Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    This could be considered a strange opinion, but I think people
    who insist on total honesty in a relationship have a cruel streak.
    Total honesty can, in my opinion, do as much to kill a healthy
    relationship as dishonesty can.  Examples?  Hmm, let me think a
    minute. Ok, here goes:  when I first started dating my husband a
    few years ago, he wanted us to be totally honest about our past
    relationships.  I said weelll, totally honest?  He insisted.  I
    then adopted the position ok, you asked for it.  When I disclosed
    all pertinent details of a particular intense and painful relationship
    that had just ended before I started seeing him, he didn't call
    me for a week!!  Turns out he didn't want me to be *that* totally
    honest with him!  I said, oh, are there degrees?  What finally came
    out was that he was jealous that I had been as close to someone
    else as I was to him.  After we had dealt with that, things progressed
    much better, but I always found myself censoring my words and weighing
    my feelings before I expressed them.  Is that bad?  No, I think
    not.  Thinking about what you say before you say never hurt anyone.
    Does it work?  Can't tell. I'm currently separated.
    
    What all this boils down to is that people have good and bad feelings
    about those they are closest to.  These can range from deepest love
    to deepest hatred, depending on the situation.  Expressing all of
    these emotions as they occur can hurt people, and sometimes permanently
    damage a relationship.  A little common sense can avoid that pain.
     And I guess that's all I'm advocating.
    
    Mary-Michael 

    After a period of total honesty that got me into more trouble than
    I wanted, (hadn't yet learned about diplomacy) I adopted the following
    policy:
    
    	I will never lie to a direct question.
    
    I will admit to occaisional sins of omission, (and I will admit
    that "never" might be a bit too absolute) but a direct lie is very
    painful for me, and as a consequence, I  am not a "good" liar in
    any sense.
    
    I try to limit my few transgressions to saving my own skin and
    preserving feelings of others when I feel that the hurt inflicted
    would do more damage than telling the truth.  I spent some
    uncomfortable time at my first job telling on of the other programmers
    in my group that  his code was worthless...  Live and learn.
    
    			Honestly --Doug

    
    You got me feeling very cynical.  I have adopted the following creed
    for this and several other situations.
    
    		"I don't believe it."
    
    I don't say this, i just keep it in the back of my mind.
    
    I used to think honesty was the best policy until I discovered that
    being completely honest frequently pissed people off.  In fact,
    almost one hundred percent of the time.  These days, I'm remaining
    tacit and suffering less.
    
    Dave W.
    

    Ok, here's my nickel's worth (inflation, ya know...)
    
    Insisting on total honesty and full disclosure, either for yourself
    or your partner, is a sure-fire way to kill a relationship.  I'm
    more certain of the "full disclosure" part of this - I have no
    need to know EVERYTHING about a partner, and she has no need to
    know EVERYTHING about me.  I would hope that we would tell each
    other things that are interesting and important, but for example,
    complete details on all past lovers is just ridiculous.  I do
    tend to disclose more than I think is necessary, sometimes, because
    I never know what is important to someone.  I don't, however, "spill
    my guts" about my past problems to everyone within shouting distance.

    Anecdote time - I have a brother who experienced some marital
    difficulties.  He has called up everyone he knows, everyone SHE
    knows, parents, relatives and total strangers, and has revealed
    to all exactly "what she did to him".  The wierdest thing is that
    after all that, he's moved back in with his wife.  I can't understand
    this, and feel VERY sorry for him and what future he has.
    
    As for honesty - I am an honest person.  So honest, that I get myself
    in trouble sometimes.  I almost always say exactly what I think,
    and, until recently anyway, would do so irregardless of how the
    other person might take it.
    
    In the past few years, I've learned to be more diplomatic.  I've
    found it's possible to say something in two ways - the brutal way
    and the constructive way.  I wish I could claim to always pick the
    latter, but I can't.
    
    Still, given the choice between telling the truth and lying, I'll
    pick the truth every time.  If the "truth hurts", I'll see if I
    can phrase it in a way that is more comfortable, for me and my
    partner (or whoever I am talking to).  I expect basic honesty out
    of everyone towards me, and DEFINITELY want to know if I am doing
    something wrong.  If you grit your teeth, smile and tell me everything
    is hunky-dory, you aren't doing either of us a favor.

    						Steve

	Like .2, I won't lie (I just can't get away with it). But that
	doesn't mean volunteering everything. I think it's really a
	quite simple question - the more you trust someone, the more
	of yourself and your inner secrets you share. But always keep
	an inner "private space" to yourself.
	
	Mike

	"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything."

						-Mark Twain


	I agree with most of what I've seen here.  I doubt if anybody has a
    totally clean slate of opinions which they can safely spew forth to the 
    world without a little self-editing first.

