Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I neglected to mention a couple of things;
    
    I have no fear of a divorced woman with kids as most of my relationship
    activities have involved divorced women with kids( I do enjoy the
    idea of bringing up children)

    I do think I want kids to be part of that relationship(whether ours
    or hers from the past).
    
    I am basically a typical down to earth but conservative type person(not
    moral majority). I guess I could be called a materialistic yuppie
    but not sure I totally qualify.
    
    al
    

    RE: 75.2
    
    My EAP therapist tells me that one can make a good living just helping
    people to understand what Suzanne just said.  As I understand it
    now, I have a set of blinders which cause me to only see certain
    types of female humans as potential SO, with the remainder as being
    seen as just people.  Further, it seems that, for most people, the
    more effective their blinders, the more pathological is the selection
    criteria.  In other words, I have only tended to see SO potential
    in people who were almost guaranteed disasters for me.  Anyway,
    if I see this as a problem and want to change it, therapist insists
    that I seek understanding of my blinders/filters rather than search
    for a new approach.  The problem is between my ears, and not in
    the world around me.  Anyway, that is what therapist said.
    
    Suzanne - I hope I am not misunderstanding what you said - it sounded
    the same to me.

    
    
    	Finding your SO is sorta like the game "Backgammon"; You can
    do better by using various strategies in play, but at least half
    of what happens is based on the roll of the die. In agreement with
    Suzanne, I'd say a good strategy would be to date and get to know
    even those who you "think" wouldnt be the one, cause you never know
    really. It may come to you without being based on any decision *you*
    have made -
    
    	People are paranoid. I am well within 3-sig of the big Three-O,
    and have been asked "So how come you havent been..." which translates
    to "So what's the matter with...". No one wants to bother with someone
    that has "problems", right? Even though they may be benign ones,
    like "I just wasnt ready yet" or "I havent found the right one".
    In 20 years? (Must be able to dig up *some* reason!) I'd stay away
    from the people who are bent on finding something "wrong" with you.
    
    	Try to work on a composure that is calm, happy and sure_of_what_you
    want. Do this by doing the things you like and being yourself. Work
    on your *karma* by doing nice, positive things for people. Some of
    it is bound to come back your way! 
    
    	Joe Jas
     

     Due to my involvement with the professional I came to understand
    better that I am typically drawn to takers - ie women who need someone
    who can resolve their current problems for them. Once they have
    gotten all they need from me, then it becomes dump time.
    
    Yes I am probably being more selective, but I am trying to find
    a sharer and avoid a total taker. I would probably be characterized
    by most of my friends as a giving concerned person who is willing
    to do almost anything to help someone out.
    
    I have been dating a woman who is older than me and we do have a
    good time, but I don't see that it would develop over time to anything
    longterm. She now refers to me as her big brother and looks to me
    for advice on the men she is dating.

    I guess I feel I am in some kind of time warp or something similar
    in that those women who I might find compatible would be in the
    late twenties to mid thirties and are either wrapped up in their
    carreers or are still recovering from a bad marriage and haven't
    jumped back into the serious relationship mode. It seems that most
    eligibles are in the early twenties or in forties bracket.
    
    Maybe I am looking to hard and not seeing the trees in the forest.
    Or then again maybe I am looking in the wrong forest. Or maybe I
    have just lost the ability to look.
    
    al
    
    
       

    Now this is just a suggestion, it worked for me, it may work for
    you.
    
    
    
    Al, it may be helpful if you could try and change your attitude
    a little bit.  i.e. - I have always found companionship in others
    and always looked to them to fullfil my life.
    
    Since my seperation, I have had a complete turnaround as far as
    that attitude above goes.  It was my only chance for happiness and
    survival.  You see, what you need to realize and start living by
    is the fact that  } YOU { are the one who is going to make your life
    satistying and happy.
    
    I realize that you may not want to do that alone, but you can't
    go out and expect to find that special someone to fill all that
    emptiness.  You are the only person who can do that.  SO - why don't
    you get going and work on it.  
    
    Have you had the opportunity to take "Investment in Excellence"?
    Your library (HLO?) may have them for use.  Take the time to view
    a couple of them, they may help with the transition.
    
    Once you feel good about yourself, and not *absolutely* needing
    the other half, you may be suprised .....
    
