Conference bookie::movies

  There was an interesting story about the OK coral in the Boston Globe about a
week ago inspired by the two movies coming out concerning the Earp brothers and
the fight in question. The gist of the story was that Hollywood continues to
white wash the Earps and paint their adversaries in a dim light even though
they were both equally to blame for the dispute. I won't put a spoiler warning
because this is the real story, not the one usually portrayed in the movies or
on TV. 

  The story told by the Globe says that the Earps were born in Illinois prior
to the Civil War. The older brothers fought in the war for the Union then moved
west taking jobs as law men in western towns. 

  It went on to say that in those towns there was usually a conflict between
the ranchers who tended to be Southern Democrats and the miners who tended to
be Union Republicans. Ringo and the Clatons were examples of the Southern
Democrat ranchers and the Earps, along with other groups like the Pinkertons,
were basically hired guns for big business interests who were lawmen only
because the businessmen controlled the towns.

  Wyatt worked as a lawman in Dodge City Kansas (site of Gunsmoke) but had to
leave town after being accused of being a horse thief. He worked his way west
and eventually ended up in Tombstone Arizona with his brothers. 

  After the famous gunfight, in which several of the ranchers were killed, his
brothers were ambushed and one was killed. Wyatt essentially murdered his
brothers killer then took off to California. He traveled the west coast from
Southern California to Alaska eventually settling in L.A. where he died in
1929. 

  As for the gunfight itself, it lasted only 30 seconds as apposed to the
longer times shown in most movies. A documentary I saw once explained that the
reasons the Earps won was because they entered the coral, just as the ranchers
were leaving, ordered them to drop their guns, and when they refused the Earps
and Doc Holiday started blasting. The startled ranchers barely had time to draw
their weapons. 

  Also, many accounts claim that the fight was over the fact that the ranchers
refused to give up their weapons when they came to town but the report I saw
said that it was really over the fact that they refused to tie up their horses
when entering the salon. 

  The curious animals would then walk up on the side walk and look into the
windows to see where their riders had gone, depositing fertilizer on the wooden
planks as they stood gazing into the windows. The more urban minded northerners
took offense at this and dispatched the Earps to control this and other rowdy
behavior which eventually escalated into the famous gunfight.

  George 

        If you're interested in the OK corral and Tombstone, I can
        recommend two books on te subject, one from a pro-Earp stance,
        and one taht tries to be even-handed. I'm afraid I can't
        recommend one from a cowboy partisan, at least not a recent one.
        Billy Breckenridge, who was a Tombstone deputy, wrote a book
        called "Helldorado" in 1928 that comes close, I suppose.
        
        The two books I have are Glenn G. Boyer's just released "Wyatt
        Earp's Tombstone Vendetta" and Paula Mitchell Marks' "And Die in
        the West" (1989). Boyer is probably the foremost authority on
        the Earp's and their chief apologist. Marks is a new-comer to
        the field. She strives to draw together all the existing sources
        and to tell a plausible version of what happened. Both books
        would make great movies or mini-series.
        
        Even Boyer's book doesn't whitewash the Earps nearly as much as
        any of the movies or TV shows I've seen. On the other hand, I
        haven't seen any source that was as easy as 412.1 seems to
        indiacte the Globe article was on Ringo or even the Clantons. To
        call them ranchers is a bit generous. It leaves out their
        profession as rustlers, which doesn't seem to be easily
        deniable. 
        
        That the fueding still goes on to this day isn't too surprising.
        As the previous reply points out, the lines in most western
        towns were drawn between the cityfied Northern Republicans and
        the rural Southern Democrats. I would have categorized it more
        as a conflict between the gamblers on the one side and the
        cowboys on the other, rather than miners and ranchers. The mine
        owners and cattlemen were both fairly big businesses and tied
        with Pinkertons, Wells Fargo and the vigillence committees. The
        really strong North/South Republican/Democrat lines were clearer
        among the most independant elements: gamblers like the Earps and
        cowboys like the Clantons and McLaurys.
        
