Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I have read several things lately that suggest that current
    demographics make younger man-older woman less likely than
    younger woman-older man.
    
    I think the biggest risk in marriages of different ages is that
    the attraction is based on parent/child needs rather than adult
    needs.  When the child part of the marriage matures, the marriage
    often dissolves.
    
    Some other cultures quite successfully mandate marriages of dissimilar
    ages, but these are usually older husband-younger wife.
    
    I don't think years is a very effective measure of age/maturity,
    particularly with respect to social things.  However, I can't think
    of a suitable simple metric, right off the bat.
    
    

    
    reg: -1
      
    good thing there were all those smiley faces in there...
    thus avoiding getting my blood pressure up!
    
    later, gailann
    

    It wouldn't bother me, assuming the age difference wasn't so great
    that we seemed to be of completely different generations.
    					Steve

    	Wouldn't bother me a bit, Dotti.  I guess I should choose a
    better word than bother...rather, it would be worth a go.  I had
    a girlfriend that was seven years older than me once.  But, I have
    to agree with Bob, in that I was much to young to really take it
    seriously...plus she had two children (which were fine, but I wasn't
    quite ready for instant fatherhood).  Being much older and hopefully 
    wiser, this prospect does not in the least scare me or intimidate
    me.  In fact, I would readily accept this as being the norm (or
    at least the desire) for some women (notice I said `some').  So,
    in concludum...I would say that this is a valid topic, and one worth
    discussing, just for curiosity's sake.
    
       Let's see what happens!
    
    					Phil
    

    reg: .1
    
    To imply that older/younger relationships are made up of child/adult
    "NEEDS" is somewhat immature.  There are any number of couples that
    are of the same age chronologically but are on very different levels
    of maturity (emotional) and what they want in a relationship.  AGE
    is not a factor other than some people have seen more and have had
    more opportunities to learn from their experiences.  Opportunity
    is one thing, taking advantage of them is another. 
    
    I feel that any relationship regardless of the couples' ages has
    3 basic needs; they are "HONESTY, OPEN MINDEDNESS AND THE WILLINGNESS
    TO TRY.
    
    My S.O. who happens to be sitting here and is 10+ years younger than I
    am has added a 4th bassic need, GREAT SEX.  Hard work on the other
    3 makes the road to the 4th inevitable. 
    

    I don't see that the age *difference* is as important as what the
    particular ages *are*. A difference of, say, seven years is much
    more significant if the ages are 18 and 25, than if they're 32
    and 39.
    
    Personally, I would tend not to be attracted to an "older" woman,
    simply due to the fact that we'd probably have different world-
    views. But it's not a criterion I consider on a conscious level,
    and I certainly wouldn't "narrow my sights" based on the age of
    the potential SO.
    
    --- jerry

    	Now that I have the chance to look back at my late teens and
    20's I find it hard to imagine what life would have been without
    the so called older woman, the maturity and the basic knowledge
    of life that everybody gets through experiences good or bad was
    passed on to me threw their actions whether it was in love making
    or just enjoying life and all the things life has to offer. There
    is nothing better then meeting a woman that knows what she likes
    and is not afraid to go after it. And to that certain older woman
    that I know is reading this message, keep your chin up and be proud
    of what you are and what you have to offer. And to all you guys
    out there lets give a big cheer and thank God for giving us the
    chance of knowing the older woman...
    
    Gary
    

Once I reached 25, I could not discriminate women's age closer then the ranges:
16-20, 20-25, 25-35, 35-50, 50-80.  So, I don't tend to care much about age.

There have been several "older" women I've been attracted to...  Other factors
usually end up being more important.

Jim. 

    During my early-mid twenties, I noticed I only was interested in men
    6-20 years older than myself, without exception. Looking back on that,
    I can tell that this was because they were the people who were the same
    mental age that I was. I was always "old for my age" whatever that
    means. I never got along very well with people of either sex who were
    my peers. People always assumed I was about 5-10 years older than I
    was, just from my attitudes and interests. 
    
    Having now attained my majority (I turned 30 this year), I have noticed
    this trend has mostly disappeared. In general, most of my friends are
    still older than I am. However I now notice that I have a hard time
    telling how old someone is if I consider them a contemporary. Men I am
    attracted to now may very well be younger than I am, but I don't know
    until I ask. I still *assume* they are at least as old as I am, if not
    older, simply because that has been the pattern until recently. Boy,
    have I been surprised! 

    Who knows? Maybe I'll discover I *like* younger men ;-). I don't
    think I'll ever consider it to be a big deal. I guess I'm just not
    ageist. I really don't think a person's chronological age matters
    at all. It's how old you think you are and act. I would certainly
    NEVER limit myself to only knowing/linking/being_involved_with people
    of a certain age. Think of what I would be missing!
    
    And besides, Sean Connery will be sexy 'til the day he dies! 
    
    Tamzen

    people are people no matter what their age is
    
    it plain don't make no difference
    

    
    I agree with .12.  
    
    And I don't feel that chronological age has anything to do with
    maturity or one's personality.  
    
    And I'm more interested in the personality than the birthdate.
    
    ;^)
    Nancy

    
    Re: .1
    
    > I have read several things lately that suggest that current
    > demographics make younger man-older woman less likely than
    > younger woman-older man.

    What demograghics are those?  I have not studied too much demographics
    but it seems to me that the positive slope of be baby boom from
    say 1945 to 1955 should cause a shortage of older men for women
    in born in those years.  The negative slope of the baby boom
    from 1959 to 1968 or so should cause a shortage of younger women
    for men born in that age range.
    
