Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    In many jusridictions, there is a clause in the law about a
    "substantially dependent spouse" which makes having your
    spouse (not necessarily wife) stay home and watch the kids
    a high dollar bet that the marriage will not end in divorce.
    It it does, the financial impact of this on alimony decisions
    can make "dead meat" out of any fantasies of chivalry

    Set/flame = off

    I have a few mixed feelings about her questions and possibly why
    she might have posed them the way she did.
    
    First off, the two questions in her first note are totally unrelated
    unless she was brought up in a very old home and she is now herself
    about 85.  Back during my great grandmothers time, it wasn't proper
    for a woman of the family to be out working and her job was to tend to
    the 10 to 15 children (my grandmother was one of 12).  I do remember
    my grandmother lecturing me about responsibilities of a man with
    a family since she, I now understand, was not too thrilled with
    my mother having to work.  But I still don't see that connected
    with chivalry.  Not in any way shape or form.

    Ms. Bonazzoli re-asks the question in a way that really puzzles me.

<   Are there not ANY old_fashioned_style men who feel that a woman
<   should stay home and take care of the kids and house while her 
<   husband is at work??  
<    
<   Do men get some sort of gratitude seeing women work 40 hours
<   a week like they?  

    I'm sure there are a large number of men who would like to see
    their wives stay home as, I'm sure, there are a large number
    of women who would like to see their husbands stay home.
    If my ex-wife was making enough money to support us, she would
    have liked to see me stay home and try to start a business in
    photography or millwork (cabinetry - woodworking).  For some
    people, going to work is a way of staying in touch with other
    people and having something to do.  One other point about a person
    working - If you've never worked and don't have any skills
    then if and when the time comes and that person is alone, how
    do they support themselves?  A person should be (if possible)
    able to pursue a job, hobby, dream, or what ever you call it.
    There are a lot of dairy farmers here in New England that I
    know personally who's wives are almost the sole support of the
    family. (Just one of many examples).  This is maybe a slight
    bit off track since she asks "should" stay home.  Does she want
    to be told what to do?  A woman's place in a family is where
    she feels the most comfortable and feels she can contribute
    her best.  A man's place in a family is where he feels the
    most comfortable and feels he can contribute his best.  A woman's
    place is in the home taking care of the kids?  No more so than
    a man's except for biological reasons.  Watch the flames get
    turned up for that statement.  Should be interesting.

    As for the second question, I'm trying to picture the person
    who asked it and why.  I find it very hard to comprehend.
    The two questions seem so contradictory and point to two
    very different views.

    I will refuse to turn up the flame as I see no point in that
    but would like to understand just what was implied.  Is she
    mad at the single male population? Is she trying to see what
    kind of responses she can invoke? Or as she was typing away
    were her fingers and mind saying two different things (I do
    that quite often, I know you understood what I said but, did
    I say what I meant?)  Perhaps I'm trying to read in between
    the lines.
    
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
              ****** Just a little editorial   *********

    I know there are so many different thoughts about life and
    aspects of life where mine is not unique and any way, shape,
    or form.  I would like to see Ms. Bonazzoli respond not only
    to this note, but to many of the other notes.  In trying to
    understand others, we in turn, tend to understand ourselves
    a little better.  In a few years past, I use to flame quite
    a bit but have rather become a bit laid back in recent
    days.  Not so much bothers me - so I'll let others do the
    flaming.

    As we flame, remember what our feelings about the subject
    are - it's our way of telling ourselves what we feel.
    In that light, I give full permission to everyone to turn
    their flames to full intensity. (Set video bold, underline,
    VT100 annoyance mode, quotated, in parentheses, capital letters)

    Still dreaming about the sun

    Lee

>        Is Chivarly dead??? Where are all the men that want a wife to
>    just stay home and watch the kids???
                            
	This whole concept is strange to me.  I dated a girl like that
    once, almost fell in love too, then I woke up to the real world.

    I am married now (4 months). If I was hired as a principle engineer 
    here maybe my wife and I could think about starting a family, but she 
    WANTS to work.  She feels guilty that she does not make as much money 
    as I do and got a weekend job to try to catch up!  I am lucky I woke
    up when I did otherwise I don't know what I would be doing now.
    
    	Thank God for Lisa!
    
    	If this person wants to find a guy that wants his wive to stay at 
    home and take care of the kids and take care of the house and take
    care of THEM, this shouldn't be too hard. 
    
    	Is that chilvery?   To me its selfishness on the mans part.
    This topic could lead into alot of "rat-holes" about sexism etc
    but it comes down to freedom to choose.
    
