Conference 7.286::pet_birds

	Hmmmm.....which bird to get...Well, if you are like a lot of
	bird owners (The latest Bird Talk survey stated that the average
	BT reader has 8 birds...) then it may not matter which bird you
	get first...

	If you are like me, and want only one bird....then you have to
	put a lot of time and energy into the choosing....

	I do know that if you have a single hand-fed bird, it does not
	make the bird happier if you get another one...

	CAVEAT - The next statements are my own beliefs...they are not
	anyone elses....please keep flames down to a reasonable level...
	as I suspect that bird owners are going to be in violent disagreement
	to some of the things I am about to say....ALSO remember that all
	comments are aimed at the person who only plans on keeping ONE bird.

	Always get a pure bred (no crossbreeds!) hand-fed domestic bird!

	I do NOT like amazons as pets...most of them (I am sure there are
	exceptions) get nippy and nasty when the reach sexual maturity.  They
	are one person birds, if they accept more than one person, it is 
	almost always people of the same sex.

	Cockatoos make more than your average mess.  The feather dust can be
	a real problem if anyone in your house is alergic to much.  Cockatoos
	demand alot of attention, and can get to be feather pickers if they do
	not receive the attention.  In addition, they are very loud...

	African Greys are quiet, gentle, very intelligent, but very shy.  They
	have to be treated very gently...they usually fear strangers.  Some 
	like to be held and petted, very few are rambunctious...They are 
	marvelous talkers, and very intelligent.

	Indian Paraketts (Ringnecks, Mustash, Plumheads etc.) talk well, are
	very pretty, not too loud, but not real cuddly not very intelligent.

	Pocket parrots (Grey cheeks, canary wings etc.) have similar attributes
	to the larger Indian Parakeets.

	Eclectus are not too loud, can be very affectionate, are usually very
	expensive.  They usually are not very cuddly, but can be playful.

	Macaws are always LOUD and obnoxious and a joy to own.  They are
	expensive, need a very large cage, can chew thru anything short of
	stainless steel...they are in a word perfect!

	Scarlets are usually one person birds, and are nippy.  

	Blue and Golds are family birds, they are both playful and cuddly..
	they own you.

	Greenwings are much more cuddly than the Blue and Golds, but tend
	not to be as playful.

	There is nothing wrong with a Hyacinth, except that I don't own one.
	I do own a Blue and Gold, but I am not at all prejudiced :-)

	Well...there it is...I hope no one takes TOO much offense...

	-dick

My B&G is not entirely a family bird.  My wife she tolerates, and even goes to
at times, but she normally prefers my company.  She basically can't stand my
five year old son.  Last night I was playing with her and a friends 2 year
old was very near by.  I was extremely concerned for her safety, but fortunately
Koko didn't do anything stupid.  I guess she probably realized there would be
a very quick response on my part.  She hasn't been so tolerant of my son. Now
the interesting thing is that she will let my son hand feed her stuff, but not
get too close.  I have friends who can get near her, but she gives lots of talk,
and sometimes more (or at least she tries).  A technique that worked while I was
on vacation was to have my friend scream back at her.  After 2 days she was
sitting on my friends arm. Not petting her mind you, but she was allowing
herself to be picked up and fed.  I warn friends and acquaintenances that she
both screams and bites.  I wish she was more friendly.  It turns out that if I
have her away from home, she becomes much friendlier to strangers (and even 10
year olds).  She'll sit on their shoulder fairly comfortably.  Just don't try it
at home.

I guess I concur that I love macaws, but they are a real handful.  Enter at your
own risk, and with eyes wide open.

    
    well...ummm...hummm...
    
    from this morning's responses, i can see this is going to be tough.  it
    is a good thing that i have plenty of time to make up my mind. 
    
    tell me, how do you correct a bird when it is being BAD?  a friend of
    mind told me to grab it's beak and say NO.  (she had a lovebird.)
    i think i could be a bit intimidated doing that to say macaw or a 
    cockatoo.
    
    thanks for your responses -- i hope alot more people write in --
    the more opinions the better -- remember -- everyone's got one!
    
    thanks, t

Well, I normally yell.  I can occasionally grab her beak, but I can assure you
one must be very careful, if you grab it the wrong way, it's called PAIN.
(because they tend to bite!).