	For one thing, any real interesting truths are going to probably
    hurt someone's ears, and tact should be engaged to ease this pain, and
    for another thing, any truths which aren't painful are probably a little
    on the boring side anyway.

	To summarize: tell the truth when you're on the "witness stand", but
    otherwise put a lid on it before you either enrage or bore everyone to
    tears.  Then again, if you're not ashamed of being a clown, use your own
    honest truths for material; there's nothing funnier than a true story if
    you know how to tell it!

							-davo the clown

    I believe the issue of honesty is not as important as motivation.
    
    When faced with a decision to tell the truth, skirt the issue or
    tell a lie, the choice is made based on the person's motivation.
    
    Always insisting on honesty is to deny the subtle complexities of
    human relations, because there is not always only one right and
    one wrong - ask anybody working on Artifical Intelligence development.
    
    If your motivation is to hurt, being honest does not make you virtuous,
    although it's a common rationalization for inflicting pain, and
    a standard MO among most of the people who always insist on complete
    honesty.  There is a touch of sadism in most "brutally honest" folks.
    
    In the same vein, if your motivation is to treat gently the people who 
    are closest to you, then there will be times when complete honesty
    will be appropriate and times it will not.  
    
    And I believe that to remain true to oneself, one *should* always be 
    truthful in response to a direct question, but it's essential that
    this point be conveyed early on in a relationship so that there are 
    no surprises, no wounded egos, and everyone emerges with their dignity
    preserved.
    
    When she asks, "Was Jane prettier than me?" you can seize the
    opportunity to hurt by being honest and reminding her that she is 
    not as pretty, or you can realize that she doesn't-really-care-what-
    Jane-actually-looked-like,-she-just-wants-to-know-if-you-find-HER-pretty,
    and use the opportunity to bolster your friend.  
    
    Next time you're faced with the choice to tell or not to tell, examine
    your motivations.  When you are being strongly "encouraged" to be
    totally honest, examine theirs.  But ALWAYS be true to yourself.
               
    Sandy

    I too would not lie to a direct question but that doesn't mean 
    I will answer it completely either. I draw the line at the
    point in which I feel the truth will cause pain.   Along those
    same lines I don't ask questions that I really don't want to know
    the answer to.  Its easier to live a full life together if you
    respect each others privacy and its much easier to forgive anothers
    actions if you don't dig for all the details.
    
    Sauna_Rat

    It occurs to me to wonder how important it is to know the truth
    in order to tell the truth.  Maybe telling the truth is more apt
    to create problems is enough effort hasn't gone into knowing the
    truth.  It seems to me that the times I have really hurt someones
    feelings by being honest, I hadn't done enough work on being honest
    with myself beforehand.

    There are times when complete honesty is called for and times
    when it isn't.
    
    Examples:
    
    I had a disasterous relationship once that got that way because
    each of us was telling the other what we *thought* the other
    wanted to hear. If we'd been honest with each other, things
    probably would have worked out. The odd thing was that the
    situation this time was opposite to what one would usually
    expect. Neither of us had started out wanting anything more than
    a close friendship. We both found ourselves falling in love with
    the other, but never said anything, because we thought the other
    didn't want that close a relationship.
    	Complicating that was the fact that she had strong feelings
    for someone else as well. She didn't want to hurt either one of
    us, and ended up hurting both of us, even though she wasn't doing
    so maliciously. It all boiled down to a lack of honest communication.
    
    
    There are also secrets that I've promised to keep that shall never
    pass from my lips, no matter how much I may trust my SO. I don't
    think that keeping these "hidden" is wrong.
    
    --- jerry

    A lot of good points have been brought out, but still, I am left
    with the belief that honesty is the best route, even when you don't want
    to know.  What I am trying to say, is that I am a creature of
    curiousity and cannot relax when I am unsure of something that may
    be very important to me.  
    
    There have been times in my life that I suspected something but
    did not have total belief that I was correct.  I would ask the
    appropriate individual to rest my mind, and to please be honest.
     I may not have liked * enjoyed the content, bt once I was sure
    of the truth, I felf much better.  (Able to sleep nites and not
    worry about it) I am a preacher for honesty, even when it hurts.
                   
    If you are afraid the truth may hurt someone, explain that you don't
    want to hurt them and you think that the truth will do just that.
    If they still insist on the truth, then it is in there court! 
    You are no longer responsible!
    
    I am not trying to alter your philosophy, just show you another
    perspective.
    
    

    I am also a person who would rather know the truth, no matter how
    bad it might be.  The best manager I've ever worked for was quite
    honest in what he told his direct reports.  Many times I've hung
    up the phone thinking "Boy, I wish he hadn't told me that", only
    to realize a second later that I'd much rather know than to work
    for someone who hides the truth, someone I never know whether to
    believe or not.
    