    If you have some demographics that tend to say the opposite, I
    would like to hear about it.
    
    				Peering down a steep slope;
    
    						MJC O->
    

    
    I basically agree with .12 and .13, when it comes to love and mutual
    attraction, it depends on the individual in question.  It has nothing
    to do with age, any more than it has to do with race or nationality.
     People are people.  If I fell in love with a person I wouldn't
    stop and say, "Wait a minute I'm 12 years older than you.  We better
    forget it."  There are already too many rules in life that we can't
    get around.  Why make more for ourselves?
    
    On the other hand, I do have to nit pick .10.  I'm going to be 37
    next week and I do resent being lumped in with 35-50 yr. olds! 
    Come on!  There's a big difference between me and most 50 yr. olds
    you could come up with!  I look a lot younger, think a lot younger,
    and dress a lot younger than any of them I know!  (Of course, I
    don't know Tina Turner.  I guess she's not quite 50 yet but she's
    getting there and still going strong.)
    
    As for personal experience, I've usually been attracted to men a
    couple of years younger than me.  When I was 21 a 15 yr. old asked
    me out, but I wasn't interested so I didn't go.  Then a 17 yr. old
    asked me out.  I liked him so I went!  (I looked young for my age.)
    
    Personally, at the age of almost 37, I find that I usually get along
    with men between 30-40.  A lot of older men don't *seem* like
    contempararies to me, they seem to think a lot more conservative
    than me even though they aren't that much older.
    
    Lorna
    

RE: -.1

Whoa Lorna!  The numbers were an example of how coarse my ability to discern
women's age is.  I don't discriminate...

As I matter of fact, try to give even children the same amount of acceptance
that I give adults.  Of course I don't ask children out for "dates", but then I
don't "date" with anyone.  I enjoy doing all kinds of things with/for all kinds
of people, and that applies to children as well...

I suppose you don't like being compared to children either, though?? ;-) :-) :-)

Jim.

    .-2                      
    
    Somewhere in one of these notes I read something about "...don't
    believe anything you read..." Well take that to heart when you talk
    about Tina Turner, the woman is past 50, she has a 38 year old son
    now you add at least twelve onto that and what do you come up with?
    I don't knock her, she looks great, I intend to look as good if
    I am careful.  (But I wouldn't want to go through the H*ll she did
    to get to her age.)
    
    Back to subject:
    
    I have dated several men who were younger than myself.   One
    I really enjoyed who was a friend's younger brother.  I watched the
    man go from a small wimpy little boy to a 6'2", 195 lbs hunk (do they 
    still use that word?) and helped him mature in many ways.  He was 13 
    and I was 16 when he first had a crush on me.  As the years pasted we
    became good friends and he feels began to deepen for me.  I still 
    considered him a kid.  He often took offense.  When he turned 16
    I became infatuated with him and we awoke mutual feelings in 
    each other, the age difference wasn't at all the issue.  His 
    mother and sister (after seven years of secretly dating on and off) 
    were the cause of us breaking up.  It was hard on us because we
    we so compatible and I couldn't visit his sister without seeing
    or hearing about him.  Eventually she and I went our separate ways
    she felt I was using her to get to him.  Ironically, this was why he 
    and I were trying to keep it a secret to avoid getting the family 
    involved since I so close to all of them.
    
    I didn't see him for about two years and then he showed up at my
    door after I had graduated from college.  If it wasn't for the 
    relationship I was heavy into at the time, I think we still would
    be lovers.  He is one of the fondest memories of my past.  There
    wasn't a big age difference but enough when you are in your teens
    to be significant to the people around you.   
    
    The other relationship broke up due to immaturity on his side. 
    He was not responsible for himself and therefore he couldn't handle
    all my responsiblities to my career and home.  (I bought a house and
    the challenges that a single woman has to go through to get a mortgage
    is probably worth a topic of it's own.)  He had never lived without
    a parent, outside of college, so he was still very naive about the
    real world.   
    
    Two separate men with two separate outcomes.  I've had worse
    relationships with men older than me.  So how can you let age be
    a problem?  The problem is this:  Can you deal with this person on all
    levels and do they make you happy?  It shouldn't matter what anyone
    else thinks, they aren't important.
                                       
    "There is nothing worse than an old fool...Don't worry about getting
    married, get a good job and a young buck.  Screw him and enjoy him
    at his place.  Then go home to peace and tranquility."  (Quoted from
    my dear departed grandmother.)             
    
    When I get into my winter years, and if I am not happily married,
    I would rather enjoy my last days with someone young and full of 
    life that makes me happy than someone old, cranky and can't get it up.  
                                                      
    Karen
    
    
    
     
    
    
    

    For me anyway, 20 years older is less than 3 years younger - I've tried
    it both ways.  The one that was 3 years younger than I had almost
    *nothing* in common with me - although it took us about 3 months or so
    to figure that out.  The one 20 years older than me had some problems -
    it only lasted about 9 months or so, but was good while it lasted.
    From my experience up to 10 older isn't too bad. 
    
    In general, I'd say that the personality, maturity, beliefs, interests
    of a particular person make more difference than the chronological age.
    If I were to meet someone who interested me who was younger than I am,
    who shared my interests, beliefs, etc., I would not hold his age
    against him.  However, It does need to be kept within reason. I don't
    think I would consider someone who was 90 years old as a romantic
    partner - although perhaps as a friend. 
    
