Conference 7.286::pet_birds

    I have a very stringent feeding program but I promised to put my
    breeding diet here first.  Further explaination will gladly be entered
    if you want!
    
    Feeding the Breeding Birds...
    
    Hens that are laying eggs are depleting their calcium and other
    vital minerals in their little bodies.  Since most of their bones
    are hollow and have no bone marrow, it is important we supply them
    with as much of everything as possible, because natural replacement
    is often too slow and debilitating.
    
    Give the birds a good quality seed and vitamin supplement, and be
    sure they are eating at least one hard boiled egg a week.  Put a
    mineral supplement on the soft food.  Be sure they eat lots of dark
    green leafy vegetables, broccoli, yellow and orange veggies, too,
    like sweet potatoes, squash etc.  I do not generally cook these
    foods.  Cooking just further removes nutrients..I do make sure that
    they are clean and disinfected though.
    
    Breeding is very stressful, even though it is so natural...It is
    truly necessary to help mother nature help the birds while they
    are excercising mother nature themselves, by producing little tiny
    babies!
    
    Jean
    

    Jean, Hi..
    
    I have recently started breeding Canaries and am having good 
    success but have always wondered about this EGG FOOD mix
    a local breeder told me about.  I know they seem to love
    it but is there something better? The mix is as follows:
    
    1 egg boiled for 20 minutes and mashed,
    Blend in:
    1 tablespoon Code Liver Oil,
    1 tablespoon Unseasoned Bread Crumbs,
    � teaspoon ORLAC Powder,
    � teaspoon NEKTON S Powder - 
    
    I know the Code Liver Oil has A and D vitamins but it seems with
    all the other ingredients that this is awful rich stuff.
    
    The babies are all doing fine.  And yes, as you pointed out in
    another note, they are very hard to get rid of, infact I don't
    think I can!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Karen from Colorado

    Hi Karen!
    The egg food recipie you have is a classic one!  It's excellent
    and very much needed!!!  Keep using it!  Because vitamins A & D
    are water and fat soluable, you should not have to worry too much
    about over doing it!  If you were using 2TBS of Nekton S and 2 TBS
    of MSA & BIO, then I'd day, hold on....but you are offering these
    vitamins from natural sources!
    
    The only change I would make to that egg food is rather than use
    the cod liver oil ALL time time, I would switch off and use some
    brewers yeast...just for a change.  The brewers yeast is also high
    in vitamins, too  much oil, the feathers may become greasy, or the
    little oil gland can become impacted....
    
    These are remote thoughts and instances...it does not happen to
    every bird ever time, you know what I mean...?
    
    I am selling off some older stock as pets, and am going to add to
    my Canary brood!  I'm really anxious!  They are wonderful birds,
    but then, aren't they all?
    
    Jean  8v)

    I am wondering if I can use wild bird food, bought in bulk, to feed
    both the wild birds and my grey cheek not_so_wild bird.  My indoor
    bird really loves sunflower seeds and so do the outside birds. 
    So I would like to buy 50 lbs. at a time.  any thoughts or prior
    experiences ??   
    
    Thanks - Steve

    re -1
    
    I wouldn't recommend using the wild bird seed for many reasons.
    I would doubt that a wild-bird mix is a "balanced" mixture.  Most
    hookbills love Sunflower seeds -- this does NOT mean that they are
    good for them (in volume) .  The smaller the bird the less Sunflower's
    they should have.  Also, you have no idea of the age of the wild
    bird mis.  A parot mix from a GOOD shop will be fresh.  (You can
    even test this by trying to sprout the seed).
    
    You should use a good small parot mix NOT the wild bird mix.
    

    Agree with the previous reply.  Sunflower seeds should NOT be the
    main part of your bird's food.  They contain trace amounts of a
    narcotic, which can be addicting to something as small as a bird.
    You shouldn't use a parrot mix which is primarily sunflower seed
    either.  My bird only gets sunflower seeds as a treat.

    Wild bird seed is not active seed.  It has been dead for many many
    months and may also be moldy.  Moldy seed can cause fatal bacterial
    infections in the birds that can ultimately be passed on to you!
    
    Nix on the sunflower seeds too!  Everyone else is right!  One problem
    with sunflower seed that nobody has mentioned is that they are fat
    soluable...ie..they deplete the vitamin D in the birds.  Many folks
    here use the Topper Bird Ranch seed diet which is a great seed mix!
    And it contains NO sunflower seeds.  Check with your vet if you
    like too, but sunflower seeds should be given in limited quantities,
    only up to 10 per day...  I would rather eat carmel popcorn instead
    of broccoli...get the drift?
    
    Follow everyone's advise...no wild bird seed.  I buy my seed in
    50# and 100# bags...A 50# bag usually runs around $19.
    
    - jean
    

    Jean,
    
    Where can you buy the Topper Bird seed?  I live in the Worcester,
    MA area and haven't seen it around at any of the local pet shops.
    Do you order it from a mail order house?  I would like to also get
    a bag of this type of bird mix (food) in a 50lb bag.
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    David.....

    Well, how many birds are you feeding?  If you only have a couple
    or one, 50# is a lot of seed, that will go stale.  I get all my
    stuff directly from manufacturers, the prices are better!  I'll
    look up address tonite and enter them tomorrow!
    
    -j
    

    re: 10.9
    
    Jean,
    
    I am only feeding one bird (Amazon Blue Front)... You know, I was
    thinking after I entered the note and realized that, that amount
    of seed was much too much to buy at one time.  I would probably
    buy a 10 to 20 lb bag and just put it into a tightly sealed container.
    
    Thanks for your help. 
    
    And, is this just about the best bird food (pet) that you can buy?
    
    I have been using Katee Forti Diet food which has too many sunflowers
    seeds for my liking.  I know that too many sunflower seeds is not
    a healthy diet. But, this is about the best seed that I have found
    at the local pet shops.
    
    David.......

    Topper Bird Ranch Diet:
    
    Topper Bird Ranch
    Rt. 7, Box 62
    Lexington,  NC  27292
    
    for phone/credit card orders and inqueries:  (704)352-BIRD
    
    I have found the Topper diet to be more expensive than local seed
    products, however, well worth it!  I wrote the company and asked
    for a sample....that I have an aviary and wanted a more complete
    seed, and all that...they were very generous and sent me several
    samples...it is wonderful seed!  Unfortunately, I needed over 100#
    a month...it was almost $1 a pound...guess who does not use the
    Topper???
    
    I suggest you get a 5# bag, give it an honest try, then order larger
    quantities!
    
    Good luck!
    
    jean

    I'd like to reiterate the point in .5, that good seed is alive
    (so it's easy to compare two kinds - just look at the sprouting
    rate), and make an additional point.

    Almost all the seed we feeed to the birds is sprouted.  One or two day
    old sprouts have a higher vitamin and protein content than the seeds
    they grew from.  The parrots particularly relish sprouted mung beans,
    the typical commercial "bean sprouts".  It works great for finch mix,
    too. 
    
    We soak the seeds overnight, often putting the tubs of seed in the
    oven, so the gas pilot warms them a bit over room temperature. Then
    drain them thoroughly and dry them on paper towels.  This is a hassle,
    but otherwise they may start to mold.  I avoid the fortified seed, or
    parrot seed with the biscuit pieces, which mold very readily.
    
    Of course, our parrots' diet is mostly veggies and sprouts.  They look
    like cannibals after they've been munching a mixture with beets in it
    (red glop all over the beaks), but they are very healthy. We grind egg
    shells for the calcium, and mix supplements, as well.  How do I know
    this works?  We aquired a second mitred conure a few months ago, and we
    wondered if she was from a different subspecies because she had more of
    a washed-out orangy red than Conan, our male.  Since then, her newer
    feathers are thick and scarlet, like Conan.  The difference has to be
    diet. 

    -Steve

    Hi Dave,
    I could not agree more with .12!  when I use seed, I use Scarlet,
    that I get from Dodge Grain in Salem, NH.  It's highly polished
    and has no dust.  I used KayTee for eons, but I started getting
    bags with mold.  Unfortunatley the Scarlet has too many sunflower
    seeds, so I mix my own seed.
    
    But to be more truthful, my birds do not live on seed.  The eat
    rice, eggs, all kinds of vegetables, and meats.  The birds really
    go for sprouted seed!  Excellent source of vitamins!
    
    If you choose to use legumes, (dried beans) and do not sprout them,
    be sure to blanch them first.  Raw legumes can become a toxin and
    the birds systems cannot take it...it can be fatal!  I learned the
    hard way!
    
    You can refrigerate your seed too, it will keep them dormant...if
    you freeze them, they die.
    
    And re: 12 --  have you tried ZuPreen Monkey chow?  Unlike Purina,
    there are no milk and oil products...So they do not spoil like Purina.
    The ZuPreen bisquits are almost white compared to the other brands
    and much lighter in bulk.
    
    jean

    RE: to Toppers Mix....
    
    Jean, is this mix a composition of seed/biscuits and legumes?  Or
    is it a type of chow mixture like the purina bird food mix?  
    
    I also feed my blue front a good deal of veggies and some fruit
    for a change of pace.  He loves dried fruit too, I just give him
    this every once in a while as a treat.....
               
    What are the best fruits and veggies to feed a parrot?
    (I feed Carrots, celery, broccolli, squash, apples, pears, oranges)
    
    David......

    Would someone in the know please explain how to tell "live" seed
    from bad seed by looking at it?  I used to buy fresh seed from a
    local dealer, but he isn't in the business any more.  There are
    a number of pet store around, but according to them all their seed
    is "fresh" (of course).  But my birds (zebra finches) aren't really
    crazy about any of this new seed.
    
    Also, a previous note mentioned putting the seed in the fridge.
    I was told (by a couple of different owners) that putting the seed
    in the fridge can create moisture under the shell, leading to rampid
    bacteria growth when it is in the seed cup.  The biggest problem
    (I was told) is respiratory problems.  Any truth to this???
    
                                     
    Thanks,
    cheryl
    

    re .14
    
    Topper is a seed mix.  It uses safflower seed, millet, and other
    "stuff" that I don't recognize.  It also has vitamins added during
    processing.  There are no biscuits in it that I can tell.
    
    re .15
    
    I have been storing my seed in the refrigerator now for over a year
    with no problems.  I did this on the recommendation of my book about
    African Greys.  I have never had a problem.
    
