Conference quark::human_relations-v1

re .0:
>	There's a persistent unwritten rule  in  parts  of
>	our  society  that  you  should  not "date" or get
>	involved (whatever that means) with  someone  from
>	the  office.

Why not?  Like anything else, it works if you know how to deal with it.
There are a number of examples here in HL of people involved with each other
to various degrees.  It does cause some small problems, but on the whole
it's nicer.
					-- hal

    
    I have very mixed feelings about this topic.  Part of me says that
    anywhere you meet a person that you are attracted to should be o.k..
    like you stated some of us have little time left over from work
    to socialize... but there is another part of me that says too much
    of a good thing can be a real bummer.  I am a person that requires
    a lot of space.. if I start to feel stifled in a relationship and
    I can't get some good honest communication going with the person I
    feel is doing the stifling then I make tracks.... well making tracks
    is not so easy when you work so closely with someone.  
    
    I personally don't see myself as spending 8+ hours a day working
    with someone only to spend X amount more hours of that day talking
    about work.  It is only natural sometimes that what we do at work
    invades our topics of conversation outside of work; If you are
    with a person that does not do the same thing all day that you do
    it is easier to share your day and find things of interest in what
    one another has to say.  That is how I find it anyway.
    
    If a bulldozer runs over me one of these fine days and I find myself
    hopelessly attracted to someone I work with, enough that I find myself
    wanting to get to know that person better, then I guess I will have
    little choice but to investigate the possibility of a relationship.
    But basically I think I would have to say it is better to stay away
    from "in house" relationships.
    
    later, gailann
    
    
    

    There is a formal Personnel Policy to the effect that the two spouses
    of a marriage can not work in the same cost center. (As a manager,
    I tend to interpret the intent, not just the letter, of this policy.)
    
    On the other hand, after I had been at DEC for two years, it seemed
    wiser to get my wife to also join DEC. So for the last 14 years,
    we both understand how come we can't get DEC out from under our
    skin seven days a week.
    
    Bottom line--not a good idea to be in the same "group" as your partner,
    but it's been pretty good to both be in the same company.

    Re -1:  Where?  I've never seen such a policy.  There is a policy
    that says relatives may not have jobs where one party could directly
    affect the other (manager-employee or one party working in personnel).
    
    We have several married couples working in the same cost center
    in our district.

DECcouples seems to be a part of the DEC culture.  My wife often feels out of
place as the only non-DEC person at DEC gatherings, and often doesn't go as a
result.

We recently visited a secret enclave set up in the wilds, where about half of
the total employees in the group of 100 or so people were married to each
other.  This may be the case there because this group was set up quickly,
and couples where both spouses could be offered jobs in the new organization
might have been more willing to leave New England and make new homes in the
wilderness.  :-)

/john

    You can DECmate (the use the topic term), if you set up a LOT of
    rules before hand.
    
    I am dating (and have dated) a number of men from DEC. I have dated 
    a number of men who were not.  I prefer to date from within DEC, because
    if I do have to work late, or have a large system problem, they
    too are DECies and {usually} understand.
    
    However, if you are going to date a DECie, be they male or female
    I would suggest setting up a LOT of rules before hand.  I made the
    mistake of not doing that once and paid the price... some of the
    rules we follow are:
    
    	- No private MAIL (VAX or DEC) between us (we do cheat a little)
    
    	- No private PHONE between us
    
    	- If we want to talk to one another we dial a real phone, or
          we drive to see the person in person
    
    	- If we get angry with one another, then we sit down face to
    	  face with each other and talk about it, we DON'T let it fester
    	  in our mind until we have lost contact with reality
    
    	- We realize that each one of us has a personal life, and we
    	  make sure that is honored.  Whether it be him working until
    	  11:00 pm because he has a design to bring in, or me working
    	  on specs to give to a programmer... or us just being by
    	  ourselves.
    