Ed

	Coupla' things...

	1.  Ed is right...Macaws will usually prefer one person.  Avalon
	    prefers me, unless he is angry with me, and then he only wants
	    to be on my wife's shoulder....

	2.  I use a water pistol (re:  Pat Walz) to dicipline Avalon.  As
	    for being intimidated...if you are going to be intidated by 
	    either a Macaw or a Cockatoo....DON'T GET ONE!

	    Both birds love to intidate people....

	Coupla' weeks ago, Pat Walz spent a few days with us, when she
	was up in Massachusetts.  She immediately wanted to be friends with
	Avalon, who would have none of it.  I told her that he would NOT allow
	anyone but Lila or I to touch the back of his head. You know the area
	not easily reached by beak!

	I also told Pat that I had friends who had been trying to get to
	pet Avalon for 6 months, with little or no success.

	Pat just told me, that they did not really understand Macaws.  I said
	yeah..right!

	Well, in less than 3 days (using only about an hour a nite), Pat
	was scratching Av behind the neck, preening his feathers, having 
	him greet her the same way he does us...Now I'm willing to admit that
	Pat Walz knows alot more about birds than I do, but I am also willing
	to believe that given a few lessons by someone as good as she is,
	and you could have most Blue and Golds "eating out of your hands"

	Hmm....what we ought to do is get Pat to do some "hand training"
	video tapes, and then sell them!

	Now that Ed and I have extolled Blue & Golds, keep in mind..they
	scream as if their feathers were being plucked out one at a time
	just for the hell of it.  They will attempt to intimidate ANYONE
	they see.  They require a real big cage...they can destroy any of
	your best furniture in seconds...We have this lovely colonial chair
	with a perfect "bite" taken out of one arm.  They make one hell of 
	a mess!

	But they're worth it!

	-dick

    
    my experience with large birds only extends to hand-fed, hand-raised
    cockatoos and macaws.  i have obtained my experience by playing with the 
    umbrella cockatoos and a hyacinth macaw at this one bird farm i go
    to.  these birds have been nicer and more affectionate than the kids
    i currently have -- horse, cat, rabbit and cockatiels -- AND they have
    been much nicer than most people and children i know.  (Not that I
    don't know nice people but these birds are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY nice!!)
    
    one thing i am really interested in finding out about is the difference 
    between hand-raised birds and imported birds.  some people have told me
    that the only difference is in the beginning.  that the imported birds
    can become as friendly as the hand-raised birds.  i would love to 
    hear some more opinions regarding this issue. 
    
    What about the people that have replied to this message -- 
    are your birds imported or hand-raised?

    Thanks for the kudos, Dick.  I am looking forward to my July column
    being published:  All about my visit with Avalon and the Kirschbaums.
    
    If you want a great pet:  GET A HAND RAISED DOMESTIC BABY PARROT!
    All my birds are domestic, all my birds were purchased as babies.
    Even though Dick touts my great "expertise,"  my failures have 
    always been with imported birds.  They never really trust you.
    
    As far as pet quality:  the bird is what you make it.  I can attest
    to the love, attention and care that Avalon gets, (OK, let's face
    it:  He's spoiled rotten!).  A bird not considered an important
    member of the family will NOT make a good pet.  Birds demand
    attention, and return it with love and devotion.
    
    Although I have met many nippy Amazons, my own Rico is dubbed the "bird
    who does not bite!"  I take him to old age homes and feel confident
    to let people foreign to birds touch him and pass him from person to
    person.  He is so docile (I think he may be bird-retarded---joke) that
    he doesn't think to harm anyone.
    
