Conference quark::human_relations-v1

        In general I don't believe in equality.
        
        How's that for an opening line?
        
        Men are different from women and individual men (or women) are
        different from each other. People of different cultural
        backgrounds have different expectations. People have different
        amounts of power in many realms, and it is unethical to treat
        subordinates the way you treat peers or superiors.
        
        Each person should be treated as themself and as a member of the
        group and classes they belong to. The weak should be helped, the
        strong should be expected to be supportive. Potential sexual
        partners should be handled differently from those with whom it
        is out of the question.
        
        Groups of people have shared characteristics. They can be treated
        negatively as stereotypes, but they are real. Men and women,
        blue and white collar, blacks and whites, Americans and
        Russians, Christians and Jews, Englishmen and Spaniards, we have
        different expectations, capabilities, strengths, weaknesses and
        insights. We don't need to patronize or hate or look down on
        each other, but we are different, and we may need to be treated
        differently (although with the same amount of respect).
        
        I don't kiss my male friends, and I don't get touch my female
        friends without making sure that they understand how I mean it
        and that they are comfortable with it. I try not to stand too
        close to my friends with very large personal space requirements
        (often English or New Englanders) nor shrink before my friends
        with very close personal space (often Latino or Mediterranean).
        I defer to those higher in the hierarchy and look out for the
        well being of those lower. I make opportunities for and instruct
        my subordinates and look for support and advice from my
        superiors.
        
        You can't treat people solely as members of groups. Each is
        their own person, and you have to sensitive as to when they are
        very different from your expectations, but you can't treat
        people as if they were all the same nor throw out all
        expectations.
        
        Bring on the flames.
        
        JimB. 

    Re .1, well if all this means that you believe in women's rights
    but if I had a flat tire on my car you'd change it for me, it's
    fine with me!
    
    Lorna
    

    RE:  2
    
    That reminds me of the time I met a male co-teacher of Dons at the
    grocery store on a COLD, dark, snowy night.  His car wouldn't start and
    neither of us had jumper cables with us (unusual for me).  At that
    time I was on the road a lot and knew the local gas station well
    so over I went to borrow jumper cables.  We returned to his car
    and it soon dawned on me that he hadn't a clue as to how to jump
    start a car (it was cold and his car...why should I freeze if he
    knew how to do it?).  Out I climb and proceed to jump start the
    monster.  He talked for years at school about it.
    
    On the other hand I had a flat tire not too far from home fairly
    recently and to save my soul could not break the lug nuts free.
    I went home (Don was still sleeping) got the cross bar and STILL
    couldn't get the blasted things free.  At this point I went home
    and woke Don to have him give it a try.  He succeeded.
    
    All of which is to say, yes Jim I quite agree with your view.  We
    each have strengths (emotional/mental/physical) and weaknesses.
    I hope I always strive to give help to / accept help from others
    as is appropriate.  I find it easy to give to others, but tend to 
    have a lot of trouble asking for help ("Mother, I'ld rather do it 
    myself" syndrome) and have to work hard to accept help from others.
    
    Audrey

    
    I always get into trouble with this.  Every so often we run into
    little hurdles in life where bigger means easier.  Now, I'm a fairly
    husky guy, so when I perceive these situations I kind of gravitate
    toward them, and a lot of the time I get a lot of flak from some
    female concerned I'm trying to assert some kind of male dominance
    thing.
    
    Ridiculous!  I'm trying to get your blankety-blank sofa up three
    flights of stairs, or get your expletive deleted car out of the
    snow!  I have eight inches and well over a hundred pounds on your
    average female, and if that makes the task at hand easier, why not
    just let me help you out without giving me a lecture?
    
    I don't want your undying gratitude.  A simple "Thanks, Dave," will
    do quite nicely.  I'm not trying to assert here that every woman
    I've ever met is an ungrateful witch, but neither should they assume
    because I'm an oversize male that I'm living out some kind of Conan
    fantasy by giving them a hand when they ask for it.
    
    Dave W.

    As an almost-six-foot tall, strong, husky female-type-person (lady?
    woman?  Girl?  whatever!), I don't run into as much sex-stereotyping
    as smaller and more daintily-constructed women - which may not be
    too fair, either, but that's the way it is.  It is hard for a man
    to think of me as being incompetent to, say, jump-start my car,
    if I tower over him or even can look at him eye-to-eye.  I always
    wished that I would make it to six feet, but I am an inch or so
    too short.
    
