Conference 7.286::pet_birds

    Hi Jeanne,
    
    I concur with the info you have on the breeding season starting now,
    especially in a warm climate.  Female pionus come into maturity 
    at about two years of age....males at about three, so the timing
    is right is Taco is a male.  I have white-capped pionus, blue-headed
    pionus, and Maximimillian pionus....the first pair are on fertile 
    eggs, the second are about to lay eggs (the hen is, that is ;')
    and the third would be laying if I had gotten the box up for them!!
     
    Yes, this too will pass.....
    
    Linda

    I went home for lunch to check on Taco.  More feathers shredded.  I
    JUST CAN'T STAND THIS!  Excuse the shouting.  I've called the vet and
    we have an appointment for Wednesday morning. 
    
    I hope this is just some kind of frustration behavior.  
    
    Jeanne
    

    Taco's visit to the vet resulted in:
    
    1. A shot of hormome to calm his new found desires.  Also to calm
       his nerves.  We had company living with us for 3 weeks over the
       holidays which may have stressed him out a bit.  He did not
       like our company.
    
    2. A shot of antibiotic in case of infection.  Taco's stool was a bit
       loose.  A culture will be done.  
    
    All in all, the vet thought Taco looked and acted healthy.  We'll 
    have to keep a close eye on him over the next few days.  If he
    continues to shred the next step will be blood work.
    
    Jeanne
    
    
    
    

    re .1
    
    Linda,  Taco has finally stopped shredding his feathers; guess the
    hormone shot worked.  His behavior has been different though.  he is
    not his usual friendly self.  He has bitten me once on the lip (minor)
    and bitten John also on the lip (quite serious).   At this point, I
    would consider him untrustworthy since his moods change in a snap!
    
    
    I can't help but feel he is unhappy and I wonder if he will go through
    the same process each year.  I'd hate to see my poor husband taking
    serious bites each year to welcome in the breeding season.  Our
    approach with Taco will now be to keep him away from our faces and to
    forget about all this kissy stuff.  I suppose we really have been much
    to trusting in him and our luck was bound to run out.
    
    If this behavior continues, I may consider the option on getting Taco a
    mate.  Can you tell me how this would work out?  Would he be happier or
    would he be more vicious with us?  Must mates be set up for breeding or
    can they just live in the same cage without a next box and be happy? 
    Do Pionus pairs mate for life?  Are they fun to watch (playful and
    lovey and all that stuff)?  Could a pair of Pionus still be tame enough
    to be considered pets or would they be hands off and "look at me" only
    type birds?  
    
    Thanks,
    
    
    Jeanne
    

    Well, Taco is back to his sweet self.  I think he bit both me and John
    in retaliation for taking him to the vet.
    
    He still has watery stools and the vet wants to do blood work.  Taco
    really acts healthy and I just can't picture anything organically wrong
    with him.  I also don't want to stress him again with another trip to
    the vet. 
    
    Does anyone have any tried and true home remedies for loose stools? 
    How about this over the counter stuff you can buy (Ornacycline and
    such?)  Would this help (hurt)?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jeanne
    

    Hi Jeanne,
    
    I'd avoid any over the counter meds such as Ornacycline....could 
    actually make the condition worse if the bird has already been on
    antibiotics...the flora in the intestine has been compromised by
    any recent medications.  Some suggestions for loose stool: monitor
    soft foods' intake to see if there is a correlation between when Taco
    eats fruits, etc., and the looseness of the stool.  Include Benebac
    powder or at least Prime vitamin powder on the soft foods to add the
    type of helpful bacteria back into the system the bird needs to 
    digest food properly.  Prime is made by Hagen, so any pet store 
    carrying Hagen products should be able to get it for you.  I prefer
    the power to the liquid gel form....  Benebac can be harder to find,
    but not impossible.  Lactobacillus acidophilus power can be obtained
    from any health food store....this is in both Prime vitamins and is
    part of the Benebac mix of beneficial bacteria (thus the name Benebac).
    
    Keep us posted!  
    
    Linda 

    The vet, Doc Miller, as he is called, did a complete analysis of Taco's
    stool sample and came up with the cause of his loose droppings.  Taco
    has pseunomonus (sp?).  This is a form of bacteria that is present just
    about everywhere and anywhere, so Doc Miller says.  Usually animals and
    people have the ability to fight this off but I guess Taco didn't this
    time.  
    
