU choose the size of the brick.

	  Parents have quite enough to do, ensuring that their children are 
     alive and at least marginally functional at maturity.  The rest is 
     largely up to the child.

				Brian Hetrick