Conference bookie::arts

	One interesting and seemingly effective transition from kicking to
	grappling is used by Royce Gracie a Brazilian Ju Jitsu stylst. 

	It involves a low front kick to opponents knee or lower leg 
	region (from just out of Royce's kicking range) to a step 
	down-pivot with the same kicking leg gaining a body lock which
	leads to takedown and then submission.

	The kick is thrusting as opposed to snapping in nature and seems
	more designed to dominate and close the gap then to actually score.

	The body lock seems to be a fundemental of the Brazilian Ju Jitsu
	style and lends itself to many angles of takedown opportunities.
	In gaining the lock it's reccomended that one position so as to 
	neutralize the opponents ability to strike with close range weapons,
	like head - knee or elbow.

	Total Defense CD from Black Belt publications which is a Gracie
	Brazilian Ju Jisu fundemental course of sorts has a section devoted
	to this transition - also I remember that some of the earlier UFC
	matches involving Royce showed its application in unstaged scenarios.


	
	
	

    
    This is a hard subject to address because of the width and breadth
    of potential discussions. I happen to study a style filled with
    multiple X multiple short, long, hard, soft techniques to be used
    in all ranges. I can't say I've found any "sure fire" combinations
    that work in all instances, but like every one else I do have my
    favorites. Like your Gracie example, my Kung Fu style (Tam Tui,
    i.e. seeking legs) is a favorite starting place because of the
    skill and quickness needed to block such an attack. Then when you've
    transitioned to close range we use (jut sow, i.e. wrestling hands 
    mantis style) there's everything from elbows, to eye flicks, backfists,
    spear hands and multiple/grab/breaks. I'm not trying to add confusion
    here, or say that this is an impossible subject to discuss, transitions
    are always fun and a wonderful surprise when you've caught someone
    off guard. Long range techniques are not the mainstay of the style
    I study, they are usually a feign (expected to be blocked) to
    conceal the real intent of getting in close and ending things quick.
    
    				/jack
    

	re .2

	Excellent contribution Jack.

	I agree with you that the 'open ended quality' of the subject
	matter might make this a difficult subject for discussion and
	I greatly appreciate your trying to engage it.

	Perhaps a brief note on what might be the motivations and benefits
	of such a discussion would be in order.

	I have been a student of Martial Arts since 1959-1960 off and on.

	I initially found the content of the arts very engaging but over the
	years I became as interested in the conceptual framework and 
	classifications from which the various arts could be taught.

	I happened on ranges and transitions in the 70's and have found it
	to be a most excellent frame of reference for teaching and evaluating
	techniques. During this time I was making discoveries from my own and
	other's painful experiences that seemed to fit within this context.
	I was losing encounters because they were out of my 'range' of 
	experience and I was very aware of the similar experiences of others.

	We've all heard the stories of some some poor Karateka taken to the
	ground and pummeled by a grappler type or the Judoka who got put on 
	'queer street' while reaching to get a grip on some boxer. I lived 
	some of these stories, and until my consciousness was raised to include
	range and transition awareness. I always thought the remedy was
	harder training within the range of my current MA.

	I think I gain 3 major benefits from the range/transition perspective:

	. Exposure to different teaching contexts

	. Appreciation for arts operating at ranges other than the ones I'm
	   familiar with - thus avoiding stylistic chauvinism

	. An excellent framework to evaluate my own strengths and weaknesses

	

	Leg dives are excellent transitions from punching range to
	grappling ranges, particularly when set up by striking 
	fakes or techniques to the high lines. When sucessfully 
	completed the leg tackle lends itself to effective body controls
	and submissions.

	The more generalized and non-specific the transition techniques
	the better. Leg tackle throws and takedowns are an excellent 
	generalized response.

	It seems that all wrestling systems and arts like Judo,Sanbo,
	Shoot and Trap fighting have some form of double and single leg 
	dives and takedown transitions that they cover extensively.