    Laura

    Hi again!
    
    Re: .14  Dave, the diet you say you are feeding is 'purrfect'! and
    the Topper mix is seed, that his half hulled and the meat is
    impregnated with vitamins and minerals.  I actually do not recall
    seeing bisquits in that mix.  Laura and Mad Max use the Topper diet.
    
    Re: 15
    
    Live seed vs. dead seed.  Rule of thumb I have experienced.  If
    the seed is in a box, you will be lucky if 5% of the seed will sprout.
    Pet stores and grocery stores are not a good source of seed.  Boxed
    seed is like us trying to live on lettuce!  Lots of bulk, but
    absolutely empty calories.  A dead seed is one that will not sprout.
    
    Try this.  Soak your seed for a few hours and pat dry.  Then, fold
    the seed up in a paper towel and leave it someplace warm for a day
    or two.  If 95% of the seed has sprouted, or shows signs of sprouting,
    then it is good quality seed with nutritional value.  If only a
    few sprout, get rid of it and find another source.
    
    And the point about the moisture, well, you should be using a frost
    free frige.  This will pull moisture out.  I've been refrigerating
    seed and other bird supplies for a long time and have had no problems.
    
    Also, oat groats, flax and niger seeds seem to be a haven for seed
    moths.  If this seed is kept out in warm/hot weather and not used
    quickly, these little critters hatch out.  You have little moth
    worms all over the house and then you get moths flying all over!
    It is a summer situation for large seed users that may make you
    consider never using seed again!  HOWEVER, I found that by simply
    putting a fresh bay leaf in the seed bags or containers, the moths
    and larvae do not activate.  Something in the bay leaves that keeps
    these little guys dormant!  Plus, these are not harmful to the birds,
    they are a source of protein, they are just  a royal pain in the
    *EYE*.
    
    The bacteria you mentioned is Aspergilosis.  This gets into the
    lungs, and if allowed to become severe enough can kill a bird. We
    use ionizers in the aviary to keep this threat to a minimum.  It
    does not come strictly from seed either.
    
    jean
    

    re .17
    
    You mentioned "fresh bay leaf", where does one get fresh leaves.
    I am assuming that the kind you get at the spice store is not what
    you mean.  I have had grain moth problems for years, I even considered
    getting rid of my birds, but they get into the dog cookies too...ugh!
    
    cheryl
    

    Sometimes I can be such a dummy!  By fresh I meant to change the
    leaves often.  Yes, just the stuff on the spice racks.  I must use
    a box a month!
    
    I was so put out with the moth and larvae bit, I thought of burning
    my house down...Drastic, but boy, I was frustrated!  I have a product
    called Bacillis Thuringis that is made by the Bag-a-Bug company.
    This stuff is made to kill gypsie moth larvae and it is harmless
    to birds!  It takes a few days to work, but it does!!!
    
    The straw that broke the camels back though, was one morning I was
    dressed for work, put on a blouse from the closet, and felt itchy,
    I took off the blouse and found cocoons!  Blah!
    
    Jean
    

    I keep my seed in a cedar chest.  the send itself does not come
    in contact with it because they are in jars.  the only bug trouble
    I have had is slide mount feeders that are not emptied after 2 weeks.

    Since I have has so much mail asking about what I feed my birds,
    I am adding my formula to the file again...
    
    Boil 1 Cup of white and brown rice (1/2 C each)  Use real rice,
    not Minute Rice stuff...
    
    Add to that one 16 oz bag each:
    
    	Thawed Frozen Corn
    	   "      "   Broccoli
           "      "   Mixed vegetables
    
    
    1 6 oz jar of Gerbers Fruit Juice - anything sweet
    1 6 oz jar of Gerbers Strained chicken or Turkey
    Then add enough Gerbers Hi Pro Cereal to make this mixture
    dry and crumbly.
    1/2 C Wheat Germ (toasted)
    2 TBS of safflower oil
    
    Grate up 2 or 3 carrots - skin and all
    Grate a large sweet potatoe - skin -- be sure to wash well though
    
    Mix it all up nicely...When it is cool, add some Calcium supplements
    and whatever else you feel may go well and will please the birds
    such as blanched raisins....
    
    Mositen some ice trays with light oil, and pack the formula in and
    freeze,  The next day,  pop frozen food cubes out, pack in plastic
    bags and keep in the freezer.  One Cube is a serving per bird...
    Of course if they want more...let them have it!
    
    If you are trying to condition birds for breeding season, use wheat
    germ oil in place of the safflower oil.  Only use wheat germ oil
    for breeding conditioning, not as a daily staple.
    
    j

    My husband is going to disown me when he finds out that I want to
    cook for the bird, but I'm thinking of trying this anyway...
    
    Just a couple of questions.
    
    1.  Is the amount of rice measured dry, or after you cook it?
    
    2.  Where does one find safflower oil?
    
    3.  How much does this make?  There seems to be an awful lot of
    stuff in it.  At a cube or two per day, could one parrot finish
    it in a year (yes, I know this is a slight exaggeration)?  
    How long can you store it in the freezer?
    
    Thanks,
    Laura

    I forgot to mention hard boiled eggs too.  Put in 2 or 3 hard boiled
    eggs.  Boil for at least 20 minutes...even though it's an egg, it
    may still be contamiated with salmonella!
    
    Use dry measures of rice.  If I use 1 whole cup of white rice and
    1/2 brown rice and 2 cups of water plus everything else, it lasts
    a week or so.  For a parrot, you can use 5, 6 or more cubes...
    
    But Laura, since Mad Max is so finicky, just make a small batch
    at a time and feed it everyday, with no seed...When he's good and
    hungry, he'll eat!  Caution though.  Don't allow the bird to go
    (parrots) to go more than 24 hours without something to eat that
    he likes.  Smaller birds must be fed again the same day.  Then just
    be patient.  Birds are not too keen on changes.  Eventually though,
    they eat this stuff.  In the long run, it's cheaper and healthier
    than seed!
    
    I get safflower oil in the grocery store, beside the vegetable oil!
    Sometimes for a treat, I use sesame oil!  I find that Asian stores
    and it is very expensive, but I use it all the time when I cook!
    
    And, if you leave out the vitamins and minerals, you can eat this
    stuff!  It smells good, and when you think of all the good stuff
    in it, it's good for us too!
    
    j

    Thanks Jean!  I wasn't really thinking of replacing his food with
    this mixture.  My intentions might be good, but if I'm realistic
    about it I know I won't find the time to keep it up.  I was more
    thinking of trying it as a supplement to give him variety every
    now and then.
    
    I'll let you know when I try it how he likes it.
    
    Laura

    Last night (10/27) I met Doug from note.  He asked me for a sample
    of this food I keep talking about....Boy was/am I *embarrassed*!
    See, I use so much for so many birds that I do not bother to freeze
    it all the time.  Or, I make a huge batch, use if for a couple of
    days, and forget I have a bowl in the fridge....Well, it just so
    happens, I had a bowl I forgot about....?  Doug asked for a sample,
    and usually, when I sell a bird, I give a sample of this stuff to
    the new owners...
    
    When I opened the lid on the bowl, I covered it just as fast...it
    spoiled!!!  It was less than a week old too!  I am sure it spoiled
    fast because of the eggs and the lid was not on properly...but just
    the same, I could have died!
    
    So I guess the moral to the story is keep it frozen...I taught myself
    another lesson!  the kicker is though, I got caught not being perfect!
    Ohhh the misery!  8^}
    
    Jean

    O.K. Jean, I mixed up a batch of your special recipe last night.
    I got the expected abuse from the husband about how I don't spend
    that much time cooking for him, etc. :-)  But in the end he helped
    grind the sweed potato, so I guess I'm forgiven!
    
    Anyway, I'm not sure if this came out right.  After I mixed everything
    up it looked like a BIG bowl of vegtables with a coating on them.
    Does that sound right?  I never got anything that looked "crumbly".
    The corn, brocoli, and mixed veggies weren't supposed to be grated
    or anything, were they?  Maybe I didn't use enough of the Hi Pro
    cereal?  I sprinkled some on, but didn't see how adding more was
    going to give me anything other than coated vegtables with flakes
    in them?
    
    We also could not find the ice cube trays (we have a built in ice
    maker) so we just put it in a couple of layers in a rectangular
    baking pan with some aluminum foil in between.  We figured that
    tonight we'd break it into hunks.
    
    All I can say is, "Max, you'd better appreciate this!"
    
    Laura and Mad Max

    Hi Laura,
    
    I made up that mix for my bird and I'll tell ya it is a labor of
    love!  I ended up with a very large glop of green stuff.  It was kinda 
    mushy.  So I think it all depends on how much of this and how much of 
    that you add.  I have to say that my Congo Grey loves it!
    
    Mark                
         
    
    

    Gee Laura, this is the best one yet!!!  I guess it could be considered
    sticky, but how do you mean coated???  
    
    I have to make some tonite.  I promise to pay close attention. 
    Did you thaw the vegies first and get rid of the extra water?
    
    The first time I made this up, I left it on the counter and did
    something else for a while, when I came back to the kitchen, my
    husband was standing there, over the bowl, eating it!
    
    His hair and feathers all looked so wonderful, I told him to eat
    more of it!!!  Now, unless I'm there, he *WON"T* eat anything I've
    just prepared unless I hand him a fork!
    
    J  8^)

    Jean,
    
    I have read thru your recipe a couple of times and seen that other
    people are making, so maybe I am missing something. You make mention
    of mixing it up and when it is cool adding ..., but cools after
    what ? Do you cook it ? 
    
    It seems that it is obvious to everone else, but I don't cook very
    often, maybe thats the problem.
    
    Mark, Georgettes says Hi.
        
    Doug

    Hi Doug...Nothing is obvious..I left so much out that I take for
    granted that I got tons of mail...
    
    The rice needs to be cooked.  I microwave it for 20 minutes and
    it's hot!  Then I thaw and drain the veggies.  The eggs that I boil
    and peel are hot too.  So I just kinda mix and mash all the hot
    (heated) foods, then add the dry or bottled items and after it is
    all cooled to room temperature I add the supplements.  Or, to keep
    the vitamins fresher...sometimes I add them as I feed each serving.
    It really depends on the mood I'm in...?  But heat does delete any
    value from the vitamins...
    
    j

    Hmmmm......
    
