Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I tend to be a very open person and as such I generally have an
    idea who I can go to "to dump my bucket". I also tend to be very
    cognitive of people who have a bucket to dump but are holding back.
    When I sense this kind of situation I try to give that person the
    opportunity to open up. I don't always know the answers for them
    but I am willing to listen and try to help them out. I know even
    though I have never been married that a number of people have come
    to me with marital problems and asked me for suggestions.
    
    I guess the people to go to are those people you consider friends
    that will listen to you. After all friendship is a relationship
    and we should be able to ask our friends to help.

    al
    

    Hi, Bob.
    
    I think the hardest thing for me, or ONE of the hardest things, was
    telling people other than my closest friends.  Someone I didn't know
    very well would make some innocent comment like "What did your husband
    say about that?" and I'd find myself having to say "Well, actually,
    we're separated."  The other person's inevitable embarrassment was
    *very* difficult for me to deal with.  NOT telling them would be
    intentionally misleading, so I guess that's just part of the
    unpleasantness of marital separation.
    
    I agree that "dumping your bucket" on everyone isn't the right thing to
    do.  I also agree that (I'll probably get flamed for this) someone who
    hasn't been there cannot know what it is like, I don't care how long
    you dated or lived with someone, it doesn't matter, you don't really
    know how it feels.  I had relationships, was in love, got hurt, broken
    engagement, all that stuff, but till divorce came I could not begin to
    identify with the feelings involved.  I just didn't understand, so I
    couldn't do a whole lot to help someone going through it except to
    offer support. 
    
    I dumped on close friends, discussed it coldly and factually with those
    I wasn't close to, and displayed it to others by being a real *bitch*
    at the office and generally hard to get along with.  I'm certainly
    not *recommending* the latter approach (^; -- it just happens to
    be the way I unconsciously dealt with my stress bucket being full
    and overflowing.
    
    As far as being the dump-ee instead of the dump-er, now that I know
    what divorce is like, being dumped on doesn't bother me in the least.
    If I can help someone get through it or even just offer a few words of
    encouragement, I welcome the opportunity to help. 
    
    							Pat

    
    I agree very much with Pat's REPLY in -.1
    
    Also having been the "dumpee" rather than the "dumper" I found my
    bucket overflowing with feelings I never knew existed before, which
    is also why I also feel that it is VERY difficult (but not impossible)
    for someone who hasn't been through marital separation/divorce to
    fully understand what you are feeling and going through. Two of
    my closest friends, who helped me a LOT during the inital phases
    are both married and have not (thank God) ever been through a divorce,
    particularly not a nasty one.  The feelings of hurt, anger, resentment,
    sorrow, and lonliness are only a few that I had never felt SO intensely
    before and would not have been able to cope very well with, had
    it not been for those friends.  I wasn't until several months later
    that I finally got myself into circles of people who had been through
    what I was/am going through.  They were definitely better able to
    understand what I was feeling and offer very constuctive advice,
    or just listened, whichever I seemed to need at the time.  I have
    since been able to "be there" when they or others needed me to
    listen or suggest.  At this point it doesn't matter to me if the
    person I am trying to help was the "dumper" or the "dumpee", there
    are two sides to every story.....  I hope I will always be able
    to do that and right now I wouldn't give up ANY of the friends 
    I've made as a result of what I have gone/am going through!! 
    
    					Joe 

Re: .3
    
    When I talked about the dump-er and the dump-ee, I was referring
    to the person who shares his feelings as the the dump-er and the
    listener as the dump-ee.  I think you took it to mean the person
    who ended the relationship as the dump-er and the person who didn't
    want to end it as the dump-ee.  Not trying to nit-pick, but my reply
    takes on a slightly different tone with the intended meanings.
    
    						Pat

    
    If you're going to talk to someone, talk to someone you believe
    in.  It isn't going to help if you don't believe in them.
    
    While whining and bleeding on people around you may not make things
    any better, the release may make you better equipped to deal with
    them.
    
    I've never had problems with a marital situation (I'm only 23) but
    speaking from experience with some of life's other kicks to the
    midsection, I can only say that you must be prepared for a really
    rocky road if you're going to take whatever it is on all by yourself.
    I'm not saying it can't be done -- just that it's harder.
    