    I also agree with the dating/marrying whatever not be in the same
    cost center - and I think it should extend if possible to not even
    being in the same building - [its bad enough if you break up that
    you have to be on the same net 8-)...]... I think you need that space
    to be able to grow, and live. 
    
    I think dating within DEC can be done, you just have to work a little
    harder at it.
    
    GLK
    

    Well, I DO read the policy manual.  Section 6.04 says:
    
    		ASSIGNMENT OF EMPLOYEES WHO ARE RELATED
    
    POLICY
    
    It is the Company's policy that employees who are related will not
    be assigned to the same work group.  The Company's interest is to
    promote an environment in which business decisions are made free
    from the effect of family relationships.  Likewise employees should
    not accept or remain in positions in which a family relationship
    with another employee could impact their ability to make decisions
    in an objective manner.
    
    PRACTICE
    
    For purpose of this policy, family relations are defined as parent,
    spouse, child, sister, brother, stepparent, foster parent, guardian,
    in-law, grandchild or grandparent.  Specifically, related employees
    will not be assigned to positions such as:
    
    	o Direct supervision of one another.
    
    	o Dependent responsibilities i.e. Purchasing and Accounts Payable.
    
    	o Disbursement of petty cash to one another, or
    
    	o Access to privileged or confidential information about one
    	  another.
    
    It is understood that the examples contained within this policy
    may not precisely cover every situation which arises.  The line
    manager and the Personnel Department are responsible for reviewing
    all applications of this policy on a case by case basis.  Employees
    who feel they may be subject to the provisions of this policy should
    bring it to their manager's attention.  Additional points are covered
    in policies 6.06, Conflict of Interest and 6.12, Confidentiality.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Note that NOWHERE does the policy prohibit relatives from working
    in the same cost center.  It's time this myth was laid to rest.

The myth is quite understandable, since the policy does say "will not be
assigned to the same work group" which is often the same as "cost center."

"Work group" is a rather nebulous term, which allows this policy to be applied
reasonably by reasonable managers (and at whim by unreasonable ones).

In the case of fairly large cost centers with multiple sub-organizations
people can be in the same cost center but not in the same work group.  My
current cost center has only twelve people, all working on one project.

My first cost center, ten years ago, probably had about the same number of
people, but they were almost all working on separate projects.

On the other hand, people in separate cost centers could be considered to be
in the same work group.  I would think it would be a violation of the policy
(and reasonable to avoid) to have a tech writer in the same work group as the
engineer spouse.

/john

RE: .8
    
    Gale, my rule has ALWAYS been not if we share either the same cost
    center or location code.  Reasons:
    
    1.  I don't like the idea of working with someone 60 hours a week, then
        spending all/some time with the person outside work.  Seems like
        we'd get tired of each other.  The ol' space thing.
    
    2.  The second reason is that if it doesn't last, I might be
        uncomfortable working with the person after the relationship has
        ended.  That would of course depend heavily on HOW the breakup
        occurred.
    
    Neither of the above is _guaranteed_ to be a problem, but for me
    either _might_ be a problem.

    OK.  Here's a question:
    
    My wife Lorraine graduated from U-Lowell yesterday with a B.S.C.S.  One
    group in this plant has some new-hire req's.  It is not my group, but a
    group that I have worked very closely with on some projects, and
    probably will do so in the future. 
    
    She will probably want to look into a position elsewhere (probably ZKO
    or MLO), but using my case for a moment as a hypothetical situation,
    would it be appropriate for that group to hire her? 

    Looking at it personally, we will both do better if she works at
    another site.  Every site seems to have its own peculiar set of
    assumptions and work attitudes.  Working at different sites lets
    us bring the richness of two very different sets of work experiences
    together.  If we both worked at APO in roughly the same area, both
    of our perceptions of the company could very quickly become pretty
    stagnant.  At least that's the theory :-) (and what my gut tells me).
    