    Kathleen                               

    38 + 12 = 50
    
    so TT's age, given statistics on age of first births, may indeed
    be more than 50.  Granted, it may be just 50, but 12 year old
    mothers are, while possible, rarer than the news media would have
    you believe.  Some women don't become capable of bearing children
    until they're well into their teens.  Some start at 10.  The usual
    age is somewhere around 13.
    
    --L

    
      Age...Younger..older who really cares?
    
    Hey if you're happy it doesn't make a damn difference!
    
    I don't care how old a person is by years..It's how we get along.
    
    I love them all..All .. And look at their minds not their years.
                                                                
    I really think this country/generation is too hung up on age.Look
    
    at thre business the vitamin and health industries are doing. I
    
    admit that I too eat mega vitamins and work out every day, but don't
    
    you think we are carrying this age thing too far!
    
    Look at other countries/customs and then our own advertisements.
    
    Soon it will all change.....Here comes the baby boomers!!!
    
    Sorry but I'm so sick and tired of hearing about age. All around
    
    me people are complaining they can't do anything because they're
    
    getting sooo old! 
    
    I'm 4o and in better shape than ever and do whatever I want..
    
    Yep and better at it!
    
    Enough!
    
    Cal
    
    

                          -< My opinion only, folks. >-
     RE: .18
    
    Maybe I didn't make myself clear.   Let me try again.
    
    Tina Turner has my utter respect.  I meant if she was as young as
    12 when she had him that would make her at least 50.  And from some
    good, usually accurate, friends in the music business out West, he
    is her natural born son.  Understand,  I AM NOT putting her down,
    I am just saying she is older than is proclaimed in magazines.
    
    And I wonder if she has a problem with dating younger men?  I haven't
    kept up with the lastest on the stars.  I would assume after Ike,
    any man would look unpleasant.  
    
    Karen
    
    P.S. Sorry if some of you were excited by this note being hidden,
    I needed some help before I showed it to the world.  
    
    Steve, sorry for any problems this may have caused.  
    
                                                      

    re: .32 :  Lay off Dave!  The moderators are doing what they
               think is best!  If it isn't relevant to the topic,
     	       it doesn't belong in the file!  I don't know about
    	       you, but I don't have the time or the inclination
    	       to moderate a conference, and appreciate what these
    	       people are doing for me.
    
    And now for something completely different - something relevant
    to the topic!
    
    I think (from personal experience, which I will get to in a 
    moment) that the most difficult time for an older woman/younger
    man combination is during the late teens/early twenties.  While
    it's considered somewhat of an "achievement" for a man to be
    dating an older woman during this time, but the woman has to
    take a lot of ribbing.  I say this from experience, because
    when I was twenty, I dated a seventeen year old for a while.
    He was a real nice guy, we had a lot in common, and we had
    *so* much fun while it lasted.  Distance and differing goals
    broke us up, but we still keep in touch.  He taught me a lot
    about myself, and occasionally made *me* feel like a
    "youngster", as I was very naive.  I took a lot of ribbing from
    my friends about his age ("Boy *you* must be hard up."  "Couldn't
    get anyone else?"), of course maybe I just had lousy friends!
    While he rose in status among his friends.  Maybe it's just the
    way things are when you're that age - still so insecure.  Anyway,
    the point of all this rambling, is that to a certain extent physical
    age means nothing. I've met older men who still weren't as wise
    in many ways as my friend.  Never knock a romance on age alone,
    unless you have a hard time dealing with it.  You might just be
    missing the best time of your life!!
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    As many people have already said age should not matter. I have dated
    several older women and had a ball with them all. Most of the older
    women I have dated freaked out when they found out how old I was.
    They couldn't believe I could be so young. Some have even asked
    to see my ID. This really offended me because why should it be that
    important to somebody. I think that the only thing that matters
    is how you get along with each other and the happiness you bring
    into the relationship.
    
    I have also had the pleasure of dating younger women. My last long
    term relationship was with someone who was a couple of years my
    younger. The problem was she was not mature enough to handle the
    relationship the way it was heading. I think this is why I like
    older women because they know what they want and will tell you right
    off the bat. 
    
    To make my point there should not be any question of age brought
    into a relationship the only thing that matters is the happiness
    you find from the person you are with.
    
                                           Todd

    As an "older woman" who dates "younger men", I say YEA!!! younger
    men. As an "older woman" who dates "older men", I say YEA!!! older
    men. As a single woman who dates men her own age I also say YEA
    men!!
    It is not the age of the man, it is the man inside the man who 
    counts for everything. Is he considerate, fun, intelligent and
    up on life like me. I don't care about the package or the age of
    the wrappings, its the gift inside that counts. I count my blessings
    each time I open a new gift of frienship or love and find a real
    gem inside. Don't let age stop you. Take it from an "older woman".
    :-)

    
    
    
    RE: .35
    
    Todd, you sound very mature to me and I wholeheartedly agree.
    
    RE: .36
    
    Right on!!!
    
    
    Hugs,
    Fran  (an ***OLDER WOMAN***)

    As an "older" woman, I find myself more often attracted to 
    younger men.  Why?  Men my age or older, feel that they must
    "instruct" on proper behavior.  I find 34+ have the feeling
    that they cannot just be friends, have fun, without trying to
    do some major changes in the woman.  I have heard crabbing about
    how the woman (any age) is always trying to make CHANGES in the
    mans lifestyle, hmmm, me thinks its the other way around.  
    