    We looked back on his (Taco's) records and found he had this two years
    ago also.  Both attacks were preceded by periods of stress.  The first
    time was after he flew away and was gone for 1 night before we were
    able to recapture him and this time we had live-in company (2 people)
    for 4 weeks. Taco did not like these people.  They left on January 1st
    and Taco was at the vet by Jan 13.
    
    Pseunomonus is quite resistant to antibiotics and the only one that can
    be given by mouth is Baytril.  I do hope this works as the others must
    be given by injection and I don't know if I can hadle that.
    
    If anyone else has info on pseunomonus please share it with me.  Also
    has anyone else had experience with birds getting sick due to stress. 
    And last but not least, does anyone have suggetions on how to keep this
    bacteria out of my life?  I keep things very clean but it looks like I
    need to do more.  Can I wash veggies and fruit in a water and bleach
    solution?  Can I keep a bleach solution in a spray bottle  and use it
    like windex to clean cage bars and wood perches on a daily basis?
    
    Any suggestions or information would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jeanne
    
    13th.  

    Things aren't going so well.  Taco is not responding to the Baytril and
    I had to bring him in for more tests to be sure there is nothing else
    wrong with him.  He had complete blood work done and X-rays.  Another
    stool sample and throat culture.  
    
    X-ray showed a slightly enlarged liver which can be caused by
    pseudomonas.  Bloodwork showed lack of calcium and a slightly elevated
    lymphosite (sp) level.  His white and red cell count were great as well
    as his kidney functions.
    
    The vet had to put Taco under anesthesia to perform all these test.  He
    let me watch the entire process.  Somewhat stressful to watch but I'm
    glad I was there for Taco's sake.
    
    Poor Taco was so tired when I got him home.  I have him under extra
    heat and am just wishing for the best right now.  He is presently
    taking Baytril and liquid calcium.
    
    Needless to say, this is not a happy time for me and Taco.
    
    Jeanne
    

    Hi Jeanne,
    
    You are doing such an incredible job of trying to help your little guy.
    I have been through similar situations and know how exasperating this
    can be.  All the expense, too.  At least it sounds like you have a vet
    who knows what they are doing.  
    
    Thank you for keeping us updated here in the Notes file.  I'm sure all
    of here are pulling for Taco.
    
    Linda 

Hi Jeanne,

I really feel for both you and Taco. I know how hard it is to go thru 
an illness with a bird - I felt so helpless when Garkon was sick...

Here's hoping things turn around soon...

Donna

    Thank you for the support.  I do hope Taco makes out better than poor
    Garkon!  I know these things can have sad endings.
    
    Taco is now taking Amphogel (some type of antacid) but this has not
    made any improvement.  It's seems so simple because all his blood work
    and X-rays came back good.  He was lacking calcium but he is now on
    liquid calcium.  I suppose this pseudomonus bacteria can be very
    resistant to antibiotics.  I even read somewhere in birdtalk that in
    some cases it is resistant to all antibiotics.
    
    I haven't had the nerve to ask the vet if this can be fatal.  I will be
    talking to him tomorrow to go over the next plan of action.
    
    Taco's appatite is not as good as what it should be.  He will only eat
    what he wants (fussy bugger) which is corn on the cob, cheese, peanuts,
    grapes and some pellets.  I've been letting him eat as much of these
    things as he wants.  At this point, I can't see holding out for him to
    eat different foods.  What do you think?
    
    Jeanne
    
    

    Hi Jeanne,
    
    I agree with you.  He needs to eat *something* after all, and what
    he likes is certainly better than not enough, even if it doesn't
    represent a 'balanced diet'.
    
    Linda C.

    Well, here's the latest on Taco.  He went to the vet again on Wednesday
    after I reported negative findings to Doctor Miller in my early morning
    call.
    
    His stools have been getting worse (more water along with light green
    mushy stools).  Well, as it turns out, Taco's Pseudomona is gone as
    determined by last weeks stool culture.  Yeh!!! Some good news!  On the
    negative side, Doctor Miller thinks Taco may have Chlamydia.  
    
