Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I see no gender here... (.0 is genderless, so I won't make any
    assumptions)
    
    Being male, I customarily expect to pick up the check on the first
    date. (No flames, please)  I have found that in most of the cases of
    this lately, the woman has offered to pay her "share", and I usually
    refuse. My comment on this to my date is usually "If I couldn't afford
    this, I wouldn't do it.  If you wish to invite me out to dinner in the
    future, I will accept."
    
    Sometimes, both parties will agree before the evening starts to
    split the bill.  I have no problem with that.  My basic philosophy
    is that if *I* ask you to dinner, I'm paying.  If *you* ask me,
    it's on you.  If & when I get to know you well, and we both want
    to go out for the evening or one of us is a bit strapped for cash,
    we can split it.  This is particularly true when I'm with women
    who make as much money (or more) than I do.  I think it's realistic
    when both parties have good salaries to "distribute" the costs.
    
    					--Doug

    Yep, I agree with .1.  The one who asks is the one who should
    expect to pay.  I would expect that on a first date, you wouldn't
    go somewhere TOO expensive, so for most of us, it shouldn't matter
    that much.  When I was dating a woman over a period of a few months,
    she occasionally paid for dinner, and that was fine with me.  It's
    important that the couple feel on an equal basis, whether or not
    their incomes are actually comparable.
    					Steve

    It doesn't really matter to me who pays the tab as long as we enjoyed
    ourselves!!!  Usually if we are having a great time .... its a fight
    for the bill :�)  Of course no malice intended!!
    
    Zing

    I always insist.  If the 'other' also insists, we split.
    It can be just as insulting to people to imply that they are not
    allowed (Or can't) to pay their part.

    Just a thought.

          The one who issued the invitation pays, if no other arrangements
     were made.  I at least find it incredibly insulting to invite someone
     out, and then have that person 'insist' on paying (the tab, a share,
     the tip, whatever).  I find it equally insulting for someone to invite
     me out, and then expect that I pay.  Most people I know feel the same.

				Brian Hetrick

    
    If I ask a female friend if she feels like going out to eat or for
    a few drinks, I don't expect to have to pay her way and so far none
    of my female friends has ever *expected* me to.  She understands
    that I feel like getting out and would like some company.  I ask
    if she's interested in going out, too, with the knowledge that we
    will each pay our own ways.  I really don't see *any* reason why
    the same should not be true if I ask a male friend if he feels like
    joining me.  I wouldn't *mean* that I was treating him to dinner
    or drinks.  I would just mean, hey, feel like going out?
    
    I would never let a male on a "first date" (I can't even really
    relate to that concept anymore) pay my way *unless* I really didn't
    have enough money with me.  I don't have a "good" salary so the
    idea of treating each other just doesn't fit into my weekly budget.
     I could afford to pay my $20 or $25 share in a given week, but
    would never be able to foot the whole bill.
    
    Lorna
    

    I think that the person who did the asking is the one responsible
    for the bill, unless other arrangements were explicitly made in
    advance.
    
    However, I usually offer to pay my share.
    
    Kathleen

Who pays is the question:


In a dating situation, I expect the male to pick up the bill, but I also 
expect him to pick out a restaurant that he knows he can fully afford in 
his budget. Even if it is for a Arby's and a salad bar.

However there was a time, I did call a male up and ask him out to dinner, 
because I wanted to get to know him better and in person.  He was a noter, 
and we had clashed heads over a different issue, and I invited him out to 
dinner.  I played the complete role reversal and very much enjoyed it.  I 
would have even picked him up, but he lived so far away.  So, we agreed to 
meet at a place of my choice (It turned out to be Pizza Hut, because that 
was all I COULD afford), and I even brought him Daisies.  If my memory 
serves me right, he did volunteer to pick up the tab when the bill came, but 
I quickly told him this was my date, and I was paying; he did not even 
argue (Hi XXX <--- He knows who he is 8-)...)

But back to the issue at hand.  Most men who know me, and ask me out know 
that I am a single mother of three very beautiful young ladies, and know 
that I am on a very tight budget.  Because of it, they usually insist on 
paying the bill all the time, but I also try to invite them over for dinner,
for a true home cooked meal, so I try to even it out.  

If I had to go dutch, I would not be able to do it, and they understand.
But, if I plan on a special time, I normally will set aside a small amount
for weeks, and then, say, "Want to go for dinner?" He usually says yes, 
sure - with or without the girls - and I say without... then, when the bill
comes, I hurry up and take the bill, and say "I invited you remember?"
After an argument over whether I can afford it or not, I get to pay! Now 
mind you this has only happened once or twice, but it is still fun!!!