    I've heard some men say, the woman they want is "exact height, weight,
    color eyes,hair, dresses like, no-smoking and take the
    man unconditionally" but their flexible!!! what ever happened to 
    liking a person for themselves?  Who says a chubby person wouldn't 
    be compatible.
    
    Being a single parent, I have been told by men that they don't
    want to be a parent.  Excuse me, but who asked???  If the relationship
    is going strong, then that would be a consideration, but my goodness
    after a couple of dates, it seems a little strange to be planning
    that far into the future.  Older men want things their way
    or not at all.  So what if she's overweight.  So what if she smokes.
    doesn't get into the wild-man woods stuff, or massive quanities of
    sweating, 
    I could go on with the so whats but I won't. 
    
    My point?  Flame off......  I think the younger men are more willing
    to change along with the woman.  Note: I did say along "with".
    Older men seem to want the woman to do all the changing.  
    
     

    
    RE: .40 (NO pun intended)
    
    Vivian, I understand where you are coming from, as I've heard the
    same comments from both women and men friends I have in the "34+"
    age bracket.  Hopefully you haven't given up totally on those of
    us males over that age (which I am and have no problem with that)
    in that there are those of us who are willing to work (together with
    someone we find a longer term relationship possible with) to make
    the relationship as compatible as possible by changing whatever
    it is possible to change within reason.  No matter what a person's
    biological age, it takes 2 to tango and 2 to make a relationship
    good and meaningful.
    
    By the fact that you were "Flaming", it would seem you have been
    "burnt" by a thoughtless and/or inconsiderate male in our age bracket.
    That's too bad.  Try not to give up on all of us.....
    
    					Joe

    I may be totally of the mark but I think pinning anything 
    on age or sex or build or whatever is a cop out.  There 
    are people for whatever reason that want to change people
    for the "better".  Age is not the reason it has more to 
    do with personality of that person.  

    Some people have been burnt by a  <pick an age group or
    whatever group> and thus are now turned off.  I say you are
    letting those people change you for the worse.  As much
    as you should not decide about someone because of the color
    of their skins you should not decide because of their age.

    Do not judge a book by its cover or age.

    Brian

    One other experience I recently had, I was dating this 
    gentleman for about 4 months.  Things were very nice,
    we had alot of things in common, and things were just
    plain enjoyable for the both of us.  The reason we don't
    date anymore?  A month ago, I got braces.  He said he
    was embarassed to be seen with a 34 year old woman with
    braces.  Made me realize that his idea of a relationship
    was all superficial.  He was over 40.  
    Live and learn!
    
    Actually I am not as angry anymore, you experience a 
    cruddy situation, think about it, release the anger,
    then look at the new day dawning.  But it sure felt
    great to release the anger in a non-violent manner.
    It's nice to know there's a place to do that without
    totally offending anyone.
    Thanks 
    Vivian

    
    I married an "older" lady.  She's four years older.  Tends to more
    of a joking point then anything else.  Seems that alot of couples
    I know are in the 4-6 year difference with the female being older.
    The consense was the age really didn't make a difference since most
    of us met our sposes on mutual working and/or social grounds.  Though,
    there are some interesting points, we look back at our younger years
    and realize the differences in age was well defined, like:
    
    	My wife had graduated HS and married her first husband and I
    was still an exploring_teenager!!
    
    	and musical taste tend to differ.  But, overall theres never
    been the age_factor.  By the way, the median age of these marriages
    are/were 27.5.
    
    set ramble off
    
    GOG
    

        Realized that the definition of older can mean either
    "older than I," or "older than N-years."  I believe I am
    concern with a little of both.  As I get older then my
    attraction get a little older.  I view a woman's maturity
    like a bottle of wine: either it mellows and is refined
    in the process or it just grows old and spoils.  
    
        As a man growing older, I find that I am constantly
    trying to avoid being conservative and thus fall in the
    criticism trap.  I try to learn the patience, confidence,
    and sensibility I notice in older women.  
    
        Generalizing any group of people isn't smart.  Just
    when you start to generalize, some one comes along
    and shatters your conception.  But there is a mystique
    involved with it that doesn't involve specific reasons,
    it just a feeling or an attraction.  I guess this cross-
    references the "what turns you on" note.
    
    GRG
    

	Age doesn't matter. I know plenty of women who are 5 year opposite
	of me on either end that are either mature or immature. What really
	matters is the person inside. A question. Does ANYONE really act
	their age? Certainly not I.. I'm at the point in my life that I'm
	in many repects, re-living my childhood. (due to family problems
	at age 16-21 I never got to be a teenager) Yet on the otherhand I'm
	quite comfortable with people 10 years my senior. (I go out every
	Thursday nite with a couple of guys older than me)  Bottom line is,
	I never "act my age". Sometimes I'm 18 and going for broke. Other
	times I'm 30+ish and pretty conservative and "learnerd". I'm hardly
	ever 25. I'm just me.

							mike

    
    	There is an interesting article on this subject in the January
    issue of New Woman magazine.  It states several reasons why women
    seem to be turning to younger men:
    	1.  Women no longer need a big, strong man to take care of them.
    	2.  Women do not require the title of "Mrs." to define themselves
    socially or even parentally. 
    	3.  Thanks to the fitness craze, cosmetics and plastic surgeons
    you can seldom tell how old most women are, and many women look
    better the older they get. 
    	4.  Women live longer than men, so when they hook up with younger
    men, their chances of living out their declining years in widow's
    weeds are drastically reduced. 
    	5.  Older women aremore likely to have gained sexual confidence
    and enlightenment by having come of age during the sexual revolution.
    Simply put, older women are more likely to be dynamite in bed. 
    	6.  Women are beginning to realize that marrying an older,
    wealthier man is hardly a guarantee of lifelong economic stability.
    