    I think I finally found the operative word -  MASH!  I didn't mash.
    My vegtables were still completely whole.  So the juice and strained
    turkey and oil made a liquidy coating for the whole vegetbles, and
    there is so much vegatables compared to the amount of liquid stuff.
    It's going to be interesting to see if Max will eat this stuff.
    I was gone most of the evening last night, but we're going to try
    it tonight.  Should I thaw it before giving it to him?  In the nuke?
    
    Laura

    Thaw the veggies and drain the liquid.  Boil and peel eggs.  cook
    the rice.  Mash the eggs with a potatoe masher, mix with the rice
    and throw in the veggies, then mash again, or just stir it around
    with a large wooden spoon, in a turkey roaster!  then just throw
    in the strained meat and fruit, cereals and all.  It really should
    be crumbly...not coated.  If you handle it, it will stick to you
    though...
    
    I've got it, we'll get togther, all of us, after work, and mess
    up someone elses kitchen and video tape the process!  ;*}  so, now
    we need to find a "centrally located kitchen"  um...does Detroit
    sound good????
    
    Laura, if it's real wet, add some more rice and cereal...and I thaw
    the cubes before giving it to the birds....a minute or two of nuking
    ought to do it!
    
    J  8^)
    

    If you guys all want to travel to detroit just to make bird food,
    you're welcome to use my kitchen! :-)
    
    One more question.  Are you sure it was 16 oz. bags of the corn,
    broccoli and mixed veggies?  There just did not seem to be enough
    of the other stuff to even begin to make it crumbly.  The rice seemed
    to get completely lost in the vegetables.  Everything seemed to
    get completely lost in the vegetables.  
    
    I know, I know, I never said I have talent when it comes to cooking.
    This shouldn't be this hard.
    
    Sigh...

    You got it!!!  The rice is a pure carbohydrate, as are the veggies
    I guess, but the veggies have more nutritional value.  But that's
    it!  Want another crimp...throw in some blanched raisins...yes raisins
    from a box, dropped in boiling water then drained and tossed in
    the mix!  You know, "Natures Candy"  they love it!
    
    BTW:  it won't be a video of my recipe, it will be a video of OUR
    recipe!!!
    
    I'm going to call travel now!  You have room for 31 extra folks
    plus a favorite bird in your kitchen?
    
    J
    

finally got a hand fed pionus maxillius parrot and been doing real good.
    not too sure about his perferance for food though.  he ate my hot
    & spicy tofu when I was not looking and when I tried to take it
    way from him he ate faster.  looks like no harm is done but is this
    normal?

    
    I don't know about Pionus, but my Timneh *loves* spicy foods.
    Particular favorites are hot chili peppers, fresh or dried, pieces
    of fresh ginger root, and *anything* Szechuan-style.  (She also
    likes - ugh - liverwurst, but that's another story.) Tofu is pretty
    healthy stuff, so I wouldn't really worry about it ;-)

    Rita
    

    Tofu is bean curd....fine for the birds!!!
    
    .33  Laura and Mad Max  -- hi!
    
    I made some food last nite...no dinner for the people though...too
    busy.  But I watched what I did carefully...Remember you said this
    was muchy and the veggies were coated...Well, first of all, I use
    the juice while cooking the rice in place of some of the water...
    
    then, I put the mix in a large pot, covered it and left it on the
    deck for the night, no room in the frige...Guess what...When I brought
    it in this morning, there was tons of water in it!  Urg, how
    agrivating! (The water, I assume was condensation) So, I added another
    1-1/2 of cereal with the vitamins to thicken it up again...
    
    Watching all this was Fred, our new Red Lored Amazon...She watched
    and watched and as soon as I turned around (she was sitting on the
    rim of the pan) she was in the pan having a wonderful time!
    
    I fed 13 flights and 6 cages of birds this morning, and there is
    enough left over to feed the pet birds again tomorrow -- about 12
    little breakfast treats...
    
    
    (Doug - now that I have fresh food made, you want to come back up
    and take a sample???)
                                                               
    J

    Well, we thawed some mix last night and left it in place of Max's
    seed for the evening.  I saw him at the cup several times sampling.
    However, I forgot to pay attention to how full the cup was before
    I put it in there, so I'm not sure exactly how much he ate.  He
    apparently does not like broccolli, because all the broccoli chunks
    ended up on the bottom of the cage.  He was funny to watch.  He
    appeared to be eating it, but he kept shaking his head and rubbing
    his beak as if to say "This stuff isn't bad, but yuck I don't like
    it when it sticks to my beak".  He's so fastidious.
    
    Before we went to bed, I put his seed back in there, and he dove
    into it.  I think we will try some more tonight.  Although I have
    to take him to a friend's house tonight because we have to bomb
    the house for fleas, compliments of my Shetland Sheepdog.  I think
    I'll take over a bag of the frozen food for my friend's amazon.
    He's known to like vegetables, so he should love this stuff.
    
    Laura and Fastidious Max

    Jean,
    
    Thanks for the offer of a sample. Fact is I just made a batch myself
    last night ! Rita and Tweety haven't shown much interest in it yet
    and don't want to take the seeds away until they are better. I will
    keep offering it to them though.
    
    Thanks
    Doug

    Hooray for Mad, I mean Fastidious Max!  Does he like carrots.  Chuck
    the broccoli, and try more carrots, and Laura, try the raisins!
    
    J
    
    (BTW: your last note really made me laugh Laura!)
    
    :')

    For small birds (e.g., budgies) would it make sense to grate the
    vegies in a food processor, then mix in with the mashed eggs, etc.?
    

    Hi,
    
    You can grate them....the only thing I grate is carrots and sweet
    potatoes.  Those little budgie beaks seem to break skin well enough,
    I feel they break the veggies pretty well too!  ;')
    
    I have one little budgie hen that finds the biggest pieces of broccoli
    and carries it off to a corner and eats it by herself...it's funny
    to see, and really makes you think more about her "personallity"!
    
    j
    

    Max seems to be leukwarm on the carrots.  But, how about if I
    substitute peas for the broccoli?  My husband was eating a big bowl
    of them last night (cooked), and I kept fishing one out of his bowl
    and offering it to Max.  He eats it, although he manages to get
    the "casing" off and eat only the soft inside.  Isn't it amazing
    how dextrous they are with their beaks?
    
    Max was in an exceptionaly fine mood last night.  He actually walked
    up to my hand where it was resting on the back of the couch and
    put his head down and leaned it into my fingers, demanding that
    I pet him.  This behaviour is usually reserved only for my husband.
    He usually accepts petting from me, but rarely asks for it.  If
    only I could figure out how to keep that attitude...
    
    Laura and Max

    Jean,
    
    I was planning on mixing up a batch of food for Hansel and Gretel
    this weekend.  Actually, I'm going to half the recipe.  But, I'm
    wondering if I would be better off using fresh veggies instead of
    the frozen ones?  I know in the past, H&G wouldn't touch frozen
    broccoli.
    
    Also, is it OK to use olive oil instead of safflower oil?
    
    Finally, will Gerbers Hi Pro be in the baby aisle?
    
    Thankss
    	
    	-Nancy

    Hi Yawl!
    
    Nancy...calcium supplements can be found at better pet shops.  You
    can use Avimins, Nekton-MSA, Mega-Mins...lots of the calcium stuff
    I get,  I get a the Health Food Store, but, I would suggest you
    use a prepared version..Too much calcium is JUST as harmful as too
    little...
    
    And the frozen vs. fresh...well, you can use fresh...just be EXTRA
    sure to clean it well, and then to be safe, blanch it for a minute
    or two in boiling water.  You don't want to feed pesticies or parasites
    to the birds!
    
    Olive oil is good, just use a little bit...too much oil (of any
    kind) will make the birds feathers greasy, then they won't breathe
    properly and will get pneumonia!  I use Safflower cause it's so
    light.  But, I also use Sesame oil for a treat!  Now, that's a heavy
    pungent oil!
    
    Last but not least, Yes, all the baby foods mentioned are in the
    baby food isle.  I wish we could take pictures of the cashiers when
    we check out!  All the vegetables and fruit, a bottle of wine, cat
    and dog food, and maybe a couple jars of strained food and a box
    of cereal...they must think we are "model parents" huh?
    
    Laura---peas are good!  That's wonderful.  Wednesday night, we were
    having haddock...Fred, the amazon, screamed like a banshee!  I gave
    her a piece of fish -- no bones-- and she just sat there, happy
    as a 'clam' gently holding that tiny fillet and enjoying every taste!
    
    She gets jealous of the dogs too.  If we play with them, she screams
    about that too!
    
    J
    

    I intended on making this stuff over the weekend.  However, my store
    didn't have Gerbers Hi Pro.  So, is there another flavor I should
    substitute, or anyone know where I cn find the Hi Pro?  I live in
    Pepperell and shop at Victory in Townsend.
    
    I tell you though, I must have looked strange standing in the baby
    aisle screaming about how the store didn't have Hi Pro, and then
    taking all the veggies, etc. out of my shopping cart to go return
    them to their original shelves.
    
    	-Nancy
    

    Good for you Nancy!  I do the same thing when I can't find things
    on "Program".  If you cannot find the Hi Pro..use oatmeal, barley,
    or rice...they are just as good.  I have found that the health food
    stores carry the hi pro and also dehydrated veggies as well!
    
    I Got similar looks Sunday....3 news papers, steak, chicken and
    veggies galore, and then only 4 jars of baby food an 1 box of hi
    pro!  
    
    8^}
    
    J

    Hi Y'awl!
    
    Try a condensed version!  I make this up when I get ready for work,
    and no, I don't get up 4:30 am, like I probably should....
    
    1 Cup rice and 1 Cup water - Microwave on medium for 20 minutes
        (plop in a fist full of raisins to the cooking rice)
    
    1 16 oz bag of thawed frozen corn
    
    1 Cup Hi Pro cereal or any baby cereal
    
    1/2 Cup Bulgar Wheat
    
    1 4-oz jar of squash or carrots
    
    when the rice is cooled, mix the rest of the ingredients.  If you
    need more moisture, add some juice.  Then add your vitamins/minerals
    and if necesssary, medication....(meds for group feedings that is)
    
    Give them a dish full before leaving for work....is will probably
    be gone by lunch time!  It sure saves time and energy!
    
    J

    Whats Bulgar Wheat?
    