But I still believe in the old traditions.  The male takes out the female,
and he handles all the finances. I don't care if this is the '80's. some
traditions should never go away, and that is one of them.

Gale

P.S. I just ran this thru DECspell, and it did not recoginize "dutch" as a 
term.  Must be telling us something 8-)

    On the first few times out I fall into the "let's go dutch" camp.  
    
    I have only once in my life been on a first 'date' (how I hate that
    word) where the man insisted on paying my way.  It still, better than 
    ten years later, gives me the willies to think back on how acutely
    uncomfortable I was that night.  After that experience I established 
    a personal policy of making sure it was understood it was to be dutch
    before I would agree to go out.  If a friendship blossoms then I have 
    no problem with it being my/your treat.
    
    When I ask a man out I am always prepared to pay but I don't argue
    if he wants to split the tab (and on that one I am firmly in the
    divide by number of bodies eating and figure it will come out in
    the wash over time camp).
    
    Audrey

re: .11,

	I have alot of problems with this subject because it seems that since
    the "check" is always the last thing to happen at a dinner out on the town,
    that it's easy for such an insignificant thing as money to sometimes leave
    a traumatic impact on the whole evening.

	It doesn't seem to matter whether you pay, they pay, or you "go dutch"
    because you always leave wondering if you did the right thing (i.e. "did
    I insist hard enough? ...should I have let them pay? ...was it MY turn to
    pay? ..etc.).  Maybe the solution is to find a place where you pay BEFORE
    you eat, so that the issue of money gets ironed out up-front, and then you
    can relax and enjoy the meal (and each other) and leave with thoughts other
    than the check on your mind.

								-davo

    RE:  .13
    
    Bob,
    
    You hit the nail on the head when you made the comment about women
    friends.  After my disasterous evening I went home and thought long
    and hard about how I had felt and how my mind games had spoiled
    what could have, perhaps, been a very pleasant evening.  It seemed
    to me at the time that if I just approached evenings with men friends
    the same as I did women it solved the whole thing.  (By the by,
    to someone spoke of home cooked meals being the trade ... I too
    have done that when it seemed appropriate.)  I guess what I'm saying
    is that I have a very strong need not to feel indebted over the
    long haul in friendships, and the first few visits especially I
    find it very uncomfortable.
    
    No I wasn't being whimsical.  I have used that ground rule for close
    to 13 years (and yes, even in a long term relationship I still have
    men, as well as women, friends I socialize with and that appoach happens
    to work well for me).
    
    Also, I don't at all feel that what works for me applies to anyone
    else.  This is just my solution to a situation in which I could foresee
    nothing but discomfort on my part if it were to happen again.
    
    An aside, I still find it much easier to talk face to face than to
    actually put a note in a file.  Grrr.
    
    Audrey

    
    > An aside, I still find it much easier to talk face to face than
    > to actually put a note in this file
    
    	How *well* I know ;-)    Hi Audrey!
    
    Now about the check.....
    
    	I haven't dated in over 6 years, but my SO and I usually have
    no problem paying the check.  The first couple of dates, he paid
    for, then after we got to know eachother better, I treated alot
    of the times or we went dutch.  He was in college and I worked
    part-time, then full-time, so I always had enough money. 
    
    	When I go out with friends (male/female), it's mostly dutch,
    unless otherwise stated before we go out.  I feel more comfortable
    with this.
    
    Dawn
    

    
    The male pays unless he was asked out by the female, but by default,
    the male always accepts the check!
    
    ....yep a chauvinist here
    
    George
    

    When I go out to dinner (dinner *groups* excepted :-)), I am
    always prepared to pay for the complete meal, regardless of who
    asks whom. If the woman offers to pay her half, I usually don't
    argue (in fact, I tend to respond with "Fine by me; I'm not proud").
    If I insist on paying the bill myself, I usually suggest that she
    take care of the tip. On the same token, if she insists on paying
    the bill, I offer to leave the tip.
    
    In most cases, though, the payment scheme is worked out beforehand
    in a semi-subtle manner. Rather than asking "Would you like to go
    out to dinner?" the question is usually phrased "How about going
    out to eat? My treat" or "How about if I take you to dinner?"
    
    Something that was said in a previous response reminded me of a
    commercial for VISA or Mastercard or somesuch. A couple at dinner,
    and the man insists on picking up the check (paying with the
    relevant credit card, of course), saying, "You can get it next
    time." Then there's a voice-over of the woman thinking, "Great!
    There's going to be a next time!"
    
    --- jerry

    The consensus seems to have developed that the date should be "dutch"
    or "You pay this time, I'll pay next time".  It may be better for
    a woman not to decide this before it comes time to pay up though
    depending on the man that she is out with.
    