    My grey is fidgity, but I know others that demand to be the center of
    attention and will perform for strangers.  I know blue and golds who
    are nasty and will charge at people to bite them.  I have met laid
    back scarlets.
    
    Again, there are general traits, but the true test is how the bird is
    raised and treated.  Get a domestic baby, give it lots of love and
    positive reinforcement, and you will have a fine pet.
    
    Remember:  all parrots are noisy, all parrots bite (they are NOT
    domesticated), all parrots are smart (with the possible exception
    of Rico, joking again).  All parrots need lots of attention.  
    
    Pat

	I purchased Avalon as he was weaned from Al Decoteau, who was then
	living in Dunstable....

	Hmm...that was 3 years ago....

	-dick

Mine is hand fed (I did it myself from 9 wks old on).
It makes a real difference.  My bird merely likes to intimidate. She doesn't go
out of her way to bite, but will on demand from someone who gets too nosy.
I have had experienced bird people play with her with few problems.  I guess
that could be part of it as well.  I don't have too many friends with that
much confidence!

    We have 10 birds and I know that I shouldn't show any
    favoritisms......but.......Simon, my Yellow Collared Mini-Macaw is my
    "baby".He is so lovable that I can hardly believe it.He will lay on
    his side just as close to my chest as he can get,raise one of his wings
    so I can rub his side while I rub his beak with my other hand.He makes
    little cooing noises while I am doing this and holds his head with one
    of his claws.No one can believe how loving he is.
      And another good point.....he was so easy to potty train!!! I just
    love him. I have to tell this story because I was so impressed (?).
    One Sunday, my husband and I took Simon and Rocko (Green-Cheek Amazon)
    for a ride in the truck. They both LOVE to ride.Simon was getting
    restless and I knew he had to go "potty". I thought...great,I don't
    have his cage here,now what do I do? I thought I would try something
    anyway. I took a napkin out of the glove compartment,held Simon on one
    hand,the napkin in the other,and said,"O.K. Simon,go poopie". And he
    did....right on the napkin!!! I was impressed.
      Our Amazon is lovable too, but he only wants loving for just so long.
    I love all my birds, but I do perfer the bigger birds.

    
    Ok, here goes, we have 8 birds at our house. Only 2 are mine, a
    red lord amazon and a blue and gold macaw...Marley the red lord
    I have had since he was about a yr. old, he was very bonded to me
    but is starting to warm up to some people. This is after 3 yrs.
    and maybe the fact he was the 1st big bird in the house, along with
    a couple of budgies. I also recently got a blue & gold, hand fed
    domestic from florida so I was told, closed band. She is about 
    2 yrs old and was neglected. She has scissor beak which is being
    treated by the vet, because this bird I believe was never given
    toys. The first toy I put in for her she went over to and when it
    touched her she said ooch..she is very sweet and we just love each
    other...Paco the yellow nape we call him jabba jaws because he talks
    and sings so much, both paco and marley I believe are hand fed imports,
    and you can really see the difference even though paco was still
    being hand fed when he came to our house...I love big birds, always
    wanted a cockatoo also, but think they require lots and lots of
    your time..
    Also in the house is a green singer finch that sings up a storm,
    and a canary that does not sing at all, feeding time in the morning
    is very noisey everyone wants toast before there little bit of seed
    and alot of fruits and veggies...
    
