Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    I know people that go ice cold when you touch them.. even if you
    are on a fairly familiar basis with them... weird.. I always thought
    I was a fairly non-touchy person but have often told I am anything
    but.. that seems strange to me as I make it a point not to be too
    touchy.. gawd imagine if I did not! whew!
    
    I really do think it has a lot to do with how you have been raised
    and how familiar people in your family were.  My brothers and sister
    are all fairly close and we hug and kiss frequently without too
    much reservations... I have observed families that are quite the
    opposite though.. their loss I say.
    
    I heard a theory once, and I have to agree, that if people and families
    especially would touch more and be open and affectionate with one
    another it would cut drastically on sexual crimes especially in
    incest cases.. The idea being if you are affectionate and loving
    toward someone in an open way you cherish that person and care for
    them and the result being a strong desire to never hurt them or
    violate them in any way...  The theory I heard went into a lot more
    detail and I had to agree strongly with it after hearing it presented. 
                          
    later, gailann

     
      Touching! I'm all for it! 
    I come from a very large family and we are always hugging and
    kissing.I still kiss my father,does'nt bother me.
    I love to touch, and do quite often. Perhaps that's why I left
    my first wife,but that's another story.
     Even being in a management position I still will touch.To me it
    a form of communication.If done on an equal basis you're not
    singling out anyone.
    I use touch for many reasons.
     To make a point.
     Show understanding.
     Commit feelings sexual and non sexual.
    Most of all it's done without really thinking about it,unless
    it's some dynamic women!
    
    I have met some people who will freeze when touched.They won't
    say a thing just freeze up.I just make a note to be very conscience
    of this the next time,and make a very strong effort not to touch!
    
    But most of all you get a very receptive reaction.
    
    Now to find someone who loves to touch and be touched!
    
     

	  Often, touching is regarded as a sign of intimacy.  When the
     insurance salesperson you've never seen before reaches over and pats
     your hand to reassure you that this policy will, indeed, "protect"
     your loved ones, do you get upset?  I do.

	  Some forms of touching seem to be free of this interpretation:
     handshaking, for example.  Acceptance of this is learned behavior:
     watch a child being introduced to someone new to see this in action.
     The child will often refuse to shake hands, even when shaking hands is
     a normal part of greeting known friends.  I have seen this in my son,
     my nephews, and their classmates, so it is either universal or
     regional, but not familial.

	  Other forms of touching seem to be "approved," depending on
     participants.  Females in general seem to be free to hug either other
     females or males, and female relatives seem always to be free to hug
     and kiss.  It is rather rarer to see a father kiss a young son in
     public.  It is extremely rare to see grown male relatives kiss, or
     even hug, in public.  There is a form of "social kiss" (putting cheeks
     together, not involving the lips) that seems to be accepted and,
     indeed, expected by some older (50+ years) women, even from strangers
     first being introduced.  I'm not saying that this is right in any
     prescriptive sense, only that this is what I have observed in friends,
     relatives, co-workers, and strangers on the streets.

	  These specific forms of touching, and a few other specific forms,
     seem to be accepted in the current mainstream US culture.  A male
     giving another male a "social kiss" in the mainstream US culture will
     likely cause some consternation among both onlookers and the second
     male.  [The approved forms reportedly vary with culture:  I have been
     told that in the US male homosexual sub-culture, "social kiss"es are
     acceptable upon introduction, but, say, hugging is not, and that in
     the French mainstream culture, kissing cheeks is acceptable between
     male friends.  Having directly experienced neither of these cultures,
     I cannot but offer hearsay.]

	  Touching seems to be cross-culturally regarded as intimate, with
     certain culture-specific acceptable exceptions;  one can fit in only
     by "going with the flow."

				 Brian Hetrick

    I believe that touching can be an important and very moving expression
    of our feelings.  I do touch people I know well (only those I know
    well, however) and they touch me in return.  However, there are
    people who will interpret *any* touch as sexual in nature.  In these
    situations, even the most generic touch can be misinterpreted,
    resulting in frustration, misunderstandings and actual fights over
    intentions (I know, this has happened to me)
         
    I tend to be very cautious about touching people I don't know well,
    at least until they've become used to me and my personal style of
    communication.  It's sad, in a way, to have to restrain a natural
    expression that is an extension of my emotions, but it's easier
    in the long run.
    
    Mary-Michael

    
    There is a topic on touching in the Womannotes file also, for anyone
    who is interested in hearing what people had to say there.
    
    I hug and kiss my 12 yr. old daughter and she still hugs me back.
     But, other than her I only really feel comfortable touching in
    romantic situations or hugging my cats.  I feel really weird about
    touching another woman and frankly seldom have the desire to touch
    people.  (I'm *not* talking about sex here.  I think having a sex
    drive is quite different from other types of touching.)
    
    I tend to feel distrustful and threatened if a strange person attempts
    to touch me, other than shaking hands.  Maybe it's partially because
    most other adults are bigger than me.  I really can't understand
    you people who want to touch other people all the time?  Why do
    you want to?  
    
    I think people have to remember that they have to respect the rights
    of others.  Nobody has the right to touch anybody who doesn't want
    them to.  On the other hand, a quick hug between consenting adults
    is up to them.
    
    Lorna
    

    My family was and is very distant in exchanging physical touch.
    I've only been able to hug my mother in recent years, and I don't
    dare approach dad.
    
    But, and maybe its because of all that idiot sensitivity stuff I
    got into a few years ago, I frequently touch in social situations,
    sometimes in business, male or female.  Often I get the vibes that
    such things are not welcome, and I obey.  Us touchers quickly become
    astute observers of body language.  Beyond that, my experience is
    similar to the other "toucher", was it .3?  Normally, when I do
    this, it is because I want to express a point that has some feeling
    content, and this is my way of doing so.  I am only vaguely aware
    that I'm doing it.  Gee, I've communicated some nice feelings with
    a touch...

    
    	Ah Touching....How *important* it is to the proper development
    of the Human Animal. Within our very structure, exist behavorial
    routines that make use of *touch* - and lots of it! Violate or
    eliminate this intrinsic behavior pattern during the growing years,
    and you've certainly upset the whole system. Imagine the result
    of never holding or playing with your child -
    
    	Grooming is a very important social function within the lower
    primate groups. To me (anyway), its obvious that *we* posess the
    same "order from within", but, because we are reasonable beings,
    we (as usual) "think we know" whats best - and muck up everything.
    Now *I'm* the product of lies my parents and someone before them,
    believed.
    
    	I can remember while back in school, I would choose a "beauty
    salon" for a haircut. How *wonderful* it felt to have a woman "fuss"
    over me for 45 mins or so. I recall feeling that "my feet were back
    on the ground", that I "found orientation", ect - besides getting
    a good haircut!                                        
    
    	"A lonely man (at least once in my life)"
    
    	Joe
    

    Research has suggested that everyone would be happier and feel better
    about themselves if each of us where to get four hugs a day.  Well,
    since I am considered a toucher, I think this theory sounds alright
    to me and I even try to practice it on my family.  My family has
    always been touchers to each other.  I never thought we were any
    different than any other people.  
    
    Don't misunderstand what I am asking.  I don't touch just anyone,
    but someone I am involved in and feel comfortable with.  And for
    them to send out vibs that say "look, look but don't touch" has
    really taken some getting use.  I initially felt this was "their"
    problem, but it became our problem.  Or more directly, it has caused
    me to look at what is really going on with me.  
    
    I still believe touching, when done with proper intend and
    consciousness, is one of the best forms of showing you care about
    that person.   It should be a form of non verbal communication without
    pressure or intimidation, at least that is my usual intend.

    And again:
      If we all could touch and hug as a natural everyday occurrence
    you wouldn't have half the fustrated angry people running around
    today.
      I hug and hold all members of my family and others to some degree.
    