    If you let it be known that you're in need of a hand, people who
    are in a position to offer one will step forward and offer it. 
    
    Dave W.

RE: .*

Lots of people are saying that the best people to talk through, are the people
who "have been there".  If the seperation/divorce is enevitable, perhaps it is
best to talk to these people to find out how they *got over it*.

If, on the other hand if you are looking for clues to keep things together,
would it not make more sense to talk to people who have been sucessfull at
*keeping their relationships*? 

Jim.

    I will echo the comment about seeing an EAP counselor.  Our local
    counselor was the first person I told after my supervisor about
    the breakup of my marriage.  I had never considered seeing a counselor
    before, but having someone impartial who didn't know me or anyone
    else involved, who listened and offered reasonable advice, was
    wonderful.
    
    After two or three sessions, he referred me to a regular counselor
    (a "licensed social worker", it turned out - see a previous issue
    of Science 86 (I think?) for a description of the various kinds
    of counselors) - If you're on John Hancock, they pay 80% of the
    costs, which left me with $12 per session - cheap.
    
    However, one also needs to find a friend - just one will do - and
    unload.  I had to try a few of my friends before I found one who
    had the right attitude - some didn't want to hear about it.  But
    what you must avoid is telling EVERYONE about your problems.  If
    you start telling casual acquaintances about your deepest emotions,
    they're going to think you're wierd, or worse.
    
    But if the subject does come up in conversation, don't hide it,
    tell the bare minimum to get the point across.  If the person you're
    talking to wants to help, they'll let you know. 

    						Steve

    RE 76.1-76.11 and what I was really wondering about.
    
    When I wrote the base note, I had just realized that my situation
    was causing distress in the folks around me, and still don't feel
    that I can relate in a consistently positive way.  I appreciate
    the pointers to emotional support systems, but a system of friends,
    kin, therapist, pastor have evolved around me.  I am not sure I
    accept their support very graciously.  It seems like I relate to
    kin and friends in terms of their experience, and often this drags
    up unresolved stuff for them.  How can I nicely tell someone I care
    about and that cares about me that they appear to have all the baggage
    they can handle and shouldn't be offering to help carry mine and
    that I am not able to help them at this time?  All the answers
    that I are obvious to me have connotations/implications that I 
    don't like.  A similar problem seems to occur when I explain the
    stuff I am learning from the experience.  A couple of folks have
    interpreted that to mean that I am viewing this as a positive 
    educational experience and neither need nor deserve their compassion.
    That wasn't what I meant, at all.  There must be some cues and signals
    I can use to know how to avoid this kind of confusion.
  

    >that they appear to have all the baggage 
    >they can handle and shouldn't be offering to help carry mine 

	Yet, my own experience is that you can sometimes "put down" your 
	own baggage while helping to carry someone else's.  (yeah, I know, 
	that's stretching the analogy a bit!)  

	What I mean is that I discovered that it helped me to cope with my 
	own feelings and problems when I felt that I was helping someone 
	else deal with theirs.  I've also heard this reaction from others
	who've helped me.

	So don't try to judge that someone else can't "handle" helping you, 
	if they offer to help - or just to listen.

	I also second (third?  fourth?) the EAP recommendation.  If you're 
	in one of the HMOs, you usually have to use one of their doctors/
	counsellors/therapists, but the EAP people can help expedite the 
	referral process.  

		HH

    Bob,
        
    You said it's both rude and dumb to refuse an ear if one is offerred.
    I don't think so.  You may just not *want* to talk to everyone who
    offers an ear - whether it's a matter of trust, comfortability for
    you, etc.  A simply "thanks, I appreciate it and just may take you
    up on it" leaves the door open but doesn't require you to "open
    up" right then and there.  No hurt feelings, no problem, eh?
    
    As far as other advice specific to the situation... no can do. 
    I haven't experienced it.  All I can do is empathize, long-distance-
    like, and have you in my thoughts.  Oh, and offer a sympathetic
    ear in the event you should decide to take me up on the offer...
    
    Billie

    I forgot to mention that my note, .15, was replying to .0...
    Bob R.'s original note, not Bob_the_hiker's note .14.  Possibility
    for misunderstanding there and just wanted to clear things up.
    