    I don't mean to imply that you don't feel good - but as the others
    said earlier, people may be able to read from you that you are seeking
    a permanent relationship, etc. and if you could just wake in the
    morning and know that you will have a good day - chances are - You
    will have a *GREAT*  day.
    
    Good luck. 
    
    I hope you do have the time and desire to watch the films, they
    certainly have helped me, and to tell you the truth - I have met
    a lot more people - I feel better about myself - don't *need* a
    man - and realize that I control the world.  The world does not
    control me.  So, when I wake up in the morning, I tell myself I
    am going to have a good day....etc.
    
    Good luck.  I hope you find what you are seeking and you may be
    suprised to find that your desires look a little different than
    you thought!
    
    Laura
                                                                   

    I like the suggestion in .9.
    
    I had a long term, serious relationship that ended because I knew it
    was the right time. Even so, I hated being alone and on my own. I had
    to pick up a 2nd job to make ends meet. I was grumpy and disgruntled
    and didn't like myself much at all. 
    
    Then, after about 6 months like that, something changed in my attitude.
    I can't even pin it to any event, just a general "Get on with your
    life!" I came to like myself, I realized I could live on my own,
    and I realized that I didn't NEED companionship. I might have to
    live out my life on my own, and I could do it very well, thank you.
    
    Almost as soon as I decided this, friends, companions and lovers
    started falling over themselves to get to me. It HAD to have been
    my change in attitude. The realization that I was enough for me,
    sent out some sort of signal, that indicated I was ready for
    equal relationships with others. I could hold up my half of things.
                                                                      
    I'm sorry I can't tell you *how* to make this happen for yourself.
    It is very definitely a self-discovery that you can only make by
    facing yourself and knowing yourself. 
    
    Tamzen

    I agree too. It's in the attitude.  If you feel good about yourself,
    you're attractive to others.  I've purposely put aside any preconceived
    notions about my "ideal woman" and have gone out with several women I
    had not even met in person before. I've always enjoyed myself, never
    been disappointed, and also have realized that in almost every case I
    didn't learn enough on the first date to be able to determine if a
    long-term relationship was possible.  Great excuse for second and third
    dates! 
    
    But also, and this is very important - you're making a big mistake
    if you treat every date as an "interview with prospective SO". 
    Just meeting new people and having a good time with them really
    improves ones morale.  Sure I'd like to get into a serious relationship
    with someone - but I know that will come out of friendship, trust
    and being comfortable with someone - and the only way to become
    comfortable is to keep going out there and meeting new friends.
    If all that is on your mind is "I don't wanna die a bachelor - gotta
    find me a WOMAN!", you're setting yourself up for failure.
    
    					Steve
    

Believe the following can overcome many of the mentioned traps.

GET INVOLVED IN SOME ACTIVITY WHICH YOU REALLY ENJOY.  THEN LET
YOURSELF GO AND GET REALLY INVOLVED.  If you love the activity, the 
involvement will come without effort.  Do this because you enjoy the
activity, not to meet people.  [If you don't know what activity this
is, try a few or read (even notes) and then try till you find one.] 

Then, I think you will find the following happens:

1.	You gain self-confidence because you become good at 
the activity, since you enjoy it.  Others see this self-confidence.
You can be yourself without reservations.

2.	You have a natural area for conversation since people share 
the interest.  It isn't forced (like a dating bar for instance).

3.	You learn to like a potential S.O. (or anyone for that matter)
because of conversation and honest interaction.  This inhibits looking
for your sterotype or judging people on first impression.  It will all
happen naturally while you are NOT looking. 

For me, cycling was such a catalyst.

	Mike

Hi Al,

Actually you are at an advantage never having been married. There is alot
of "excess baggage" created by a divorce and brought into subsequent 
relationships.

Many women would love to be involved with an individual that is
established in a career and READY to be involved in a relationship.
Being single in your 30's or 40's or whenever is NOBODY'S fault.
It simply means you haven't met the right person yet.

I agree with .13.  By becoming involved in something you are interested
in, you will meet compatible women.  Rather then taking another computer
course, how about a cooking course?  You will probably be one a few males
in a class like that.  ;^)  Do things to increase your chance of meeting
women.  

Don't worry so much about it.  And it is important to be happy with
yourself.

I too, used to lament, I used to wonder where all the decent men
were hiding.  But as a good friend of mine (who had been divorced)
said, "Its better to be looking for Mr. (Ms.) Right, then to be
married to Mr. (Ms.) Wrong.