    Even though I cannot imagine myself doing this in the AM not matter
    how easy it is.  It takes less than a minute to fill the seed and
    water cups. ;')
    
    	-nancy
    

    Hi Nancy
    
    Bulgar wheat is like a cereal.  It's sold in health food stores.
    It is cracked wheat....tiny little hard crunchy things!  If you
    eat them before cooking them or soaking them, they make grapenuts
    look like marshmellows!
    
    I get it cause it's a legal food on program....3/4 oz, soaked in
    hot water yeilds a decent serving...I think it tastes good, so I
    tried it on the birds....Paul said, "Ummmm...open up...good...geepers
    creepers what an eye.."  I figured he liked it too!  Now I use it
    all the time!
    
    j

    
    Try this recipe!!!
    
    3 Cups Plaster of Paris		4 cups Calcium Carbonate
    4 Cups Bone Meal Power		1 Cup Iron Oxide
    2 Cups Finely Ground Cuttle Bone	1 Cup finely ground oyster shell
    
    Mix with water till pouring consistency.  Fill paper cups.  To adjust
    hardness, increase or decrease the plaster of paris.  Use waxed
    paper cups.  When mixture begins to set, insert U shaped wire so
    that they can be attached to the cage!
    
    
    All of the above ingredients can be obtained at health food stores.
    Cuttle bones are fresher and cheaper if bought in bulk.  check your
    Bird Talk and American Cage Bird Magazines for addresses of suppliers
    of bulk items!
    
    (Note:  if you lightly coat a pot with Crisco, then the plaster
    will not stick to the sides of the pot and washes up real easy!)
    
    J

    Another questions on YAMS!
    
    I have been feeding my bird UNCOOKED sweet potatoes for a while.
    He is still alive!  I just read something in Bird Talk December
    Issue that says you should feed them COOKED.
    
    OH MY GOD!  What have I done to my baby?  
    
    Whats the deal here folks... Why cook it?
    
    Thanks in advance.....

    Gee Karen....don't get too 'Frustricated'!  I don't cook them either!
    They are such a great source of vitamin A, cooking would deplete
    them!  Actually, I scrub them real well, then I blanch them in the
    microwave for a few minutes, with *very* little water!  Then I give
    them the water to drink!
    
    Does the article say why not to feed them raw?  They eat 'em raw
    in the wild!  I'll have to check with Dr. Harrison!  Now, where
    did I leave that book this time.....?
    
    Bye now!
    
    J
    

    Re:  .51
    
    Good Morning Jean.  This is the Canadian parrot fancier talking
    at you.  I am anticipating over the next year to be buying another
    parrot...I am leaning towards an African Grey...but my mind may
    be changed...any suggestions.
    
    Before I buy another parrot I want to have all my homework done.
    I am presently building a large comfy cage for my new pet.  Learning
    from my Blue and Gold (Clyde...now living with new owners) I realize
    how important diet is.  
    
    About this home made mineral block.  Is it better for the bird than
    store bought.  Is it cheaper to make it yourself.  Basically I am
    looking for what the advantages are to this system.  I used to leave
    ground up oyster shell for Cldye and a mineral block...for the record
    he never touched th mineral block.
    
    I am going to review your bird feeding suggestions again.  I found
    them most interesting and informative. 
    
    Shelley

    I talked to Jean for you and she says the homemade mineral blocks
    are made of exactly the same ingredients as the store bought ones.
    If your bird doesn't eat the blocks she says you can scrape them
    and put them on the wet food or seeds if the seeds are a little
    oily.                 
                          
    She also reccomeds buying cuttle bone bulk 15 lbs for about $20.
    You can find them advertised in the bird magazines, they are larger,
    fresher and much cheaper.                                 
                                                              
    Jean is considering buying a parrot and I think she is probably going
    with the Grey. If I was to have my choice I think I would get a
    Grey, I hear they are good talkers and I like thier looks.
        
                                            
    Doug                                                                    
    
    

    Speaking of buying another bird...see item # 60.12 (or there abouts)
     - Buying another Parrot, for my latest experience in my quest for
    my new parrot.
    
    
    Regards,
    Shelley
    
    
    

    Well Jean, now that you're back (YEAH!!!!&(*$&%&**%), I'll tell
    something you might enjoy knowing...
    
    Twice now I have run low on my Topper, and not realized it until
    after the store closes where I get my seed.  So I reached into the
    freezer and got out some of the batch of your recipe that I had
    made.  I substituted some of that for seed, to make the seed last
    until I could get some more.  It really saved me!
    
    Max is getting to recognize it, and now he usually goes right to
    the dish when I put some in his cage.  The dog also stands under
    the cage and waits for Max to toss something.  The dog absolutely
    *loves* this stuff.  So after Max has eaten as much of it as it
    looks like he's going to, I usually let Sunny (the dog) finish up
    the dish.

    Laura, Mad Max, and Sunny

    The other night I was walking past Max's cage with a plate of rice,
    topped with a batch of chile, and he came out of his cage and tried
    some of the rice.  This is the first time he has ever done this.
    (eating off my plate, that is)
    
    	He didn't try any of the chile though, just the rice.  I still
    haven't tried Jean's recipe yet.  I'm going to have to get my butt
    in gear and mix up a batch real soon!
    
    Vern

    My family has expanded!  I got a hand fed baby cockatiel for Christmas.
     A friend gave it to me -- got it from another friend who breeds
    them.  For two weeks prior to coming home, I visited them almost
    every day so my bird would be familiar with me.  I finally got to
    bring him home last Friday once he started eating reggularly.  Then
    last night, my friend the breeder called -- the second bird was
    really upset about the first being gone.  he didn't really have
    time to spend with him since he has 90 other birds, and he decided
    that since he already knew me, he would give him to me rather than
    sell him.  So....I now have two -- both males I think.  It was pretty
    neat when I brought him home today.....I talk him out of the box
    on the other side of the house and the two of them started calling
    to each and going nuts till they found each other.
    
    Now for the question.....they were weaned on millet sprays and peas
    and corn.  So far, I can't get them to eat any vegetables except
    peas and corn.  I keep mixing in Jean's magic bird food, but they
    pick it out and throw it aside.  It's been 5 days now for Sydney
    and he still won't touch it.  I assume I should just be persistent?
     Also, neither seems to drink any water....is it just that they
    are getting enough moisture from the vegies?  (By the way, they
    eat peas and corn with no probblem!).
    
    

    Just off the top of my head I would think that if you made Jean's
    recipe with just peas and corn, instead of all the other veggies,
    you might have some luck.  Then once they start eating that, mix
    in some other veggies slowly but  surely.

    Yeah!  congrats on a new instant family of C'Tiels!.  Nancy gave
    good advise!  Just mix what they like...in time, they will accept
    new foods.  birds are funny...if it's new looking stuff...forget
    it, it frightens them!  then suddenly, one day they will eat that
    new stuff like they had a passion for it!  You can *never* out guess
    a pet bird!!  8^}
    
    My C'Tiels drink loads of water!  It could well be that since these
    guys are just weaned and are eating corn and peas they are, most
    likely  getting an adequate amount!  As long as there is fresh water
    near by, don't worry too much!  8^)
    
    So, just keep on trying...that's the ticket!
    
    Jean Hutchins         
    

    Jean,
    
    Do you see any problem with making up the mix minus the vegetables
    and mixing with fresh vegetables each day?  They will eat it if
    I mix it up with lots of veggies, but not by itself.  
    
    

    Hi Diane...
    
    Sure, what ever way YOUR birds prefer is fine.  the goal is to get
    them to eat it!  And if making a partial mix, then fine!  I've done
    that before.
    
    BTW!!!!  What ever happened to you one afternoon???  Gee, I waited
    till 7:30 then I had to go out!  8^}
    
    Jean

    I'm sorry -- I thought I said I'd "try" if I got through in time.
     As it happened I didn't get through until after 5:30 and then got
    caught in traffic.  Sorry if I miscommunicated!
    
    While we're talking feeding......have you used Scarlet?  I picked
    some up at Dodge Grain and it seems really nice.  Right now my
    cockatiels are eating mostly vegetables and the rice stuff and going
    through a large spray of millet every day ( I bought Carlson millet
    in a 5 lb box).  I've started putting in about 3 Tbsp of seed mix
    in the evening, but mostly they just play in it.....
    
    By the way, I finally got the budgies to eat vegies.  I'd been giveing
    them the mix every day and throwing it away every day.  When I go
    the cockatiels, I started making up a bowl of peas and corn with
    a portion of the mix stirred in.  As soon as the budgies saw the
    peas and corn, they started chowing down on the vegies.  They, however,
    seem to eat all of the peas and corn while the 'tiels just eat the
    inside and throw away the skins....is that all right?
    

        That's right!  That was the night of that huge fire huh?  Well,
    no problem...another time will present itself, won't it! 8^}
    
    The NHAS Co-op uses Dodge Grain and yes, we use Scarlet seed!  It
    is about the least expensive on the market, comparable in quality
    to KayTee and has little or no dust in it!  I am very happy with
    it!  Scarlet does, however, have the highest content of sunflower
    seed though...I use the Scarlet Hook Bill Treat and I usually get
    about 5# of fortified parrot.  Fred gets some parrot mix every couple
    of days, the hook bill treat and fruit and veggies daily too! (Fred
    is the Red Lored Amazon I *was* babysitting and refuse to return!)
    
    My cockatiels all eat the parrot mix too but seem to prefer having
    soft food, junk food and fresh green salads with dressing!  Can
    you stand it!  One says, "I only want home made Italian dressing
    on my salad please!"
    
    All in all, with the exception of one note I saw today, I think
    everyone is feeding a remarkable diet!  When I first got involved
    in birds, if you fed more than seed you were nuts!  According to
    vets, if you fed seed, you were doing an injustice and should
    immediately convert to pellets.  Now there is a nice mix.  The breeders
    and vets got together, the hobbyist and pet keepers all got together
    and we have finally found a happy medium *we* can live with and
    a nice way to preserved the lives of those creatures that infect
    out minds!  8^}
    
    Jean
    
    

    Is it ok to feed birds rice?  I've heard rumors about it expanding
    in birds stomachs and killing them, yet I seem to remember reading
    scientific evidence that this was not true due to heat.
    
    Reason I ask - we eat rice for dinner alot, and always have leftovers.
    However, I cook my rice so that it's still a little crunchy, and
    I use Near East Rice Pilaf.  So, the real question  - is it ok to
    feed the leftover rice to the cockatiels?
    