    We talked and went over Taco's records and test results for about 45 
    minutes while Doctor Miller observed Taco's behavior.  Where the
    Pseudomona was gone, there had to be an underlying problem that was
    causing Taco's resistance to be down in order for him to be picking up
    these secondary infections.
    
    Judging my the worsening stools and some of the lab work findings, Taco
    is now being treated for Chlamydia.  Unfortunately, it's too late for a
    test as Taco has been on antibiotics and this would cause poor test
    results.  Since Taco is loosing weight, (down from 230 grams to 190) we
    could not wait for more test before we started a new treatment.
    
    I hate the thought of his having Chlamydia, but I do hope this is it
    so we can treat him and get on with a happy, healthy life.  Doctor
    Miller said if we are right, I should see improvement in two to three
    days.  It's only been 1 day and I have noticed Taco's stools getting
    much darker in color although still mushy.  As I am trying to be
    optimistic, I will take this as a good sign.
    
    If we see marked improvement within the next few days, we can assume
    that Taco does have Chlamydia in which case I would also have to treat
    the rest of my birds ( 3 cockatiels, 2 finches and a canary).  Doctor
    Miller said this could be done via medicated seed.  This part sounds
    simple, I do hope it is!
    
    Taco's treatment will not be so simple.  He will need injections, one
    every week, for the next 7 weeks.  
    
    Thanks for listening.
    
    Jeanne
    

    Jeanne,
    
    I just went back through this note and found that TACO was apparently 
    perfectly healthy but unhappy prior to his visit to the VET and his
    routine shot of anti-biotics, just in case.
    
    My Buddy the Budgie used to get loose stools every spring followed by a
    trip to the vet, who diagnosed the same thing every year and prescribed
    antibiotics for 10-30 days.  Last spring the loose stools came and I
    watched Buddy for other signs of sickness that never came. In time his
    stools got back to normal.
    
    My stools are sometimes loose too, but my doctor never gave me
    anti-biotics for it.  Actually sometimes when I get sick and take
    Anti-biotics, I get the same results.
    
    Just the facts.......

    .14
    
    Good point, but I don't think this case is that simple.  Taco did have
    loose stools at his initial visit but not so bad as he does now.  He
    has been getting progressively worse, loosing weight and both X-ray and
    blood tests show some abnormalities.
    
    Taco had his first injection on Wednesday morning and I am seeing some
    improvement.  He was actually awake this morning and in his bowl eating
    away when I went into his room.  So he was HUNGRY!  This made me very
    happy as he is usually sleeping when I go in and in no hurry to wake
    up.
    
    He is also a bit more active.  I always bring him into my room in the
    morning while I make the bed and he plays on the bureau.  I have this
    statue that he tries to bite and I always tell him "no, no".  Well,
    today, I told him "no" and he flared all his feathers and hacked out at
    me as I walked by.  I take this as a good sign as Taco loves to strut
    about and play the big guy!
    
    I really think Taco was just "starting" to show signs of illness when I
    brought him in to the vet.  The only mistake was asuming that such a
    healthy looking bird could be coming down with something so bad. 
    Whether this really is Chlamydia or something else it has progressed
    over the last 8 weeks.   
    
    Doctor Miller says that approx 30% of all pet birds have Chlamydia. 
    They may be only carriers or they may live quite well with it until
    something in there lives puts stress on them.  In our case, live in
    company for 4 weeks (Taco did not like these people).  
    
    
    I'm learning alot with this experience and I can tell you I would never
    bring another bird into my home unless it had full blood work,
    Chlamydia test, stool and throat culture.  It may sound a bit dramatic
    but it's got to be easier than going thru this down the
    road.
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jeanne
    

    Taco went for his second injection on Wednesday and things are looking
    up.  He gained 10 grams in one week since his first treatment.  His
    stools are ranging from mushy to fairly good which is an improvement
    from squirting pure water just 8 days ago.  His attitude is better and
    the fact that he gave us a more diffucult time at the vets is a
    positive sign. 
    
    I think we may be on the right track.  If he shows more improvement
    during the next week, we will then begin treating the other birds as a
    precaution.  I'm so happy to see this improvement!
    