    =lisa  

    
    i love reading these stories about your "babies".  it is giving me 
    a much better perspective on birds.
    
    let me ask this question now -- because i am beginning to get a bit
    nervous that maybe i wouldn't be a good mom for a bird and that is what
    would REALLY matter to me.  i rather go without my dream than having a
    bird like a hand-raised, hand-fed 'too be unhappy.
    
    it is quite obvious that these birds take up quite a bit of time 
    so i started to wonder if i would be being fair to a bird if i got one.
    
    i have a husband.  during the winter we hang out at night and watch 
    tv -- i spin wool, knit, or sew.  BUT during the sping, summer, and 
    fall i do alot of horseback riding & sometimes don't get in until 8:00ish.
    sometimes on weekends, i am gone all day, but am home at night.
    my husband hunts and fishes and works on his 64 ford truck.
    
    i have some other hobbies like throwing pottery, sketching and
    painting.  once in a while i even see my family.  i am lucky because
    i have friend that cleans my house -- so that wouldn't take away
    any time, but i do have to do laundry, dishes, and stuff like that.  
    
    i figure that while i am doing alot of my hobbies the companionship
    of a bird would be nice (ie, knitting, spinning, etc.), but would a
    bird be happy with that?  -- i know for sure that i could give
    a bird at least one hour a day of devotion, but probably alot more
    if it didn't mind keeping me company while i did other things.
    
    from the phone calls and messages that i have received it seems that
    one hour of quality time is acceptable -- then of course time in
    front of the tv is added time.  what is the consensus on this?
    i also have a cat -- which sleeps with my hubby and i, two cockatiels,
    and a dwarf rabbit that share our home with us.  The two cockatiels
    fly around and play with us (land on our heads or shoulders or toes --
    and nibble and poop)
    
    also i am a REAL morning person -- ESPECIALLY when it is light -- alot
    of times i am up with the dawn -- just because i hate to miss it so
    i play with the kids in the early morning too.
    
    your replies and opinions would be really helpful on this because i
    want to be fair to a bird if i got one.
    
    btw -- i am leaning towards a hand-raised, hand-fed umbrella cockatoo.
    

    After reading your lifestyle and time constraints,  I would NOT
    recommend a cockatoo of ANY TYPE!  I have a beautiful Moluccan Cockatoo
    that is puppy friendly (I got her just off quarantine), BUT requires
    MUCH attention.  She gets very annoying with squeeks and other vocal
    objections as soon as I get home at night and will not stop unless I
    stop what I am doing and spend my time playing with her.  She is
    extremely destructive and has to be watched like a 2 year old whenever
    she is out of her cage. (by the way, this is a normality with most
    cockatoos.)  She is very lovable and enjoys being cuddled, however
    it is a constant thing with her.  They are gorgeous birds and if you
    have the time (which is alot!), then they make marvelous pets.  You
    may find an exception to this behaviour, however it will be an
    exception!  I love her and wouldn't get rid of her, but she is a
    handful, and If I had to do it over again, would I get her?  Definitely
    NOT!  Only because my time is limited as well.
    
    You should look into a more independent bird.  You have to ask
    yourself:
    
    
                 1)  Do I want a cuddly bird, or an entertaining bird.
    
                     Although you will get a little of both from some
                     species,  You will find, the talkative/entertaining
                     birds are less friendly and more independant.
    
                     The cuddlier the bird, the more attention it requires
                     as a rule.
    
    
    Talking birds are a great entertainment.  They always amaze you with 
    their magnificant vocal ability. (I am basically speaking of the top
    two talkers;  Yellow Naped Amazons and African Greys (Congos).
    
    I have a yellow nape and enjoy him immensely.  I live a rather hectic
    lifestyle and find him to be independent.  He always finds things to
    amuse himeself.  I can watch tv in the evening and he will sit on his
    cage or play on his rings, mumbling to himself or singing a song.  He
    loves to learn songs and phrases, and has the uncanny ability to say
    the right thing at the right time.    It is correct that Amazons are
    not known for their "Bedside manner" however I would never, ever
    consider getting rid of Jocko!  He is a Joy and keeps us amused all
    the time!  My husband, who is not a bird lover -just adores him.
    If I could keep only one bird, it would be my Yellow Nape. They as most
    birds do, take a liking to one individual in the house and prefer that
    person over anyone else.  Jocko loves my husband....but I have learned
    to accept it.
    
    As for African Greys,  I have heard great things about them as well,
    however I do not own one.  I have heard that they are prone to pluck
    their feathers for no apparent reason.
    