    I've been making a real effort to increase their fruit/veggie
    consumption and decrease their seed consumption.
    
    	-Nancy

    Cooked rice is fine for birds, what you are refferring to is uncooked
    rice. Uncooked rice could possibly expand in the bird  just like it
    does when you cook it. I don't know if this is even likely as birds
    must eat rice in the wild also.           
                                              Doug            
                                              

    I receive mail from Usenet on pets. This is a different way to get your
    birds to eat something other that seeds. Anybody tried it ?    
    
    Doug                                                   
    
From:	ROLL::USENET  "USENET Newsgroup Distributor  25-Jan-1989 1953" 25-JAN-1989 20:04
To:	@SUBSCRIBERS.DIS
Subj:	USENET rec.pets newsgroup articles

Newsgroups: rec.pets
Path: decwrl!labrea!rutgers!mailrus!ukma!husc6!encore!maxzilla!kaufman
Subject: Re: Crying Cockatoo
Posted: 24 Jan 89 15:53:40 GMT
Organization: Encore Computer Corp, Marlboro, MA
 
In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (baker, tracey) writes:
>
>  Help!  Now that I have all kinds of good stuff to feed Teddy (umbrella
>cockatoo), he doesn't want to eat any of it.  He wants sunflower seeds.
 
 [Fascinating discussion, detailing how cockatoo exercises classical
conditioning on people, omitted ] 
 
This is tough, because the parrot _knows_ he can get you to respond by
"voice command." If you want to break him of that habit, get everyone
their own walkman and crank up the music when he spouts off. But -
back to the question at hand. Start by giving the bird his seeds wet.
Then soak them for 30 minutes before giving them to the bird. Then,
soak them long enough to sprout them. Then, make sure the sprouts are
well sprouted. Voila, your bird has been tricked into eating greens.
Now, start giving other sprouts - mung beans, alfalfa, etc. The
process of weaning from seeds takes weeks. You may notice immediately
that even wetting the seeds makes them less desireable to the bird,
and he may find other food more acceptable in consequence. 
  
Sunflower seeds are in no way an adequate diet for hookbills. They
contain excessive amounts of fat, and not enough vitamins. In some
species, notably African grey parrots, the fat binds with calcium to
the extent that the bird will suffer from severe calcium deficiency.  
  
An alternative technique, often (but not always) effective, is to
switch "cold turkey" to a balanced diet. If you try that technique, I
recommend either Purina Parrot Chow or Lefever's Hookbill Diet. These
are pelleted foods. I got a blue-fronted amazon to think the pellets
were special treats by hand-feeding the Purina pellets only for
especially good behavior. Grudgingly, I yielded to the bird's demand
for them by doling them out more frequently. Finally, I started to
bury some at the bottom of the seed mix, and then the layer of seed
mix started getting thinner... I think, though, that birds like
variety to some extent, so I would never confine them to one food,
even though it is well balanced. 
 
Remember, you are engaged in psychological warfare with your cockatoo
over his health. This is no more difficult (or less difficult) a
problem than getting a sulky child to eat his greens. 
 
  -lar
 Lar Kaufman   <= my opinions          Fidonet: 1:322/470@508-534-1842 
 [email protected]    {bu-cs,decvax,necntc,talcott}!encore!kaufman

    

    I have a question on fortified seed such as Topper and Kaytee. Both
    of these have pellets in them which my budgies never eat, is the
    pellet where the vitamins are or are the seeds impregnated ?
                                                         
    The Topper costs me 6 buck for 2 pounds at Littleton animal hospital
    and the Kaytee $2.50 for 2 pounds. The only difference I could see
    between Topper and Kaytee was Topper has Buckwheat seeds, which
    my birds don't like. I also have found I can buy 50 pounds of Kaytee
    for $25 at a local feed store. Anyone have any comments as to why
    I should invest extra on the Topper ?
    
    I am talking about Parakeet seeds, but assume this would hold true
    for the other mixes Kaytee and Topper sell.
    
    Doug
    

    Hi again Doug,
    
    One thing I was thinking... (Yes I do think occasionally).  If
    you have samples of both Topper and Kaytee, try to sprout the
    seeds.  This may tell you alot about processing.  Both may 
    actually be pumped up with vitamins because they have treated
    the seeds at temps over 130 degrees to kill bugs.  Not that
    this is too bad, but you will be able to determine if infact
    they are processed seeds.  If the seeds do grow, my guess would
    be that the vitamins are in those pellets.
    
    Karen_who_loves_bird_people!

    RE: .71
    Does that mean seed that is impregnated with vitamins 
    are dead seeds, and won't sprout?
    
    Juliette
    

    Okay.... I really started thinking about this one, since I
    use Topper myself.  I just called Topper.  This is what
    they said:
    
    The seeds are NOT heat treated in anyway.  All of their seeds
    will germinate.  ALL the seed is impregnated with the vitamins,
    not just the pellets.  They use centrifugal force and spin
    the seeds with the vitamins.  Because the hulls are pourous
    and because the the force of the spinning action, the vitamins
    do infact make it deep into the seed itself, not just the hulls.
    The Pellets are Mr. Toppers own special receipe which contains
    vitamins and calcium.  As far as parasites and things of that
    nature, they take special care in the way they store the seed
    before and after processing.  This guy said they have never had
    any problems with parasites etc.. getting into the seed.
    
    I feel extra good about using Topper now!  
    
    Karen

    Hi....My name is Ann, and this is my first entry into the bird
    file. 
    I came home about a month ago to a surprise...someone had given
    my fiance a cockatiel to take home.
    From what information we have gotten since then, he is a male
    (LarryBird), he is about a year old (maybe a little older) and The
    food I've been giving him is cockatiel food I got from a pet store,
    bagged by them...that has alot of different stuff in it.  Larry
    seems to like it okay, but I don't think he's crazy about it, and
    he LOVES the millet sprays.  I give him the vitamin drops in his
    water everyday, and I've tried all different vegies, and he won't
    even look at them.  
    
    I feel, from reading all about the foods you people feed, that Larry's
    missing out on alot.  I did try to sprout his food (I left it in
    a little water for about 5 days, and nothing ! (of course I didn't
    give it to him to eat after the soaking)
    
    Anyway, any suggestions ?...
    
    He doesn't really like to come out of his cage either, but every
    night, I take him out (with a bit of squawking) and keep him on
    my shoulder and walk around or watch some tv so he will get used
    to it....but as soon as he sees his cage...he'll jump right back
    into it, and he won't come out...unless I take him out...maybe he
    was ignored in his old place ?
    any suggestions ?
    
    Thanks in Advance,
    
    Ann and LarryBird
    
    

   Hi Ann, welcome to PET_BIRDS!
    
    It sounds like you're doing fine with Larry Bird (I love the name),
    if he'll sit on your shoulder.  Remeber, birds take a long time
    to get used to things.  Perseverence, and then more perseverence
    is the answer.  You are right to keep at him every night.  If there's
    a food he really likes, like the millet spray, try offering him
    some while he is out with you, so that he will associate going to
    you with good things.
    
    As for the food, just keep trying things.  Every night when you
    have supper, take a look at your plate and decide what there you
    could offer him.  And don't eliminate something just because it
    isn't "bird type food".  I almost didn't offer my grey some sloppy
    joe sauce one time, but then decided to give it a try, and he actually
    ate some, hamburger and all! 
    
    Just don't give him chocolate, epecially, and sweets in general
    are not a good habit to get them started on.

    With time Larry Bird should start to bond to one or the other of
    you, and then you will find that he actually demands time with you.
    
    Have fun!
    
    Laura and Mad Max

    Just wanted to thank Laura and Mad Max ...I feel better already.
    
    Ann + LB

    Cockatiels are notoriously stubborn about trying new foods.  My son's
    sure is!!  In fact, they are about the hardest pet bird to get to eat
    well.  What we finally did, and still do, is to give him time to eat
    some seed in the morning after he is uncovered, then take the seed away
    and replace it with Veggies, fruits, parrot chows etc cut into small
    pieces.  Then about 5PM we give him his seed back.  DON'T LET HIM GO 24
    HOURS WITH OUT FOOD THAT HE WILL EAT!!!  It will take awhile, don't be
    upset if you throw out untouched food for weeks.  Eventualy, when he is
    hungry, he will try that weird look stuff out and maybe even find out
    that he likes it.  By the way, there have been a number of articles in
    recent issues of Bird Talk about changing birds eating habits.  In
    fact, I seem to remember one about a very stubborn cockatiel.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Dom

    Thanks Dom....he is VERY stubborn, but I guess (like someone mentioned
    in a previous note) Perserverance is the key.... It's just so
    frustrating....he is a good bird, though very fresh.
    
    thanks again,
    Ann
    

    I have seen a couple of notes now which mention giving their birds
    chicken bones.  This had never occurred to me, I guess because poultry
    bones are so taboo for dogs.  Are chicken bones safe for birds?
    With the powerful beak of a parrot I am concerned that they could
    get splinters caught like dogs can.
    
    Laura and Mad Max

    I give Zack chicken, beef, etc bones often, he loves them!  From what I
    have read and seen with Zack they are not harmful.  In fact, they are
    good for the birds in 2 ways.  First, they get a new toy to play with
    and destroy, what fun!!  Second, the meat left on the bone and the
    marrow inside are full of lots of nutrition.  I believe that ou are
    correct in saying that the general fear of giving bones to birds stems
    from the fear of giving chicken bones to dogs.  There is a difference. 
    Dogs chew the bone with their teeth and swallow the pieces of bone,
    this can cause problems.  Birds on the other hand (not having teeth)
    use their beak to open the bone and get at the goodies inside, just
    like they do with nuts.  They don't eat nut shells.
    
    I, like you was a little scared about giving chicken bones, so I
    researched it and found that it was OK..  Go ahead, Mad Max will
    probably love it
    
    Dom

    I fixed some tunafish last night (with a little mayo...), and my baby
    wanted some.  I gave her some, then I got worried.  Has anyone any
    experience with tunafish and birds?  She probably ate a quarter
    teaspoon full.
    
    Ed

    
    My Vet has recommended that I give my Macaw (I suspect that can
    be extended to parrots) some of any kind of fish that we are eating.
    