    	I agree with a lot written previously in the replies to this
    note and don't judge a person solely by age, but have (like Vivian)
    had rotten experiences with men older than myself and seem to have
    better relationships with those younger than myself.  Younger men
    seem to have more enthusiasm and lust for life than men 5 to 10
    years older than me.  (By younger, I'm speaking of those 10 to 15
    years younger, not just 1 or 2.)  
    
    	And re.: .43, Brian, I agree -- age should not be the deciding
    factor when choosing someone to have a relationship with.  I DO
    find it interesting tho, that society has changed it's perspective
    and seems to be more accepting of Younger Man/Older Woman relationships
    than it was some 30 years ago. 
    
    	I also think that it takes a very special man to appreciate
    an older woman.  Not every young man is going to be able to "handle"
    such a relationship.  It all goes back to all that's been said before,
    it's the person that matters!  

                        -< YOUNGER MEN AND WOMEN????? >-
    I DON'T SEE THAT THE AGE DIFFERENCE IS AS IMPORTENT AS WHAT THE
    PARTICULER AGES ARE.I HAD A GIRLFRIEND.SHE WAS NINE YEARS OLDER
    THAN ME.EVERYBODY DON'T LIKE TO GO OUT WITH OLDER WOMEN BUT I USE
    TO GO OUT WITH THAT GIRL WE HAVE EVERY THING IN COMMON BUT I JUST
    ONE PROBLEM SHE HAD TWO CHILDREN WHICH WAS FINE BUT I WASN'T READY
    FOR TAKE FATER POSITIOM.
                PATEL
    

    Hi Patel,
    
    Thanks for the vote of encouragement... but would you please
    use upper and lower case...in notes all caps is considered
    shouting :-) <---smile. But maybe that was how your former
    woman friend affected you - i.e. you wanted to shout?
    
    Bonnie
    
    p.s. small nit, in general, girls are female people under
    the age of 18.

          
    re:  -1
    
    >>>    p.s. small nit, in general, girls are female people under
    the age of 18.

    Oh no... here we go....
    
    
    And what if an older man walked up to your table and said, "Hello
    girls."
    
    Would you have a "nit" with that too?
    
    Girls/Women/Ladies/Females/Boys/Men/Guys/Dudes/etc - it's all
    subjective.
    
    Dwight

    in re -1
    
    Well, I might smile brightly and look puzzled and give my best
    smile and look around in a bewildered fashion and crease my
    brows and say something like, 'I think all the children are at
    home'...
    
    :-)

         Or...
         
         If he was truly good looking...we might pull out
         a chair and ask the old boy to sit down...[grin]
         
         ...sort of depends on the "intention" of the remark,
         yes? Some men can call me girl and get away with
         it...some boys cannot.
         
         "Girl" is *never* appropriate in a business or public
         social setting...[*men* I have noticed understand
         that...]...but "come here girl..." in bed?..[chuckle]
         
         I am not sure I agree with "subjective" but I would
         say "environmental"...
         
         Melinda

   Isn't this topic on Older Women with Younger Men....
    
    This "I don't wanna be called a girl"  is getting kinda silly and
    girlish....what's in a name....
    
    Bill

         RE: "Girl"...
         
         
         If the topic is Older Women and Younger men...then
         any related topic that addresses questions and issues
         surrounding such relationships would be admissable
         I would think....
         
         Since conversation [at least from personal experience
         only...but being an "Older" woman I could be out
         of date...] is an integral part of any serious
         relationship. The discussion of terminology seems
         appropriate to me...at least as a side trip.
         
         The *issue* of its appropriateness, however, is much
         further afield....don't you agree?
         
         Melinda

    Re: .56
    
    >what's in a name....
    
    Connotations/implications that feed attitudes/prejudices.  What
    image does the name Irwin bring to mind?  Ethel?  Stanley?
    
    The same principles apply to a number of words.  Anyone who takes
    communication seriously needs to be aware of the connotations of
    words; that is the essence of diction.

    re:.58
    
    >>Connotations/implications that feed attitudes/prejudices. 
    
    Only if you let it get to ya....
    
    I call the females that I date girls.   I say "I met this nice girl
    the other day."  or "My Girl friend and I went to......"  I don't
    mean anything demeaning by it.  If they get bent out of shape I
    think they have problems with their own insecurities of self worth.
    
    Bill

    
    
    There are women who have such strong feelings of self worth that
    they find demeaning labels objectionable.
    
    Deborah
    
    

         
         [ahem]

         If the *girls* involved do not mind...
         What can a *woman* do?
         
         [grin]

    in re .61
    
    Well the *women* could limit their attentions to the *men* that
    don't prefer *girls*
    
    :-)

    
    re .61
    
    	A most relevant point!
    
    My own observation... men who refer to a female as "girl"...
    			  never have the pleasure of knowing her
    			  as a "woman."
    
    Gene~
    
    
    			  

    In my humble opinion, unless the age difference is extreme, such
    as 70 + lady with a < 18 boy, the governing feeling should be Love.
    