        Both sides had their outlaws: Doc Holiday and Curly Bill Brocius
        and their lawmen: Virgil Earp and Johnny Beehan. Each had their
        own newspaper: John Clum's Epitaph favoring the Earp faction and
        the Nugget favoring the cowboys. I wouldn't put either side on
        side of "big business" and money'd interests. John Clum rose
        became mayor due to his opposition to the land-grab scam of the
        Townsite crew, and there was Mellon money invested in the
        cowboy's Haven of Galeyville. Big business as involved in both
        sides.
        
        Well, I stop blathering. Suffice it to say that Tombstone's tale
        is full of politics, left-over North/South conflict, sex,
        violence, and corrupt officials and if done with historical
        accuracy would probably be dismissed as pure soap opera. After
        all, Tombstone's most beautiful woman (according to both
        eyewitnesses and surviving pictures) came to town as the wife of
        cowboy partisan, Sheriff Johnny Beehan, and left town as the
        wife of Wyatt Earp, who'd had a wife already when he came to
        town.
        
        I haven't seen the movie yet, and really don't expect it to
        stand up to the reality, but I'm looking forward to it anyway.
        
        JimB.

    
    The movie, which I enjoyed thoroughly and will almost certainly see
    again, implies that the business at the OK Corral (which runs under a
    minute in the movie, I think) was essentially Doc Holliday's fault.
    
    As for whitewashing the Earps, well, sort of, but George Cosmatos is no
    Kurosawa.  It's very much a western in the white-hat v. black-hat vein,
    not like Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven.
    
    Also, marvelously scored by Bruce Broughton.  Boy, can he score
    Westerns.
    
    DFW

        The movie started out on my bad side, turning the Cowboys into
        an orgainized crime family with their own special badge, and
        making Wyatt want to put down his gun and leave his law
        enforcement days behind. Talk about totally Hollywood and and
        ahistorical!
        
        BUT... after that really lousy premise and setup, they did a
        wonderful job, I thought. Just about everyone who appeared in
        the film was historical (the male actor was the only person in
        Tombstone I didn't recognize), and a large number of the
        incidents were identifiable historically (excepting only the
        opening scene in Mexico). Val Kilmer's Doc Holiday was great!
        Not quite the real Doc, but close and with real character.
        
        They did several cute bits that indicate that someone did their
        reasearch. The caricature of Billy Breckenridge had me giggling
        much to the confusion of everyone near me, as did the notion that
        Josie was posing for "That Picture" in Cadimus Fly's shop when
        the gunfight started. Don't worry, I don't expect anyone but a
        Tombstone enthusiast to know either of these.
        
        They can pretty much be forgiven for what they did in order to
        save time. To show what Doc and Ike were really arguing over the
        night before the shootout would have taken a Lot of setup. In 25
        words or less, Ike most probably snapped that he wasn't really
        going to lead Wyatt to the cowboys who held up te stage, he was
        going to lead him into a trap at a lonely spot, and Doc shot
        back, 'that's all right, we did that to you old man!' But for
        that exchange to work you've got to show two holdups, the hunt
        for both sets of robbers, the attempt to frame Doc for one of
        them and Ike and Wyatt's deal, the killing of Old Man Clanton,
        and on and on.
        
        Too too complex. The essence is that Doc was a hothead and a
        liability to the gamblers, and Ike was a hothead and a liability
        to the cowboys and the two of them spitting at each other got a
        buch of people killed. The movie does that. Many other things
        got elided similarly. The result is that most of the right
        people do most of the right things or something similar for
        mostly the right reasons although incidents that happened over a
        period of months may collapse to happen in the same evening.
        
        The real story is richer and far more interesting, but Hollywood
        has a hard time grasping realistic dramma, and favors short
        simple mythic tales with clear cut lines.
        
        I liked the movie and will go back for the details and such.
        
        JimB.

    I saw a trailer for another 'western' film due out this summer.
    It stars Kevin (be still my heart) Costner. It's called (of all things)
    "Wyatt Earp." Both times I've seen this trailer, I thought it was
    for "Tombstone".
    
