Conference quark::human_relations-v1

re: .1

Thanks.  I'm more interested in seeing something like a list of
all the possible factors that might make someone's relationship
succeed or fail, however.  Self-help books tend to focus on the
few factors that either fit the biases of the authors or that
derive from the popular fad$ of the day.

A big survey-type study sounded like a good possibility for two
reasons:
	1.  the researchers aren't supposed to have a vested
	    interest in how the questions get answered (they
	    aren't claiming to know "how to" ahead of time)
	2.  they tend to ask questions that will be relevant
	    to people on "the fringe" as well as to people in
	    the middle of the bell curve, just to get a good
	    statistical sample
Checking a couple of bookstores didn't turn up any books like
this though.  I was hoping some people here might have seen one
or two (hopefully outside a university library!).

    I doubt you're going to find a book that lists "all the possible
    factors that might make someone's relationship succeed or fail"
    because the possible factors are practically infinite, and are 
    even perceived differently by different people at different times.
    
    What about the Golden Rule?  If you never break that, then if a
    relationship DOES fail, you know you've done your best and isn't
    that really all you can do?  You certainly can never force anyone
    to "like you" or "stay with you".  You can't create love, you can
    only recognize it, encourage it, return it or not.
    
    Rationalizations for breaking this rule run the gamut, the most
    common one being "how do I know that just because I don't like
    it, doesn't mean he/she doesn't like it?".  If you honestly feel
    stuck in this question, then look at the broader aspects of the
    situation, i.e:
    
           "She went out with Tom so I can go out with Sue"
    
    can be more generally appraised to be:
    
           "She went out with a friend but I'm considering
            going out with a potential partner"  
    
    so that you can REALLY ask yourself,
    
           "Would I like it if SHE went out with a potential 
            partner?"
    
    I truly believe we inflict lots of unnecessary pain on ourselves
    simply by not realizing that we are merely in conflict between what
    we want to do, and what we know we should do.  This situation produces
    all kinds of trouble for us and when we're caught in the clinch,
    we're not only guilty of the offense, but also embarassed because
    we pretty much KNEW what we were doing but dared to hope we could
    get away with it.
                                                   
    But the closest two books I can think of are the two Hite Reports,
    one on men, one on women.  I know everybody dragged Shere Hite into
    the mud for not being "scientific" but I think that's ridiculous.
    Her books are collections of many responses to many questions, and
    they are the only such collections of that magnitude.  "Scientific"
    or not, you won't find this many people answering this many questions
    anywhere else.  And Shere Hite does not translate or explain or
    use these answers as proof of any theories of hers at all - she
    merely presents them and you think what you want.  
    
    Sometimes I'd like to ask a random sampling of a few hundred or
    thousand people what they really think of, say, marriage today
    and I know I never can, but I know someone who did - Shere Hite.
               
    Sandy

    The best book I've seen is called "Intimate Enemies" and I can't
    remember the author, but it's by a couple of therapists that, to
    make a long story short, studied something like 50 marriages that
    externally appeared to be "perfect". They found that all but 2 were
    emotionally divorced. This suprising discovery led them to rearranged
    by quite a bit what they were teaching people and couples that they
    were helping. The book is about what makes up an emotionally healthy
    marriage based on their studies and observations of real people.
    In a nutshell, it's about having fighting be OK as long
    as it's fair - rules, etc., and doesn't degenerate into a nuclear
    exchange where the world gets distroyed. I read a large portion
    of it, but my soon-to-be-ex wasn't interested so it didn't help
    us because it's not a concept that can be implemented by one side.

Try the book, _Please Understand Me_.  I think it will have what you are
looking for.  I'll enter the author's name and book description later, as
it's at home right now.


							Terza

Re:-.1

The book is by David Keirsey and Marilyn Bates.  It describes different
character types and temperaments and the implications for relationships.
Interesting reading.


							Terza

    On the other hand, if what you are looking for is the answer to
    the question "What external factors correlate with successful
    marriages?" where "success" is defined as "no divorce", there
    is data (alas, I don't remember where) along the following lines:
    
    	The later you marry, the less likely a divorce is.
    	The more years of education you have, ditto.
    	The more financially secure you are, ditto.
    
    (The astute observer may notice the three are not totally
    un-corelated)
    
    So if you marry at 35 with a Phd while working at DEC to a
    similiar person, the odds are good; if you marry at 17 after
    dropping out of school while you are unemployed, the odds
    are bad.

    Like it said in Hitchhiker's_Guide_to_the_Galaxy, these studies
    spend lots of money only to confirm common sense.
    
    			-John Bishop

re: .7

>    On the other hand, if what you are looking for is the answer to

I'm not looking for "the answer", which is why I am trying to steer
clear of the "how to" books.  I'm more interested in seeing what all
"the questions" are (not all, really, but enough different ones that
more perspectives than just mine or some particular expert's are
covered).  The reason for asking is that I would like to come up
with some sort of tool that people could use to look at past or
current relationships (of any kind) that were/are "successful" and
see what common factors hold true for them.  That might help you
"find your own answers" instead of having to rely on an "expert" to
tell you.

    Try PEOPLEMAKING by Virginia Satir.  This book deals more with family
    relationships than anything, but after all 1+1=FAMILY quite often.
    The principles delineated are universally applicable to relationships.
    The book is a milestone in the area of family therapy (what is a
    family, but a series of relationships to each other and the world)
    aimed at the "popular press" reader.  Her earlier book, CONJOINT
    FAMILY THERAPY, is *the* milestone work in the field.