    	If the parties really Love each other, and are both capable
    of understanding the ramifications of their age differences, they
    should be free to follow their hearts.
    
    	Guy B.
    

    Interesting....ever seen the movie "Harold and Maude"?
    
    -Jody
    

    Why take the whole idea of being called a girl as an insult?  I
    like to be called a boy when it isn't degrading.  I mean if someone
    says "Go do that BOY!" I'd get ticked off.  If someone said "He's
    such a nice Boy."  I would think it's great....even if the person
    was younger then me.  
    
    I have enough confidence to know that I'm a man without having to
    worry a silly name.  I bet if said in certain ways not being called
    a girl could be insulting.  If I came into a room with a bunch of
    female humans in it and said "Hi girls!" yet I singled out one and
    said "Hi girls and woman."  Wouldn't it be insulting by me saying
    the person I singled out isn't youthful and is actually a woman.
    The term girl is an endearing term.  I would like to think that
    everyone remains a girl at heart.  
    
    As for not knowing a "woman".  If I don't I'm glad...I still love
    to hold on to my youth and would only be atracted to girls mature
    enough to handle being called a girl and actually enjoy and love
    their youthfulness no matter what her age.  My grandmom is still
    a girl at heart!!!!
    
    :-)
    Bill
 

    Re: .66
    
    >I have enough confidence to know that I'm a man
    
    Many women have enough confidence to know they're women.  They'd
    appreciate it if other people would recognize that fact as well.
    Why are you so sure that the sense of insult comes from a lack of
    self-confidence or self-worth?  I think that, instead, it comes
    from pride in oneself -- I know my worth, I want you to know it,
    too.
    
    >Wouldn't it be insulting by me saying the person I singled out
    >isn't youthful and is actually a woman.
    
    God forbid I should be thought not youthful!  Ah, spare me from
    that cruel fate!
    
    What's so insulting about not being young?
    
    >actually enjoy and love their youthfulness no matter what her age.
    
    What's to say you can't enjoy your youthfulness and still want to
    be known as a woman?  What is it about youthfulness that you find
    so laudatory?

    re:  .63  Gene
    
    >>>    My own observation... men who refer to a female as "girl"...
    			  never have the pleasure of knowing her
    			  as a "woman."

    
    I've proved this theory false on more than one occasion.  :^)
    
    Dwight
    

    I think it's rather amusing to hear the responces to this.  It's
    only another way to refer to female humans.  I'm sorry but when
    I examine the incident all I see is the lack of self worth.  If
    you truely were a "Woman" wouldn't you be above getting miffed at
    being called a "girl".  It reminds me of little kids crying to mom
    yelling...."Mom!  She called me a baby make her take it back..."
    Give it a rest....Not everyone in the world is trying to shoot you
    down.......
    
    Bill
    

    Re: .69
    
    I notice you didn't answer any of my questions.  I meant them quite
    seriously, because I don't understand why you think the way you
    do.  Are you interested in explaining?
    
    >It's only another way to refer to female humans.
    
    Perhaps that is the connotation that the word "girl" conveys to
    you.  As has been amply demonstrated, it is not the connotation
    conveyed to many people (women and men).  Therefore, if you use
    the word "girl," they will not receive the same concept that you
    are trying to send.  If you want to imply respect for a woman in
    this file, you'll have better success if you use the word "woman."
    Since you have been told that the word "girl" connotes a lack of
    respect, your use of it will imply a deliberate lack of respect.
    The burden of communication is, and always has been, on the sender.
    
    >If you truely were a "Woman" wouldn't you be above getting miffed
    >at being called a "girl".
    
    Ah.  This sounds like only paragons of self-actualization can be
    women.  What do we call all the mature but not-quite perfect people
    who happen to be female?  What does it take to "earn" the "title"
    of woman?
    
    It's a dangerous line of argument, because it can be turned around.
    It seems that if you were truly a man, you wouldn't have any qualms
    about respecting a female's wish to be called a woman.
    
    >It reminds me of little kids crying to mom yelling...."Mom!  She
    >called me a baby make her take it back..."
    
    I'm curious -- who do you see as the "mom" figure in this case?
    It's also interesting that you've made this analogy.  What you've
    represented is a childish response -- to childish behavior.  Isn't
    name-calling childish?  I don't see the response of women being
    childish.  Instead of appealing to an authority figure to "make
    them stop," the women have explained their position and asked for
    a change in behavior.  What's childish about that?
    
    >Not everyone in the world is trying to shoot you down.......
    
    Since I haven't seen anyone make this claim, why do you bring it
    up?  Certainly not everyone is trying to shoot women down.  But
    are you going to claim that no one tries to shoot them down?  If
    so, I'd like to see you present your case.
                                                                       

    I think such pickyness over semantics would apply more to children
    I.E. boys and girls.... SO maybe the woman/man that makes a big issue out
    of being called a girl/boy actually deserves the title. 
    FWIW- My 58 year old mother calls her best friend 'girl' and she
    happens to be several years her senior.
                                                               
    I feel the real issue is an inability to gracefuly accept that not
    all persons use 'words' the same way. Why don't we focus on the
    intent -vs- method(words).
    
    Call me boy for all I care I know what I am and have little need
    to correct someone else,-j
                              

         OK, I give up....no more jokes....I will be didactic
         for a moment.
         
         [start_woof!]
         
         Given a society where equality between the races
         and sexes actually exists; and given a workplace
         where I can *expect* to be demoted or promoted solely
         on the basis of my ability to accomplish what I have
         been asked to accomplish....
         