    							Pat

I will cast another vote for honesty, but...

There have definitely been times when I wanted to share something with someone,
because I did not want a secret to open a big black pit between us, but I could
not, because it would cause too much trouble.

I thought how nice it would be, if I could just tell them, so that this thing
would not seperate us anymore.  What you have to do sometimes, (on the recieving
end), is listen to the person, and know, even if it hurts, that it is not being
told to hurt, it is being told to share.  So listen, but otherwise let it never
have existed.  Don't react to it, or act on it; it was meant to be shared and
*nothing* more.

Does that make any sense??

Jim. 

Previous replies have concentrated on honesty as it applies to
what you tell an SO about previous affairs. But this is a rather
narrow view. Honesty is a way of life; or it isn't.

I think this has to do with the culture. Where I come from, people
call things the way they see them. People say what they think.
Sometimes, it hurts (someone may say: "you did a lousy job", or
"I think what you just said is stupid"). Most of the time, it's
good, because immediate feedback is good and --at least with most
people-- you know exactly where you stand.

Now, that doesn't mean there are no liers or that everybody is
absolutely honest. It simply means that the cultural atmosphere
is based on accurate, immediate exchange of information. Saying
that someone "shoots straight from the shoulder" is a compliment,
not a slam.

If nothing else, this attitude makes for development of true
friendships, because one gets to know people very quickly. It's
very easy to decide who one wants to relate to. Personally, I'd
rather hear "Hell, no! I do not want to see you again" (that's
in the old country), then "Let's get together some time, but let
me take a rain check for now" (same thing in American).

When I came to this country, I made quite a few faux pas's, saying
things that I shouldn't have. I soon learned that the cultural
differences --which at first seemed nil-- are much more than meets
the eye. Now, after years of living here with this new kind of
"honesty" and "candour", I imagine people think of me as nothing
more than just an "extremely outspoken" person...

-- Ron

I'll take candor any time!  It's no secret that I have no tact.

I'd rather tell it like it is.  If the person reacts badly to it I try to
be quick to reassure them.

Jim.

Bob,

There is a difference between not having any tact, and being crass, loud, and
demeaning.

...

Jim. 

    I think honesty is a subject that should be discussed every now
    and again.  This note sort of stopped in September of 1986.  It
    is now January of '88 so maybe we can bring it up again.
    
    The note began discussing honesty in relationships...and at times
    went on to general honesty.
    
    One thing that was brought up was motivation.  If dishonesty is
    convenient for me I think I should avoid it.  If dishonesty (white
    lies) is used to prevent pain or embarrassment I think it might
    be the best way to go.
    
    I have found I am being honest...but it is difficult and it
    is not an automatic response.  I have to go over the situation in
    my mind and go back to the issue with the individual or individuals
    involved.
             
    The one area that I have been successful is being honest with myself...
    maybe that is a major step.  
    
    Some of the people who replied in '86 talked about how they were
    honest and found it did not work so they changed...has anyone ever
    changed the other way...from white lies and dishonest to greater
    truth?

    Do you mean like from 'I'd really love to go to the dance with
    you, but I have to visit my grandmother in the rest home' to
    'Look lizard-lips, I don't want to go out with you'? Or do you
    mean 'You know when I said that I wasn't ready for a serious
    relationship, I really meant to tell you that I'm married'?
    
    Bob Mc being_silly

    Sensitive topic, this. I've always considered myself an honest person.
    If asked a direct question I may hedge, or refuse to answer, but
    I can seldom lie outright (no career in the CIA for me!). I hate
    being lied to more than anything else I can think of. (I'm talking
    lies about facts, here, not the "white lies" of social situations.)
    
    And yet, and yet... While I would not lie to a direct question about,
    say, my beliefs concerning the value of human life, I do tend
    to be reticent about such things in casual conversation. This
    means that if the subject comes up over dinner at a friend's house,
    I may just nod and make neutral remarks to avoid causing tension
    at dinner - and thus perhaps leave the impression that I agree with
    something when in fact I do not. 

    What I find even more damaging, though, is the tendency to lie to
    myself. Over the years I've often found myself concealing my true
    feelings about something because I feared that if I admitted them
    I would have to do something about it, and I wasn't... quite...
    ready. At first it didn't seem like *lying* exactly; I was just
    giving myself time to think about whatever caused the dissatisfaction.
    But the months and years would pass, and one day I would realize
    that I had *hated* my job for a year or more, and couldn't stand
    it another minute. 
    