    	Good luck!
    
mac

    
    Now, I have a situation where my wife stays home.  I don't find
    the situation classified under "Chivarly".
    
    My wife had a choice.  I had an opinion.  Note opinion, not directive.
    She is now home with the 2 kids.  Yes, her chores include the cleaning
    and washing and dinners.  I help, like I don't sit in the chair
    and expect her to get the beer, clean the house around me, immediately
    do the laundry when the sock draw is empty, etc.  But, some people
    can't believe that my wife and I *agreed* to this arrangement. 
    Usual response makes me into a monster!
    
    Well, I like it this way.  Yea, we're tight in the $$ area, and
    she sometimes wishes she could be out working, but sometimes I miss
    the kids and wish I could be home :-).  It works out.  When the
    kids get older she'll return to the work force and I guess I'll
    be a liberal again.

    I also find some ladies consider me lucky.  Alot of couples need
    to work for the dual incomes.  Life is just too expensive!  I find
    some envy in my situation.
    
    So, is Chivarly dead?  No, just redefined.
    

    If a woman wants to stay home and raise a family while her husband
    is supplying the income for the family, then why not? Freedom of
    choice, right? 
    
    Due to the cost of living these days, I would just assume let me
    wife work (if I had a wife) but by her own choice. If she wanted
    to start a family, that would take serious consideration on both
    her part and my part because household finances would have to be
    considered heavily.
    
    Somehow, my definition of chivalry does not quite follow with the
    option of staying home and raising a family. Isn't chivalry like
    coming to rescue a damsel in distress?
    
    Mike

    I know a particular lady who went back to work after her kids were
    born and her husband stayed home to take care of the kids.  Their
    arrangement was sensible because she made more money than he did,
    so the benefit to the family was maximized.  Unfortunately, he got
    alot of crap from the wife's family for that (she was Chinese, he
    wasn't), but that's a different story.
    
    I believe that childcare for that particular family is totally shared
    between the two parents (and among relatives, sometimes).  He works
    a regular workweek and she stays home during the week to take care
    of the kids.  On the weekend he stays home while she works two double
    shifts at the hospital (making more money than working a regular
    40-hour week).
    
    
    If it works, don't fix it.
    
    B.
    

    Since this topic is for the man's point of view, I'll enter mine
    here.  I'll have more to say later in the note on the woman's
    perspective...
    
    Personally, I would not be comfortable with a spouse who was content
    to be "just a housewife".  As I said in the much earlier note on
    turn-ons, I'm attracted to intelligent and self-assured women, and
    I'd have the nagging feeling that my partner was not living up to
    her full potential.
    
    To put it more succinctly, I'd actually prefer that my wife (whoever
    she may be in the future) did have her own career - it could be
    from the home if that's what she did, but that is irrelevant.  I
    am also of the opinion (as expressed in the related topic in
    PARENTING) that children of "full-time mothers" (let's face it -
    it's usually been the mother), grow up at an emotional and social
    disadvantage as compared to children who have grown up in a varied
    and complex social environment, such as being cared for outside
    the home.  (If you want to argue this last point, do it in PARENTING,
    note 225 I believe.)
    
    In my previous marriage, I certainly encouraged my wife's career
    as best as I could, and she was as successful as I was.  When we
    decided to have a child, the only reason I didn't stay at home with
    our son more was that DEC paid my wife to stay home, but wouldn't
    pay me.  We couldn't afford to give that up.
    
    					Steve

    RE: 88.9
    
    Sometimes I don't know exactly what I think until I hear/see someone
    else say it.  Steve's comments in the previous reply are like that.
    

    re .9


    What do you mean they aren't living up to their full potential!?
    You make it sound as though being a housewife, homemaker or 
    whatever you want to call it is not full time.  It takes a lot
    of time and effort.  It is an insult to say that someone's
    full potential can't be met that way.  I am not saying this is
    for everyone because it is not.  It is a good experience for
    some people and they enjoy it.  The type of person I am 
    interested in is self-assured and independent.  That does not
    preclude the person wanting to be a homemaker.  If that is
    what makes them happy that is what is important.  These
    qualities have nothing to do with the type of job that the
    person wants to hold.
     

   Brian

    Re .11:
       I agree that being a full-time homemaker isn't for everyone,
    and also that it IS for some.  But my point is that I don't
    feel attracted to those who are comfortable with being a full-time
    homemaker.  Let me address the rest of this in the "woman's" note
    in a few minutes.
    					Steve

    re .9 - There are lots of "breadwinning" jobs that are LESS
    interesting than homemaking/raising kids.  Take, for example,
    assembly line work, or loading crates on trucks or any of
    a multitude of others.  We, in this tiny segment of the world,
    are lucky enough to ask of our jobs that they be fulfilling.
    Many folks have not the skills, brains to get those skills,
    opportunities, or choices  to ask their jobs to be fulfilling
    (imagine being a highly intelligent member of the untouchable
    caste...even today there's a lot of prejudice in many lands
    for many reasons - even here in the land of plenty).