    I would be a very empty person if I couldn't express my feelings
    in an open manner.
    
    I don't touch anyone unless I know them,but who does anyway.
    
    There would be a lot less misunderstanding and warring if people
    weren't so damn afraid to express their emotions.And it doesn't
    have to be taken as sexual either.It's like saying I understand
    you,and I like you.
    
    
    Cal.
    
    

    Very interesting - most of the males talk about "touching" here
    and most of the females talk about "being touched".
    
    That illustrates perfectly a strong but subtle interpretation of
    non-sexual touching in our culture; that status is probably the single 
    most important factor in deciding who touches whom and when.  Would you
    touch your new boss first?  Could he touch you?  If the boss were
    a woman would she be more likely or less likely to touch you?  Would
    you touch an underling?  What if he touched you?  What if SHE did?
    
    I basically don't touch people with whom I am not interested in being 
    intimate, and I feel either subtely patronized or propositioned when I 
    am touched.  I assume we are not talking about being physically demon-
    strative with a romantic partner, but rather about touch occurring as 
    a routine part of human interaction.  
    
    I'm with the other noter who'd like to know why you touchers out
    there even want to touch casual acquaintences and/or co-workers.
    I have no desire to communicate affection to any save one or two,
    and I don't like others trying to personalize a casual encounter
    by touching me.  When salesmen try to invoke my trust with touch,
    they learn quickly that this calculated ploy is pretty transparent.
    Most all touching, other than that used to convey genuine affection,
    is a form of persuasion of some sort - a kind of diversionary tactic,
    and to avoid adding this extra factor to a casual encounter, my vibes
    are always "talk, but don't touch".  Most don't touch.  
    
    For the record, my immediate family was not openly demonstrative,
    but my 'extended' one, rich with Italians, was and still is, and I
    have no problem hugging or touching friends of either sex.  Because
    I have affection for them, the touch comes naturally.  With others,
    it does not.
                                     
    Sandy
    
    

    Being a Native New Yorker... I am repulsed by the touch of someone
    I do not know.

    

	My family was very much a non-touching family, and (presumably
	as a result) I am very uncomfortable about being touched by
	someone I don't know well. But once I get close to someone
	(emotionally) I can't get enough touching!
	
	Mike

        My family (siblings and parents) are of the "cold New England"
        breed--not much hugging or casual touching or explicit
        expressions of the really deep affection that is there. These
        days my social group and family (wife and children) on the other
        hand are of the "touchy feely" type. I'm not sure where it came
        from. Some time around college, the very physical person inside
        me burst out. 
        
        Actually it is sort of spreading back to my siblings. My sister
        and I seem to be growing a bit closer, and she's a moderately
        demonstrative type, too. My brother and I seem to have a bit of
        a strained relationship, and one of the things I find myself
        doing in trying to repair it is touching him positively and
        expressing my affection for him more explicitly. 
        
        At work I feel a good deal of camaraderie around the group. We're
        friends as well as coworkers, and I find that I'm not as free or
        physical with them as with my own social circle, but not nearly
        as constrained as around strangers or even around my parents and
        siblings several years back.
        
        Of course, every now and then I encounter people who are
        comfortable with touching, and as soon as I know it, I'm much
        more careful to restrain myself around them. The problem I
        mentioned in womannotes is that a significant number of women
        don't let on that it bothers them, so you have to be very
        observant, or actually talk about it with each one.
        
        JimB. 

Touching...


I think it's too bad we're so up-tight about touching/hugging, especially the
"it's okay to hug a man, but not a woman or the reverse" stuff.  There's
significant research showing that as infants we associate touch with comfort
and safety. Infants deprived of touch become reclusive, paranoid and fail to
thrive.  Some of that must be true for us as adults. 

It was very disappointing (but understandable) that the Boston Globe (I think)
ran a story about the fact that orientation for public school teachers this
year will include stern warnings to teachers to avoid ALL manner of physical
contact with students.  As a former teacher I see this warning as a sad sign of
the times.  As a parent I know the the warning is necessary, but it's sad that
it seems so difficult for us to make peace with this basic instinct. 

Mark

    I too am one of the "touchy" people - I flinch if someone touches
    me, other than someone I feel very close to.  I didn't get much
    hugging when I grew up, as my mother was usually holding down two
    jobs just to keep our family going, and I had no father around.
    I sometimes think that the lack of affection as a child has caused
    this "desire to be liked" in me - I often seek out affection and
    approval.  I wish I was more comfortable with hugging and touching.
    
    Because of this, I am determined that my son, Tommy, won't lack
    for affection, ESPECIALLY from his daddy.  Tom and I hug a lot,
    and it feels GOOD (especially as he's all I've got, nowadays).
    I think Tom is better for it too - I'm not one of these men who 
    think fathers shouldn't hug their sons.
    
    					Steve

    
    	Why would anyone want to touch, especially someone they didnt
    know (dear God!)? Hmmmmmmmm. I had always thought that it was because
    someone was considered *another person* - with feelings and everything
    else - just like you. 
    
    	Maybe you folks with hangups or if your from "the city" have
    been conditioned to look at others as something else besides *another
    person* - Boy, I'd take a hard look at that!                
    
    	Gee, I was touched physically *three* times by "strangers"
    since I wrote -.9. I didnt find myself jumping too far. One touch
    meant "Its OK" another "dont worry" and another meant "thank you".
    Very easy to understand...
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    re:  .-1 
    
    But some take it too far.  For example, there are men who feel the
    need to kiss goodbye to all the women they meet and touch them too.  And
    many women do not like this behavior.  If you ask the men about it,
    they say its the women's problem if they don't like it... 
    I can see why people don't like essentially strangers touching and
    kissing them (men don't have this problem as much).
        
    I guess its hard to draw the line.  I agree with the others, better
    safe than sorry.  I only get physical with people I am close to - hugs
    and so forth. Then, it is a real expression of affection that can
    not be misinterpretted. 
                                                       

    Re .19
    
    It's not that I misinterpret touches from other people - as I
    said, it's just the way I grew up that I find that kind of touching
    disturbing, especially if it's someone I DON'T feel close to
    (such as salesmen, etc.!)  A few months ago, a friend (male)
    hugged me when he learned about the grief I had been experiencing.
    I knew he meant it to be comforting, and didn't misinterpret it
    at all, but it still bothered me - mainly because I'm just not
    used to it.
    
    The world would be a better place if we could accept and give
    comforting touches freely.  Unfortunately....
    
    				Steve

    Isn't it interesting how this turned into 

	How_Men_Feel_When_They_Are_Touched vs.				
        How_Women_Feel_WHen_They_are_Touched ?

    

    Yes, it is interesting how this is turning into how each sex feels
    to be touched.
    
    But I believe there is a difference in how the sexes define and
    feel about touching.  
    
    Men had to be men at an early age.  No crying or acting wimpy and
    touching in the form of fighting or playing sports and even to a
    point where little boys don't want their friends to see mommy kissing
    them.
    
    Women are the nurturers.  Hugs and kisses are a sign of comfort
    and safety.  I love to be hugged as much as to hug with people I
    care about.  The strangest problem is when I see someone who I care
    about but may not be a real close friend, the hesitation between
    us.  Do we hug and say, it's really nice to see you, or shake hands
    in a respectable social manner, or is a smile enough?
    
    Could it be because of the differences in how we were socialized
    as men and women, why so many people have a problem with their feelings
    and deciding if they should be the sex they are.  Why women want
    women lovers and men want men?  Could it be they are just confused
    about the roles they are suppose to play?