    Billie
    

I use a logical equation to defines friends. To me, a friend
EQUALS someone who may take advantage of me while NOT making
me angry AND of whom I may take advantage, WITHOUT making me
feel guilty.

Based on the above, I would never dump on anyone I did not
consider a friend. I am not saying anyone else should adopt
this standard. All I am saying is, I won't ever do it.

It has happened that someone --obviously in pain-- wanted to
confide in me (since I never invite it, I have no idea why this
happens, but it sure does). On these occasions I feel the person
does not really need my help and could do without my advice. In
most of these cases any advice one could offer would be too late
anyway.

What these people need is to sort things out for themselves. So,
what I do, is listen and only ask questions whan I feel she --or
he-- is shooting off in a tangent into never-never land. In my
experience, this is the best help an unhappy person wants or needs.

In one case, after talking for over two hours, with me saying maybe
three sentences, a person thanked me warmly for all the good advice
I had given... When I pointed out I hadn't given any, she was
genuinely taken aback - she did not realize the advice given was
all her own.

-- Ron

    Re: .17
    
    I like your equation for friendship.  Here is my favorite saying
    on what a friend is...
    "A friend is someone in front of whom you can think out loud."
    I don't remember who said it.
    
    John M.

    You cannot experience distress without people either empathizing with
    your distress and/or remembering some distress of their own.  Nor should
    you expect to be able to do that.  What I'm driving at is that you should
    trust yourself to know when to stop, and trust your listeners to tell
    you when they can't or don't want to listen anymore.  (There will always
    be those who will badmouth you for talking about yourself too much --
    they've got their own problems).  In other words, talk if you feel like
    talking, be quiet if you feel quiet, but don't look at them for approval.
    You don't have to talk just because they lend an understanding ear if
    you're not ready for it.  On the other hand, if you feel like unloading
    some pent-up feelings (they don't have to make sense, you know) and somebody
    is willing to listen, then go ahead!
    
    I relate to this very well.  I never told people about my problems.
    Not that I went around claiming that everything was wonderful, I would
    just mention a problem I was having and then make it seem insignificant.
    "Don't worry, I'll work it out."  I didn't want anyone to "feel
    responsible" for my problems or think I couldn't handle it.  It never
    occurred to me that someone might just listen and not do or say anything
    about it.  On the other side of things, if I had just figured something
    out, I didn't want to tell anyone about either the problem or the solution
    because I was afraid they would think I wasting their time as in, "You've
    already figured it out, so why do you need to talk about it?"  Again,
    it never occurred to me that someone might just want to share my "little
    triumph" without judging me.  I'm getting better at "sharing," but it's
    still pretty hard.  I'm pretty reluctant to share at times, no matter
    what it is.
    
    It's not easy to trust anyone, even a close friend, after the demise
    of a relationship, no matter who or what started the demise.  But it is 
    just a step to going on.  We're all human.
    
    As far as "having been there," nobody has ever been where you've been.
    Period.  Everybody has had to, or will have to deal with some distress
    in their lives.  Some people can empathize with you, because they've
    had feelings like yours, others can only offer advice.  People can still
    be understanding and comforting in either case.
    
    Trust yourself and trust the people around you (not necessarily in the
    physical sense...).  
    
    
    							Terza
    
    

    I have found that once I accept the task of being the "Dumpee",
    a good technique for helping the "Dumper" unload is to give a massage,
    or a foot rub.  It is of course not appropriate or possible at all
    times or in all locations, but when/where appropriate, it can really
    help the "Dumper" to relax and and open up.
    
    Foot rubs are especially effective in this regard, as I have found
    on several occaisions recently.  There are certain theories in holistic
    health and in many eastern cultures about "Foot Reflexology" which
    attempt to explain how certain areas in the feet are connected to
    certain parts of the body and by massaging them, you can affect
    the "connected" part.  I don't know whether I believe that, but
    I have on several occaisions in the recent past helped a friend
    work out their feelings just by offering a sympathetic ear and giving
    them a foot rub and/or a massage.  It sounds a bit crazy, but try
    it -- it works.
    
    Dirk