    Jeanne
    

    Congratulations, Jeanne.  Treating this demon is very difficult, to
    say the least.  I know I said it before to you, but again, your bird
    is _very_ lucky to have you as a companion/owner.  /Linda

    Re. .17
    
    Congratulations are not in order quite yet.  Week two of Taco's
    treatment was not nearly as good as week 1.  His stools are as bad as
    they ever were.  He actually regressed.  I am so discouraged
    and just don't know what to do.  I spoke to the vet this morning and by
    the tone of his voice, he doesn't know what to do either.
    
    As Taco was never actually diagnosed with Psittacosis, I am leary of
    going through the entire 8 weeks of injections where I'm not seeing any
    progress in his stools.  We're going to the vet today and at least I'll
    be able to see whether or not he has gained any more weight.
    
    I may stop the injections if I don't see any change in stools by next
    Wednesday and give Taco's system a rest.  He's been on antibiotics for
    6 weeks now and maybe that's causing some problems too.
    
    There is also another avian vet in town (she takes care of Alex, Dr.
    Peperberg's talking African Grey) but she is so far away.  It's over an
    hours drive each way for me and that has got to be stressful for Taco
    to drive that long.    
    
    I don't know.  I see birds in stores that eat only seed, drink dirty
    water, live under noisy, stressful conditions and they look healthy. 
    My bird gets treated like a king, fresh water twice a day, good food,
    love and attention, peaceful surroundings, and he's sick!  It's just
    not fair!!!!!!
    
    I'll keep you posted.
    
    Thanks for listening.
    
    Jeanne
          

         So sorry to see that Taco isn't doing well again.  Poor you and
    him, this is like a big roller coaster.
    
         And you're not alone - my bunnies get the best care, and they
    still block occasionally (though it's getting better); my cats get the
    best care, but one has cancer, one has diabetes and one has asthma; my
    chickens get the best care, but three died this winter.  Sometimes I
    feel like we can't win either, but then I figure that our "sickly"
    animals would have died a long time ago if it weren't for our care.
    That makes me feel a bit better.
    
         Hang in there!
    
    					- Andrea

    Hi Jeanne,
    
    Re: driving for an hour each way....to get to another vet who can offer
    a second, might be a small price to pay.  I drive that far to my avian
    vet and many others here drive at least that long to get to a qualified
    vet.  It is stressful to transport the bird, but so is this prolonged
    illness.  Are you giving Taco Nystatin to combat yeast and Benebac to
    replace the good bacteria in his system?  These two are often given to
    birds on antibiotics to help keep a balance in the system.  Nystatin
    powder or liquid is available through the vet/at a pharmacy with a
    prescription (it's a 'people' med as well)...Benebac is available in
    gel form in a tube or in power form..PetAg puts it out and many stores
    here that cater to the bird crowd in this area carry it.  RC Steele Pet
    Supplies (a wholesaler) can get it for you as well.  If you and your
    vet need more information, call Littleton Animal Hospital, Littleton,
    MA 508-486-3101 and talk with either of the two avian vets there:
    Dr. Bill Sager or Dr. Alexandra Kilgore.  /Linda

    sorry...omitted the word 'opinion' in the first paragraph in previous
    note....should read 'vet who can offer a second opinion' /lc

    Well, Taco is not going for his injection today.  The vet has decided
    to let his little system rest for a while to see if that will eliminate
    the water in his stools.  If he's not better in 2 more weeks we
    will start re-testing and getting second opinions.
    
    I have a quick question.  Taco is feeling better and is very much his
    old self other than his lack of gusto when it comes to eating.  he used
    to eat just about anything I put in his dish.  Now he is fussy.  Taco
    usually sits on my shoulder while I feed the other birds and thier diet
    consists of some seeds.  He has never shown interest in seeds until a
    few days ago.  Taco's been sliding down my arm and sampling the seeds
    before I put them in the cockatiel cages.
    
    Taco has never eaten seed but should I include them in his diet?  At
    this point, I want him to eat anything and everything to keep his
    weight up.  
    
    My other birds eat a combo of pellets, seeds, veggies and they are all
    healthy.  Taco is the only one that eats no seeds and he is sick. 
    Could he be lacking something in his diet from NOT eating some seed?
    