    We don't usually eat canned tuna, but Avalon gets fresh tuna all
    the time....
    
    -dick 

    In my egg food recipe for my babies (canaries, finches) I put Cod
    Liver oil.  I have let my Parrots, Conures and Quakers have some
    of this and they LOVE IT.  They are still alive and well.  Cod
    Liver oil is SOOOOOO good for them, rich in vitamin A and D!  
    Don't give too much though...

    I have been making an effort to feed my cockatiels more veggies
    and less seed.  In the past,  They have gotten seed as their primary
    diet, though they have always had an apple, or orange or a pear
    in their cage to munch on.  
    
    On thing I have finally noticed is that I have to be consistent
    when offering new foods.  It is almost guaranteed that the first
    time I offer H&G new food, they won't touch it.  They usually won't
    touch it for a couple of days.  So I have adopted a new rule in
    the house that when I offer a new food, they get that food every
    morning for a week.   If they still won't eat it after a week, then
    I will rule it out as a dislike.  They still get their seed for
    dinner every night.
    
    I thought other people who have picky eaters might want to know
    what is working for me.  I guess I just have to prove to H&G that
    I have more willpower then they have.
    
    	-Nancy

    I purchased a hand-fed baby cockatiel from Wingsong last Friday.
    So now I'm a Bird Person, I'm a Bird Person...8-)  8-)  8-)
    
    Anyway...after I brought him home and settled him in his
    cage I went grocery shopping and got a bunch of fresh veggies and
    fruit.  I just grabbed stuff that I like and he has definite
    preferences.  I thought those with cockatiels who won't eat veggies
    would be interested...  my little guy LOVES Pea Pods.  He eats
    two or three whole ones per day...munches them right down.  (I've
    just started sprinkling his vitamins on them - I figured why not?)
    He also eats one or two small Beet Greens, and genteely munches
    on alphalfa sprouts.  
    
    So far he has ignored the carrot, red pepper, green grape, apple
    slice.  He eats a whole millet spray, some seed, and some of that
    powdery conditioning food what Wingsong sold me.  
    
    I'll write more about him in the Cockatiel note when I find it.
    
    Karen
    
    

    Karen
    
    I'll be interested to see what other veggies and fruits that your
    cockatiel ends up loving.  I have a white cockatiel named Mosi.
    He/She (have no idea what sex she is but I think it is a She because
    she is not a real loud cockatiel and loves to be held, don't know
    if that means anything or not but my aunt had a female and now has
    a male and you can't even go near him.  He is also VERY vocal. 
    Any ways to determine the sex of a cockatiel?  The pet shop told
    me it was very hard.   Good old Doktor Pet.)   Anyway, she doesn't
    care for most fruits and veggies that I have given her.  Won't even
    go near an apple, pear, carrots, etc.  The one thing that she goes
    absolutely crazy over is CORN.  She LOVEs corn.  It's a riot. When
    I give her corn she attacks it and comes up from her dish with a
    face full of corn.  She also likes rice and LOVES celery and lettuce,
    which is not supposed to be too good for them. 
    I only give them to her once in a great while.   She also attacks
    millet spray and does not stop until its gone.   I'll have to give
    the pea pods a try.  Maybe she'll like them.  Any other ideas?
                                                   
    By the way, has anyone tried those jars of mixed dried fruits and
    veggies that I see in all of the pet stores?  I don't know what
    the name is but they are in plastic jars and run about 5 - $6.99
    depending which pet store you are in.   There are different kinds
    for different types of birds.  The owner of one pet store said that
    I could mix them with rice and and store it in the refridgerator.
    I am just wondering if I would be waisting my money.  She's pretty
    fussy.
    
    
    Thanks, Pam
    

    Hi, Pam.
    
    I intend to try Jean's recipe for bird gloop tonight,
    or some time this weekend.  The only thing I may do
    different is use blanched fresh veggies instead of
    the frozen.  
    
    My little guy loves corn too.  It's funny how they
    don's hesitate to try some things and turn their nose
    up at others.  He likes swiss chard too.  
    
    He is very young - about 10 weeks old - and still likes
    to be hand fed.  He has been pretty much waiting for me
    to come home before eating much, and then he prefers to be
    with me rather than eat.  So, the way I've solved this
    problem is to give him his bowl of veggies on the kitchen
    table while I'm eating my supper.  Last night he hopped onto
    the edge of my bowl of spagetti, kinda eyed it and took a
    tentative taste.  He then stepped INto the bowl, and sunk
    right down into it...squish!!  Yucko!!  He liked it, and 
    probably would have settled right in, but I didn't think
    it was a real good idea.  The sauce wasn't hot, by the way,
    just nice and warm...probably reminded him of his baby nesting
    days.  
    
    He eats more heartily when I'm holding whatever he's eating.
    So if I'm holding the pea pod, he'll much it right down.  Same
    with the Swiss Chard and Beet Greens.  He still ignores fruit
    no matter how it's served.  To get him to eat a lot of seed I
    sprinkle some on the flat arm of my couch.  He eats it all up,
    and isn't picky about it.  So, I guess I'll be spoiling him
    for a while.  I took him in and out of his cage last night,
    and he got so he'd eat (mostly millett) for a few minutes and 
    then cry to come out.  Maybe eventually he'll get more independent
    about eating.  It's funny, his cry is more like a baby cry than
    a screech.  
    
    I suppose I'd better introduce myself in the intro note now that
    I've burned the keys on this one.  8-}
    
    Karen and noname the brat
    

    
    	I called the Topper Bird Ranch yesterday to ask about their
    parrot mix, which our vet recommended very highly.  Their current
    price is $12 for 5 lb. or $39.75 for 25 lb. (quite a difference
    in price per pound!).  Their budgie mix is the same price, so it
    may be that they charge the same for all their bird feed.
    
    	Also, they must have moved since .11.  Their current address
    is
    
    		Topper Bird Ranch
    		Rt. 19, Box 529
    		Lexington, NC  27292
    
    	The phone number is still 704-352-2473.
    
    	BTW, the person I spoke to said he could get any bird to eat
    anything the bird should be eating within 24 hours.  I'd sure like to
    know how he does that. 

It appears that my birds are becoming settled in their new home
and are both eating heartily.  I believe that having a second
bird in the cage provides stimulation and perhaps even a little
competition for food, since my first bird doesn't wait for me to
come home anymore before eating.  I think having two birds makes
them each more interested in trying new foods too.  

Their list of favorite foods is ever expanding.  The latest 
additions are collard greens with the stem (they like to knaw
on the stem), carrot tops with greens (at first they only
nibbled on the greens, now they munch the whole thing down,
carrot and all), zuccini (I give them the ends).  

They still haven't shown any interest in fruit, but the other
morning they watched me peel an orange, and then sat on the peels
and ate up the white stringy things you normally peel off the fruit.  
It was gratifying to watch.  This must be how mothers feel when 
their kids eat up all their spinach.  

Oh yeah, they've nibbled on cereal too: cooked oatmeal, shredded
wheat, and Health Valley Amaranth Crunch (unsweetened).  

And, I've never eaten better.  I eat more fruit and greens than
I ever have...have to eat it up, can't let all that stuff go
bad!

Karen

    
    Apparently the Health Valley cereals are not limited to Cockatiels,
    my Macaw really likes them for breakfast with milk and raisins or
    course!
    
    -dick

    I just found somethng by accident that was a major hit with my birds.
    I had made some Kashi for dinner, and threw some in the birds dishes.
    They went nuts!  The macaw, who only goes back in her cage for a
    peanut, ignored the peanuts in the dish and went for the kashi!
     Normally, everything alse is ignored until the peanuts are gone.
     She didn't take her head out of the dish until it was almost empty!
    
    If you aren't familiar with Kashi, it is a pilaf that you can buy
    in the health food store.  It's cooked pretty much like rice, and
    can be used for hot breakfast cereal, cold salads, side dish, etc.
     The ingredients are as follows:
    
    Hulled Whole:
    	Oats
    	Long Grain Brown Rice
    	Rye
    	Hard Red Winter Wheat
    	Triticale
    	Raw Buckwheat
    	Barley
    	Dehulled Sesame Seeds
    
    

    One of the things I really enjoy about my birds is preparing new 
    things for them to eat.  This sounds like something my guys would
    probably love also.  Is it just called Kashi in the health food
    store?  Will they know what I'm talking about?  I think I'll stop
    on my way home and grab some...
    
    Karen

    It's called Kashi, The Breakfast Pilaf.  It's usually with the cereal
    type stuff.  This morning I mixed half kashi anhalf rice/babyfood
    stuff with some vegetables....th�kat went over well too.  
    
    Try it yourself, by the way -- it's really good and a nice change
    from rice.
    
    There is a "new" revived grain at the health food store called quinoa.
     It's very high in protein....I'm going to give that a try also.
    

    In regards to 10.3 jean says that vitamins A and D are both water and
    fat soluable. In mammals, at least vitamins A and D *ARE NOT WATER
    SOLUABLE* and you can actually overdose on either vitamin. However
    vitamins B and C ARE water soluable and your body only absorbs as much
    as it needs. I do not know if this applies to birds, but I would
    consult a reputable vet
    
    -Stan
    

    my bourke babies of 4 months are exhibiting breeding behaver 6 months
    before they are sexually mature.  I have had lots of these babies
    in the past and have not had this problem.  my local bird friend
    says to cut the wheat germ oil out of their diet.  I have never
    done this before is this good?  too much vitimin E??
    
    what do you folks think.

    Is it true that if you own a macaw or any large hookbill, It is
    ok to feed it a well balanced dog food (hard). I was told this by a
    vet, but was wondering if any one else has heard this. I am curious
    because I just received my hand fed macaw saturday. The name of
    the dog food is called "Hills science's K-9 maintance". The vet
    also told me that any dog food containing 20% protien and no more
    than 10% fat is a good diet for a macaw. Any info would be of help.

    Good day,
    
    A cockatoo breeder I know sold a bird to a lady that fed it dog food
    for approximately 3 years.  This bird has since then developed liver
    problems.  I have always been told that meats are good in moderation
    but not on a day in and day out basis.  I would  highly recommend
    against this and get a diet formulated to meet your birds needs not
    your dog's.  Personally I recommend a mixture of Lakes and Topper.
    
    BTW:  Don't forget the Ethoxyquin problems also!  If you want 
    info on this preservative in Dog food, see note 2200 in canine!
    Science Diet most definately has this controversial stuff in it.
    