    Now, let me clarify here.  Just because I'm a woman, I'm not
    going to go out and kiss the world!  When I talk about being
    "touched" I mean "touched" not "kissed."  Kissing in my book
    is different.  I don't enjoy being randomly kissed by people
    I don't know terribly well.  I find that rather repulsive.
    However, if someone who knows of my troubles sympathizes and
    gives me a hug, that's fine.  I don't mean that J. Random Human
    can hug me on the street, either.  Touching is an intimate gesture.
    It can comfort or emphathize.  It's also not appropriate for every
    situation.  It's use is as much a matter of tact as saying the
    "appropriate words."  I like people. I feel comfortable with them.
    If they brush up against me on the street accidently, I'm not going
    to jump three feet.  But I'm going to be sure I understand their
    situation and feelings before I touch.  If I'm trying to make them
    feel better, leaving them feeling, as Steve said, "uncomfortable"
    doesn't do either party any good.
    
    Mary-Michael

    I don't mind being touched as long as the following 
    phrases do NOT follow:

    "Where's your wallet ?"  Heard from behind me in Central Park.
    "How  do  you  like  that  ?"  Heard from a hooker whilst holding
				    various parts of my body (In the
				    STREET!).
    ...

    Try this one on for size...
    
    	I remember reading in some mag (and no, it wasn't the Nat'l
    Enquirer) somewhere, and curse me for not remembering which one
    it was, and the expert on the spot had made a comment about some
    people...let's just say for the sake of argument that we are talking
    about members of the opposite sex.  Here's the scenario:
    
    	You're walking up the hall and see a friend of yours...a MOOS.
   (MOOS = member of opposite sex)  You walk up to him/her, start talking,
    generally just chatting, and you go to touch him/her in a casual
    way...maybe on the shoulder, maybe on the arm...it doesn't matter.
    
    Experts view:
    
    	"You are an insecure person when it comes to members of the
    opposite sex."
    
    God, I wish I kept a copy of that, but alas...I didn't.  I actually
    read this.  Frankly, it scared me a bit.  For, yes...I am a toucher.
        
         (AAAAAAAAAGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!  Get him AWAY from me!)
       
    
    Someone please tell me that this is a bunchacrap......
    
    					OO
    					--          Phil

re: .29,

	...Slap him silly Suzanne, it's the only hope for the both of you
    when the "brute" gets brought out.  If this doesn't work, then run like
    hell!  Hopefully, after taking a nice long COLD shower, the guy will
    come to his senses and appologize.  He would probably even respect you 
    for it later (to the point of even thanking you), but just make sure you
    slap him gently enough to get the point across, and not so hard that it
    really hurts him physically.

	Gee, I never thought I'd recommend something like this, I must be
    looking out for little Sis!

							-davo

re: .31,

	I suppose you're right, if it's time to start slapping, then it
    may be too late (for that guy anyway).  Although I'd think it would've
    been the thing to do in another time warp (in the past).

							-davo

    p.s.  Maybe I've been watching too many old movies, but it seems like
	there's something about a little slap that might say "I want this
	relationship to work, but not on these terms", whereas simply ruling
	out seeing the person again may be kind-of a cop-out?

    re: myself
    
    	Maybe I should rephrase my earlier statement...If I remember
    correctly, the "expert" was talking about insecurites (maybe sexual)
    in yourself (if you were the toucher).  I just wish I had the article.
    I am not making this up!  It could have been a "macho" type mag.
    It might have been GQ, I'm not sure, it was so long ago.  This is
    just what I remember, I am not endorsing this, nor am  I in agreement
    with it.  In fact, I, being a devout toucher, cannot agree with
    it at all.  If I did, I couldn't iamgine what I would do with myself.
    
    				OO
    				\/
    
    						Phil
    

    That wasn't touching that was major violation of your personal space!!
    
    I'm talking about innocent caring and touching.  Maybe we should
    go into a discussion on when is it the right time to touch and how.
    
    

    If I were the offender in a situation such as Suzanne describes,
    I'd prefer a slap, or at least a firm "Please don't!" to the
    alternative of having her keep her discomfort inside.  Sometimes
    we give out mixed signals, and few of us are mind-readers, so
    we can make mistakes.
    
    It's when one lets a mistake go, and it eats away at what could
    otherwise be a good relationship, that it's really sad.
    
    					Steve

        But it is really hard to blaim "pouncing" on somebody in a
        sexual way on poor communications. It is ALWAYS a bad idea to
        make sudden physical moves on someone you aren't really close
        to. "Pouncing" an SO is moderately safe. "Pouncing" someone
        you've never had intimate physical contact with is almost
        inneviatble foolish. If you don't know where you stand, act
        tentatively, and be prepaired to back off if your approach
        isn't appreciated.
        
        JimB. 

    Re .36:
        Yep, I agree that "pouncing" in such circumstances is
    a protocol violation.
    				Steve

    Re: last several...
    
    	I will agree that "pouncing" is not a good idea, but just as
    I expect not to slap a woman, I wouldn't expect to be slapped in
    return.  A firm "NO", "Please Don't", or firm push is acceptable.
    A slap is much more of a physical affront and in an entirely different
    category.  I would guess that in certain cases, a slap might even
    be inviting violence from the other person.
    
    	A slap is for when you've tried to fight the scum off politely,
    and he still won't take a hint.  And then I would only recommend
    it if you're sure you aren't likely to provoke violence.
    
    	For what it's worth - if I got mildly out of line and were slapped
    for it - the date ends immediately, and the relationship, permanently,
    right then & there. period. And any woman who tolerates being hit
    in a relationship is out of her mind.
    
    				--Doug

    
    
    Regarding 51.39
    
    
                      WOW!
    
    
    Later Cal.
    

    Does a discussion on touching automatically lead to a discussion
    on violence?  We have gotten into slapping, when I am talking about
    the totally opposite spectrum.
    
    Now backrubs brings up an interesting topic.  I've found that to
    be a way of easing into a more intimate atmosphere without causing
    alot of misunderstood messages.  Although, several backrubs that
    I have started, have caused the evening to take on a new tone...

    re: massage
           Now this is truely the *ART* of touching
    
    after reading all the replies to this topic I wonder if a better
    heading would have been "The intention of touching"..
    
    reguarding intentions..   I touch and enjoy being touched as a sign
    of acceptance, appreciation, understanding, etc.    I resent being
    touched as a form of proving a point or self gain and especially
    by someone who is too drunk to stand up. 
                                           
    As an Art....  I love to give as well as receive massages and there
    is indeed an *ART* involved and as with all arts there are some
    basic rules to be observed. Always use a firm steady motion, always
    spend equal time on all areas to be massaged and always warm any
    oils or lotions before aplication. The rest is freestyle...
      
    Sauna_Rat

        If you resent your wife for being "manipulated" a romantic
        dinner via a romantic dinner and a new nighty, even after being
        kneed in the groin, you've got a definite problem. Similarly, if
        you resent a husband who won't have sexual intercourse after
        being kneed in the groin, you too have severe difficulties.
        
        There are lots of ways to enjoy a romantic dinner and a wife in
        a new nighty that don't involve straining the injured area too
        much. Similarly, there are pleanty of ways to enjoy the presence
        and attentions of a husband who finds certain acts out of the
        question due to an injury.
        
        That in my book was not an example of what I meant but
        "pouncing". I was talking about agression, not pesuassion. I was
        talking about sudden sexual physical contact skipping over a
        large range of intermediate steps. The kind of thing that had
        been talked about in the earlier note, where suddenly a casual
        discussion turns very heavy and very physical (not necessrily
        violent, just sexual). I would expect this to involve lunging,
        grabbing, and the like. (Running for home base before you'd
        gotten to first, to twist an old metaphore.)
        