	Our little group has had great success with drills which engender
	this type of transition. The simplest drill we use involves:

		- Back fist strike to opponents high line forcing defense
	           to Double leg dive and throw
		      to Leg locking submission
		      or Mount position to submissions
		      or standing (with opponents ankles wrapped under arms
		       and he on ground facing up) kick

	There are a lot of coaching points to the primary technique,
	but rather than	attempt to cover them all here, I'll list 
	some possible text/video references instead.	

	"The Takedown" by Bob Douglas is a great wrestling reference for
	  leg dives and followups.

	Many of the Judo texts cover throws of this nature.

	"Jeet Kune Do - Entering to Trapping to Grappling" by Larry Hartsell
	  is also an excellent text reference for this class of techniques
	  with the examples dovered more in a 'street than sporting context.

	Almost all of the newer Brazilian Ju jitsu  video's should give a good 
	deal of	coverage to these transitions - this is core material for them.
	Panther Productions covers these nicely.

	

    Tentative kicks and especially roundhouse kicks are susceptible to a
    leg grab, and once grabbed it is easy to dump the person by stepping in
    and throwing them off their support leg with o-uchi-gari.
    
    On the other hand a leg dive is susceptible to kick or knee on the way
    in! It must be difficult to practice leg dive and defense against leg
    dive without injury. One well-placed knee and the diver is done for.
    And a successful dive could easily blow out a knee.
    
    My natural response to any low movement is to ready the front kick.
    Diving in to a moving leg seems quite risky.
    
    I don't understand this setup:
    
    >  Back fist strike to opponents high line forcing defense
       to Double leg dive and throw
    
    I'd think in the time it takes you to transition from a high backfist
    posture to the low position needed for a leg dive, the opponent can 
    likewise recover from a high defense back to a normal stance.
    
    

    
    re .5
    
    Grab a leg kick and go to o-uchi-gari!  That's one of my favorites.  It
    works particularly well against Tae Kwon Do stylists.  Also, if your
    feet are backward to facilitate this, you can do a ko-uchi-gari with
    the opposite foot/leg.  You can add a little spice to either of these
    by lifting up on the caught foot at the same time.
    
    
    Ernie
    

	re .5

	One is always prudent in raising safety concerns. My thoughts
	in relation to handling double leg throws or O ouch gari as tori
	(receiver of action) is to do so on a good mat and to do so after 
	having a good grasp of ukemi (breakfalling). I also believe in
	graduated drilling where one starts easy and picks up tempo only
	as Tori feels ready to handle it.

	I would caution anyone reading any of the notes in this file to
	always focus on safety first and foremost. Most martial arts 
	techniques involve some risk and prudence dictates doing all that
	can be done to minimize such risk.

	As far as 'blowing out the knee or knees' doing leg dive drills
	I have not found this to be the case. I have probably experienced
	as uki and tori a great many leg dive type throws - I find the
	greatest stresses are ususally felt in the lower abdomen or upper
	thigh region as uki's shoulder impacts - ukes simultaneous lifting
	and spreading of the legs upward actually act to remove stresses
	from acting on knees while transfering them painfully to other 
	areas. Tori's fall can also be a point of great impact shock and 
	good backward ukemi form with toris eyes on belt region and chin 
	on chest help greatly. I also reccomend that Tori exhale
	scharply (Kiai) at point of contact in drills - I have had the 
	wind knocked out of me as Tori in receiving this action.

	I agree in spirit with .5 that any variations of this technique
	which directly stress the knee - say like hyperextending it
	backwards - should be avoided.


>    My natural response to any low movement is to ready the front kick.
>    Diving in to a moving leg seems quite risky.

>    I'd think in the time it takes you to transition from a high backfist
>    posture to the low position needed for a leg dive, the opponent can 
>    likewise recover from a high defense back to a normal stance.

     The succesful execution of the leg diving techniques are usually
     based on non telegraphic execution within an indirect attack pattern 
     context.The backfist strike, I've found, is a nice way to make the 
     attack indirect in nature.