    What's your opinion?
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jeanne
    

    Well, this is week 2 without any antibiotics and Taco seems to be doing
    pretty good.  He has gained 13 grams in two weeks and he's eating
    better than he has in the recent past.  His attitude is playful and
    devilish at times which I take as a positive sign.  His feathers are
    looking better as he is no long shredding and some new ones are growing
    in.  I'm also giving him acidophilous on his dry food and PRIME in his
    water (he just won't eat any soft food with vitamins on it!)  He also
    is getting Benebec on his dry food.  
    
    Stools are great in the morning but get real wet during the day.  This
    problem definitely has something to do with how he is processing water
    which is taken in during his waking hours.  
    
    So, Taco's not perfect yet but much better than before.  If stools are
    still watery by next week, we'll have to work on another approach to
    this problem.
    
    Jeanne
    

    Glad to hear TACO is doing well. With my Human kids, I have had to have
    their Antibiotics changed sometimes because they are allergic.

    Well, time has passed by and Taco is still having watery stools as is
    one of my cockatiels now!
    
    I've taken all my records from my previous vet and have enlisted the
    help of a new vet.  My first conversation with her last Friday after
    her review of the records along with a quick fecal check proved to be
    quite discouraging in respect to her evaluation being almost opposite
    to that of my previous vet. 
    
    Since my birds still are not completely well and I have lost faith in
    my previous vet, I have go on the assumption that my new vet is
    correct.  My two remaining cockatiels have giardia and it's possible
    Taco has it too despite the fact it did not show up in his stool
    sample.  This new vet cannot believe my birds have been treated with so
    many antibiotics for psittacosis when all the tests and bloodwork show
    no sign of psittacosis.  
    
    My previous vet also stated Taco's liver was enlarged (which has had me
    worried for several months) and this new vet said "no way" his liver on
    the X-ray looks fine.  All my birds will be visiting the new vet later
    in the week.
    
    If Taco's problem turns out to be Giardia (which I did suggest to my
    previous vet months ago) I will just scream!  He told me giardia was
    rare and he really thought it was psittacosis.  
    
    I must admit this entire ordeal is making my blood pressure rise.  If
    this new vet (Dr. Allen - the vet who cares for Alex, the African Grey)
    can properly diagnose and help my birds, I intend on having a long talk
    with my previous vet.  I don't expect this conversation to be pleasant.
    
    Thanks for listening!
    
    Jeanne
      

    Hi Jeanne,
    
    Your new vet sounds great.  My understanding of giardia in 'tiels is
    that it occurs more often in birds from California.  Our vet here
    says it is rare in birds in New England, unless they were shipped
    in from California, of course.
    
    Keep us posted!
    
    Linda C.

    I think you're right, Linda.  Dr Allen told me giadia is very common in
    California and only somewhat common in Arizona.  At any rate, the birds
    have been on medication (Flagel, I think) for 6 days.  
    
    All in all, our appointment went well.  I brought "all" my birds in and
    she eyeballed the finches and canary but gave the two tiels and Taco a
    complete examination.  She checked the eyes, ears, mouth, feet, legs,
    and wings.  She also felt the bird's body from top to bottom.  
    
    Taco is in good weight but the tiels are a little on the "well fed"
    side.  This was good news to me as I would rather have them a little
    fat than too thin.  Dr. Allen said my birds looked the picture of
    health (other than the giardia).  
    
    She also said not to worry about the watery stools.  My birds don't
    have diahrea, just extra water.  She feels all the antibiotics could
    have really disrupted the natural balance within the digestive track
    and this could be causing the extra water.  She said it could take a
    while for their systems to grow enough good bacteria for them to get
    back to normal.  No negative bacteria was found in my birds.
    
    Unfortunately, very little good bacteria was found too.  In time, maybe
    more good stuff will grow now that everyone is off the antibiotics.
    
    I'm feeling much better about all of this. 
    
    Jeanne
    

    Hi Jeanne,
    
    Keep using the Benebac on/in their soft foods.  You can use it daily
    with no ill effects.  Apparently, the birds can't overdose on this
    miracle stuff.   This will help speed up the replacement of the right
    kind of bacteria in the digestive tract.  If any of your birds will eat
    it and are not lactose-intolerant, try mixing in yogurt with live
    acidophilus (sp?) cultures in it. You can use this and Benebac at the
    same time with no ill effects either (Benebac has acidophilus bacteria 
    in it too, along with some other 'good' bacteria).
    
    Thanks for keeping us posted.
    
    Linda C.