Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Eventually I did learn, but it was a rough and rocky road. I have
    heard other people have this problem...without really noticing it
    at first, I had a tendency to pick out the same type of individual
    that I had failed with before. But after I'd made a few mistakes,
    I took a good look at what qualities all the men I failed with had
    in common.
    
    I kept picking men who were fun but were in definite need of reform
    I just knew that *I* could improve the quality of their lives and
    get them started down a road that would be healthier, more profitable
    and beneficial to society in general.
    
    What an innocent! What a dummy I was! MORAL:: Never marry anybody
    that you want to change. Not even teeny tiny little changes that
    *you* think will make them happier. Total acceptance of who they
    are and what they are is essential! <At least in my experience.>
    If you don't love them the way they are, then you don't love them.
    
    -sunny-who-speaks-with-the-voice-of-experience-

        I'm not divorced and the following observation will probably
        get me in hot water, but... From both this file and Sexcetera
        we've heard a lot from divorced people about the whys and
        wherefores of their divorces, and I've noticed a trend. In
        almost all of the cases, the divorce is described as the other
        person's fault. The spouse who writes in the conference is
        always the wronged, surprised or injured party.
        
        Now either we're really lucky, and DEC and the noting community
        have all the good guys, or about 50% *AT THE VERY LEAST* of
        these people are deceiving themselves. I say at the very least,
        because it is entirely possible that more than one of the
        partners is to blame.
        
        So, Steve, I would say that if you find one of the others who
        have realistically stood up to their own participation in the
        events leading up to their divorce, you may do well with a
        divorc�e, but in all probability you are more likely get one who
        has not realized their own failings and short comings, and
        are likely to relive the experience.
        
        JimB. 

    
    	Please explain the idea behind "I cant expect (the other person)
    to feel the same way about me as I do about them". I would *hope*
    that, if your starting a relationship or marriage, that the other
    *would* feel like you do, with the ideal state being a symetrical
    balance.
    
    	One possibility I can see in a "straight" relationship is that
    with the other being the "opposite" sex, you could never expect
    feelings to be exactly alike, because she's a woman and you're a
    man, for example.
    
    	
    	Joe Jas
    

    Re .3:
        What I actually said was that I can't ASSUME she feels the
    same way - I didn't say EXPECT.  I would certainly HOPE that she
    cares as much for me as I do about her, but if I ASSUME she does,
    and either don't ask or don't keep up the effort to maintain
    the relationship, I'm headed for trouble.  Sometimes (often?) you
    have to look past the words and look at reactions, etc, since
    there is often the tendency to say "Everything's fine" when in
    fact it isn't.  

        A large contribution to the breakup of my marriage was that
    I didn't realize this.  I've learned to "read between the lines"
    and get a sense of emotions irregardless of the words surrounding
    them.  I think I'm getting the hang of it.
    
    
    Re .2:
        I agree with your comments, Jim.
    
    					Steve

    re 2:
    
    I agree absolutely.
    
    It was interesting in Don's and my situation (we divorced after
    three years of marriage in a six year partnership, never seperated
    and so far ... one year later ... are in very good shape) that I
    was the one who said half seriously / half jesting "maybe what we
    need to do is divorce and just go back to being partners".  What
    a can of worms that opened; not as much for him as me.  Turned out
    that with my background I had a real hard time working through 
    feeling extremely rejected.  But oh how much we both learned about
    what we each could and could not give, what our gifts to the
    relationship were, and finally the negative (baggage if you will)
    each of us bring with us to a relationship and maybe a little how
    to compensate.
    
    It was a time, without doubt, of lots of pain and lots of joy.
    We were lucky that my gut remark sparked the whole process;
    because I suspect had we let the relationship continue the course
    it was on it would have ended within the next two or three years.
    
    Whew, with sweaty hands.  I'm feeling much like Lee, first time
    I've really publically talked about this!
    
    I too will take the course of writing this lest I do my usual two
    control Z's ... with my usual thoughts of "are your out of your
    mind Schneider?!?",
    			 Audrey

    
    	So, how much effort is required to maintain a relationship??
    I'd expect that its more than the maintanence of your car (if you
    have a "good" one), but less than the work required to maintain
    your job (8+ hours / day)
    
    	I've also gotten the feeling that it has something to do with
    the S.O.'s character - self worth - that is. If the S.O. "rates"
    a Ten by societies or the media's standards, He / She can really
    take you to the cleaners - if they want to - because they *know*
    they're worth it, also, if you're not willing to "put out" they
    know someone else would be glad to.
    
    	So what you have depends on how badly you want to work for it,
    aye?
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    Re .6:
    
    If you realize the effort is necessary, that's most of it.  It's
    largely a set of attitudes.  Making sure your S.O. knows you
    love him/her frequently, though not on a rigid schedule that makes
    a game of it, will help.
    
    I agree with your comment about "self worth", but not in relation
    to how they rate with "society", whatever that is.  What is
    important is how they rate with THEMSELF - the more they like
    themselves, the easier it is to have your love accepted and the
    easier it is to maintain the relationship.  (Of course, you have
    to like yourself too!)
    