    I once saw a listing of all the job descriptions a homemaker/
    mother is asked to fill - boring?
    
    I also know that many friends who have kids have a VERY hard
    time finding someone they trust to look after their kids.  It's
    not just looking after their kids' physical safety, but will that
    person imbue their child with the sorts of values that the
    parents have and want to pass on?  It's very hard to tell,
    sometimes.  And those first 5 years are tremendously important
    as far as giving a child a value system, something they can rely
    on and use to compare other systems to when they're older.
    
    This time period can also be useful for a man/woman who wants to
    (re)train.  3-5 years off of 9-5 work can be enough time to pick up
    some new skills at the local community/regular college.
    
    Now, I'm not knocking parents who decide that, for whatever reason,
    the kids go in daycare and both parents will work.  Hey, that's
    your choice or your necessity, and it's not for me to judge.  It's
    right for you, at this time, for whatever reason.  Likewise, it's
    not for YOU to say that making a different decision is wrong for
    someone else.  I think I've been hearing that in this conference,
    what with all the talk of the homemaker as an "obsolete occupation",
    as a woman who "is not fulfilled".  Granted, the stereotype of the
    "little woman" at home doing all her husband's biddings is going
    out of style, at least in our circles.  And it's not wise, in these
    times of high divorce, for either party in a marriage to have no
    $-earning work-skills.  But it's not "copping out" or "unfulfilling"
    to raise kids and keep a household together fulltime.  Heck, *our*
    house could use some full-time cleaning!
    
    It's humorous that, what with all the two-worker families, maid
    services have been booming.  I wonder if all those maids doing cleaning
    for the Yuppies feel "fulfilled"?

    
    Whats "full potential"?  Since my wife gave up a $$ career to become
    a fulltime mother does this mean shes wasting away?  Nope.  She
    is happy, she feels the rewards, she wants to do it.  So, what about
    potiential?  Are you saying that if she was a work she'd be better
    off?  Naw, potential in this case is bulls**t.  If she chooses then
    the "living up to her potential" argument is mute.  She is happy,
    she feels the reward.
    
    Remember, being a fulltime mom doesn't mean just diper changes.
    She hanldes child psycology, first aid, financial planning, short order
    or gormet cooking, calender planner, among a few things.  I say
    she is better a human relations then most of us.
    
    George whos_fifth_anniversary_is_today

    
    
>        But my point is that I don't
>    feel attracted to those who are comfortable with being a full-time
>    homemaker. 

    Steve,
    
    	Give you the stereotype (you know, your vision) of the typical
    housewife.  What would she look like, act like, etc.
    

    I wish people would understand that I am only giving my opinion
    of how I would react, which was the whole point of the base note.
    I do not intend to malign anyone.  I am certain there are many
    intelligent women who are quite happy being full-time homemakers.
    I have no "mental vision" of what one would look like or act like,
    my experience has been quite varied.  But for me, personally, I'd
    have a problem with such a woman for a spouse.  It's my hangup,
    ok?
    				Steve

    
    re -1. I debated a smily face decided against it.  It is a hangup
    but I was wondering if it was your vision of a spouse who
    stays home or what?  Yep, hangup.
    
    No offense...just pushing your opinion ;-}

    I must be missing something.  Clearly I am missing something.  I
    ALREADY do all the cooking (OK, we go out one night a week before
    folk dancing during the part of the year when our club dances;
    otherwise we get there late sometimes), picking up, volunteer work,
    financial planning, social planning, washing and ironing of clothes,
    lawn and garden work, shopping, and up until three weeks ago
    all the cleaning (hired a housekeeper for two hours a week), as
    well as working 45-50 hours a week as an engineer here.  I don't
    find most of the former things very interesting, but someone has
    to do them.  If that was all I had to do, I would be very unhappy.
    I will admit that my house is not quite as clean as the house I
    grew up in where my homemaker mother vacuumed every day, but it
    is cleaner than most of the houses I have ever been in.  What I
    DON'T do is watch the tube; that is where the time comes from.
    
    Oh, forgot to say that I read upwards of fifty magazines, technical
    and nontechnical, a month, plus a varying number of books. 

    
    I assume .18 is female and she's saying the stay_at_home is not
    interesting and boring.
    