    Karen

    dog food is high in iron witch is not good for birds.  damages the
    liver.

     OK, the dog food is out! I talked to alot of people and they all
    said it would not be such a good idea, now I have another question.
    The bird I have is about 16 weeks he eats a mixed cereal ( cherio's
    and such) doesn't care to much for fruit yet, I have been trying
    to get him to eat toppers but he doesn't seem interested in it.
    how long can he go without eating? and should I give in and keep
    feedind him cereal? I don't want to hand feed him although the breeder
    said that he might revert back to a handfeeding due to the stress
    of the plane ride. But I didn't have to because he was eating the
    cereal. Also if I give him the dog food he eats that right up.
    He does beg and sit at the bottom of his cage sometimes. Any info
    on weaning would help me a great deal...
    
    B .

    I found that hand feds like to set on my wrist and eat things off
    my plate like spagiti, stur fry with tofu,  wheat glutton and from
    there the sky is the limit or plate of food in this case.  both
    birds I have love turkey bones.

    I noticed that he was hungry enough to eat the toppers. It took
    some time but he has started to eat it. I noticed that he was
    eating some of the hulls also, is this ok? and will it due him any
    harm.
    
    B

    
    I just finished weaning a baby nape. You might want to try some
    monkey chow, which is like a biscuit and can be soaked in warm
    water and then mushed up and mixed with things like broccoli,banana's,
    apples and peanut butter. The nape still likes it now just soaked
    for awhile, just enough so he can hold it with his paw and munch
    on it...Also peanut butter on crackers (unsalted of course). 

    Monkey chow definitely helped my bird wean.  I would go with pellets
    instead of Seed, but that's your choice.  I gave mine a choice of
    about 3 different kinds of pellets, and she chose Lafeber's.  The
    pellets, monkey chow, vegetables and fruit are about all she'll
    eat.  She has never seen a seed, and I hope she never does.
    
    Ed
    

    I was visiting pet stores this week and and found that Animal House
    in Fitchburg now carrys Topper. He tried to sell me on it and I may
    convert, but am undecided at present. He gets around $5.00 for a
    2 lb bag.  He gave me some flyers on Topper if anyone is interested.
    
    I am posting here as Topper sources aroung here as scarce.
    
    Doug

    I have just read some propaganda put out by Topper and would like
    fellow noters opions.
    
    Topper claims that through the use of oils and the "TOPPER PROCESS"
    they are able to Absorb the nutrient additives directly into the
    feed, thereby assuring that if you feed Topper your bird is getting
    100% of his nutrient needs. The only other thing you need to give
    you birds is water !  This sounds too good to be true.
    
    They claim that it is impossible to provide you birds with total
    nutrition by feeding seeds, vegetables, fruit, cuttlebones etc...,
    as you sould have to know the exact chemical makeup of everything
    you are feeding.
                         
    Buddy the Budgie does not eat much of anything except seeds( unless
    I am eating them too) so I have bought a bag of Topper for him.
    My other 4 budgies eat their vegies pretty good, so at least for
    now I plan on using the seeds I have, along with the Vegies, and the
    vitamins in his water.
    
    Last February I bought a bag of Topper and it had pellets in it
    now there are no pellets, just seeds.
                                                        
    Doug
                                     

    

    >    They claim that it is impossible to provide you birds with total
    >    nutrition by feeding seeds, vegetables, fruit, cuttlebones etc...,
    >    as you sould have to know the exact chemical makeup of everything
    >    you are feeding.
         
    This sounds really like propoganda to me.  Granted it's true that
    since we don't know the exact chemical make-up of every food we
    feed that we cannot be sure that our birds are getting total nutrition.
    But, I guess then we would also have to pay particulat attention
    to exactly how many of each type of seed an vegetable was eaten.
    
    I feed a varied diet of veggies, seeds, vitamins, cuttlebones, millett,
    etc.  Granted, every day my birds are eating different things, some
    their nutrition intake varies everyday.  But, over the long run,
    I am sure that my birds are getting their proper nutritional
    requirements. If my birds were deprived of certain vitamins and
    minerals over the long run, then their would be cause for concern
    of health related deficiencies.
    
    As a last note, I would want to know how much research Topper has
    done into avian nutrition, and how they can guarantee that if my
    bird ate exclusively Topper seed that my bird would receive 100%
    of it's nutritional requrements.  What if my bird doesn't eat type
    X seed one day?  What if my bird only eats half as much as ormal
    one day?  Further more, I'm sure that as more research is done on
    Avian nutrition, new findings will result in changes to the recommended
    bird diet.  Just think about all the new news that is uncovered
    about human nutrition every week.
    
    	-Nancy

    

    In Toppers flyer they talk about their own breeding program, and
    how they have bred over 300 species of birds in the last 20 years
    in there own aviaries.
    
    Anyone know of anyone who has purchased a bird from TOPPER ?
                                                      
    Nancy, If you send me your mailstop I will gladly send you a flyer.
        
    Doug

    My bird eats primarily Topper (no vitamins added to water) and does
    great.  I offer him other foods sometimes, but I am inconsistent
    with it, and he won't eat more than a bite or two of most things,
    so I don't think he's getting that much added value from it.  
    
    Lately I have been trying the KayTee brand, as Topper is getting
    harder and harder to find consistently.  It has vitamins added too,
    but says nothing about the process used to add it.
    
    I have decided from the number of inconsistent things one hears
    about most areas of bird care, that there is not much of a scientific
    base of knowledge out there.  All you can do is listen to people
    who have been raising and caring for birds for a long time, experiment
    yourself, and when you hit on something that works for your bird,
    stick to it.
    
    Laura and Mad Max

    Thanks for you input Laura, Buddie the Budgie also doesn't eat much
    in the way of Veggies, that why Topper sounds good to me also.
    
    When buying Kaytee, be aware the last time I looked the fortified
    mix contained Ethoxyquin.
     
    Doug

    Do we know that Topper dosn't?  If you follow CANINE, you know that
    in dog food, if a dog food manufacturer doesn't explicity add the
    chemical itself, it doesn't have to put it on the bag.  But if a
    supplier adds it, it could still be in there.  I don't know if laws
    are similar for bird food or not.
    
    I've been thinking of calling Topper directly and see if I can get
    it shipped to me.  I have been very happy with the food itself in
    terms of Max's health.  I just have trouble finding it all the time.

    TOPPER doesn't have Ethoxyquin in it to my knowledge.  Ethoxyquin is 
    a FAT preservative.  Usually it is found in Poultry by-product meal 
    if the Poultry was pre-processed.  Again though, it is used to preserve
    animal fat.
    
    

    I know we could beat this subject to death but my new vet (Dr. Skip
    Nelson in Seattle) has scared me.  He says seeds are natures emergency
    food, not designed as a steady diet, and he says I should remove
    all seed and feed only LaFeber's Avi-era Finch Food.  If I want
    to add interest to the diet, I should add greens and any other 'live
    food' they will eat.
    
    Normally, my birds get egg biscuit, egg rearing and conditioning
    food, a square of turf, canary seed and foreign finch mix, dried
    insects, millet spray, apples and sprouted seeds.  They also get
    vitimins in their water and electrolites.
    
    I took a Gouldian in with a broken leg and he decides she's
    mal-nourished and under mineralized!  He's seen three of the fourteen
    and still says too much seed, get rid of it.
    
    He wants totally removed seed -- not mixed!  His words are "are
    the kids going to pick the Flintstones out of the bowl of M & M's?"
    
    Now I'm thinking it's either starve them to death, totally mis-manage
    the aviary or try to mix the various foods to achieve a healthy
    balance.
    
    Has any other vet said totally remove seeds???

    This is the controversy for the 90's, isn't it.  You will find that
    possibly conversing with a second vet will not yield you the same
    response.  More and more experts are going with the philosphy that
    pellets are the "ONLY" complete feed.  I agree mostly but....
    
    I would first recommend that you don't supplement with vitamin/mineral
    products that go in the water.  This as discussed doesn't produce
    the desired results.  See older notes on this.  As a recap, the
    supplement evaporates quickly and also comes in a base which quickly
    grows bacteria.  I was at a show recently where some of the birds
    water was yellow (ie vitamins..) the judged reamed them for it.
    
    Pellets are great, but some have found that their birds get boared
    easily with them.  I mix a good vitamin treated seed with a pellet 
    and now toppers new SQOZ.  At first my birds picked, but more and more
    they began to realize the pellets and (i call cheerios) "SQOZ" are
    not too bad.  My birds also get a wide variety of table food
    and fresh veggies mixed with a vitamin/mineral supplement daily.
    I believe vitamin treated seeds are a great thing, next best to
    pellets.  Try some (I like Topper).  
    
    Your finches will love cucumber and other veggies.  Sprinkling your
    vitamin/mineral on them will promote their ingestion of it.
    
    As far as seeds being bad, I say no so long as its good seed and
    is accompanied with fresh water and fresh veggies with a good
    vitamin/mineral supplement.  This has given me healthy finches,
    canaries, conures, parrots etc...  
    
    Hope this helps...  Karen from Colorado

    Thanks, Karen! I have increased the amount of store bought fresh
    greens, they like bok choy and broccoli, don't like zuccini and
    merely dabbled at cucumber.  However, I've now mixed the pellets
    with their seed mixture hoping to increase the pellets in proportion
    to the seed as time goes by.
    
    But what about the millet spray?  I always felt they got as much
    fun out of eating it as the nourshment, crawling up and down.  I
    used to give a couple sprays per day (for 14 birds) but now reduced
    it to one per week.  Too much or too little?
    
    This season has produced no Serins although I did pretty good last
    year.  However, it could be due to the stress of international 
    relocation, 30 days' quarantine and altered diet.  I'm still waiting
    to see if the Gouldians recover enough to breed in another month
    or so.
    
    Thanks for the info,
    
    Bye for now,
    
    Eileen

    European Serins?  I love their sweet song!  I'm sure your move
    has much to do with their breeding.  As far as millet, if you
    leave them alot, they will end up eating it over their normal
    food.  My finch mix has millet seed in it anyway.  I usually
    only hang about two stalks a month in their cage.  I'm suprised
    your guys don't like the cucumber.  Mine attack this before
    anything!  Hang in their, when they adjust to their new home 
    I'm sure they will get write back into the swing of things!
    