    Jodi-

        Yuh, I keep hoping that Wyatt Earp will be more factual than
        Tombstone. It's a really great story if you don't muck it up,
        too much. The problem is it wants to be the size of the Russian
        War and Peace or at least the Seven Musketeers.
        
        JimB.

    
    	What other movies has the actress who played Josie made ?
    
    	Bill

    Dana Delany was in _Housesitter_ with Steve Martin.
    
    
    I found _Tombstone_ to be a collection of scenes rather than a movie. 
    Some of the scenes were well-done, but they didn't all link up.  Also,
    too many minor characters that just clutter up the place.  If the story
    had had a better flow to it, those characters might have been an
    enhancement rather than a distraction.
    
    Val Kilmer made the biggest impact, but then he also had the flashiest
    character.  Powers Boothe really stood out, for some reason.  I felt
    like the movie was really going somewhere whenever he was on screen.

    Some inside filming information, for those of you interested.
    
    
    I have a friend who was an extra in the movie.  Some of the extras
    provided their own horses, guns and clothing.  Alan showed up on the
    set with the boots you saw in the opening credits (the ones with the
    aces on them).  The guy who wore them in the movie (the name escapes
    me) liked them immediately and ordered two pairs to made for him for
    the movie.  Alan was then asked not to wear his during the filming. 
    
    As an extra he was also housed at the same Holiday Inn as the stars.
    Alan decided to acquire the stars autographs.  He was ingenous and
    found an old piece of a log, cleaned it up, got a marker pen and set
    about obtaining signatures.  When he approached Kirt, the comment was
    "Oh, is this the log I have been hearing about.  I was hoping I would
    get to sign it."  Val was not giving his autograph to anyone and
    refused to sign the log.  But Kirt wouldn't have that and pestered him
    into signing the log.   Alan also brought back some of the money that
    was thrown into the air during one of the bar scenes.  I was given one
    of the five dollar bills.  He has lots of interesting stories to tell.
    
    Alan is right now an extra in another western film.  Something to do
    with Indian Jones and a time machine.
    

>    Alan is right now an extra in another western film.  Something to do
>    with Indian Jones and a time machine.
    
Is this gonna be what the 4th indy film is about? Back to the Future meets
Indian Jones???

/Scott

re .7

Dana Delaney is best known for her part in China Beach, for which she won
many an Emmy.


Randy

    RE: Note 168.13 by TNPUBS::NAZZARO
    
    > I watched [Guilty as Sin] on tape last night (after my wife and I went
    > out to the movies to see "Tombstone" for $1.99 at the Lowell flick, but
    > they somehow broke the copy of the movie and had to give us passes).
    
    I was going to try to see this on the big screen in Lowell
    this week, too -- did they say whether they'd have it repaired
    and viewable "soon"?
    
    			dick
    

    We went to the early show, and the guy said it would take him 20
    minutes to a half hour to fix, but in order to show it fo rthe late
    show, they couldn't restart it for us.  So, I think that it sshould be
    OK for tonight, but you might be better off to call.
    
    I've always been impressed by the Lowell Flick.  The people are
    friendly, the theater is always clean, and it's got great popcorn,
    popped on the premises!
    
    NAZZ

    I liked this movie a lot, although I usually do not like westerns and
    I was not familiar with the historical background at all.
    
    BTW, the guy who played the male actor, wasn't he the killer in
    "Death Calm" ?
                                                            
    A.

    Yes, indeed. The estimable Billy Zane. Great in everything from Twin
    Peaks to Memphis Belle to Orlando...everything, that is, except Sniper.
    
    
    Nick

    He was in Twin Peaks ?? In the TV series or in the movie ?
    I saw both but cannot remember him.
    A.

    The series.  He was sorta wooing (oh, what's her name) the girl who
    could tie a knot in a cherry stem with her tongue.
    