        Such "pouncing" is dangerous because unless you have a solid
        relationship you can't count on the other person interpretting
        correctly and responding appropriately. They may be scared--too
        scared to say no. They may be sufficiently scared to respond
        with physical violence, on the other hand. They may not
        understand that you can take no for an answer. They may feel
        that if they say "no" you will feel they are rejecting you and
        not the particular approach or the moment. 
        
        Spouses should be able to say "not now", or "not like that" and
        have it understood to mean "not now" or "not like that" and not
        "not with you". If they can't they've lost already. Marriage
        must be built on trust. If you both trust each other, you can
        occasionally be a little wilder. If there is trust you can
        afford to do something that may not turn out quite right.
        
        Of course there's still some danger in pouncing. If the wife
        above pounced rather than seduced the injured husband, she ran a
        real danger of pouncing the injured part of the anatomy and
        furthering the damage. Again, spouses should be able to trust
        each other enough that once he regained consciousness he would
        realize that she was just being playful and hadn't realized that
        her fingers had been preceded by a knee.
        
        JimB.

    There are a few previous replys that mention geographical location as a
    reason for there attitude regarding "touching"  One mentioned New
    England. 
    
    I married a girl from PA (outside of Allentown), the majority of people
    in that area are very, very outgoing.  Touching is a major part of this
    "outgoing".  I am from Quincy MA, lived there all my life and most
    people around here are COLD.  If I don't hug my wife, or put an arm
    around her she thinks I'm mad at her! I noticed this when we were
    dating.  She though I didn't like her because I did not extend a hand
    when I asked how she was doing or put an arm around her in public
    (different topic, GEOGRAPHICAL SOCIAL NORMS). If I extended a hand to
    any girl I went out with from around here I don't want to think of what
    might have happened!  Most people around the Boston area are too tied
    up in "it has to be done yesterday" way of life and I guess feel
    threatened by a tap on the shoulder when someone asks how they are
    doing.  "Who me....why do you want to know....do you want my job....".
    My parents didn't hug much,  nither did my three sisters. 
    
    	I told my wife I will have to get used to walking by and at
    least touching her as I go by.  I think she sees it as a sign of
    my acknoleging (<-spelling) her existance.  I am getting better
    I just have to remember where I am!

	Alot of people will get upset wondering why you "violated there
    space" thinking there had to be a reason, it could not have been
    just to touch me.  Or the old "What did they stick to my back, a
    'Kick me HARD' sign".
    
    	My wife NEEDS to be touched by me (or someone in her family)
    I guess it makes her feel "at home".  
        
    	As for TOUCHING being an art, oh ya it is a definate art, one that
    should be mastered, or at least understood, by all. If done right it
    can make someone feel anywhere from "welcome" to "GREAT" but if done
    wrong a person may feel "uneasy" or even "violated". 


    Just another viewpoint
    mac
    
    PS I don't play football!

    Just possibly......
    
    This is the are of "accepting touch"
    
    I believe that all the touching I recieve has a definite effect
    - which in the long run - is determined by me!
    
    If I want it to be friendly, comforting, sexual, etc., I am the
    one who allows to accept it that way.  
    
    So, I guess it would have the same effect on an unenjoyable/unwanted
    touch.  (you are the one who makes the touch uncomfortable - not
    the toucher)
    
    I have to admit though, this can only go so far.  Some touchers
    really *DO* know how to *TOUCH*.
    
    

    sorry about the spelling!
    

    Re .46, "you are the one who makes the touch uncomfortable not the
    toucher".  What a strange way of looking at this issue.  I'd certainly
    hate to see your concept applied to rape or child molesting.  I
    realize that's (hopefully) carrying your view much further than
    you intended, but maybe if you look at it in that light you can
    see why I think you're wrong.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I doubt that I could have worded it any better!!  You expressed
    my sentiments EXACTLY!!
    
    					Joe

    
    	One way I can think of to improve your skills as an artist_in_touch
    is to get yourself a cat. Most felines I've known are affectionate
    animals and respond to a loving touch in a positive way. You can
    touch her on top of her head (where she cannot reach very well),
    around her soft ears, the back of her head, her neck, shoulders
    and chin. Make sure that it is a *loving* touch, cause if your rough
    with her or your mind is on something else, she'll know and you'll
    find out real quick.
    	
    	A bit of a context switch, but I cant believe that these toy
    manufacturers claim that "someday electronic devices with internal
    microprocessors ("Teddy Ruxpin") will substitute for real animals
    as pets" What a load of S**t. I'd like to see any electronic device
    "know" how I'm feeling when I get home. I'd hate to see the results
    of someone growing up with a fake pet stuffed with random logic-
    
    	Joe Jas
    

     Different groups touching.
    
    Here's one for you. for many years I was associated with a motorcycle
    group.A very large group of "Brothers", and from time to time
    we'd meet on one thing or another. Whenever we met there was always
    a lot of hugging and back slapping and so on. Some of it was to
    set the other at ease so to speak but mostly to say "hey I like
    you and miss you..There was never anything sexual in it at all
    But I guess to an outsider it must have looked very strange.
     My brothers were from all over the country and to tell you the
    truth it never mattered where they were from. Just a natural
    event without much thought I guess.
     
    Does all this fit? Who can say, but from what I've seen so far
    If it feels good to both parties do it!
    
    Later
    
    Cal.
    

re: -1,

>    If it feels good to both parties do it!

	Boy does this hit it right on the nose!  The question is: How can
    a person figure out when and if it is going to "feel good" to both parties?
    Turn on the E.S.P. switches...

								-davo

    
    Yo Davo:
    
     E.S.P. why not, but as a toucher from way back and a firm (no pun
    intended)touchee I can sense a receptiveness.
     Other then that I can't tell you much more,you just know without
    thinking.
    
    Cal.
    

    PIC ^Z^Z(1+1+1+1+1)  - A touchy subject

    I don't usually think about the form of touching between people I
    work with or associate with except today when a co-worker placed her
    hands on my sholders.  It just happened to strike me since I've, as
    of late, become involved with this note conference.  Must be having
    an effect on me.

    E.S.P?  I guess I've been missing out on that form of communication.
    Sure could use some - Any one have any to spare?

    When I think of touching I usually associate it between two
    people who might be dating or who are married.  A very strong
    form of communication.

    To touch or not to touch?  Will I be taken the wrong way?
    Do I dare show any of my feelings?  Should I take a chance?
    
    I have always felt that touching is a form of
    communciation, just like eye contact and I've always been receiptive
    to both, but knowing when and/or if the other person your with feels
    the same has puzzeled me to no end.  I guess some people can tell and
    some just can't. I most always let the other person touch me first.
    It's kind of like the first date or the first dance, or entering my
    first note into this conference.  Makes me about as nervous as ...
    After the contact has been made then I settle down and feel much more
    at ease.  I've been sitting here trying to think of when I felt
    repulsed by being touched and after 10 minutes, I can't.

    Keep to the sun,
    Lee

    Gee, I've been trying to figure out how I almost always know whether
    a person is comfortable being touched. Durned if I can come up with
    an answer much better than ESP.
    
    I guess what I do is read body language very well. Rarely do I not
    get an initial impression on how at ease someone is. First clue
    is probably how much personal space they appear to need. Posture
    and muscle tone and eye contact and probably a couple thousand more
    subtle clues are there to be seen and understood. I have been told
    I pick up on things more clearly than other people. I have no idea
    how to tell someone else what I do to sense this.
    
    I know I have a great degree of empathy which possibly stems from
    how I "see" what it is that someone else needs emotionally.
    
    Any other theories on this?
    
    Tamzen

	I've always been kind-of a spaz when it comes to touching, it's
    so much easier to just clam-up and avoid confrontations.  My father
    has always patted me on the back and we all hugged each other as a
    family, but touching still "interrupts" my train of thought at times.