    I think the question of "Who pays?" is based on power struggle between
    the two people on the date.  The woman is given the right to say
    "No" to whatever the man is brave enough to suggest.  She gains
    power by having this control.  The man gains power from being
    intimidating and aggressive as well as having economic power if
    he also pays for the date.
    
    In the case of shy men (Like me) he might find the power of control
    that the woman has to be very intimidating.  If a woman who is
    interested in me is wise, she will let me pay.  I will gain a
    feeling of confidence from wielding my economic power and am more
    likely to ask for something (a second date, a kiss, sex ect.) that
    she might also be interested in.
    
    I went on one first date with a woman who refused to let me pay
    for anything.  I felt so emasculated the next day that I went
    out an bought an $800 VCR to make me feel male again.
    
    Decide who should pay based on what you need to do to balance the
    power struggle.
    
    						MJC
    

    I disagree that there's a concensus.  If the couple is of comparable
    means, going dutch, or alternating might seem reasonable after the
    relationship is on firm ground.  But I feel that on a first date,
    especially, one is making things more difficult than necessary in
    insisting on going against tradition.  (To me, tradition means
    whoever asks, pays.)  I believe that most women would object to
    find that they were expected to pay (or split the check) on a first
    date, unless they had agreed to that beforehand.

    However, I was recently introduced to a delightful compromise. 
    I paid for the meal, she gave me flowers!  I loved it!

    				Steve

    
    I would never go out on a date not prepared to pay my own way..
    in fact I have taken a rain check or postponed a date due to the fact
    I was broke.  I do have a real problem with a man assuming it is
    his responsibility to automatically pick up a tab.  Sure I am a
    single mom that works two jobs to make ends meet but I am also very
    conscious of the fact that if I intend to entertain myself I should
    be willing to accommodate my budget accordingly.  There have been
    instances where I was asked in advance to please accept the fact
    that the check was not to be my concern but that I could contribute
    by buying the after dinner drinks, leaving the tip or treating to
    desert.  This I find acceptable because I then do not feel like
    I am on a free ride.  
    
    I don't assume the position I do concerning checks to be irritating
    or to show off my independence.. I think I do it more out of concern
    for wanting to be a responsible contributing person and also because
    it is unfair to assume that a male must always assume the financial
    responsibility for an evening out.  If I am asked to go to a show
    with someone and the tickets were pre-purchased then I am gracious
    enough not to make a fuss.. I just think that in today's inflated
    world things are expensive enough and that it is unfair to use one's
    sex as a means to not contribute.  
    
    As a relationship progresses to a more comfortable stage then I
    can see working out a compromise as to who will contribute what
    and when.  But when a relationship is in an initial stage of two
    people simply trying to find out if they are compatible then it
    is only fair not to assume you need not be willing to help pay.
    
    just one gal's opinion
    
    later, gailann
                          

    
    If I ask the women out, then Ifeel it is my responsibility to pick
    up the check, especially when the relationship is in the beginning
    stages. Later on, when the relationship becomes(if it ever) stable
    then I would consider dutch or herpaying once in a while, especially
    if its say for lunch at burger king, or going out because no on
    feels like cooking. But on special "romantic" occasions I still
    want to pick up the tab. I just got out of a relationship where
    the lady expected me to pay everything (after a year and a half,
    and living together), but I blame alot of that on me for I always
    payed at the beginning, but after awhile it was starting to get
    quite expensive, and when I discussed it with her she accussed me
    of being cheap, and the relationship slowly started to fail.

Does this belong here or in a separate note?

What about groups -- should you divide the check evenly or everyone try to
figure out what their own share is?  I happen to eat a lot and have no problem
with either method.  From what I've seen, unless someone specifically starts
calculating their own charges the bill gets divided equally (but usually not
fairly).

Opinions?

-mark

    Where the food is shared, as in Chinese restaurants, or where the
    meals cost pretty much the same, then the "total divided by number
    of people" is fair.  Where different people consume widely differing
    amounts of food and drink, it is not fair.
    
    Whatever the system, it should be laid out in advance.  I remember
    going to a going-away lunch thinking it was to be pay-for-self,
    and ordering a cheap lunch, no drink, no dessert.  Then I was told
    to pay more than twice my calculated amount: seems other people
    had had steak and booze.  I was not happy.
    
    			-John Bishop

    I think part of it depends on who you are with.  I had a group of
    friends in North Carolina for many years who did everything together.
    We ALWAYS split the bill, even if one or two of us had much more
    expensive meals than the rest.  The idea was that over a long period
    of time and many meals, it would all even out.
    
    When out with people I don't eat with often, I'm more comfortable
    if the waiter puts the orders on separate checks.  If they won't
    do that, often the individuals can pay at the register according
    to what they had.  Failing that, split the bill evenly and bite
    the bullet for the couple of extra bucks it may cost you.
    