    Let me start with some good news before I relate to some of the
    feedback in the previous replies. One problem I have been dealing
    with is finding a new job where I can essentially start over with
    new challenges, enviroment and where I won't have to carry some
    of the negative baggage that current and past job have generated.
    This morning my manager informed me that she has given me my release
    so I can move to a new job in the US AREA at WFR. So right now I
    feel like the "NEW BEGINING" is ahead of me. Hopefully the happiness
    of leaving the current enviroment will show as I meet new people.
    
    BAck to the points in the previous replies:
    
    I didn't use to think a lot of myself in a positive way and probably
    showed a lot of insecurities in different ways. Since I have been
    getting the professional help, I have found that most of the previous
    SO's were the ones who were messed up and that my outlook on myself
    was really very good. My problem was really one of having gotten
    involved with these women for mostly the wrong reasons and not having
    recognized up front that I was repeating the mistakes of my past.
    It took a lot on my part to finally tell my ex SO that I could no
    longer take an active part in helping her bring up her two boys
    from previous marriage(I have been involved with the two little
    guys since she and I broke up over 4 1/2 years ago. I know the boys
    won't understand why I don't come around anymore, but I know in
    my heart that I needed more from the relationship than I was getting.

    During my current dating spree which has been generated from both
    the singles conference and from some introductions by friends, I
    have found several women who I would like to have dated more than
    the initial time, but found that they were not interested in further
    dates meetings etc. I do feel that I have made friendships with
    most of them although they might be pretty shallow friendships at
    that. Actually I would have gone out with all of them more than
    once if for no other reason than to get to know them better and
    try to let the friendship help bolster the remnants of my confidence.
    
    I don't feel that I have a totally preconceived notion who ms right
    will be. She may be very similar to my personality - she may be
    totally opposite me, but in any case she will be willing to share
    and learn from me as I will be to her. I do have some things
    personality wise that I think would be a start as to interests etc.
    It doesn't really make a lot of sense to date someone for the sake
    of dating. I mean I believe that people date because they share
    a common interest of some type with the other person. 
    
    I do feel that when two people meet that there is some kind of
    electrical charge or whatever you want to call it that makes those
    two people want to gravitate to each other.
    
    I will probably try to go to some adult ed type courses - cooking
    could be a good one, volleyball, antique refinishing etc as these
    might have some potential for contacts. 

    I still am concerned because I know the singles and H.R. conferences
    generate a fairly large readership. I find it hard to understand
    why some of the single/divorced women out there seem to be burying
    their heads in the sand when they could be going out with a guy
    who enjoys a good time but more importantly knows how to share of
    himself. How do I find some of these women or am I wasting my time
    worrying about women who are so hung up that they won't show any
    interest. 
    
    For all of you who have lent an ear to my tale of sorrow and have
    come up with suggestions hints etc - I really do appreciate it and
    look forward to meeting those of you who will be coming to the party.
    I hope that any of you who need a hand or help will be as free to
    ask of me as I have been of you.
    
    thanks
    
    al
    

    Re .15:
    
    Al, the single women who read this file aren't exactly hiding, but
    they're not necessarily going to deluge you with requests for dates
    either.  You've got to go looking for women who you think are
    interesting and contacting them yourself.  Some will be fearful
    of a "blind date", but others will take the chance.  As long as
    you take it easy, and keep the pressure off, the two of you will
    have a nice time.
    
    When you see a note of someone's that attracts you, go see if they
    signed in in note 3, look in WHOAREYOU, look for other notes they
    wrote, etc., and then send them a note and say "Hi".   (Women,
    you can do this too!)
    
    If nothing else - the H_R party on the 18th will provide a "safe"
    way for a lot of us to meet each other without pressures.
    					Steve

	Ok, wait a minute.  Some people are saying that Al should be looking
    and other people say that he shouldn't be looking.  I think that this
    point should be addressed first.  I say he definately should be looking,
    but that he shouldn't be desparate about it.  Desparation sometimes scares
    people off because they're afraid it might rub off on them or something.

	As to where to look, well, this is such a tricky subject as far as our
    environment here at DEC is concerned.  Obviously, as a DEC employee (esp-
    ecially a DEC Vaxnoter like yourself), you've already got zillions of ways
    to meet people literally at your fingertips!  However, this is a company,
    not a dating service (not that DEC couldn't make millions off Vaxnotes if
    such a service was made available, but that's not the issue here).