	I've found that one way to get therapy for the spazes is to go
    shopping at Spags or Quincy Market.  After saying "excuse me" for the
    150th time, your nervous system finally gives up and goes numb to the
    whole thing.

							-davo

    
    
    
    
              re. 51.59
    
    
                      What ????
    
    
    Sorry,
    
    Cal.
    

    It's interesting to note that different types to responses here
    between the "pro-touchers" and the "anti-touchers". The former
    seem to be generally promoting the idea of touching between
    friends or other close acquaintances, while the latter seem to
    be countering the pro arguments with expressions of distaste
    for touching between strangers. Talk about a lack of communica-
    tion!
    
    I'm a "pro-toucher". My background...
    
    My family has never been particularly affectionate. My parents
    were never particularly affectionate with one another, at least
    in front of us kids (they also had separate bedrooms), and none
    of us kids got along that well with any of the others. That I
    can recall, I was the only one of us kids that hugged and kissed
    my mother or my father (the latter only when I was off to bed).
    There wasn't any touching in my extended family, either, other
    than the "usual" hug and peck from aunts, and so on.
    
    As I grew up, touching was more or less thought of as an intimate,
    proto-sexual activity, and thus never happened between just
    friends. As with Tamzen, I found science fiction fandom to be
    much more open in this regard. Hugs were given and recieved among
    friends with no sexual connotation to them, though in those early
    days of my sf fan activities, it was still pretty much (though
    not totally) restricted to opposite-sex members.
    
    On the other hand, in the late 70's, I started to get involved
    with sf fandom in Minneapolis, where people were very much into
    hugging as an expression of even casual friendship. Folks would
    greet each other with hugs, say goodbye with hugs, give backrubs
    at the drop of a hat, etc. And it wasn't bound at all by the sex
    of the participants. It was exhilirating.
    
    Now, I don't tend to touch co-workers (few of whom have really
    been friends, as opposed to acquaintances) or other people with
    whom the relationship is primarily professional. And I certainly
    don't tend to touch people who are strangers, or I'm meeting for
    the first time, though in the latter case, if they initiate the
    hugs, I don't mind. but amongst friends, even casual friends, a
    hug. a light touch on the arm or back, and sometimes even a light
    kiss (between opposite sexes), is not uncommon.
    
    To answer the question from a couple of non-touchers: Why do I
    feel the need to touch other people? I don't --- *need* that is.
    I just want to. It's friendly, it's comforting. The way I look
    at it, kissing & petting & such is for lovers, and handshakes are
    for strangers. For friends, hugging is a great middle ground.
    
    --- jerry

    re -1
    
    Hugging is great middle ground.  I like that, Jerry..
    
    I'm a toucher, I also like to be touched.  In .6 the author can't
    understand why people want to be touched - I can't understand why
    peoplef wouldn't want it.  I'm talking touch here - not petting,
    pouncing, etc.  
    
    I learned touching early... I'm Greek - my family touches and it
    just sort of "caught" with me.  A touch says so much more to me
    than words.  It says I'm ok, it says the other person is there and
    cares... at times I've drawn strength from the hug I've received.
    I give hugs to men and I give hugs to women - since there is no
    hidden motive in my hugs, what does it matter?
    
    Recently, some nice things happened for me at work.  At a picnic
    we had, my coworkers hugged me in congratulations.  That said they
    were happy for me better than any words could have ever come close
    to saying.  Nothing threatening, nothing sexual, just mutual hugs.

    re:  .61
    
    Great observation about pro and anti touching.  I was thinking that
    myself.  I do believe hugs are a great middle ground. 

I had an interesting experience with a woman once. We were going out on our
first date (it happened to be my birthday as well), and I was to come over to
her condo for dinner, and just meet her and talk and say hello. We had never
seen each other, but had sent a fair amount of mail during the previous week or
so. 

When I rang the doorbell, she opened it up, and as I stepped in, she gave me a
simple little kiss. I was a little surprized, as we didn't really even know each
other, but figured it was a nice greeting, I guess. 

We had a nice dinner, she was very thoughtful and even had a little birthday
present and a card for me. We just talked for several hours, and then we decided
it was late and I should get going. So, on the way out, I gave her a little kiss
too, as I had a pleasent time myself. 

Later, I asked her for another date, and I was really never able to get together
with her again for a "date". However, we still send mail messages, and have
become good friends, and I have gone out to lunch with her several times. 

Soon I found out why we never had another "date"; she said she was scared to
death when I kissed her goodnight! I was surprized; after all, I figured if she
started the night out with a simple kiss, I could return one at the end. [BTW:
we had no physical contact during the evening, with the exception of these two
kisses]. And, being the kind, gentle, non-agressive person I think I am, I was
quite puzzled. But, in time, I began to understand her feelings, and why each
kiss was different. 

The first was a "happy birthday" kiss she said, and the second (mine) made her
scared, and afraid, and thinking we were going to get involved in a serious
relationship and she wasn't ready. Of course that was not my intent when I
kissed her. 

I just found the contrast interesting. 

    Apart from physical needs, the most prevalent psychological effect
    of isolation a need for physical contact/touch.  Babies will supposedly
    die if not touched/held.  While issues about the boundaries of sexual
    and non-sexual touching may be more relevant in a day-to-day basis,
    I wonder if one can understand "the art of touching" without focusing
    on the basic/primal need that touching meets.

    
    When I worked in a hospital I found out very quickly the power of
    a simple touch.  It is a basic need for us all to have the warmth
    that a simple hand or hug can give.  Stop and hold an old person's
    hand that has been parked in their chair in the corridor and just
    see what that response it.. they will hold your hand back like they
    want you to never let go.. it is enough to bring tears to your eyes..
    Stroke someone's arm in a soothing manner while a doctor is poking
    and prodding at them and see if it does not bring an ounce at least
    of comfort to have removed some of the impersonal prodding that
    is going on.  Push back someone's hair that does not have much mobility
    and look into their face while you are talking to them and see the
    comfort first hand that your are lending. 
    
    When we are sick in mind, body or spirit we are a very venerable
    species... we let people comfort us when otherwise we would shun
    them.. it shows us how human we are and the very real need we have
    for others..  Too bad we can't be just a little more open sometimes
    when we are well also.
    
    later, gailann
    

    re .66 - experience in the hospital with old people
    
    That is a pair of neat insights into touching - First, that it is
    needed more when a person is sick or hurt, and, second, that it
    seems to be needed more when a person is old.  I would like to
    generalize the second insight to be old or young.  
    
    Hugging my 82 year old aunt or my 4 year old nephew certainly seems
    safer than hugging my brother-in-law or a collegue at work, and
    the resulting stroked feeling is the same for me.

    
    
    	O.K. I'll jump in on this note and give me 2 cents worth.
    	I was brought up in a family that did not give alot of hugs/
    	kisses, but I knew I was loved.  I think I gave more hugs/kisses
    	to my children than I received.  When I'm feeling down, I love/
    	need my husband to give me a hug, I feel better.  When I feel
    	up I love to give hugs.  I greet friends I haven't seen in awhile
    	with hugs, and say a Good Bye with a hug.  I feel good and I
    	think they do too.  I love them, I show it!
    
    	It's been proven in retirement homes etc.  when they bring a
    	dog/cat to visit these old folks that the petting and touching
    	is good for all!
    
    	I worked for a boss who had come from Cuba when he was a child.
    	He was a toucher.  What I mean is that he let me know he cared
    	as a friend/boss about me.  I have never worked for such a
    	wonderful person as he was.  The touch on the shoulder,arm was
    	his way of acknowleding that I did good and he cared.  He was
    	a wonderful family man and gave lots of hugs and kisses to his
    	young sons.
    
    	I personally feel that those who don't like to be touched are
    	missing out.  I'll take a hugger any time.
    