    
    It sounds as though with your lifestyle, a talking bird would be your
    best bet.  They entertain you without becoming a burden.
    
    Best of luck with whatever you choose!
    
    Regards,
    Denise

    
    denise, noter #524.13, and everyone that has replied to this note,
    i cannot thank you enough for all of your replies -- they have been
    instrumental in my decision by providing me with enough 
    background not to get a bird...at least not an umbrella cockatoo
    at this time (a little help was also provided by my 
    new landlord and neighbors). 
     
    although these birds sound wonderful, i think the that amount of time
    they need and the amount of time that i can provide is not 
    compatible and that the amount of noise they would make would 
    be unacceptable at this new place.  
    
    thanks everyone -- t

    
    re: native vs home-grown.
    We have two Greys - "Basil", locally born (Britain) and "Lucy", native 
    (Congo).
    Understandably, Lucy is much more affectionate. However, I've got to
    say that Basil is by far the more interesting, and definitely displays
    more intelligence. I say this even though he cannot stand me (dislike,
    not fear). He likes my wife. He will even get on her hand, although 
    nobody can touch him. He is interested in children, especially babies.
    He NEVER bites - he just retreats. If cornered, he will envelope your
    finger in his beak, give it a gentle squeeze, then push it away.
    His manner changes as soon as I enter the room. Sometimes, as
    I walk out the door, I hear squawking commencing, apparently signifying
    "party time - he's gone" ! 
    In terms of "character", Basil is loaded with it, and I believe that
    the 'native' instincts have something to do with it.
    
    re .-1
    I wish all potential animal-buyers did the research and careful 
    consideration that you have.
    
    My respect,
    Jim
    

    Tina,
    
           Well here's my story.  I also wanted to get a large bird,
    but didn't know what kind I should buy. My first priority was that
    it had to talk, or be able to be taught to talk. Also I wanted to be
    able to touch and handle it. A friend of mine who has an Amazon told
    me of an Amazon that someone had sold back to a local pet store. She
    told me he was really sweet and he already could talk. I went to that
    store and they showed me this Oranged Winged Amazon that was the ugly-
    est bird I had ever seen. He had pulled all the feathers off his chest
    and legs, the people in the store told me that when he came in he was
    very pretty, but he pulled out his feathers because he didn't like
    other birds and that he had been in someones home for the first 5 years
    of his life and just was shocked when he was sold to the store. The
    store had also discounted him because he swore. I had them put this 
    bird on my shoulder so I could see if he would like me. He is an import
    and his name is Sampson. He was very sweet too me and would nibble on
    my hair and ears and he did say a few phrases like 'want a cookie'
    'pretty bird' 'hello' but he never did sware. The thing that really 
    impressed me was that Sampson stayed on my shoulder for an hour and
    a half and he never once crapped on me. Well I put him back because
    they wanted $550.00 and I thought that that was alot of money at he 
    time. I came back a week later and he was still there. So I got him out
    again and I think he remembered me. So I bought him. His feathers came
    back and he is just gorgious. Also when I got him home he started to
    say a lot more than when he was in the store. Like I said before he was
    caged trained and would only crapp on or in his cage. He also said "do
    poop" which he knew what that command meant when I would say it. Well
    at first we did have some fights as I didn't know that certain things
    would upset him. First off he hates bags (plastic paper even pillow
    cases) he was terrified of these things. He also hated me shaking any
    thing and also hated being sprayed with water. I let his flight
    feathers grow in and taught him how to make good landings. I also
    started trimming his nails and his beak, he really doesn't mind me 
    doing these things to him. He does have a voice in which he uses very
    bad language, But I can get him to stop almost all the time. I now have
    had him for almost 3 years and he's the best thing that ever came into
    my life, and its the best $550.00 I've spent. He loves all other people
    even kids. He loves to have his head scratched and loves to sit on me
    while I watch t.v.. I am against the importation of birds but I would
    never give him up. THe reason I wanted something that talked is that I
    live alone and need someone to talk too. And boy can he talk. He not
    only says short phrases but can say whole sentences in one breath. He
    laughs and can sing like an opera star, growls like a dog and meows
    like a cat, does every kind of bird call and whistles too. He says
    'come here', 'come on ', 'come over here' and knows what they mean
    also. My advise to you is that you should spend as much time with a
    bird that possibly can before you make the choice and buy one. I would
    suggest an Amazon of any type but of course I am bias.
    