    How I'm perceived also depends on what I am doing, too.  Those of
    you who know me know that I do work on amateur radio towers for
    people all over New England.  As it is, I am one of very few lady
    riggers anywhere I go.  If I am going to help work on someone's
    tower who hasn't run into me before, I make sure that they (usually,
    he) sees that I brought my own gear, and I usually try to make one
    of the first climbs, so that the owner thinks I am "one of the crew"
    rather than a by-stander.  Some of the men who do tower work are
    extremely shy people (true of a lot of amateur radio operators).
    A lot of these men (remember, there are VERY few other women) have
    no trouble working with me a hundred feet up in the air, but revert
    to their usual shyness when we are all back down on level ground
    again; a lot of these fellas don't know how to "talk to a lady",
    as they view it, but do know how to talk to someone they are working
    with.

    
    You're right.  I wasn't clear.
    
    The feeling I was describing only comes in a situation where the
    person who needs the help has come over and said, "Dave, I could
    use your help with this."
    
    I am not in the habit of simply sauntering over and lending a hand
    whenever.  In fact, unless explicitly asked, I'm likely to simply
    look and see "Oh, someone doing something" and then go on my merry
    way.  Unless, as you say, they need my help.  And it would have
    to be pretty obvious.  I'm sort of known for existing in a space-time
    that isn't quite in synch with what's going on.
    
    It seems, from the text of the earlier reply, that I'm doing some
    sort of Lone Ranger thing.  I'm not.
    
    Have I made myself any clearer, or have I just thickened the fog
    of mystery?
    
    Dave W.

    
    Re .6, well, since I only weigh 95 lbs., and since I don't make
    much money :-(, I will always be happy to have someone (strong,
    big male *or* strong, big female) change the tires on my car, and
    carry my sofas around free of charge if they are willing to help.
     I would help other people do those things if I could but am just
    too "daintily constructed" as .5 put it (sounds much nicer than
    shrimp) to do those heavy tasks.
    
    As for the mention in one note of women going to war, I'll go to
    war when men start having babies!  (*Nobody* should be going to
    war!)
    
    Lorna
    

    My philosophy is that I treat EVERYONE as equals, until shown
    otherwise.  This sometimes gets me into trouble, but I still think
    it is the healthiest attitude.  By equal I mean equal status,
    intelligence, ambitions, etc.  I don't necessarily distinguish
    between men and women in this context.
    
    However, I don't consider equal to mean identical (hang the
    mathematics!).  I'm a lot taller than most people, men or women,
    so sometimes I have to take that into account, especially when
    high shelves are around.  I am also a helpful sort, offering
    assistance frequently, though sometimes where it isn't necessarily
    wanted.  I'm known at work as being the person one comes to if you
    have a question about just about anything technical - I don't pretend
    to know everything, but I know where to find out, and then we both
    know.
    
    As I said in an earlier note, I am proud to number several women
    among my friends - and I think that a male-female friendship is
    something special indeed.
    					Steve

    
    I agree with you wholeheartedly, Steve!!  I also feel very lucky
    to have several female friends who help me keep things in perspective
    and whose opinions I value greatly!!
    
    				Joe

    Whoever can do the job should do it. Whoever needs help should
    get it. Not only should men be more aware of whether a woman
    *wants* help with some task like changing a tire or hauling a
    sofa up three flights of stairs, but women should be aware that
    an offer of help in such situations could be simple an act of
    courtesy, and not a expression of male superiority. I think *that*
    is what Dave was objecting to --- that there can be an assumption
    about his motivations that doesn't reflect reality.
    
    I have in the past gotten flack from a woman for whom I held open
    a door. It never occurred to her that I do the same for men. She
    just assumed I was on a macho chivalry trip.
    
    --- jerry

    We are all lucky that we live in "enlightened" countries, or some
    of these issues would never come up!  Wehn I worked for Burroughs
    years ago (and, boy, what a crummy outfit to work for!  But that
    is a different story.  Stick to DEC!), I worked with a very good
    senior software support person keeping the operating systems running
    (B6700 and B7700 dual-processor mainframes - very big systems in
    those days, which was 12 years ago).  Linda was one of the best
    in the company, which is why she was at that particular customer
    site.  She had horror stories to tell of having been sent to fix
    a system somewhere in Saudi Arabia, where a female engineer (outside
    of an American or British company compound, anyhow), especially
    in those days, was a contradiction in terms.  She had to wear a
    veil, not be alone in the same room (say, the computer room!) as
    a man not her husband (who was also working for Burroughs and was
    not along on the trip, of course)....  She swore she'd NEVER go
    back, no matter how much they needed help there!