	It is certainly amazing for a country supposedly so advanced
	and enlighted that we have such touching hangups, myself included.
	Also we have these cases of abuse, particularly child abuse that
	makes one ver carefull. If you were working in a child-care center
	dare to hug a child not your own?? In addition we have the 
	therapist-patient cases of abuse and so touching seems to be a
	no-no. I would love to hug my therapist for the warmth I feel
	is missing.

Odd...

I would not have my children in a child care if the people there didn't hug
them...

I would not go to a 'therapist' whom I felt I could not touch, or hug if the
need arose...

I guess I'm just not paranoid...

Jim. 

    I was in a full body cast for almost a year.  The worst part of
    the whole ordeal for me was, when I held my children I couldn't
    feel them against my body.  It was terrible!  I now appreciate hugs.
    I hug everyone I feel especially close to.  It is a shame that todays
    society seems to have lost that.
    

In a full body cast for a year ?  That sounds terrible!  What happened?
Was it a car accident ?

Not being able to feel your kids hug you -- that is a concept I never
considered.  I've sometimes imagined what a cast would be like but I never
thought of that particular problem.

I assume you're out of cast and hugging again ??

/Eric

    No...it wasn't an accident.  I had back surgery.  It was "supposed
    to be" a one time surgery but I had to have it done 3 times!  The
    first two I had to wear the body cast for 9 months each time.
    Believe me, now I hug as much as possible.
    What a strange society we live in.  I hug close friends all the
    time (even if they're female).  Women hugging women and men hugging
    men always get strange looks.  But...I've never been one to care
    what others think.  I'm going to keep hugging as long as I have
    arms!!!
    

    re.73
    you are lucky that you can be that way.
    i am not a person that can hug or be hugged easily.the simple fact
    is (i think) i dont trust very easily(male or female)
    i remember learning or hearing about something called personal zones.
    if i dont know you very well,you WILL stay at least an arms lenghts
    away.i have actually gone across a room this way-the person talking
    to me taking a step closer to me and me tasking a step backwards.
    if someone that i dont know very well hugs me,i really do wonder
    what they want,what did i do,or i dont deserve this,i havent done
    anything to earn it.

RE: -.1

"If someone that I dont know very well hugs me, I really do wonder what they
want, what did I do, or I don't deserve this, I haven't done anything to earn
it." 
    
One of the biggest turning points in my life was in college, when a woman I had
just met briefly the week before greeted me with a hug unexpectedly. I went
through the same kind of thoughts as above. 

Somebody does not *have to* want something from you to want to hug you; you
don't *have to* do anything to deserve a hug.  Why limit yourself and others to
love from those who want something from you or those who have done something to
deserve your love; or love for those you want something from or those who have
done something to deserve your love?

It sounds pretty silly when you look at it that way, doesn't it?

Jim.

    Square dancing involves a good deal of hand holding, arm turning,
    and occasionally our caller says "Now Hug your *corner*! THIS is
    the person you will turn! Now you can't forget someone you just
    HUGGED can you?" And if he sees some arms-length, eyes-down-modesty hug
    he will say "Hug'm again!"  
    
    rmm 

    Something a little different ....
    
    Research has shown that people do generally feel closer when a
    touch is a part of the communication between two people and that
    this touch does not have to be overt and intentional, but can be
    as simple as touching fingers when exchanging money in a store ..
    often a purely accidental act.
    
    Usually when people touch like that they aren't even conscious of
    the touch, but on the other hand are influenced by it and often
    warmer one to the other.
    
    stuart
    

    TOUCHING
    
    	I agree that people are too paranoid when it comes to touching,
    it shows affection (and we can't have that in todays society.-"what's the
    story there").  -FC
    
    
    
    
    
     

    I know this is an old note, but, some interesting things have happened
    with me on touching.
    
    I am a toucher, love being touched, but only with people I know.
    Workmates, friends, family.  I always touch an arm when speaking
    to people.  Nobody at work has a problem, nor do my family or friends.
    But, I am very wary of people who give out *don't touch me* signals.
    
    I used to go to gym with a nice guy.  His marriage was on the
    downslide and both being Scorpio's we were always on the same
    wavelength.  Now, as happens over a couple of years of coming into
    work at 5.30am and working out and swimming and spa-ing together,
    you get closer.  One day in the car we were talking and I touched
    his forearm - he must have jumped about three feet and just kept
    pulling away.  It also happened to be when I was at a low selfesteem
    period and it set me back for months.  I found it real hard to
    communicate with anybody for quite some time and that being my business
    I was really up the creek without a paddle.
     
    Needless to say I got back on track and now I just do what comes
    naturally.  If I touch and I'm not aware nobody says anything, probably
    'cause I'm such an up front person anyway.  I notice myself touching
    a salesperson who has been helpful - still just a touch on the forearm,
    or my favourite restaurant, etc.  I have since found out that it
    is a sign that you need some hugging or contact generally.  Couldn't
    be more correct.  I always thought when I raced out for some chocolate
    that was a sign of a desperate need for a hug.  
                                                 
    Next time somebody runs into you in the supermarket you'll know
    what they need... (^;                        
    
    But it took a long time after my marriage finished to get to the
    touching stage.  I won't lose that again....
    
    
    ..dale
                                                 
                                                 

            re:.79 (Dale Mynott)

            > I am a toucher, love being touched, but only with people I
            > know.  Workmates, friends, family.

            Casual touching is enjoyable for me also.  Mostly, though, I
            think touch is very sensual - a definite turn-on.

            To what you said above, I would add "but only with people I
            know reasonably well *and* trust (because there are a few
            people I know very well and do not trust, and would not wel-
            come them touching me)."  I'd definitely take out
            "workmates" and substitute "lovers" (because touching work-
            mates is something that can be *so* easily misunderstood;
            and, well, of course lovers are touched!).

            Ever wonder why you like being touched so much?  I have.  My
            hypothesis is because my parents were very touching and lov-
            ing to me while I was growing up.

            > I touched his forearm - he must have jumped about three
            > feet and just kept pulling away.  It also happened to be
            > when I was at a low self esteem period and it set me back
            > for months.

            Wow.  I can relate to this, Dale.  A couple of years ago I
            went through a period where I desparately wanted to be
            touched by my boyfriend and he didn't want to touch me at
            all.  Following that, I also had quite a low self-esteem,
            and did *not* want to be touched at all by anyone.  When a
            good friend put his arm around me while walking, I spun away
            and said in a very firm manner "Don't touch me."  He was re-
            ally hurt and confused.

            Dale, did I hear you correctly in that most people are re-
            ceptive to casual touches during conversation?  This sur-
            prises me, as I didn't think most people were that recep-
            tive....

                                                         nancy b.

    The value of touching was recognized several years ago and was a part
    of what we called 'touchy-feely courses'.  The benefits in working with
    the elderly, children and the disabled was documented.  It seems though
    that it is no longer taught as a means of communication and I suspect
    the reason is that it can be misunderstood and the problems outweigh
    the benefits.
    
    I am a toucher.  It seemed to come about after I had my children, and I
    have been that way ever since.  I touch people and I also touch things
    in the store, I 'have' to feel things in order to truly see them.
    
    The other night a friend admitted that he has learned to be
    spontaneous with touching and hugging and it came about from watching
    me and realizing that it is a valid way of communicating.
    
    The part that I find interesting about touching is how it changes from
    a ordinary form of communication to a sexual act.  I think some of the
    people who might react strongly to touching have difficulty
    differentiating the two.  My experiences with touching have never
    caused me to think inappropriately, there has to be some other
    ingredient to the communication for it to become sexual.
    
    There is a lot to touching, there has been studies done on the benefits
    of touching for premature infants.  I suspect that there is a lot more
    to this touching business then we currently understand.
      
