Conference 7.286::pet_birds

Hi,
   The reason we need to clip our birds nails (or beaks) is that, in most cases,
the nails of a caged bird do not get worn down as much as they would in the 
wild.  When I had a pair of spice finches, their nails would get so long that 
they would start to curl around the perch.  If I didn't watch them, the nails 
would get so long that the birds actually got their feet caught on their 
perches sometimes.  

   You do need to be careful about some of the gizmos that are sold to prevent
nails from getting too long.  You don't want the bottoms of your bird's feet 
sitting on sandpaper (ouch!)  Maybe some other noters can recommend ways to 
keep nail clippings to a minimum.

I recently saw an ad (in this month's Bird Talk) for a perch shaped like this:
				 _______
				(       )
				 |     |
			    ---->|     |
	sandpaper on this  /     |_____|
	  flat part only _/


Seems to me this might work pretty well.  Anyone tried it? 


Roseanne

    Hi Donna,
    
    It's me again!  There are a number of good products out there that
    can help improve the perching comfort of your birds.  There are
    "comfort perches"  that are rectangular in shape and can be used
    in either orientation.  This helps the bird by giving it a flat
    surface torest it's feet on.  Believe it or not, round perches
    are tiring for the birds.  The way I decide when a bird's nails
    are too long is by watching it walk or satnd on a flat surface 
    such a a table.  If the nails are long enough to prevent the
    birds toes to rest evenly on the table then they are too long. 
    I use the front toes as a point of reference.  I also observe my
    birds as they go about their nomal activity.  If they have a tendency
    of getting their toes caught in "safe toys" or if they have trouble
    climbing then they are too long.  
    
    Beaks are a little more difficult to measure.  Usually, there will
    be a length that will look normal to you.  That will be about right.
    You want to prevent the beak from overgrowing too much because it
    can cause long term problems.  One of my mini-macaws is adopted,
    he's a real sweatheart.  The previous owner had never taken care
    of his beak and it was very much overgrown.  The result of this
    is a condition known a sissor beak.  The beak grew so long that
    the bird had to physically compensate for it.  The upper and lower
    portions of his beak is now out of alignment.  This causes his lower
    mandible to grow more on one side than the other.  The only way
    to correct this problem other than performing frequent beak maintenance
    is to have an experimental type of surgery done.  Because this would
    require the bird to be put to sleep during the operation I elected
    to keep the beak maintenance going (expensive).  This is, of course,
    the extreme.  Birds can be affected only slightly by having some
    difficulty eating or climbing when the beak starts to get too long.
    
    It is a good idea to have a selection of "chew toys" for your birds
    available.  This will help keep his beak in shape.  There are perches
    available that are made of terra cotta (same material as that used
    in making clay flower pots) that help keep your birds nails trim.
    These are all practical items.  I bring my birds to the vet twice
    a year for regular check ups and beak and nail trims.  With nine
    birds this can get very costly but they deserve the best care possible.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
    Jim Buccieri

    Hi Jim,
    
    Thank you for the pointers.  I will check out the position of the
    toes on the table to see if I have the nails short enough.  I was
    not home for a week a couple of weeks ago and I notice that the
    toe in the back doesn't seem to be holding on too good.  I think
    my little girl (Cochese) might have broken it while I was gone.
    It sounds like a trip to the vets is in order.
    
    I also have a Mollucan (Rocky) that is not tame and I don't try to cut his
    nails.  I've got to get him to the vet so they can take care of
    him for me (he's too big for me to handle without being tame). 
    I have a feeling that I've let his nails get to long and they may
    have to be coterized (sp?).  I have had his nails trimmed once since
    I've had him but that was around 9 months ago.
    
    Can you answer a question for me?  When the bird sits on his perch,
    (round one) are the toes suppose to touch.  Reason I'm asking is
    because when I first got the Mollucan, he was going through a perch
    every week (chewing it of course).  Then my boyfriend went to the
    lumber yard and they made us some perches out of a hard maple. 
    I just didn't know if the perches we made were the right size for
    his feet.  I don't know how the feet are suppose to be positioned
    on the perch to know if it's the correct size.  The one's we made
    are larger than the one that was in his cage originally.
    
    Thanks again,
    Donna :-)  ;-)

    Hi,
    	Can someone explain to a novice how to cut nails/file beak?  I have
    2 halfmoon conures which are tame enough for me to work on myself. 
    I've only owned them for a few months but the nails are getting long as
    well as their beaks.  They just don't seem to use any sharpenning tool
    I place in the cage.  They do try to sharpen their beaks on the perch
    or the metal cage but this accomplishes nothing.
    	If it's too hard for someone to judge how much to trim, I'll take
    them to a vet or pet store but I'd like to learn to do things myself.
    
    			Thanks,
    				Rich
    

    While I visited Dr. Kilgore yesterday, I was able to ask some of
    these questions and get answers.
    
Question: How do you know the nails are short enough or are too long?
    
Answer: I thought that my birds nails were very long.  However, she did
    not think they were bad at all.  She said that you can tell just
    by looking at them.  If they start to curl under, then they are
    way too long and need trimming.  She did an excellent job trimming
    them.  Now I at least know what length they SHOULD be.
    