    						Ralph

My wife works in a different plant than I do (few places need both compiler
developers and metallurgists).  There have been as many as 3 couples
at a time in my cost center where everyone was married.  If you include
couples who haven't bothered with a marriage license or ceremony, the
figures are even higher.

While I believe this can cause extra pressures on most marriages, it
seems to work out pretty well around here.  Because of my experiences
in my work environment, this discussion has struck me as a little dramatic
at times.  I haven't interviewed anyone where the relevant policy applies,
but unless you are talking about a situation where one of you is going
to be supervising the other (and I am not talking about transitory,
"dotted-line" relationships), your personal relationship should not
matter very much to the group with open reqs.  I would not want to have
artificial criteria (beyond the existing policy) applied if I were
interviewing with a group distantly related to my wife's group.

(And we do have a few marriages between individuals who are in cost
centers which are related to each other, too).

				Not to belittle the question,
				/AHM

    this topic strikes pretty close to home for me - I met my wife when
    we both worked for the same (relatively small) OEM, in totally
    unrelated job functions (she was part of the office staff, I was
    developing software) but with desks literally within 10 feet of
    one another.  Now she may be looking for a tech writing job within
    Digital after our new baby arrives, and there are some open reqs
    for RSX writers (I'm in RSX engineering - different cost centers,
    but exactly the situation John Covert mentioned).
    
    My own belief is that we would be quite happy and successful working
    that closely together - we married because we wanted to share our
    lives, if we total up our activities the time spent working is probably
    the largest single component so why not share that too?
    
    My interpretation of the Personnel Policy is that it clearly addresses
    potential conflicts of interest, but does not really consider the
    subjective influence of the relationship on working together.  The
    specific issues (and related topics) referenced in the Policy deal
    with confidentiality, objectivity (in a business sense), and potential
    collusion (I'd hope that auditors would object to one spouse in
    Accounts Payable authorizing Disbursements by the other one!). 

    To assume that problems would be caused by having a couple working
    together seems to me to be taking an extremely negative view of
    the relationship!  Personally, I feel that it enriches my life to
    be able to better share two important parts of it (job and marriage,
    in whatever order) with the person most important to me.
    
    (Incidentally, we have enjoyed sharing experiences the past few
    months, with Christy working on contract for Honeywell she comes
    home and tells stories about their stone-age stand-alone electronic 
    abucuses while enjoying my tales of netland - it gives us both a better
    perspective!)
    
    My recommendation for Ralph's question in .12 would be certainly,
    by all means if you both feel comfortable with the prospect of working
    that closely together then give it a try.  Best case would be each
    of the interactions (work and marriage) reinforces the other, worst
    case is they each negatively impact the other.  Watch for danger
    signs, take steps to fix problems before they get big - I don't
    see why there's any more risk then in any other situation.  But
    it depends on the particular individuals involved, their maturity
    and styles, etc.  -  Good Luck!
    
    

    Well, the line I happen to be on at the moment is somewhat noisy
    so bear with any weird characters...
    
    I have had a few relationships with some women at DEC. For the most
    part I would have to say they were good relationships. Chances are
    that a woman who works for DEC is going to have a lot of things
    in common with me. I will say that the women I have dated have worked
    in different buildings.
    
    The woman I am currently seeing is also an employee here at DEC.
    We have pretty much followed the guide lines that Gail had previously
    mentioned. We send mail to each other but nothing 'hot & heavy'.
    The mail exchanged is usually no more than what is sent around the
    enet. We don't PHONE each other (mostly because neither one of us
    cares for the VMS phone utility) and both of us have the tendency
    to be working in the software lab away from a dial-type phone.
    
    The time we spend together is fun. Work is not discussed at great
    lengths, but since we both spend 40+ hours at our jobs, it would
    be kind of silly to ignore the subject all together.
    
    If someone tickles your fancy, then go ahead, give it a whirl. You
    never know what might happen. You might just meet the person of
    your dreams.
    