    
    

    I hate being touched on the arm or anywhere in a business
    situation, and the gender of the toucher is irrelevant.  One of my
    coworkers does this and it drives me up the wall.  I always  feel
    like she's trying to create a personal relationship that doesn't
    exist to get something out of me in a business sense. 
    
    In my personal life it's an entirely different question, and I'd
    feel awful if we didn't touch.  But DEC is such a friendly,
    easygoing company that it's easy to lose track of the fact that
    the people you work with aren't necessarily friends, no matter how
    cordial the relationship.
    
    --bonnie

    I'm with Nancy on this one. I liked being touched by people I like.
    I dislike intensely being touched by people I don't know or don't
    like. Being in a large crowd where people brush against each other
    all the time really intimidates me.

    By that same token though I take the phrase "persons I know" to be
    somewhat loose. When I've met fellow noters whom I felt I "knew"
    even though I'd never seen them before I didn't feel odd to walk up
    and give them a hug.

    My parents weren't the holding touching kind and I grew up craving
    that. I try now to make an effort to hug my nieces and nephews and
    the other people I care about. I've read the same study Joyce
    mentioned with the premie infants. There was a statistically
    significant difference in the survival rates that favored those who
    were touched and held over those that weren't. liesl

    .80 Nancy
    
    Yes I do only touch those I know well.  My co-workers I have been
    with for four years, they are all men (except for one adminer).
    From the beginning it was somehow agreed that I would be one of
    the boys, mainly because I do travel with them a lot and at first
    they were a little uncomfortable.  I don't pose any threats and
    they can relax.  One of them hugs me occasionally - purely non-sexual,
    and its usually when I need it.  I'm fairly perceptive and often
    can pick up on something before anybody is aware of it.  None of them
    seem to mind the touch on the arm.  Of course after a few drinks
    they are giving hugs back - again nonsexual.  The brotherly
    relationship suits me down to the ground.  
                                               
    On the other hand one of the new manager's loves to strip you with his
    eyes.  Constantly calls the women 'lady' or 'honey'.  He did it
    with me in a meeting once, and in the middle of it I pulled him
    up, explained I had a name and could he please use it.  He has trouble
    meeting my eyes now.  And I am an eye contact person.  Suits me
    totally.  But, to add he loves submissive women, his wife is just
    that.  Only those who know me, know I ain't in way shape or form,
    submissive or meek! (^; 
                                               
    I have friends that I hug, family, etc when I need it.  But to add,
    I wasn't like that after my marriage broke up - 17 years ago.  I
    couldn't stand to touch or have anybody touch me.  Some things that
    happened during my marriage made me very wary.  It took about five
    years to gain the ability to touch again.  *All* the close male
    friends I have known in that 17 years have loved to be touched and
    to touch me.  But, the best huggers are my male gay friends.  When
    I'm really desperate I can always depend on a real warm bearhug.
    Nobody makes any sexual touches towards me without me first wanting
    it, and I can freeze you with one stare (^;          
                                               
    I also think Aussies are warmer people.  Our sense of humour almost
    demands it.  Nobody else can understand it so we have to stick
    together.  (^;  I can see the shudders now....what will happen
    when Dale come OT?  You're all safe I don't touch or hug until I'm
    comfortable with the other person (^;  But in meeting, I'm always
    the one to reach out to shake first.       
                                               
    I love to get into a lift with people who just stare at the doors.
    Now, my fellow deccies know me well and are usually prepared when
    I get in.  Usually manage to say something to break the ice.  Have
    been know to tapdance when the doors open and people I know or don't
    are standing there.  (^;                   
                                               
    There's also another thought on this.  A lot of the women and men
    tend to regard me as *Dear Abbey*.  Again these are the same people
    that are sort of the work family... (^;    
                                               
    I didn't mean to waffle on, but I tend to do that too.  I hope I
    answered your note ...
    
    ..dale
    

         The type that really blows my doors off are the hand-grabbing,
    back-slapping, aim-the-customer-at-the-product salespeople.  Now,
    usually salespeople are too put-off by my size to initiate any 
    unsolicited contact, but the brave/obnoxious ones really get the hair
    on the back of my neck to rise.  
    
                                     Greg

    re: .85

	I seem to remember a certain hug where a certain person froze 
	like a Montana lake.  I'm not intimidated by your bubba-size, 
	but I'll never forget the shocked look on your face.

	There are some people I consider close and good friends that I
	am not comfortable touching.  There are others I crave physi-
	cal contact with every time I see them, and have since the day
	I met them.  Has little to do with level of intimacy, just how
	they feel about touching and if they'll be comfortable if I'm
	touching them.

	Dale said her best huggers are her gay male friends.  I'd like
	to add to that and say my best huggers are my gay male and fe-
	male friends.  They know how to hug, and none of this shoulder
	hugging stuff where the only body parts that touch are facial
	cheeks because of whatever hangups might be present.  Blech!!!
	Either hug me or get away from me but don't give me that air-
	kissy-tense-falsetto-"HIIIIII" stuff!

							   Carla

    Re: .86
    
         Now Carla, you know there were extenuating circumstances regarding 
    that particular hug which sort of justify my rigor mortis routine.
    
         Now I find out that your gay male and female friends are better 
    huggers than me.  What's left to live for?
    
                                       Greg

    
    Re: .86
    
    Sweetly said, Carla.....;-)
    
    

Skin is the biggest sensory organ we've got.  I like to touch *so* much... I'd
like to be a massage therapist in a future life.  For now I'll settle on being
an amateur.  I don't usually have a problem telling who's comfortable with
touching, and who's not; it's usually obvious in their body language.  Although,
sometimes I get a hug when I'm not expecting one.  That can be surprising. My
style of hug (assuming the hugee is comfortable with it) is a strong bear hug. 
A lot of people I can get my forearms across their backs and crack their backs
some that way.

Jim.

         Like Jim, I am a bear hug administrator.  Carla only mentioned the 
    one time she surprised me with a hug, however the first time she got a
    Bruno-Hug (tm) her eyes lit up and her feet dangled in the air.
    
                                         Greg

RE: -.1

And how come *I* never got one of those????  Hum????  Probably because I 
haven't beat you at batgammon (sp?), eh?

Kat

    Come and get it.

    The Sunday Boston GLOBE Magazine had an article about two weeks ago
    about massage.  The author interviewed about five masseuses, and
    reported that something that jumped out at her (him?) was that all of
    the masseuses were incredibly relaxed and happy with themselves and
    what they were doing with their lives.  Sort of makes you wonder why
    we're NOT all massage therapists, doesn't it?!
    
    Taking a massage class is great even if you don't plan to use it
    professionally.  I took two classes in Shiatsu a few years ago.  It was 
    such a relaxing experience -- I felt fully alive and aware of living
    inside my body.  It was also neat to be in a class where you spend the
    whole time touching perfect strangers on their buttocks and necks and
    backs and hands and legs and stomachs and feet and faces ... and to see
    how very quickly it became natural and easy.  Makes you wonder why it's
    made difficult.
    
    I really think touch is part of being human -- it's so sad that it's
    regulated so much by society.  I was brought up in a fairly "remote"
    family, since my parents didn't display affection physically for us or
    each other.  I only learned about hugging friends in college.  From my
    upbringing, I still am reserved about touching acquaintances first ...
    but from my later experiences, if someone touches me in a friendly way
    during conversation I think it's great!
    
    Pam

RE: .92


Oh fine...I see you in the cafe' and I STILL don't get it!  Hrmph!

:-)

About touching......I'm a very touching person with someone I'm close to, 
but I don't like to be touched when I don't know the person well enough, 
or I'm perhaps annoyed with them.

And I absolutely HATE to have people touch my spine.....only one
person in my life has ever gotten about with touching my spine.....perhaps
a phobia I have?