         Given those things? Call me "girl" anytime you want,
         anywhere you want.
         
         Given the *reality* under which I socialize and work
         everyday....
         
         Given that imperfect allbeit striving world? Call
         me "girl" in the middle of a board meeting where
         I am presenting a budget that represents my ability
         to make sure the people who work for me get their
         raises and fair treatment....call me "girl" just
         *once* onder those circumstances and I will climb
         up your leg and chew your b**** off.
         
         The point is *not* whether *I* know if I am a girl
         or a woman....the point *is* whether the *person*
         who I am dealing with on a professional level respects
         my ability and professionalism; and how that *person*
         chooses to *communicate* that trust and respect to
         *me* and to my [probably] male peers.
         
         Any gentleman in a position of authority who is not
         sensitive enough to realise the double standard that
         most women have had to deal with on the way "up"
         and address them in an according manner is not fit
         to hold the position he sits in. It is only "unfit"
         management that does not do its best to respond in
         a supportive way to those it seeks to manage....you
         get more from your people if you don't choose to
         insult them or undermine their effectiveness.
         
         Unthought-out use of the term "girl" in today's
         workplace indicates nothing more than sheer lack
         of understanding of what has transpired during the
         fight for women's equality in the past 50 years,
         or, plain old stupidity. Take your pick boys!
         
         [end_woof]   
         
         Melinda
         

	 I tend to agree with Bill....I could really care less whether
	 someone calls me a girl or a woman.  And I tend to be very
	 careless when I call a male man/guy/boy.  Does a word/label
	 really matter that much especially if its not meant to be
	 condescending?   Labels to me are worthless, as long as I am
	 treated with respect just as any other human should expect to
	 be treated.

	 Just don't call me chick or b*tch....  THOSE are
	 condescending.          

	 kath_the_female_humanoid

    re: .69
    
    � It's only another way to refer to female humans.  
    
    Historically, it's also been a method to devalue women; would
    you also say that the terms "boy" or "nigger" were just another
    way to refer to black men?
    
    � I'm sorry but when I examine the incident all I see is the lack of 
    � self worth.  If you truely were a "Woman" wouldn't you be above 
    � getting miffed at being called a "girl".  
    
    Since you are not truely a woman, Bill, I think you're on pretty
    thin ice when you imply what women should feel in any given instance.
    It seems to me that Melinda (.72) states things pretty well and,
    having had the good fortune to get to know her a bit, I can assure 
    you that she lacks for *nothing* in the self-esteem department.
    
    From the Dept. of Redundancy� Dept:
    
    I believe that one of the difficulties we face here is the medium
    of NOTES.  By way of example: I suggested a woman friend that the 
    context of delivery can make *all* the difference.  To prove my
    point, over lunch I referred to women variously as "women", "ladies",
    "girls", and once even "silly bitch".  She had no problem with any
    of the words (I even had to go back once in conversation and point
    out that I'd just used "girls").  The friend, btw, is one of the
    co-moderators of WOMANNOTES and a person of considerable strength,
    intelligence, and skill.
    
    However, I almost *never* use the three latter terms in NOTES 
    because, even though I take some care in choosing my words and
    setting up a context of humor, without the aid of non-verbal
    cues (grimaces, raised eyebrows, extra-thick regional accents)
    I cannot be certain that a term like "girl" or "boy" will be 
    understood as it might otherwise in a 1-on-1 situation.  And
    though I believe this company has made strides in combating 
    sexist attitudes, I think it's fair to say that a good deal
    of sexism still remains.  Because of this, I think it's entirely
    reasonable for women to look askance at the use of the word "girl"
    within the workplace and particularly in a limited environment
    such as NOTES.  
    
    Perhaps it would help us to remember that it's always been "good"
    to be "one of the boys" or "a good ol' boy"; there's a very different
    connotation that goes with "one of the girls" (e.g. ". . .not bad,
    for a girl").  Since we (men) cannot walk a mile in their moccasins,
    perhaps we'd do well to listen to what women say when they tell
    us how the world appears to them.
    
    Steve

    
    
    	B O R I N G !

    	I may be missing something - but what happened to the original
    topic ? It is really something to behold, how one word or term taken
    in a different context can stimulate so much diversion from the
    topic at hand.
    
    	Calling adults "Boy" or "Girl" may be an interesting topic in
    and of itself. (Explosive ? )
    
    	Attribute it to my limited experience in the conference if you
    will, and please don't take offense - it is a curious observation,
    not a criticism.
    
    		Guy B.
    

    
    .74	Well said.
    
    Oh, -M-, you shouldn't have!! ;^)
    
    Perhaps, the whole situation could be cleared in a very simplistic
    manner.
    
    If a "female" tells you that she doesn't care to be referred to
    as "girl", then refer to her as "woman".
    This is known as courtesy.
    
    Perhaps the younger ones in here still haven't found that out.
    
    Gene~

    re: .75
    
    	You're right.  This topic is also another example of everyone
    	trying to change everyone else's opinion rather than sticking
    	to the subject at hand, or rather than offering experiences.
    	No, we can't do that, can we, we have to try to sway opinions
    	so they're allllllllll the same.
    
    							Carla
    

    The proverbial DEAD HORSE is beaten....
    
    Bill

    Hooray!  Can we NOW get back to the "regularly scheduled" topic?
    
    I'm an older woman who dated a younger man for 5 years.  We got
    along great, and he was quite a bit younger than me.  Age is just
    mind over matter.....if you don't mind, it don't matter.  (I think
    I said this before!)