    In the later stages of the series.  He was working for her Dad.
    
    
    kim

    hay hay hay what happened to Tombstone. Any way i just wanted to say
    that Val Kilmers performance was outstanding.  It has been stated that
    it was close to the real thing, but regardless he made the movie for
    me.  I have always been a fan of Kilmer since Real Genius.  He does his
    trademark coin thing in pretty much every movie i have seen him in.
     
    Now for a few questions for the historians.
    Was that scene at the lake where Wyat Earped fearlesly dodged bullets
    true. 
    In the movie they made it seem like Doc Holliday's girlfrien or wife
    was trying to kill him or was stupid and thought that he was imortal,
    were either of these the case.
    	Thanks
    	  Scott
    

    Whenever I see a movie that co-stars Bill Paxton, the first thing I ask
    myself is, "Will he die?"  So far, the odds seem about 75% against him
    surviving to the end credits of whatever film he's in.  I won't let you
    know if he beats the odds this time, don't worry.
    
    
    It was an interesting, if somewhat overlong, not-quite-paced-right and
    eensy bit muddled film.  Then again, you have Kurt Russell, Sam Elliot,
    a foppish and pale Val Kilmer, Billy "The purtiest man Ah've ever seen"
    Zane (that's a quote from a bad guy), the aforementioned "Will Bill
    Paxton Die?" drama, and a passle of familiar faces playing various bad guys,
    townsfolks and other such folks.   
    
    As a western, it was all right. Plenty of guns, and slow mo shots of
    heroes on horses two-gunning it with bad guys who fall off their horses
    in slo-mo, too.  As the definitive saga of the Earps, I dunno.  They
    were certainly white-washed just a tiny bit. :)  As the definitive saga
    of the non-drama at the OK Corral, well, it made the shootout somewhat
    exciting.  As a movie, it sort of lost it's way apres shootout at OK
    Corral.  Val Kilmer gets to sweat, drink, and smoke a lot, plus deliver
    all the the good lines although Sam Elliot gets to do his gravelly voiced 
    best as the Earp named Virgil (and the Earp with the most fortunate wife, 
    I guess....).  There were a couple of things I either missed entirely,
    or the movie neglected to point out until after the fact, which made a
    follow on plot thread a little sudden.  (Concerns Wyatt and the Actress
    Who Just Wants to Have Fun).   
    
    Still: 
    
    I wasn't disappointed.  On the other hand, my toes didn't curl, and as
    a western movie, I think Silverado was far and away the better. I did
    think I'd like Tombstone better than I did (and I didn't NOT like it),
    based on comments from usually reliable sources.  It was not bad. It
    was just sometimes a little too full of itself (Look! We're telling a
    Legend here! Wow!), and too little full of actual, uh, flow.  Or
    something.
    
    
    Not a bad rental.  No sex. Perhaps a bit violent for small kids.
    
    **.75 out of ****
    
    
    kim

     Fans of this movie might be interested in renting the laserdisc
     version which, after the movie concludes, contains a presentation
     of 5 deleted scenes from the film with commentary from the director.
     He says that his first cut of the movie was around 3 hours long and
     these 5 scenes were among those cut to trim the length.

     He also presents two theatrical trailers of the movie and points out
     that one brief scene in the trailers did not make the final cut of
     the movie.  He also emphasizes that all "lighting and mustaches" 
     were real in the movie!

     Since the missing 5 scenes contain some spoiler material, I'll discuss
     them after a form feed.

    				- Paul


    Scene 1 -- This scene includes Wyatt Earp and his wife in their room;
    	       Wyatt discovers his wife's stash of laudanum and the two
    	       of them have an argument.  The dialogue in this scene is
    	       pretty hokey.

    Scene 2 -- Chronologically, this scene takes place before Doc Holliday
    	       joins Earp and company to seek revenge on the cowboys.  The
    	       scene looks like it takes place in a barn or shack and is
    	       between him and his girlfriend (I can't remember her name,
    	       but she is played by Joanna Pacula).  Doc is explaining to
    	       her why he's going off and she tries to convince him not
    	       to.  Again, hokey dialogue.