Question: How do you know that you have the correct size perch?
    
Answer: She said the round dowels that are the same size are not good
    for the birds feet.  She said the best thing for the birds are
    Manzaneta branches which are natural branches that are very very
    hard wood (mine can go through a perch in a week).  She said these
    are natural branches that are different diameters so the birds feet
    get the proper exercise.  Her suggestion was to go with those branches
    and not the dowel perches.  She knows that Fins & Feathers in
    Chelmsford sells these.
    
    Donna :-)    
    

	Boston Pet in Cambridge also usually has some in stock, and you can
	mail order them from several places listed in the back of Bird Talk.

	I use all manzanita branches in both Avalon's cage and play gym,
	`course he is a Macaw, and quickly reduces anything else to kindling.

	-dick

    Dodge Grain, Salem NH, has lots of manzanita branches.  I got them
    for my macaw as she was getting pressure sores on her feet.  Have one
    for cockatiels and quaker also for variety.
    
    Also, Birds of Paradise in Plaistow usually has a decent selection.

    Hi,
    
    I thought I would enter this here for others refferrence.
    I adopted a Blue Front Amazon(Joker) about 6 months ago and have
    progressed slowly with taming him. He will take seeds from my fingers,
    but not allow touching.
    
    His nails on one foot were a little long when I got him and I hoped to 
    be able to tame him before trimming them. I didn't want to let them go
    any longer as his toes were turning to the side to allow the nail to
    sit comfortably.
    
    On the advice of others with amazons I purchased a Rotary Tool(part
    number ??07, $47) from Sears yesterday as well as a set of grinding and 
    sanding attachments($17). For grinding birds nails you probably only
    need 1 tapered grinding attachment ($4) It is a cordless, rechargable
    model that I found was very quiet. I bought the attachment figuring I
    would be able to use it for other chores as well. After having it home
    and checking it out, I think I will find it handy for lots of things
    around the house and on the cars.
    
    Last night I got him on his T-stand and carried him to a room away from
    his cage. I then partially darkened the room, put my leather
    gloves(Grips from Wells Lamont) on and put a folded pillow case over
    Joker. I held his wings against his Body from Behind and carried him to
    a well lighted room so that my wife could use the tool on his nails. It
    was not easy but we managed to trim all four of his nails on that one
    foot. The other foot did not need trimming. 2 of the nails I was able
    to hold, the other two I offered a perch which he clung to while his
    nails were filed. During this procedure he definitely was stressed and
    started panting, I had to stop from time to time to let him calm down.
    
    He did not cause either of us any  wounds but did manage to
    bite me pretty good though the gloves and my wife got to find out just
    how strong his feet are.  She had a tough time prying her finger out
    of his claws. 
    
    This whole job took about 20 mins, and I am convinced it was the right
    way to handle it for my self. I did not care to put Joker through the
    extra stress of being put in a smaller cage, driven to and from the
    vet, waiting  in the vet office and being taken out of the cage and
    handled by strange people at the vets. After the clipping last night
    he seemed not different than usual, other that he looked as if his feet 
    felt a little uncomfortable and he went to bed early. This morning he
    was back to hisself again.
    
    I made sure it was early enough in the evening that I had several hours
    to watch him for any signs of bleeding or other problems.
    
    Hope this can help someone assess clipping their own birds nails.
    
    Doug(Glad its over for now)

    Good job, Doug!  We do this with some of our smaller birds, but are
    not as brave as you with our Amazons.  We chicken out and have them
    done locally by Wingsong Aviaries in Merrimack, which is just ten
    minutes away from us.  We also went the less elegant way and bought
    the rotary tool from Sears with the cord, so only paid I think $24 
    or so a year ago, plus the one attachment bit you mentioned for $4.
    The cord does limit our reach and I sometimes worry that one of the
    birds will get ahold of it while we are using it, but so far no
    problems.  The cordless one must be really nice.  
    
    Thanks for describing your experience.  I think it helps to show that
    with patience and planning the basic maintenance things like nail
    clipping can be done at home.  Charges range from $3 to $15 per bird
    at some pet stores and vets offices, so the rotary tool pays for 
    itself pretty quickly, especially if you have a few birds or can
    find uses for the tool on other projects around the house, as you
    mentioned.
    
    Linda

    Hi,
    
    In my previous note , I mentioned things were back to normal the next
    day.  I have since found different. That was about a week ago and he is
    still hesitant to go back on the T stand when I am near. This seriously
    impacts the training lessons I do with him.
    
    My theory is, he remembers that it was the T-stand that he was grabbed
    off of. This would be one reason to have it done for you. Even if I had
    taken him to someone to do it, I would have had to grab him from the
    T-stand. If I caught him anywhere else, there would have been more
    chance of injuring him.
    
    When I think he is back to behaving normal I will post it here for
    reference.
    