    Mike

    Not only have the three women I've had relationships with
    since I've been at DEC been Digits, two of them work(ed)
    only a short distance away.  I've had no problems with them
    that I wouldn't have had otherwise.
    
    But then, I spend a lot of time with co-group members outside
    of work in other ways without having problems: the people I go
    canoeing or kayaking with are co-workers, the people I go to
    dinner and movies with are co-workers.  Even when I go elsewhere
    most of the people I meet are Digits (I live in New England
    after all).
    
    I think of my group (Technical Languages) as a village I live in.
    People move in and out, there's a local government, we all work
    on much the same kind of thing, we share a lot of common attributes
    (higher education, baby-boom birth, liking for chinese food...).
    People have lived in villages for millenia.  I just wish mine
    was in a less urban environment!
    
    		-John Bishop

re: .17,

	Where is this fabulous village you speak of?  Are you in New Hampster
    or can one find this sort of group of DECcie friends around the Northboro
    Mass. area?

	I enjoy all of these things and know some other people who do too, but
    I have yet to get in on a group of DECcie villagers such as this.  My former
    group (in Stow) seldom did much together because there was such a wide
    range of interests among them that all of them together made for a somewhat
    incompatable group.

	I suppose I haven't yet given my new group here in Marlboro a fair
    chance to offer these things, but was curious how a "village" such as this
    operates (i.e. How does it get started?  How do you initiate new members
    without alienating old ones? etc.).

								-davo

    John and I are in ZK (Nashua, NH).  I agree with him - I've been
    with this group for eight years (actually IN the group for three),
    and it really is a community of friends - management included!
    However, we're really a bunch of overlapping smaller communities
    - I do some of the things that John does, but I don't go kayaking,
    etc.  When someone new comes in, we invite them to dinner, and find
    out what their interests are.  We don't alienate old friends - we
    just make new ones!
    
    Seriously, I believe Technical Languages and Environments (our full
    name) to be just about the best software engineering organization
    in the company to work for.  I wouldn't even THINK of going anywhere
    else!
    					Steve

    RE: .5  "secret enclave set up in the wilds" ??
            leave New England to live in the wilderness???
    
    	    Digital is setting up secret enclaves in the wilderness?
    	    or did I miss something.
    
    Bob

    re: .5
        .20  I'd be very interested in the answer to that
             one.
    
    re: .16  From an avid nature person, I'm very impressed by
             your answers, Bob.  You definitely have your head
             on straight

    
    I believe .5 was kidding....  :-) 
    I better read that stuff on notes symbols I have somewhere.

    Adding my two cents after the fact ....
    
    I'm married to a DECie (he was here first -- I came the DEC after
    the marriage).  We work at different sites, but travel together.
    Our jobs are really related.  I find it wonderful -- we can understand
    more about each other's work experiences when we has a common base.
    And although we talk shop in the car a lot, I don't find we talk
    shop much more than before.
    
    Also, my personal style is NOT to socialize very much with ANYONE
    I work with.  I've always made a distinction between my professional
    life and my social life.  Of course, this does eliminate a lot of
    potential friends from my social circle, but I prefer to walk away
    from the job at the end of the day/week.  Friendships are complicated
    enough without adding work relationship issues to them.
    
    G

    Do most people put SO's (non-married couples) in the same category
    as married couples?  Or is this the discretionary aspect?
    
    In the early stages of the relationship I am in, we used the electronic
    mail system heavily.  Now we mostly use it for one-liners, updates,
    and so forth.  My rationale for using it was that I don't tend to
    engage in a lot of socializing or chit-chat around the group, and
    that spending 20 minutes a day on the net instead of running my
    mouth with someone in my group was my choice.
    
    For the people who made rules about not using it, what was your
    rationale?  Were you trying to protect DEC resources, or trying
    to protect your relationship from running on no personal contact.
    