    Scene 3 -- Dang!  I can't for the life of me remember what this is.
    	       I remember it being very short, though.

    Scene 4 -- A fairly important scene, this features Billy Breckinridge
    	       riding up to Earp and his gang shortly after Billy's friend,
    	       Mr. Fabian, is killed.  Basically, he's enlisting to help
    	       out Earp.

    Scene 5 -- Remember the scene in the final cut where the body of
    	       McManus is dragged to the ranch that Earp (and friends)
    	       are staying (the Charlton Heston ranch)?  This missing
    	       scene shows the circumstances under which he was killed.
    	       Basically, he gets tricked into visiting the cowboys'
    	       hideout -- they summon him to come and engage him in a
    	       dialogue, ostensibly to get him to come back and join them
    	       again.  After his refusal, a gun is held to his head and
    	       he's informed, more or less, that his life is over.
    

    When I read .20, l I realized I'd never entered this.  So here it is, long
    after the fact:
================================================================================
Note 412.1                          Tombstone                            1 of 19
7361::MAIEWSKI                                       48 lines  30-DEC-1993 17:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Wyatt worked as a lawman in Dodge City, Kansas (site of Gunsmoke) but had to
leave town after being accused of being a horse thief. He worked his way west
and eventually ended up in Tombstone, Arizona, with his brothers. 

[The movie had Doc showing up in Tombstone soon after the Earps arrived, but in 
actuallity he rode in with them.  Kate arrived later.  BTW, the other Earp
brothers didn't care much for Doc, but tolerated him because he was Wyatt's 
friend.  --Don]

  After the famous gunfight, in which several of the ranchers were killed, his
brothers were ambushed and one was killed. Wyatt essentially murdered his
brother's killer, then took off to California. He traveled the west coast from
Southern California to Alaska eventually settling in L.A. where he died in
1929. 

[Well, actually Jim & Virgil & the three wives went the the Earp home in Cal.,
while Wyatt returned the Tombstone to go after the "ranchers".  He then went
to Colorado (where he & Doc parted company), then, later, after the Luke Short 
episode, traveled to Alaska, and etc.]

  As for the gunfight itself, it lasted only 30 seconds as opposed to the
longer times shown in most movies. A documentary I saw once explained that the
reasons the Earps won was because they entered the corral just as the ranchers
were leaving, ordered them to drop their guns, and when they refused the Earps
and Doc Holiday started blasting. The startled ranchers barely had time to draw
their weapons. 

[Frank, like Ike, wasn't carrying a pistol, and died trying to get his rifle
out of the saddle boot. Although it was hotly debated at the trial as to which
side provoked the gunplay, the general consensus is Doc's six-shooter fired one 
of the first two opening shots.  It was obvious that the cowboys weren't ready, 
and the Earp faction was.  See SWECSC::HISTORY topic 92 for a discussion on the
gunfight at the OK Corral.  --Don]

================================================================================
Note 412.4                          Tombstone                            4 of 19
BRONS::BURROWS "Jim Burrows"                         49 lines   4-JAN-1994 03:41
                 -< Hopefully without too much of a spoiler. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        They can pretty much be forgiven for what they did in order to
        save time. To show what Doc and Ike were really arguing over the
        night before the shootout would have taken a Lot of setup. In 25
        words or less, Ike most probably snapped that he wasn't really
        going to lead Wyatt to the cowboys who held up the stage, he was
        going to lead him into a trap at a lonely spot, and Doc shot
        back, 'that's all right, we did that to your old man!' But for
        that exchange to work you've got to show two holdups, the hunt
        for both sets of robbers, the attempt to frame Doc for one of
        them and Ike and Wyatt's deal, the killing of Old Man Clanton,
        and on and on.
        
        [Not sure what the "did that to your old man" meant, but if it
        refers to Old Man Clanton, he and some of his rustlers died in
        a hail of Mexican lead during a raid into Old Mexico, so it
        appears you are saying the Earps conspired with Clanton's
        Mexican victims. --Don]

================================================================================
Note 412.18                         Tombstone                           18 of 19
8269::CAMERON_S                                      15 lines  20-MAY-1994 03:33
                         -< Doc Holiday made the day >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now for a few questions for the historians.