    This is probably why I said in the "Turn-ons" note that a woman
    who likes herself turns me on, because it'll be easier for me
    to love her! (If you have to spend too much effort in "proving" 
    your love, you'll just end up frustrated.)
    					Steve

    Does anyone have statistics on the probability of success on an
    nth marriage as a function of duration of period between
    marriages?  It seems to me that the highest probability of failure
    lies with rapid remarriage.

    Well, my first husband was remarried and divorced again before I
    remarried.  The funny thing was, his second wife came over one time
    to talk to me (before they married, I think) about various problems
    she had getting one with him -- I had to laugh at one point because
    some of the things she said rang so true.  I guess she really only
    married him to go after a big alimony settlement, as it turned out;
    they were divorced (except for the formalities of the settlement
    - which may even still be going on five years later for all I know)
    in less than three months.  My ex had me agree to change our divorce
    paperwork from "no fault", which had a one-year waiting period
    (probably still does?) to "cruel and abusive treatment", which had
    a six-month waiting period, so that he could remarry that much sooner,
    which was OK by me (though I had wanted to preserve our marriage,
    I was just as glad to get rid of him and has mean, unpredictable
    temper, once he moved out of the house I had paid for).
    
    I realize that that was an anecdote, not a statistic, but it's all
    I have, sorry!
    
    ON a happier note, lest I depressed someone on this foggy, gloomy
    day, I'd like to report that my own second marriage is very, very
    happy, and I feel very lucky to have found Paul, who is a pleasure
    to have around.  My first marriage lasted six (mostly unpleasant)
    years; Paul and I have been married for four and half very happy
    years, so far.

    re .10 [re .8], increased divorce rate for remarried individuals:
    
    I think it would be wrong to interpret the statistical data as
    indicating that remarried persons are more prone to have problems or
    "haven't learned."  I suspect that people who have been through a
    divorce would be more likely to and sooner to consider divorce as an
    option in a situation where they were having marital difficulties than
    those who have not.  I say that because it took me a long time to
    accept divorce as an option in the case of my first marriage, more
    because I didn't consider it as an option, NOT because of the magnitude
    of the difficulties. 
    
    I think I have learned a lot as a result of my experiences.  Anyone who
    knows my wife Linda, and has met my ex (and talked with her for more
    than 30 sec) would certainly agree that I've at least become
    considerably more selective.  :-)
    
    Sound like I'm blaming my ex, JimB?  Hell no, I'll take the blame.
    I was *stupid* to have ever considered marrying her.
    
    - M

re: .11,

	...and what happens after 30 seconds?

								-davo

    Yes, with a year's counseling, I finally learned the type of men
    NOT to choose.  After a 14 year marriage, the last 2 1/2 of it highly
    abusive, I finally believed that he really DID want to kill me,
    and ended it with excruciating trauma; then I remarried the first
    man who was kind to me AND non-threatening.  This mistake only took
    me four years to end.  By that time, I wanted to quit making the
    same mistakes in picking unhealthy partners, and was willing (eager
    even) to do whatever it took to stop the painful patterns I got
    myself into.  At the end of a year in group therapy, I felt I could
    finally make wise choices in a relationship.  Fortunately, I was
    right, and am quite happy in my third marriage.
    
    I think that there is a very good possibility that successive
    relationships may have a tendency to break up more rapidly; however,
    I think that it may be because the nth time person is not willing
    to waste any more time with a relationship that is going nowhere
    than a person in a relationship for the first time.  On the other
    hand, I also feel that having had more than one relationship can help
    a person to grow and learn from their past mistakes and become more
    tolerant and aware in future experiences.
    
    Barb

    Remarriages are not neccessarily less happy than 1st marriages but
    are less stable due to children from previous marriages and also
    due to others have said, takes less time to decide divorce 2nd time
    around.
    
    Anyway, my ex-husband and I divorced about 5 years ago.  I moved
    about 2000 miles away with the kids and started fresh.  Went to
    college, new job, new everything.  I learned alot about myself,
    about life about kids.  I was about 18 years when he and I met,
    got pregnant, then married.  So we were young, poor, unrealistic,
    not sure of our roles.  It's wierd but we loved each other practicilly
    to death, in the real sense of the word.  After about 3.5 years,
    I thought of death traps for him.  I don't what know what was going
    on his head, but he treated me less than human.  So anyway, in about
    the 4th year, I couln't handle anymore and left.  I ran away so
    to speak.
    
    Anyway, I still have hopes for him and I 5 years after our divorce.
     Crazy!
    
    Yep.  We have learned an incredible amount about life in these past
    years.  He makes coffee in the morning.  Makes me a cup with my
    2 sugars.  He cooks almost all the dinners.  He's nothing like he
    was 10years ago.  I am so glad that neither one of us married during
    these past 5 years.  He was worth waiting for.
    
    Of course, I am more confident now.  I don't have this role of being
    the perfect wife anymore.  I know how to let him be and to let me
    be.  It's way to complex for me to go into detail here.  I'm just
    glad he's around.