    We have also used the relationship to benefit our work-- we have
    gotten conference rooms for the other person in a pinch, helped
    one another with net or PC problems, and occasionally even helped
    out someone in the other person's group with a problem which just
    happened to fall in our area of specialization.
    
    In our case I think there has been value added for DEC.  Building
    a network has been an extremely valuable way for me to learn about
    and have access to DEC resources.  My SO is one part of that network,
    and I'm glad that we are in different facilities!    

    I am married to a wonderful guy and have been for the past four
    years.  We met here at work and lived together for awhile before
    we took the plunge.
    We work in different departments on opposite sides of the building.
    (Though for Burlington that isn't saying much, since the plant isn't
    that big)
    We use our terminals to send info back and forth, though nothing
    that we wouldn't send to anyone... (most of the time)
    Work is such a big part of our live's it is impossible not to discuss
    it.  It feels good to have someone who understands the business
    to discuss problems and bounce idea's off of.
    
    We have six couples that we consider good friends and do most 
    everything with.  At least one half of each couple is a Digital
    employee.  Work comes up sometimes, but we have so much else in
    common it is not a major topic everytime we are together.
    
    So, here's one couple that found that you can work together forty
    hours a week and still have a very enjoyable relationship.
     

    My wife and I just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary this
    past June.  We are both DECies, I for about 7 years and Ande for
    just over 5.  We have worked both at the same location and at different
    locations even though we commute together, due to the distance (70
    miles one way).  We have found that we can totally separate our
    professional lives and our personal lives such that we have worked
    on the same project for several years.  I was a developer for
    WPS-PLUS/ALL-IN-1 and she a technical writer for the ALL-IN-1 Users
    Manual, a two volume set).  We had to attend many meetings together
    both here in the US and in Reading, England.  Due to our ability
    to separate work form family, we have been able to enjoy the "forced"
    traveling together on company business as well as can fully understand
    the pressure either of us are under at any given moment.  By being
    so closely linked project wise, we know when to cheer the other
    one up and/or keep away to allow us to cope with schedules etc.
    
    One thing we both very much enjoy is having lunch together.  We
    use this time to "escape" from work and talk over personal issues
    and/or make plans for that evening or the upcoming weekent or whatever.
    Currently we are working in separate sites, but come next month,
    the ZK DECmates will again be seen together, but this time as MK
    DECmates.
    
    We know many other couples here and they have much the same view
    as we do.  Basically if you can separate your job from your personal
    life, you work very well together.  If you can't, then you'd better
    work apart.
    
    /TEB

    I'd just like to reply to the person who said dating in DEC can
    be done.  Well your absolutly right, as a matter of fact I have
    an original story that just goes to prove the power and glory of
    love can and will conquer no matter where you are.
    
    I met my sweetheart over the terminal through VAXmail. Yes, it's
    true! Not knowing what each one looked like and not even caring
    because we began a friendship by communication over electronic mail!
    
    Well, as the story goes, when we finally met it was love at first
    sighting for me, and I loved him then and I love him now and always
    will.  So you see, it can happen and it will happen probably again
    and again. And for all of you DECcies that believe in true love
    go for it because communication is all it takes ( and a good PC)!
    
    Patti

    
    
    	RE: .27
    
    	Not to take anything away from your success but "Terminal Romance"
    	has been going on for quite some time.. Many couples are married
    	now.. 
    
    	For those interested in starting a terminal romance, see 
    	HIT::SINGLES for more info.
    
    							mike
    						SINGLES Moderator

    re:.27
    
    Sounds familiar.
    
    --- jerry

    yep... happened to me too_:-)

    
    another terminal type ending!!!
    
    Mrs. RKE 
    

        After 18  months  at 3.5K miles apart, and 6 months (yesterday)
        married, add another two!
        
        :*)

    
    I agree with you!  My Husband works first and I work second, both
    in different groups.  It works out quite well, especially with
    things like Insurance etc......................