	The point I'm trying to make here is that one of the so-called
    "first-draft" company resources rules mentions something about "soliciting",
    and I would guess that someone could interpret that as including yourself
    as well.  This issue has not really surfaced as of yet, but nothing really
    surprises me anymore where Net-Police are concerned (having just discover-
    ed the latest note deletion).  As a result, Vaxmail and Vaxphone are the
    only viable alternatives, but even those are hardly private, nor are they
    even condoned for this purpose.

	Ah ha!  You say, but there is always the telephone!  But with the
    marvels of DTN, even your phone-calls can be monitored.  The only way,
    which I can see would be both private and DEC-legal would be to let your
    feet do the walking and physically go and talk to them.  Unfortunately,
    nobody has time to walk around a whole lot at work, and as a result, you
    might not get around to it as often as is neccessary to kindle a new love.

	As a result, DEC-dating is somewhat stymied be the constant uncertainty
    of what the corporate powers that be might have to say about such practices,
    and the resulting role which the Net-Police would play in such a relation-
    ship.  As a result, at least until the waters become a little more tested
    concerning the use of corporate resources for dating purposes, I would say
    that you would have a much safer time dating non-DEC women, or at least not
    dating DEC women during working hours.  I think your party should allow you
    the chance to meet a few new faces, and who knows what might happen with
    all the match-makers as well as lonely hearts out here?

							-davo

    Al,
    
    It sounds as though you are trying too hard. My experience comes solely
    from being an avid reader of Ann Landers column, but a similar sort of
    letter comes up fairly frequently. I have always thought that Ann's
    advice was trite, but sound. Don't look too hard - get engaged in
    communal activities that interest you. When you meet someone don't
    immediately start thinking about spending the rest of your life with
    her. Let things take their course, they have a way of working out. 
    
    Good luck
    
    Tim
    

Boy, is this conference busy!  I'm gone 4 days and have been playing 
catch-up ever since.  Next week i'm on vacation for two weeks...

Anyway Al, I can relate.  Even though i've got a few years before i'm 
in my late thirties, (i'll be turning 32 the day after XMAS), i can't 
help but notice that my biological clock has been ticking louder.  I 
can understand the frustration that you are experiencing and i like 
many people am worrying about spending my life very alone, too.  The 
strange thing is that i was, or thought i was, until about a year ago, 
perfectly happy in my life, half dating someone who at one time i was 
serious with for the first 4 years, and at the same time casually dating
other women, while my old relationship gradually faded.  I was very open 
about this with both parties involved.  I guess, in retrospect, i should 
of either made my long term relationship work, or severed it because i 
see now that it only prevented any new relationship from developing into 
something more permanent.  But, i was only concerned about having fun 
and my SO of 7 years, who is finally now my ex SO, agreed to it while 
she also dated other guys.

Well, eventually the inevitable happened.  A little while back, i met 
someone who was truly different than anyone i had ever known, both in my 
short term (and long term) involvements.  At first though, i wasn't all 
that crazy about her.  She talked about marriage  constantly but i kept 
changing the subject because i didn't think that she possessed the 
preconceived qualities that i thought my wife should have.  Of course, 
there were cultural & family differences that came along with her which 
at times made life very difficult (but also interesting) for the both of 
us, but eventually we resolved these problems and we got along great.  

But my difficulty was that i kept comparing her to my ex SO, and expected 
her to act and react the same way that i was used to with my ex and had 
to work this problem out within myself before even considering marriage.
I know this was wrong but i did it anyway.  I eventually realized after 
spending more time together, that i had fallen very much in love with her.  
No, it didn't hit me like a ton of bricks like i always thought that it 
would, it just sort of happened one day and did it surprise me!  I've been 
in love before but this was truly a deeper and more honest and real love 
than i had ever experienced.  So i decided the time was right to marry her.  
Wow, finally after 31 years i'm going to do it!  The girl of my dreams had 
become a reality...

Yeah, right!