     I'm reluctant to get into a specific 'if one does A I'd do B' kind
     of discussions on a specific level due to tendancies to ratholing.
     On a general level, however , I'd say that if your experience tells 
     you that it won't work, particularly within your understanding of a 
     realistic reaction time model, then you shouldn't do it.     

re .6

	A good O ouchi Gari with a penetrating driving leg extension
	(not the inner hooking leg) also causes one to appreciate all
	that so called boring ukemi practice. I had some success in my
	younger days with O Ouch Gari following my usually failed Uchi
	Mata's.

	Great technique that O Ouchi Gari!

	I believe that Ashi Waza techniques from Judo are great 
	transitioners from Hand striking/clinching ranges to grappling
	ranges - particularly in renokuwaza (sp?) or combinations.


		

    
    You're right about the ashi waza.  One of the techniques I like to do
    is;  When you're sparring/fighting, move in close and reach out and
    grab the gi right at the deltiod of the closest shoulder.  Push
    slightly,, just enough to start to take the weight off of his front
    foot.  His normal reaction will be to try to move forward and try to
    plant his front foot stable.  About the time his weight is up but
    trying to come forward, I do a de ashi barai to his front foot, while
    simultaneously pulling down on  his shoulder where you grabbed him. 
    You can punch or slap to the the face with your rear hand to distract
    and or injure him at the same time.
    
    re .7
    
    I agree whole heartedly about the safety concerns raised in practicing
    these techniques.  If your training partner does  not have his ukemi
    down cold, you drastically increase the chance of getting somebody
    injured.  Now that I am getting up into the "mature" years, I seem to
    be much more cautious of potentially hazardous techniques.
    
    
    Ernie
    

	Just got Mike Swains and Michael De Pasquale jr's video
	entitled Combat Judo / Streetwise Ju Jitsu.

	Within the context of this note I'll just mention that there 
	is a lot ot world class ashi waza (including O Ouch Gari) 
	demonstrated in the tape as well as Te Waza (Hand techniques
	of throwing) aand Sutemi Waza (sacrifice techniques) and 
	some very insightful Ne Waza (grappling - ground technique)

	Mike Swain is, in my opinion, the quintessence of Judoka having
	among his many Judo credentials world and Olympic Judo 
	championships.

	Micheal De Pasquale Jr is a superb Ju Jitsu (Yoshitsune-Waza) 
	practitioner and instructor. He promotes a concept he calls 'fusion' 
	which has a lot to do with effective transitioning between ranges for
	street defense - hence my interest in his video.

	My son and I only have seen about half the tape (it's 2 hrs or so)
	so I'm not ready to review it and post it in the review note but
	just mentioning it seemed to fit the context of this note string.

	Don

    I'm glad to see this renewed interest in grappling techniques, caused
    mostly I guess by the Gracie brothers success.
    
    A whole generation of martial arts students has been limited to
    sparring at "romance distance", mostly I think because it's easier to
    teach, and they have little clue about how to break distance or grapple
    effectively once they have done so.
    
    Working with Ju-jitsu and Judo techniques will help to overcome this
    common limitation.
    
    Neil
    
    

    I was considering getting some of his tapes.  I'll wait (eagerly) to
    get your review when it is ready.
    
    Ernie
    

	Food for thought:

	Strategic Class		  One possible illustrative scenario	
        -------------------------------------------------------------
		 
	You can range forward - We've been discussing this one mainly

	You can range backward - That boxer is killing me but I'm a 
				 fair low line kicker but I need an angle
				 of retreat that causes him to adjust step 
				 before he can persue - giving me a beat
				 for a low line kick

	You can range freeze - I'm cleaning up in my current range
			       I don't want my opponent to change to
			       a range I can't handle as well or to one 
			       that introduces an unfavorable risk 

	Range disengage      - It's not always a good idea to go to the
				ground on the street - maybe a well placed 
				kick to my just thrown opponent and/or just 
				bolting away is the wisest course

	I believe all of these range classifications pose special challenges
	but have great value.
	
	By the by - please understand that conceptual frameworks such as 
	ranges and transitions, reaction time modeling, or opponent types
	(charger,runner,counter attacker) all presuppose that well grounded
	and mechanically excellent techniques will flesh them out. I suppose
	the danger is that one might forget that they are no better than 
	their grasp of their arts basics and this should always be the first
	priority.