    Doug

    
    Hi Doug,
    
    Re your .10 reply Doug....this is one reason that we take our Amazons
    to have their nails done, but do the little guys ourselves....Seems
    the big ones get more upset when being confined for the clipping
    process than the little birds do.  Also, if the roto-tool sight and
    sound upsets the bird, you are dealing with that too.  I know we go
    through a decision process every few months or so about whether to
    pack the bird in the car or try ourselves.  Our most tame Amazon will
    submit to the roto-tool while she sits in my lap, sometimes.  I try,
    then if she is not reacting well, off we go for a clipping and trim
    at either Wingsong Aviaries or Dr. Kilgore.  She's about 50-50 so far.
    The one time we tried using dog toenail clippers was the worst disaster
    ever, but that's another story.  All I can say is I can commiserate
    with you on going backwards in your training of Joker.  He will come
    around, and he might react less the next time with the roto-tool.
    
    Linda

    Have you ever tried a large corn file?  My amazon will let me file her
    nails without any complaining now.  At first she use to nip and growl a
    lot but eventually she got use to the idea.  I also file her beak which
    she doesn't enjoy but just voices her dislike and has never bitten.
    
    I usually attack a bath, nails and beak all at once.  She loves the
    bath (actually a shower and blow dry).  To do her nails I stand her on a
    towel on the bathroom sink, hold one foot up and file the nails.  The
    beak requires a firm head lock.  I hold her head cupped in my left hand
    with my thumb and index finger holding the top beak and my middle
    finger under her lower beak. This leaves her eyes covered which is why 
    I think she doesn't enjoy the process.
    
    
    Cheers,
    
    ...Ed
    

    
    I thought I would add this in since I didn't know what to do...
    
    I have always trimmed my parakeets nails without any problem.  I
    usually hold him in a washcloth (otherwise he bites *me*).  He doesn't
    mind the washcloth after a 1 minute of head massaging.  Then I usually
    have someone hold his each toe as I cut it with the other hand.  Well,
    he started getting taught up on everything and I thought I better get
    this done.  So I tried myself.  I, and he, did a great job until I got
    to the last toe nail...  I cut it too close and got the vein!  I've 
    never seen anything bleed so much.  I tried to hold it, but he was
    getting over heated in the wash cloth, so I put him down and called 
    the vet.  Meanwhile, he was airing his wings and spitting up seeds.
    I thought I killed the little guy.  Well, the vet was very nice and
    told me to put the nail into a bar of soap.  That's what I did and 
    he did survive the ordeal without and bad memories.  I can still hold
    him and pet him... Whew.  Hope this doesn't happen to anyone else, but
    if it does, they've read or knew this.
    

<    I thought I killed the little guy.  Well, the vet was very nice and
<    told me to put the nail into a bar of soap.  That's what I did and 


   neat idea, I'll remember that.

   My wife picked up an Orange Wing Amazon last night whose nails have been
terribly neglected. Most of his nails complete a 270 deg circle. One nail is
nearly completely enclosed. The poor thing cannot climb around in its cage
without getting the nails caught on the wire. 

   Nice bird, but we've got to do something about the nails ASAP.  An earlier
note in this string mentioned cauterizing.  I know that cauterizing is the
use of heat or chemicals to close off a bleeding blood vessel. I assume this
procedure is something only done by a vet (not a do it yourself procedure.)  Is
there as less drastic way to, over time, get the nails back to a normal length?
Would clipping a little bit every week or so eventually cause the vein to
recede so that after a few weeks this poor guys nails will be back to the
length they should be? 

   I have no problem with trimming wings and nails here at home (we do it 
frequently on all our birds), but if it won't accomplish the goal of getting
the nails back to the correct length, then I'll just have to take him (we hope)
to a vet. 


Al

<Is there as less drastic way to, over time, get the nails back to a normal
<length? Would clipping a little bit every week or so eventually cause the vein
<to recede so that after a few weeks this poor guys nails will be back to the
<length they should be? 

   Quick update:

   I am NOT recommending other's try this procedure, but so far it's working
   -----------------------------------------------------------------------

   We did clip the nails and found we could take about 1/8" off each nail
without a problem (keep in mind this bird's nails had not been touched in
almost 2 years.) We cut one a bit too short and had some bleeding for a while
(got more for the blood-sexing vial than we planned.)  With the styptic powder
we got it to stop, but he'd pick at it and open it up again. Eventually we just
closely monitored him and each time he'd start chewing on the bad foot, we'd
distract him. After a couple hours it was time for bed (quiet time) and we've
had no recurrance.  Now there is only one rear nail that's still too long (much
better than before though), but we won't touch it again for a couple weeks
anyway. 

   We got the bird primarily, we were told, because the people who had him
couldn't handle him (they seemed afraid of him).  This is a sweet bird, even
with all the manhandling this bird has not been the least bit aggressive
(except when holding him in the towel for the actual wings and nails
procedure and that's fear, not aggression.) After only a few minutes of panting
he was again calm and docile. 

   He seems much better today than since we've had him.  He's climbing around
on the perches with the other amazons without the problems he had before due
to his screwed up nails. 

Al

    Al,
    
    A high speed Dremel tool with Grinding tip is supposed to Cauterize as
    it removes nail. I bought one and used it with limited sucess. I was
    too nervous of slipping while the bird was struggling.
    
    Doug