It's been 3 months now since she gave me the ring back for reasons i can't
fully understand.  In retrospect, the marriage more than likely wouldn't 
have made it a year but by no fault of my own.  I really believe that she 
thought she was in love with me because the sex was so great (this i have 
found to be characteristic from personal experience of young, impressionable 
girls in their early 20's, she being 22).  She phoned me on Monday to tell 
me that she's moving to Florida.  (Before that it was N.Y. and before that it 
was California!)  I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't go anywhere.  I don't 
know why she had to tell me.  This is definitely her loss (and mine too).  
I think I was too good for her, anyway.

I know i'm starting to ramble and drift off the subject with my own personal
problems but the pain is still there.  My point is that this is the first 
time in 8 years that i find myself truly alone and its not a very content
feeling although i am handling it all right.  The first thing i tried to do was 
to run out and find someone else to take the place of her.  Of course, that 
didn't work.  Now that i'm slowing down a bit, i am beginning to accept the 
fact that it could happen that i will remain single for the rest of my life, 
but what the heck, it wouldn't be THAT bad.  After all, at least i don't have
alimony or child support payments.  But then again, i don't have a child,
either, and that's not so good, but neither is a child in a broken marriage.

But if it so happens that i remain alone (which i doubt it will-i'm only 31!)
there will be this emptiness always inside of me, a piece of me that is 
missing, a piece that i will be on a never ending search to find.  And only 
when i do find it, then can i be whole again and at rest with myself and at 
peace with my life and will no longer have to put my #1 priority at finding
a SO (although sometimes it slips to #2).  

Sure, i have my family, my friends and my 11 month old almost full grown
puppy (which my ex gave me) and a house which feels very empty and lonely 
at times.  Although, they are a help, they are definitely not a substitute 
for the emotional needs (yes, i DO need) that a woman/friend/companion/lover
can give me.  Am i making too big a deal of all this?

I am really tired of this "singles scene".  I know married many men envy us, 
Al.  The grass is always greener...right?  But being alone has afforded me 
the opportunity to re-discover myself and re-establish old friendships and 
some new.  I observe events that happen around me more, now, and i view many 
things in a different light than i did before my life entered the state of 
limbo that it is presently in.  I even discovered emotions that i didn't 
know i had.  I honestly do not like being alone, but i know that if i come 
across as though i'm desperate for marriage or a serious relationship, it 
can and most certainly will scare a potential SO, away.

It seems to me, also, that there is a definite shortage of available woman 
in this area.  The only ones i seem to find are married, engaged women, women 
involved with someone or young girls in their early 20's.  The younger girls
become attracted to me because they see stability and security in me and 
they look to me for support.  I guess after a while they get tired of it 
and move on.  Most young girls really don't know what they want at that 
age and i won't waste anymore time with them while they try to figure 
themselves out.  As an example, I met someone who is 22 at the fitness 
club that i belong to, a while back.  I saw her there a few times and we 
became friends.  Recognizing that we had some common interests, i asked 
her if she'd like to go out to lunch, sometime.  Her reply was that she 
would feel funny because she was seeing someone.  Well, that must of really
scared her because i haven't seen her at the club, since!  My God, it was 
only a simple lunch!

In any case, what ever happens, will, and although i'll never stop looking,
i'm going to take things in stride and maybe someone special will come along.
I certainly deserve it.  And i know if it does happen, it will be much better
this time because through all of this i think i have grown and become a 
stronger person.  But right now i am going to enjoy my temporary freedom and 
try to bring some order to my world again.  Next week i'm going to the west 
coast for some long needed R&R.  Thanx for listening (hope i didn't bore 
anyone) and remember, Al, that your not alone in your search.

              Ah, to be loved, again...
 					-jim-


                 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                 I must conquer my loneliness
                 alone.

                 I must be happy with myself
                 or i have
                 nothing
                 to offer.

                 Two halves have
                 little choice
                 but to
                 join;
                 and yes,
                 they do
                 make a
                 whole.

                 but two
                 wholes
                 when they coincide...

                 that is
                 beauty.

                 that is
                 love.

                          -Peter McWilliams
                 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>    ...and have been asked "So how come you havent been..."

I have a friend who used to answer that with "Just lucky, I
guess".


>     A male friend of mine in high school
>     once told me that "if there is such a thing
>     as the perfect girl, I'm going to find her
>     and marry her."

The story is that George Bernie Shaw had also made up his
mind to marry the Ideal Woman. He spent years and years,
looking for her. When he finally found her, she was already
married - to the Ideal Man.

-- Ron