    
    
    
                                   Mike and Sampson

    
    thanks!  you opinion has alot of value to me.  the major thing that i
    must consider now is the volume of the bird since that is one of the
    reasons that i didn't get the umbrella.  
    
    i have a feeling that an amazon may be too loud for my new environment. 
    my neighbors are kind of close to my house and my landlord's living
    room is on the otherside of mine -- which is where i would have the bird.
    
    i am almost thinking that i should be happy with the cockatiels i have
    now and think about a large bird when i get my own house with enough
    land to support my small farm.
    
    t

    My dream bird is a Blue Headed Pionus.  They are about the size of a
    cockateil but bulkier/heavier.  They are said to be very quiet and
    polite and somewhat independent.  I'm sure they would need much less
    attention than a cockatoo and they are quiet enough for apartment
    living.  They are also said to be very friendly but not overly
    demanding.  They are also very beautiful.  
    
    In my opinion, they sound like perfect birds (that is if you don't care
    about talking ability).  
    
    
    Jeanne  
    

    
    jeanne,
    
    i can't believe it -- when i went to the bird store to pick up on my
    deposit what do you think they recommended? -- a BLUE HEADED PIONUS!
    
    it sounds like this type of bird could be for me -- he called it 
    -- the APARTMENT BIRD.  does anybody out there have one?  could you
    tell be about them?  i have never seen or heard of this type of bird.
    they sell them at misty haven -- but i don't know for how much.
    how much do they cost?
    
    

    re .19
    
    tina,
    
    I've called breeders in California, Colorado and Nevada and prices
    range from $400 to $500 (hand fed).  To be honest I've only seen white
    cap and maximillian pionus in real life but have seen several pictures
    of the Blue Head.  Basically, all these birds are very similar but I
    like the looks of the blue head and I've been told by the breeders that
    they are the most gentle.  White caps are supposedly most playful.
    
    Blue heads have a lovely medium to bright blue head and neck.  they
    have pink spots on either side of their beaks and a pink streak down
    the front of their neck.  Their wings and body are a combination of
    dusky to bright green.  They also have red feathers under their tail
    and are sometimes called Red Vented Pionus due to this.
    
    I'm no expert but that's what I know about them.  All the breeders I
    spoke with couldn't say enough good about the Pionus family of birds. 
    Gosh, I'm so excited talking this, wish I could get one NOW!
    
    Hopefully some other noters will have more info to share with you.
    
    
    Jeanne
    

    
    well all -- 
    
    i made the following decision yesterday.  i thought about what i really
    wanted in a bird:
      i wanted to be able to hold it without getting bit
      i wanted it to like being out
      and i wanted it to be fairly smart
    so what i did was go out and spend $75 on a hand raised cockatiel
    
    i love the two i have now, they are just wild and cannot be handled
    their names are pookie and pookette --
    would i be excessive i named the new one "pookie junior"
    (oh yeh, i have a "pookie" horse too)
    other names i was considering were "Sadie or Chewbaca "Chewy")
    
    at some time in the future -- when i am rich and famous -- i think i
    will get a pionus parrot (and when i have an aviary...), and when i am
    old and can be home all the time a cockatoo.
    
    the pionus parrot costs $575 at misty haven but will probably cost
    $2000 in the year 2010 when i finally get a house --
    
    thanks for all your help
    otherwise i might have done the wrong thing --