    The only thing that is really taboo to me is to make a big scene
    out of calculating the tab.  I had an experience once where one
    member of the party actually got out her CALCULATOR in a very nice
    restaurant and started polling the people at the table as to how
    many drinks they had and what they had ordered for dinner and if
    they remembered EXACTLY what the price was, if they had the bleu
    cheese dressing for $.25 extra, etc.  One of the most embarrassing
    moments of my life.  We never invited that couple out with us again.
    
    							Pat

    
    Re .18, You state, "If a woman who is interested in me is wise,
    she will let me pay.  I will gain a feeling of confidence from welding
    my economic power and am more likely to ask for something (a seonc
    second date, a kiss, sex, etc.) that she might also be interested
    in."  Frankly, I think you sound as though you have some hangups.
     It sounds as though you think having sex with a woman is some kind
    of treat you have to hand out if you can have things your way on
    a date!  It's too bad if the only way someone can feel self-confident
    is by wielding economic power.
    
    I tend to agree pretty much with Gail Ann's view.  For one thing,
    it seems unfair to expect that men should always pay for women just
    because of old traditional views of men as bread earners when today
    most women work as well.  Why should single men be broke all the
    time trying to pay for women?  And why should single women, some
    of whom have very good jobs, always get free meals just because
    they are women?  (I remember my ex-husband complaining that he was
    going broke trying to meet women, taking them on dates.  I say,
    for goodness sakes, smarten up and make them pay for themselves!
     They'd have to if they were going out with a girlfriend!  Fair
    is fair!)
    
    On the other hand, as I woman, I wouldn't want to think that a man
    "expected" anything of me just because he paid for my meal.  I can't
    be bought that easily.  I mean, either I'm interested in a man sexually
    or I'm not, regardless of who paid for what.
    
    Lorna
    

All of this reminds me of something that happened a few years back.  A friend
and I went out on a double blind date with two young women from France. We took
them on a tour of San Francisco, and afterwards took them to dinner.  We had a
nice, long, enjoyable meal and chatted about current events, which country had
better wine (California does, of course!), etc. Finally the check arrived. Being
the hosts in this situation, we gladly offered to pay.  Then came a real
surprise: the ladies (who's English was not very good) seemed to have been
deeply insulted by our offer! 

We haven't figured their reaction out to this day.  Did they think we expected
sexual favors in return? (It certainly wasn't *that* kind of date).  Maybe
they view picking up the tab for a woman differently in France.  I don't
know...

John M. 

    Re .27:

    > Frankly, I think you sound as though you have some hangups.

    I would be the last to claim that I am completely free from hangups.
    
    > It sounds as though you think having sex with a woman is some kind
    > of treat you have to hand out if you can have things your way on
    > a date!
    
    Say What??!  This does not fit me at all!  I'm sure that there are
    some men who feel they need to dominate every single part of
    a date.  I am not one of them.
    
    I am usually attracted to women who I can go head to head with
    (personal power wise) and have it come up in a draw.  Some one
    lacking personal power will bore me quickly.  Some one with
    to much power might make me feel vulnerable.  Once in a while
    I end up with more than I bargain for.  I those cases paying
    the bill puts me in the provider roll which in-turn boosts
    my personal power.  My goal is always to get back to even.
    I have no interest in having a woman under my thumb.
    
    > It's too bad if the only way someone can feel self-confident
    > is by wielding economic power.
    
    If it was someone's only source of self-confidence they would be
    in bad shape.  It is only one of may sources of personal power.
    Most men have a strong base that might come up short once in a while.
    If your date's power could use a little boost, why not let him take on
    the provider roll?  After all, we men are only human.
    
    					  	MJC O->
          

    re: .28
    
    As an occasional participant on Fraternity road trips, I partially
    understand how the women felt.  Whenever we stayed at another brother's
    house, we would take our host(s) out for dinner as a token of our
    appreciation of what they had done for us.  If you had just taken
    these ladies for a thorough tour of the area, they may have felt
    cheated out of their change to reward you for your troubles.
    
    As for what they expected of two men picking up their dinner tab,
    I can't say.  But I did have two Italian girls, visiting the states,
    spend a night in my apartment a few weeks ago ...
    
    Dave

    Strange the culture difference between different parts on the country.
    I grew up and spent all of my dating time here in Colorado Springs
    and have yet to have a date offer to pay for a date/dinner/anything.
     I have had several dates give nice gifts,ect but never pay.
    i was just brought up that way.. No, i dont expect anything because
    I pay.
    Might be neat to try it the other way.
    
    -jerry