    Boy, change node names and no one recognizes you....
    It's me, Charlotte; HECTOR is my vaxstation, and outgoing cluster
    aliases don't seem to work too well in 4.5 so we have them disabled.
    
    What I was saying is that I have been managing the "superwoman"
    trick for years, and that if there were a bit more support for these
    kind of things (since I have a very high energy level myself) it
    would be a lot easier to decide to bear a child without resigning
    yourself to effective retirement at 33 or going nuts trying to do
    even more of everything yourself (which is what people complain
    about when they lament the "superwoman" idea).  A friend of ours
    is about to bear her second child in December; she and her husband
    are both 40 and have a 2-year-old daughter.  He owns his own company
    and she is a doctor.  They have a nanny.  Their daughter has a great
    home life, and is a nice child (I have fairly often babysat her;
    she is a joy).   But speaking realistically most people can't afford
    to do things this way.  But I certainly don't think the family would
    be better off if Betty gave up her practice.  And, at that, it would
    probably be easier for her to do so and start it up again in a few
    years then it would be for an engineer in a fast-moving field like
    ours.  That's why I wish there were better arrangements for group
    daycare, connected with where we all work, so people of average
    means can manage better.
    
    

    Well, here's my 2 cents worth.  First of all, I have known a very few
    women in my lifetime who truly made a career out of homemaking. Women
    who approached it with the same zeal and quest for perfection that the
    true professional at Digital does.  I have known many, many women who
    stay at home and do little or nothing more than I do around the house
    evenings and weekends when I'm not working for Digital. The former has
    my utmost respect, just as a true professional in any field does.  The
    latter are usually the women you hear complaining constantly about how
    hard their lives are.  Point is, I do believe that homemaking can be a
    fulfilling, respectable, challenging career for some women, and I
    certainly believe that those women can realize their true potential if
    that is their chosen field.  But I also believe that those women are
    few and far between.
    
    							Pat 

AWARNING!!!!! WARNING!!!! WARNING!!!!

MAJOR FLAME IN RESPONSE TO NUMBER 88.14 FOLLOWS THE FORM FEED... IF
YOUR NOT IN THE MOOD, DON'T READ IT!!!



Re: .14
    
    
>    Remember, being a fulltime mom doesn't mean just diper changes.
>    She hanldes child psycology, first aid, financial planning, short order
>    or gormet cooking, calender planner, among a few things.  I say
>    she is better a human relations then most of us.




	Hmmm, lets see if I can put this in proper perspective:

I am a single mother of three lovely daughters, yes, by my own chosing, I 
could have let the bum stay here,and cause triple work for me, but decided 
my daughters needed a better life than what they were getting, but I 
digress....

Lets see what my typical week is like:

Sunday:  Get up at 6 am, get breakfast for all three girls made, wake them 
up, get them through breakfast (normally pancakes or waffles, or eggs), 
then get them all three through the bathroom, and dressed for church.  Now 
an hour drive to church, as our church is over 60 miles away, church from 
9:30 to noon.  Drive home from church, tend to chores, tend to girls needs,
maybe read a technical journal, note, or watch a little TV (I love Star 
Search at 5).  Meanwhile there is dinner to prepare, oh did I forget to 
mention that I am teaching the 12 year old to cook now, so it takes twice as 
much time to teach her properly how to make a meal, no, you point the knife 
away from  you, not towards you, yes, I know it is easier, but what if you 
slip, you would cut yourself...  Ah, thats right... Oh... The 8 year old 
fell off her bike, - well, a band-aid and a kiss should take care of it, 
lets make it orange first okay?... Meanwhile, my 10 year old has 
volunteered me to make 5 dozen cupcakes for her class tomorrow, and she 
wants to help - good... somehow that did not get on my calendar - oh - you 
forgot to tell me?.. Okay, lets get out the pans, you get the flour....