	I hope I can set aside time tonight for at least 100 uchikomi's of
	O Ouchi Gari with my son - he likes the Ippon Seoi nage. Maybe we
	can also work the focus pads a bit with some hand combo's...until my
	wife puts a stop to it all.


	Don

    Let her hit the pads too.  You might just have a convert on your hands.
    
    Ernie
    

	I hear ya, Ernie.

	She actually was into Judo for awhile back in the early 70's.
	We both attended a Judo school in N. Grafton MA run by a very fine
	Judo instructor, Ron Berube. But the kids came along, we did career
	changes and you can probably guess the rest.

	My wife Allison was the oldest girl of 8 kids and was expected
	to help maintain order - I actually think a very underrated
	but effective martial art is 'big sister ryu'.

	I'd love to see her involved again but now that we're grandparents
	and still doing direct parenting as well, it doesn't look likely.

	She see's my re-entry in the Martial Arts as a bit of regression
	on my part and she's watching it all with a great deal of skepticism.
	I see it as a form of therapy for my son and so far it's doing 
	wonders....so she tolerates it.

	The marital arts are more challenging then the martial arts.

	Sorry for the digression.

	Don

	A common 'range freeze' seen in Boxing occurs when an evasive
	style boxer fights an aggressive charger type.

	The Ali years (he was the greatest in my mind and heart) and the
	career of Sugar Ray Leonard exemplify this for me. The two 
	Leonard / Duran fights clearly demonstrates the effect ranging,
	angling and ring generalship can have. In the first encounter
	Leonard goes toe to toe and exchanges for the whole fight, almost
	causing Angelo Dundee heart failure, and loses a close point decision.
	The second fight Leonard uses his footwork skills, which allow him to
	fight from favourable ranges and angles,and so frustrates Duran that
	we get the 'NO MAS' shocker. Of course most of us have watched the
	classic bull/matador Leonard/Hagler encounter and we can clearly 
	see the role of Leonards ring generalship whether we agree with the 
	outcome or not,

			A possible lesson plan 

	Here's a mini lesson plan I've used to some degree of success:

	Have two students face off in boxing stances where their gloves
	are almost touching and where the lead foot of one is in direct 
	line with the rear foot of the other (stance apposition).

	Demonstrate that either fighter can be hit with the full repeater
	of boxing punches (hooks,crosses,uppercuts, straights) from both hands
	and that the initiator of the action can do so without any adjustment 
	steps. 

	Now have one student step back so that without stepping his opponent
	can only hit him with straight punches.

	Now have the student, maintaining the range just moved to, change his
	stance apposition so his lead foot lines up with opponents lead foot 
	and demonstrate to him how he's made it much more difficult for his 
	opponent to hit with the rear most hand	(right 	if both in left lead 
	stances). Now you've given the students	a sense of goal orientation 
	for their footwork and will diminish tendencies for 'Just hoping 
	around footwork' that does little except to compromise balance and 
	expend energy uselessly.

	Try to convey the insight that in some respects the one that controls
	distance and angle has made the opponent more predictable (he can 
	only hit me easily with lead jabs) and maybe structurally slower
	( He loves that straight right but will have to adjust his stance in
	relation to mine to use it).

	This is of course not a panacea as the skilled opponent will resist
	and try to thwart these manoeuvres but this type of works start to
	integrate some 'sweet science' into the boxing range.


			The basic range/angle drill 

	A good controlled boxing drill to work this one is to have one 
	fighter goaled to just hit the other (control please!) and have 
	the other fighter just use defence and footwork (he can't hit back)
	so that he learns to maintain the angle and distance which favours
	his role. They should switch roles of course. The degree of success
	or failure is an index of how well the basic footwork drilling is 
	going and this drill assumes that these more basic skills are there
	in place to support the strategy.
 
	There are many more variations of these controlled drills which can
	teach how to use this skill - some which even allow for changing 
	ranges and using say throws to grappling.

	Don