    -Dotti.    
    

    A couple of thoughts come to mind:
    
    My sister is five or six years older than her husband and that
    relationship seems to be working out real well; it appears to me
    that they work pretty hard at their marriage and I suspect that
    has everything to do with their success.
    
    When I was a younger man (i.e. even a younger young man than I
    am now), I dated a woman who was my senior by six years and I'd
    have to say that she taught me more about, well, uh, I mean, 
    you know. . ."it" than anyone.  Specifically, she had enough
    self-confidence to know what she enjoyed and she was experienced
    enough to know that young male egos often have the toughness of
    egg shells.  With great skill she taught me a whole lot about 
    what goes where, how, and why.
    
    The relationship didn't last becuase I was unfortunately a much
    poorer student at the things that really matter over time - like
    how to be caring and compassionate.  It was a measure of my 
    ignorance at the time that it didn't particularly sting when
    she gave me her parting shot "You're great in the sack, Steve,
    but you're a rotten lover".  Over time, I came to regret that
    I hadn't paid more attention to matters of the heart, for she
    was truly a woman of great worth.
    
    The way I read the bottom line, it says that when two people
    know themselves well and care immensely for each other, there
    are few barriers that can't be overcome and even turned into
    pillars of mutual growth and love.
    
    Steve

    
    RE: .64
                 I JUST WANT TO SAY I AM AGREE WITH YOU.
    
    PATEL

    Like my boyfriend's mom said "what does age have to do with it?"  I was
    a little worried about the age difference and when he wanted to
    introduce me to his mom, I said "what will she think?" and he said she
    won't even notice.  Come to find out both of his parents thought that I
    was only 27....no need to worry.  I am close to 11 years older than he
    is and he don't mind at all and neither do his parents. I even 
    emphasized (to him) that I was way older than he is and he said it 
    didn't matter to him.  We get along quite well and I get along 
    well with his parents and sisters.  I've only met one brother once. Yet
    to meet the other.    
    Soooo.....it don't really matter now does it?
    

    Younger men and older women...hmmm...and vice versa...
    
    My mom was 54 this past summer, and she has been seeing a guy more than
    10 years younger for about 5 years now; they built a house together a
    few years ago, and it looks like a great relationship from the outside.
    
    My younger sister married a guy 11 years older a little over two years
    ago.  Its hysterical when Heidi, Bill, Bruce, and Mom get together; the
    two guys are less than 3 years apart.
    
    DougO

    I know a guy real well that married a woman 9 years his senior. They
    have a happy marriage and 3 kids (1 together).
    
    The Doctah

    And I heard tell that he is pretty good looking and his daughter
    resembles him.
    
    Hummmmm, do you know where there are any more like you...I mean him!
    
    J & J's Memere

    
    
    See Joyce...what did I tell you?
    
    I had a great aunt (well, she was *ok* :-] ) who was around 90 when
    she was married [it was her first marriage] and the man she married
    was 15 years younger!  They were happily married for 3 years when
    he passed away.  
    
    
    Krash
    

    
    
    	I used to date a guy about three years ago who was two
    	years my junior.  That's not much of an age difference
    	compared to some of the other replies I've read, but I'd
    	just like to say that we had the BEST communication of
    	any guy I had ever dated.
    
    	We broke up after almost a year of dating and I started 
    	to see my most recent boyfriend of 2 1/2 years (we've since
    	broken up as well) who couldn't communicate for a hill of
    	beans!!!
    
    	Different personalities?!  Who knows!  ...Age makes no 
    	difference to me if you can get along with each other.
    
    	/Kim (a.k.a Tigga~~~)
                                             

IMO the older you are the less difference age makes. Perhaps when a person 
enters the world as an adult they become mentally mature (hopefully) and
can form a relationship with essentially any other adult based on common 
interests.

I have seen people in their twenties dating people in their teens with 
age differences greater than five years.  I always wonder, is the younger
person unusually mature or the older one immature.

Once a person reaches adulthood (18 legally) then I guess it's up to them.
If my son/daughter were <18 and dating someone older than them I would 
watch the situation.  

Stan

	 Age is not really a factor I put much stress on....but rather
	 maturity...there have been men I have dated in their 30s and
	 they were very inmature, and there have been men that I
	 dated that were younger than me that were very mature......

         Basically, I would have no problem dating a man who could "be
	 my father" (so to speak) as long as the love and caring where
	 there, and if we could relate to each other as adults.

	 All too often people relate age and maturity rather closely,
	 when they are, in reality, two independent factors.

	 kath

    I have dated men of various ages.  From one who was 18 years my
    junior, to four years older than me.  The older one was a tad
    conservative, but the younger one(s) were great.  
    
    It all comes down to rapport, and yes maturity.
    
    ..dale
      

>>Once a person reaches adulthood (18 legally) then I guess it's up to them.
>>If my son/daughter were <18 and dating someone older than them I would 
>>watch the situation.  
  
    	I try not to believe that the difference of a day makes someone
    	an adult.  The day before your birthday, you're 17, POOF! the
    	next day you're an adult.  Technically, in the eyes of the law
    	(etc. etc.), but maturity and being an adult are two different
    	things, IMHO.
    
    	Like Kath said, I've dated older men with a VERY low level of
    	maturity, and I've dated younger men who are VERY mature.
    
    	To each his own, I believe.
    	
    	Tigga~~~