    Let us know!
    
    Karen

    Topper's new what?  I haven't heard of it before.  Can you give
    more info?
    
    thanks,
    Laura

    Topper has a new product called SQOZ (stands for square o's).  Its got
    lots of good stuff in it and better then anything, my birds are eating
    it.  I love mixing new things with my birds food and love it even
    more when they actually eat it.  Try some!  They looke like green and
    brown and red cheerios.

    The new Topper sounds like a copy of the Scenic Extruded diet.
    The birds love it.  It's a tad expensive though.  I looked into
    a distributorship...that would have made it more affordable. 
    
    The stuff is soooo good, I experimented on a batch of baby cockatiels
    and budgies.  The cocktiels ate the regular baby formula and the
    budgies at the new Scenic diet, melted to a liquid for the babies.
    They *ALL* thrived!  It's good stuff!
    
    Jean
    (good thru 12/29/89)  boo hoo again!
    

    Birds of Paradise, Plaistow NH is now carrying the Topper's products.
    I got the seed mix and gave it to my Quaker who loved it!  I also
    got the SQOZ and am mixing them in with the morning veggies .

    Hi 
    
    I have heard that apple seeds can be poisonous if parrots crack
    them open. Has anyone else heard this ?  I haven't been giving
    Joker(blue front amazon) whole apples because of this. I give him
    slices, but it would be less work for me and more fun for him if I
    could give him whole apple or even the cores.
    
    Also he loves raisens, is there any problems with too many raisens ?
    Some old notes mention blanching raisens, is this necessary ? I usually
    give him about 20 raisens 3-4 times a week.
    
    Doug
    

    Hi Doug,
    
    I've heard that about apple seeds too, so I cut out the core part when
    I chop the apples up.  I give the bird the golden yellow and the
    regular raisins all the time as a treat.  Sometimes I cook it with
    the mixed grains I use as a treat, or if I am trying to add weight
    to a bird who is on the thin side.  There is a lot of sugar in the
    raisins, so you do run the danger of having the bird eat them to 
    the exclusion of better stuff, like kids with candy bars kind of,
    so monitoring approximately how many a week seems like a good idea.
    20/week doesn't seem too much for a big Amazon.  Other opinions
    and experiences out there???
    
    Linda

    One of our (female) Grey's treats is the apple core !  We've been
    giving her this (approx once a week) for years. She really get into the
    seeds in the core, as opposed to the 'fleshy' bits.
    Mind you, she has a strange diet - basically anything EXCEPT parrot
    food !  
    
    Jim Burke

    Apple seeds contain some trace of arsenic.
    
    I am new to this conference, as horses are my speciality.  However, I
    do enjoy birds and have an orange canary (have forgotten the correct
    name) and A tri-colored nun (mannagian (sp)).  I lost one canary and
    one nun this past winter/spring.  The remaining finch will be four
    years old this fall.  I am not sure from what I read here what other
    things to feed these birds, especially the finch.  He really only eats
    the seeds that I provide, along with the "Drop-a Day" vitamin that goes
    in the water.  I scrape the cuttlebone into the seed, as he doesn't eat
    any the tradtional way.  He appears healthy, ie. glossy, tight
    feathers, small quiet song.  Has his own grass nest to sleep in and a
    bath tub to bath in daily.  What else can I give him. 
    
    The canary's seed I buy from the breeder who makes up his own.  The
    seed is always fresh and clean.  Mr. Antonian has breed, judged and
    shown champion canaries for over 25 years, and is a great consultant.
    The canary is fed carrots, chicory, dandalion leaves, milliet spray. 
    What else is good for canaries?
    
    thanks for any comments.
    
    stephanie

	When I buy a bag of seed mix (without sunflower) I usually add some
	pine nuts (in this area you can get them in several stores,
	Fins & Feathers comes to mind), some extra hot peppers, some
	peanuts, a coupla handfuls of raisons, some corn flakes.  I put
	everything in one of those zip-lock bags, shake like hell, and
	store it in the frig.  I always wander thru the food sections of
	pet stores looking for different sorts of "goodies" that I can add
	to my creation.  Then I check the bottom of the cage (under the
	grate) and if Av has not thrown them out of the food bowl, they
	become a part of the general rotation.  

	

	This is the basis of my Macaw's diet, of course we add pizza, 
	chicken legs, salad speghetti with sauce etc.

	I have been warned that the pine nuts are very fattening, but
	Avalon absolutly LOVES them.

	-dick

    Has anyone tried Crazy Corn??? It comes in a bag in three varieties  --
    Original, Pasta & Nuts, and Rainforest Rice Pudding.  The original has
    to boiled for an hour, Pasta & Nuts for 10-12 minutes.  I don't know
    about Rice Pudding as it is always sold out before I get there (assumes
    it must be good).  Anyway they all contain as a base rolled corn, wheat
    and other grains.  Original adds beans and hot peppers.  Pasta and nuts
    adds (obviously) pasta and nuts and dried apples, peaches and
    pineapple.  The original has a spicy flavor, P & N a sweeter, fruity
    flavor.  I cook up a 1# bag and freeze ice cream scoops full in
    sandwich bags.  Just grab one and add vegies, fruit, cereal etc. 
    
    My birds absolutely love the P & N version (severe macaw, quaker and
    cockatiels).  They liked Original but not as much.  Want to try Rice
    Pudding.  
    
    

    I remember reading somewhere that you shouldn't give birds yeast bread. 
    The reason had something to do with the yeast expanding in their  crops.
    My birds seem to love yeast bread though.  Several articles I've read
    advocate whole wheat bread.  I make my own bread (I have a bread
    machine, I'm not that industrious) so I know it has no preservatives,
    etc.  I usually add seeds or raisins or oats etc.  So....what's the
    opinion.....is it all right to give it to them even though it has
    yeast????

    	MY bird usually only eats the crust though anyways and I would
    think that that would be safe.  Cory's moto is, "if it ain't crunchy I
    don't want it!"
    
    Tom

    
    All my cockatiels LOVE wheat bread!!!  We buy a "lite" wheat bread.  
    Maybe there's less yeast!  :^)    
    
    Chris D.

    I don't know anything about yeast hurting birds but I do know that
    the baking process kills the yeast so my guess is that yeast bread
    will not hurt the bird.
    
    Mary Ann

    According to the person I got Cassie from (cockatiel) and our avian
    vet, as long as he gets NO dairy products, no sugar, and no spicy
    sauces, he can basically eat almost anything. 

    So far we have found that he loves chow mien noodles, pizza crust,
    Cheerios and Crispix, and nearly any fruit or vegetable (especially
    carrots). What surprised us was that the vet suggested a treat once in a
    while of hard boiled egg - not too much at a time - and also fresh egg
    shell that had been rinsed and allowed to dry then crushed. Obviously
    there are things that your kids may be allergic to so watch out and if
    you have any doubts at all check it out in a book or with your favorite
    vet.

    Steve, Shirley and Cassie

    
    You know, I've never even concidered it until someone asked me, can
    cockatiels eat any meat??  I've never tried it, I don't plan on it, but
    I'm curious.
    
    Chris D.

    	Well mine liked Corned Beef!  He generally stays away from meats
    but for some reason he loved corned beef when we had it a while ago.
    His favorite by far though is scrambled eggs..of and pasta cooked
    al dente (?Sp).
    
    Tom

    I feed my birds anything I eat, except Chocolate, alcohol, caffeine(I
    don't eat Advocado so they don't get it either, Yuck), and I limit
    FAtty and Sweet foods. I don't understand why anyone would say don't
    feed Spicy foods. Also there should be no problem with Dairy foods or
    foods with sugar, as long as not in excess.
    

    Re the following
>>  <<< Note 10.133 by ROYALT::PULSIFER "UNHAMPERED BY FACTS AND INFORMATION" >>>
>>                                   -< Huh ? >-
>>
>>    I feed my birds anything I eat, except Chocolate, alcohol, caffeine(I
>>    don't eat Advocado so they don't get it either, Yuck), and I limit
>>    FAtty and Sweet foods. I don't understand why anyone would say don't
>>    feed Spicy foods. Also there should be no problem with Dairy foods or
>>    foods with sugar, as long as not in excess.
>>    
>>
    Doug,
    	Thanks, I was worried for a moment.  My birds just love Cheese. 
    They don't get it often, but they do love it when the get it.  I feel
    much better now.

    Jim Morton

    I agree with Doug. Number one rule - Moderation. As for spicy - most
    birds LOVE Hot peppers! My tiels love chicken - as does my African
    Gray. Our Conure is a little more picky about what he eats. When momma
    and papa are feeding the little tiels - they get bread once a day -
    usually multi-grain. Otherwise once or twice a week. They also get a
    rice mixture once or twice a week. I don't feed them sweet things (like
    cake or pie or such) and stay away from caffine (of course chocolate
    and avacado!!). 
    
    		Dora

    My Vet said that I should give my parrot cheese because of the calcuim.
    I give Spock 1/4 of a slice of cheese each day with is fresh bean mix.
    It took a few weeks before Spock would even taste the chesse but now
    he loves it.
    
    Mary Ann

    The one thing that my teil loves in icecream. when he sees me 
    get a cup of icecreams he starts to pass back and forth
    and make a general nusence of himself till he gets a few bites.
    Also likes my morning toast..
    
    suzanne
    

    I have a 5 year old Cockateil who eats a modified version ofJean's Magic 
    Bird Glop almost exclusively.  I throw a cup or so of pellets into the 
    mix before I freeze it and use tofu instead of meat. He also gets sprouts
    and extra fresh veggies (favorites: zucchini, pea pods, carrots) almost 
    every day. 
    I've read different things in here about the value of dairy products. 
    I rarely give him cheese as we don't normally have it on hand.  Some
    folks in the early notes say it's crucial for the bacterial content --
    is this true?  I have a book (_Cockateils: A Complete Introduction_, by
    Elaine Radford) that says
    		 "Milk. . . is actually quite worthless to them
    since their bodies lack the ability to digest it.  (Afterall, milk is
    one of the things  that make us mammals different from birds.) . . . 
    Although a dairy product, the processing of chheese naturally converts
    it into a more digestibleform than the milk from which it came."
    
    	I guess basically I'm wondering if I'm depriving my bird of
    necessary nutrients.  Any clarification would be appreciated!
    
    Thanks,
    	Laura