    Re relationships: I agree that you shouldn't try to confess everything,
    if only because then you'd have nothing to talk about! (Sorry...)
    The trick is, deciding which things can be kept to yourself without
    festering, and which need to be dealt with - and when. Someone who
    has suffered an emotionally damaging experience may want to inform
    new friends/SOs about it, but probably not on the first meeting;
    deciding just when the relationship is at the right stage to bring
    up such things can be difficult. 
    
    And then there are the little resentments that build up in daily
    life. You may not think it worth while to admit that thus-and-such
    an event has got you boiling mad, but if you keep it secret while
    still being upset about it, one day you will probably explode. At
    what point does keeping your mouth shut stop being diplomatic and
    start being dishonest?
    
    -b

    Hi!  This is one of my first entrys into this conference.  I hope to
    become more active for a lot of reasons.
    
    I have encountered changes in my life that have resulted in my going
    from lies and dishonesty to greater honesty.  Interesting set of
    problems.
    
    White lies and social lies is how it started.  Lies to protect a
    friend or my SO from situations or emotions that should be avoided.
     I would make the dicision as to wheather this person needed to
    be protected (first mistake, as ONLY the person in question can
    determine that!).  A good example of that, would be, say your cat
    dies and you see it in the road.  You recover the body and bury
    it and convince your SO that the cat ran away.  All very good and
    for justified reasons...   ...and a lie.

As time went on it became easier to lie to protect others.  It also became
apparent that lies could protect me.  From there it escalated even further.
Lies could be used for personal gain.  While this is happening I am losing
my self respect and that of my SO (as she can not 'see' these lies she must
be a 'fool').  This feeling led to malisious(sp?) lies that I will not
detail here.

All of this came out in the open and my SO and myself realized that the
problem is within both of us.  Me for the lies her for seeing them and
ignoring them (thus feeding the justification for them).

The extream, that I have currently adopted (to some extent) of *never*
telling a lie, is also very damaging and hard to live with  (ie: "Oh!,
the cat is dead; laying out there in the road...")  As much as people
do not want to be lied to, in some areas they also do not want to know
the truth.

Having to deal with 're-learning' when to lie and when to not is a real
frustrating thing to have to do as an adult, but I am working at it.

Another area that complicates all of this is when people ask questions
that contain what is known as 'Meta-messages'.  This is where you ask
one question but mean something totaly different.  Good examples are
"How do I look tonight?"  Some people *really* want to know 'how they
look', others don't want the truth, they want a compliment, so the "How do
I look tonight?" translates into "Say some nice about my appearance, please."

Many of the 'meta-message' type comments may say "Please Lie To Me!!".  It
can be hard to read these right and can cause trouble if read wrong.  How
many times have you passed somebody in the hall and said "How ya doin'?"
How many times did you *REALLY* want to know?

As an aside, if you want to have a little fun.  The next time someone asks
you that, in passing, say something like this:  "Gawd! I'm feeling lousy!
the job is getting on my nerves and I can't sleep at night..."

The reactions are great.  Kinda like the dog that chases cars and finally
catches one, now what does he do????  People do not want a true answer to
that question and are floored when they get one!

Anywho, enought rambling for one note.
jim

    

RE: .24

Wow!

I used to be a complusive liar.  When I was a kid, it wasn't healthy to give a
full straight answer to a question.  I pretty well have stopped lying, but
sometimes it take a couple questions to get usefull information. Sometimes I am
just downright uncommunicative.

I have found that when I want to lie, either for my own good, or for someone
else's good, that a good practice is to say what you are thinking and feeling,
why you feel motivated to lie, and then tell the truth. 

There is also the idea of saying, 'this is for your information only!' (do not
act or react to it), for when you want to tell the truth, to share, or inform
someone of something they need to know, but they should act as if they do not
know it.   I have gotten mixed results.

I have tried the Fifth Ammendment, and it doesn't work well.  Usually I get the
reaction, 'whaddya mean ya won't tell me???' (how dare you).

Jim.

    Someone famous or maybe not_so_famous once said ......speak the
    truth and be honest ....and the truth shall set you free..... (or
    something like that).  Not so.
    
    However, a more pragmatic expression would be ... "it's the proper
    use of the truth that will help you survive."  
    
    "Freedom" has nothing to do with being honest and speaking the truth.
    
    
    
    

RE: 'Truth shall set you free'

I have a poster which I like very much.  It says:

The Truth shall set you free,



But first it will put you through the wringer!



The picture is one of a Raggedy Ann type doll being fed through an old fashioned
clothes wringer; the doll has a very pained, wry expression on it's face. :-} 

Jim.

                          HONESTY
    
    It is much better to suffer for the truth than to rewarded for a
    lie.
    
                        Ray