/kath

	I hereby amend myself (ooh!):  Gregory Bubba Bruno gives some
	incredible feet-dangling guts-smooshing hugs!

							   Carla

        Marilyn Vos Savant (Guiness Book of World Records for person with
    highest I.Q.) has a column in Parade Magazine (Sunday newspapers.)
    In the August 13, 1989 column she was asked: "Do you ever get stressed?  
    If so, how do you cope with it?"
        She replied "*Sure*, I get stressed.  Who doesn't?  My own way of 
    coping with it is to get a massage, and as often as possible.  By far
    the best-and cheapest-way is to ask a friend.  No kidding.  The
    arrangement is, of course, that you will return the favor.  That warm
    human touch, the feel of an old friend's hand on your shoulder, not
    only provides comfort to the muscles but also consolation to the
    spirit.  Most of us have been so programmed to avoid contact with one
    another that we have lost touch with the healing properties of simple
    human affection."
    
         Nine or ten years ago, at a massage school/c.o. membership
    retreat, I met a man named Jim Prescott (Ph. D.)  He had been a 
    researcher at National Institutes of Health and his primary studies
    involved touch (also the study of societies which had female "gods"
    vs. male "gods" as heads...[lots of interesting stuff but not part
    of this, directly])  Some of the results of his work are now very
    familiar.  They include empirical findings with rhesus monkeys which
    showed severe psychoses or death to those that weren't handled 
    in infancy.  Another interesting and unexpected finding was that
    MOTION is initially more important than touching, but touching was
    critical to "normalcy."  Touching is often one of the most important
    things done to communicate/breakthrough autistism.
         (What may or may not be specifically interesting concerning Jim
    Prescott was that he himself had a very difficult time touching people
    and being touched by them at that time yet he was surrounded with
    "massage people" the entire year plus he spent living at Getting-in-Touch
    [the name of the massage school we were both a part of.]) 
          
          As for Marilyn's statements above, I can concur with perhaps one
    exception.  If touch is all one needs/wants, then a friend will
    certainly suffice...and stress-reduction can follow.  But to truly
    benefit from a massage, there is nothing like a pro.  Even while I
    was in massage school, it was easy to see that some people were clearly
    more "skilled" than others...even though both learned the same things.
    While the "unskilled" *professional* could feel good, the "skilled"
    professional would be a far more pleasing experience.  
          As a pro myself, I run into all kinds of people as far as touch
    goes, similar to those experiences already expressed by several of the
    noters here.  Some people like it and welcome it, some people like it
    and don't welcome it, some people don't like it, etc.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    This is in the vein of "couldn't resist"...
    
    About touching...You know, that touching is one of those sociological
    definitions....cultures define in braod terms what is acceptable as
    far as touching goes...in public, in school, at work, even in the
    bedroom.
    
    New England has some very puritanical roots...so there are bunches of
    folks raised in NE who have difficulty in touching. Then we also have
    some very southern Meditarranean roots....and those folks touch you at
    every opportunity...instant communication difficulties...
    
    Anyway...the point here [ibid] is that sometimes a reaction to a touch
    is not a reaction to "you and your touch" at all but to someone's
    cultural upbringing....
    
    I am a heavy-duty toucher....but I try to scope out the folks that are
    uncomfortable with my tendancy to hug anything that moves that I
    like...and send them verbal signals instead...means I don't feel
    unloved when someone involuntarily jomps across the room away from
    me...and they get to know that I think they are hugabble...but that IU
    respect their mores and won't do it to them...
    
    [the view from down here in the bleacher seats....]
    
    Melinda

    	I *love* touching, and especially hugging.  I've never been able to
    figure out just exactly what it is *about* hugs that I like so much, I
    just know I love'em!


    	It does depend on the other person to some degree, however.  If
    they're comfortable with it, then I almost always am too.  If they're
    not, then I'm usually not either.  I have close female friends that I'm
    "touchy" with, and others that I'm not.  I'm basically amenable to how-
    ever they want to handle that part of the friendship.


    	When it comes to strangers, it depends.  On the person, the
    situation, and especially on how it's done.  I think deep down inside
    I'm a very "touchy" person, and like it and am comfortable with it.
    But there have been times when a stranger touched me in a manner that I
    wasn't terribly comfortable with.  If someone gets *too* familiar, that
    can bother me (regardless of what it says on the bathroom walls, I'm
    *not* that kinda guy!  ;-) ).  Luckily this has been rare.


    	Hmm...  Wonder if I should do my rain dance for the 29th?  :-}


    Brian

    for all of you Bruno hug connoiseurs,
    take it from one of his long time friends who has been blessed by
    hugs and real moral support during some tough times. . .  Backgammon
    or no backgammon, this guy is one of the better ones at the game.
    
    So, there, Bru.
    

DEFINATELY!!!!  :-)  (My Bruno hug lifted me about 2 feet off the floor!!!)

:-)

Backgammon again soon!  (And this time, I win!)

/kath

PS: and no cheating

.99>	Backgammon or no backgammon, this guy is one of the better 
.99>	ones at the game.
    
	I still always beat him.  Hehehehehe!  =8-)

         Y'all are just too kind.  Now, stop it.
    
                                      Greg

    re: *not* *yet*!
    
    O.k; just make sure to let us know when. . .
    
    Steve

    When I became single I discovered, after a few months, that I needed
    some kind of "personal contact".  I noticed in the newspaper a few ads
    for singles groups.  I attended a few different group meetings until I
    came upon one (in Lancaster, Pa.) that closed their meetings with
    hugs..."4 for survival, 8 for maintenance, 12 for growth".   I found
    myself back at the meeting the next week.  Self-analyzing my motives, I
    discovered that I had more hugs in those 2 meetings than I had had the
    entire rest of my life.  I began stationing myself near the door and
    hugged every woman who came out. (or tried) Warm, friendly,
    non-threatening hugs.  Six months of this "therapy" and I was ready to
    get on with my life.
    
    
    Bob

    Wow, did -.107 bring back memories!  After my divorce I got plenty
    of hugs from female friends and from my children.  But there were
    times I **ACHED** for a non-threatening, non-sexual, friendly-I-care-
    about-you hug from a guy.  (Even considered asking my manager for
    one at one point, but decided, though we were friends, he wouldn't
    understand.)  Too bad my father and brothers were 2000 miles away!
    Recently in another note there was a comment that someone felt she
    was, perhaps, "too independent."  Looking back on it from the
    perspective of eight or nine years, I think I was too independent.
    Otherwise I'd have gone ahead and asked that manager or one of the
    other men I worked with or one of my friends' husbands, or someone.
    
    (Too bad I didn't have Notes in those days and HR parties to turn
    to for therapy!)
    
    Karen 
    

    After growing up in a family which rarely indulged in physical contact,
    it took me a while to get comfortable with hugs, hand-holding, etc. 
    (Given my bony frame, it probably took other people a while to get
    comfortable, too.)
    
    The H_R bash was the first big sloppy party I've been to since becoming
    single, and I noticed that the old timid forest creature (: >,)
    reflexes were back.  On the one hand, I _really_ miss human contact; on
    the other, I seem to have an instinctive mistrust of it right now. 
    
    Those of you who have been through this "growing experience", is this
    just an uncomfortable phase that'll pass off by itself?  Or is it time
    to get a masseur and start hanging out with slam-dancers?
    
    Ray

    
    Re: .108
    
    <Hugging your manager>
    
    As a manager at another place besides digital I used to have a few 
    people who would run into trying (Or should I say crying) times and 
    they would come to me for a hug and to spill thier guts.  Sometimes is
    was kind of nice cause at times I needed one myself....
    
    Steve "Yes Kat Me Steve "The ?" Thompson"