Monday through Friday - Hm... Up at 6 am, I take a shower, then go into the 
kitchen to make breakfast for the girls - no, NOT a cold bowl of cereal, I 
make pancakes, waffles, eggs or oatmeal (mom can you put raisins in the 
oatmeal?)... sure honey!  The girls get up at 6:30, so that I can spend 30 
minutes with them before I go to work... I have to give them some quality 
time, plus make sure they are dressed properly - No Jenny it is 32 
degrees outside, you can not wear your summer jacket to school.... Kiss the 
girls, off to work at 7 am... they leave for school at 8am... Now, Home by 
5 normally... I get home, sit down and help work homework with the girls, 
then we do chores, run the vacuum cleaner, put the breakfast dishes (that were 
rinsed off in the morning) in the dishwasher, wipe down all the counter tops, 
dust the living room, go over the bathrooms, and make all the beds...
so that if at any given time I should have unexpected company my house 
will look clean (and IS clean)... Hmm... time to get baths done, while I 
make dinner... Guess it will be short order tonight, how about a chicken, 
green beans, and mac and cheese... is that okay girls???... Off they go to 
bed at 8 pm thru 9 pm, meanwhile, I am spending a half an hour with each
so they have personal time with me... After they are in bed at 9, I get to 
relax and send out any bills that came in the mail today, and to make sure 
I get the transfer slip made to get money into savings, into the Christmas 
club, etc...  Hmm... Now to read this technical journal the boss slipped 
under my nose this morning and asked for an opinion... log in, right the 
memo to her - yes, it is okay...etc... maybe do a little noting... oh yeah, 
its almost Christmas, I MUST finish the afghan for bob that I am working 
on... Hmmm One of the kids is crying... her fever is 102 degrees, up, get 
her into the tub, splash warm water over her while giving her some 
tylenol..come on damn-it fever... break will ya!


If you have made it this far, I think you just might catch my drift....
Plus, I have not mentioned shopping for food, shopping for clothes,(mom  
its NOT in style, get with it will ya?)... oh, and I'm supposed to throw in 
a meaningful relation into this mass also... and you want me to date too....

But I am merely a 40 hour a week worker.... I'm not something fantastic 
that only stays home and cleans house (take 2 hours max if you do it 
right), then watches Soap Operas all afternoon...

Oh, did I leave out Saturday???  Thats the day I take the kids on a outing, 
take them to the library for a book report that is due, sew on any buttons 
that came off during the week, work on teaching the girls to sew 
(watch mommy, my stitches are getting smaller and straighter - see)... off
to Gymnastics lessons for the girls, schedule girl scout trips... etc

I see according to Mr. George of .14, I'm not fulfilled cuz I don't stay 
home all day... geezzz... I yearn for the rough life I guess... maybe I 
should get married again (sarcastic face here)

Gale

P.s.  I guess I will also give up working on my masters degree and go take a 
human relations course, since only woman who stay at home with kids are good at
that sort of stuff (again a sarcastic face)

    
    
>I see according to Mr. George of .14, I'm not fulfilled cuz I don't stay 
>home all day... geezzz... I yearn for the rough life I guess... maybe I 
>should get married again (sarcastic face here)

    wrong.  the interpetation is you *CAN* be fulfilled if you choose to
    stay home.  I really don't care about your daily schedule.  I am
    sorry that you handle two jobs....home and work, it must be tough
    not to mention exhusting.  I'm a little luckier, we do it differently.
    When I'm home it share, when I'm at work I do my job and she does
    hers.  Thats the arrangement and the choice.  Simple.  We're happy.
    The point of .14 is to point out that there is a different world
    out there.  You see, here everyone is earning income, has the two
    worlds, home and work.  My wife chose to merge the two worlds. 
    The blanket statement that one can't be fulfilled by staying home
    is asinine.  Its all upto your choice and whether it is possible
    ("possible" should cover all have_to_work_types, right?)
    
    Now, next time try to take off the blinders and comprehend the reply
    beyond your own opinion.  This would reduce MAJOR FLAMES to a simmer...
    

    
    I just read all the notes in this topic and a lot of it sounds like
    people just putting down other people's choice of lifestyles.  Everyone
    seems to be seeing the situation from their own personal perspective
    instead of realizing that everyone is different.  (Not everyone,
    really.  Some people made some pretty good points.)
    
    I have worked as a secretary at DEC for 11 years and I am only here
    because it is the only way I can get the money to survive.  But,
    if I didn't have to work there are many ways I could find to fulfill
    myself besides answering telephones, passing out mail, running to
    petty cash, etc. for engineers.  I specially loved the comment about
    how fulfilled the maids who work for the yuppies must be!  The only
    two choices in life are not reading technical magazines or watching
    soap operas!  I don't do either of those two things, nor do I have
    any desire to.  I would much rather spend my day taking care of
    my own home than working as a gopher for a bunch of ungrateful
    managers.
    
    The only problem with being a stay-at-home wife and mother, in my
    viewpoint, is that I would be afraid to live without having any
    income of my *own*.  I need to feel I have control of my own money
    no matter how miniscule that sum may be.  Actually, business and
    homemaking both bore me.  I'd rather just be able to paint, read
    and do crafts, etc., but I've never been able to figure how to turn
    any of those interests into income.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re. .0
    
    If the author is looking the described situation, she might try
    marrying one of DEC men in the Midwest.  Of the specialists I've
    met, in both Software and Field Service, approx. 90% of their wives
    do not work.  The female specialists, if married, have two income
    homes.