    Was that scene at the lake where Wyart Earp fearlessly dodged bullets
    true. 

    [Kind of.  Wyatt led a charmed life, in that bullets seemed to dodge 
    *him*.  Wyatt's posse came upon the cowboys (not Cowboys) at the spring
    and everyone started blazing away.  Curly Bill kept missing (maybe Wyatt's
    horse was jumpy) as Earp let go with both shotgun barrels.  Both hit Bill
    in the stomach, doing mucho damage.  The posse then retired, and the other
    cowboys (some are more confortable with the word "rustlers") gathered up
    Bill's body and they left.  Bill, alive or dead, was never seen again.]

    In the movie they made it seem like Doc Holliday's girlfriend or wife
    was trying to kill him or was stupid and thought that he was immortal,
    were either of these the case.

    [Big Nosed Kate in real life was much worse than the character. (Surprise!)
    In the Making of..., the cut scene where Doc rides off to help Wyatt 
    was intended to show us Doc's friendship for Wyatt was stronger than
    his relationship with Kate. In reality, they had a falling out, Kate ran 
    around town bad-mouthing him to the point where Doc slapped her around a 
    bit and then ran her out of town.  (So the cut scene was correct:-)).

    Also, Cosmatos declared he did the best he could to keep it historically 
    accurate.  While better than most, the red-sashed Cowboys, Doc killing 
    Ringo (historians typically believe Ringo, in a state of confused & drunken 
    depression, committed suicide), misplacing James Earp (who actually ran the
    Oriental), and other pertinent facts pulled too far out of shape took some 
    getting used to for all the realism the majority of the movie featured. 

    I had learned my lesson about reading a book before seeing the movie from
    Jurassic Park, but in this case it was a dozen books--too late!

    And while we're on the subject of Ringo, at one point in the posse vs.
    rustlers saga, Ringo held off Wyatt and his posse in a narrow canyon;
    Ringo invited them to come ahead and be killed, and the posse retreated.
    "Doc" Kilmer's diagnosis of Ringo's personality seemed pretty accurate to
    me.  --Don]
    
      ------------------------------------------------------------------

    All "cut" scenes were shown in The Making of... when Tombstone aired on 
    cable.

    And, for over a week after seeing Tombstone, this phrase kept going around
    in my head:



     			"I'm your huckleberry!"


    ...and I still can't place the reference.

     							Don

    My SO is adicted to that movie... Must of seen it at least 10 times...
    
    He keeps haunting me with lines
    
    "I'm your huckleberry..."
    
    "Isn't that a daisy?"
    
    "Why if you weren't my friend, I just couldn't bear it."
    
    "Are you going to do something?  Or are you just going to stand there
    and bleed?"
    
    To top it all off, he's got a gazillion wav clips on his pc...

    I just rented this movie last night--for the second time--
    and love it.  I don't know much of the history--so it not
    being exactly true to life didnt' bother me.
    
    I especially loved Val Kilmer as Doc--and come to think of
    it can't remember seeing him in anything that I *didn't* like.
    
    I have one question---I know that this is from a very old
    reply--but could someone explain why the Billy Breckenridge
    character is funny to Tombstone enthusiasts?  I couldn't help
    but feel that I was missing something every time he was on
    the screen.
    
    Thank you,                                 
    Alicia

    Alicia,
    
    If you enjoyed this you should check out Kevin Costner's 'Wyatt Earp'.
    Be warned it is 3hrs 3 minutes long but after watching it the character
    of WE certain stays with you for a while. He was a remarkable
    character. 
    
    Royston
    

> If you enjoyed this you should check out Kevin Costner's 'Wyatt Earp'.

	I disagree.  If you saw Tombstone first like I did, then
	you watch Wyatt Earp you will be bored to death!  The
	other way around may be ok however?