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Conference oass::racers

Title:Racers and Racing
Notice:As long as it's not NASCAR or F1 or Drags...
Moderator:RHETT::BURDEN_D
Created:Tue Aug 08 1995
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:391
Total number of notes:4486

8.0. "Where to begin??" by POBOX::KALLEVIGB (Onward through the Fog...) Wed Jul 12 1989 01:30

    A request from a spectator only. I have been following this Conference
    for awhile and like most (sorry Mr. Mod) enjoy watching the sport.
    I have a personal interest in PPG Indy cars because of a small part
    of sponsership with Scott Pruett of the Bud team. My question is:
    
    I'd like to start racing (I understand the $$ and sponsership,
    heartaches etc... involved) But would like to know the most *sensible*
    way to get started. I fancy the Winston Cup series and am an avid
    fan. I guess what I'm asking is what are the different levels to
    work up through the years to reach a certain level.
    
    Like  any sport I suspect there will be many opinions and that's
    why I'm posing this question to all of you. Just don't tell me it
    can't be done! Difficult, yes, impossible, no.
    
    Thanks,

    
    B.J.
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8.1RENT-A-RACER???MFGMEM::LORDFri Aug 03 1990 13:537
    What about rental race cars?  Are they worth it?  Is it cheaper in the
    long run?  I've seen prices vary from about $500 for a SSB Toyota MR-2,
    to about $1500 for a Spec Racer.  I'm sure other cars are even more
    expensive.  Has anyone seen anything cheaper?  What would a Club Ford
    typically rent for?
    
    Bill
8.2RentALLVAX::DENNERLEINLooking for a personal nameTue Aug 07 1990 18:318
    I too am looking for a RENT-A-RACER.  I am taking a Driver's School and
    need a car to use.  I could use mine, but it's not in great shape.  I
    would use a rental car, but that's illegal and if I wrecked it I
    could get nailed for the cost of the car.  So I'd like to rent
    something I could take on the track legally and still have some fun.
    Any Ideas?
    
    Jesse
8.3speaking from experienceALIEN::MCCULLEYRSX ProThu Aug 09 1990 11:5293
    There is no set scale for rental prices;  they are arbitrarily set by
    the car owner based on a combination of their financial picture and the
    marketplace in general.  My impression is that you can get a pretty
    broad range of prices if you look around enough, but also that the
    range of value can be pretty broad too.
    
    I rented once, a friend's GT-2 prepared Datsun 240-Z for my first
    driver school (because both one of my partners and I needed the same
    school, and I was better connected for the rental).  I considered it a
    success, although the car started running rough in one of the afternoon
    sessions.  The owner listened and commented that it sounded like a
    broken exhaust to him, so we ran it for the practice starts and
    five-lap sprints at the end of the day.  By then it was so bad it would
    try to die coming down pit straight at LRP and the only reason it kept
    running was that momentum would turn the drivetrain until it caught
    again.  Needless to say the quality of that tracktime was diminished
    somewhat (although still quite valuable in its own way).  At the end of
    the session the car somehow made it back to the paddock, where Lloyd
    pulled the valve cover and discovered one valve stem was about 3"
    shorter than the rest!  His comment: "well, that engine owed me
    nothing, it had 90,000 miles on the street before I put it in a racecar
    18 months ago."  (My response: "you should've told me it was an
    antique").
    
    Anyway, I passed the school and consider the value for that rental
    quite good (heck, I got experience dealing with mechanical failure that
    I wouldn't want to gain on my own equipment!) but it could easily have
    been otherwise.  Caveat Emptor.  And more, some things (like that) you
    can't predict or protect.  It was a relatively reasonable rental cost,
    and the truth is, you generally get what you pay for.
    
    I have considered setting up to do rentals in my Club FF, but there are
    some hurdles that make it difficult for me (mostly the same ones that
    make it difficult for me to run my own events).  I would expect pricing
    to be in the neighborhood of $1000, possibly somewhat negotiable
    depending on specifics.
    
    Rental of other classes definitely can be more expensive.  About a year
    ago I had a project that almost came together which would've included
    rental of a Formula Continental (FF2000) which I priced at $3000 for
    the one race.  An IMSA GTU can rent for under $5k up, and the GTPs (or
    Camel Lights) rent for somewhat more.
    
    Are they worth it?  You pays your money, you takes your choice.  If you
    rent you have no control.  If you rent for an IMSA event, you may not
    even get track time (multi-driver events, if the first driver trashes
    it, you are S.O.L.).  Even for SCCA events, it is not certain just what
    you'll find.  If you do business with an established race prep shop
    (South Shore Racing, Continental Crossle, etc.) you will pay top dollar
    and get a well prepared car, with your liability exposure high.  If you
    rent from a racer who is looking for a little revenue (perhaps to stave
    off the IRS) you will probably pay less, get Hobson's choice, but still 
    with high liability exposure (maybe less, 'cuz the car is worth less).
    
    Other side of the coin, you have no capital invested, and no time or
    money costs for preparation (although all those costs are certainly
    recovered in the rental price).  The market for used FFs (which is what
    I watch and know best) right now seems non-existent, probably because
    of the season but also because there seem to be few cars on the market. 
    This seemed true last winter also.  I've been considering selling my
    car, just because I'm not using it and it doesn't make sense having the
    capital tied up.  My asking price would be up around $5500 to $6000
    (maybe more, depending on market - I'd ask considerably more in an
    Autoweek ad than I would in NER's Pit Talk or on the net!) and the car
    will require some investment of money and work to be track-ready. 
    Annual budget for preparation alone can run a few thousand (up to $5k
    to do it right, under $2k if you cut corners).  Event costs will
    include a couple of hundred bucks per weekend that might (or might not)
    be included in a rental price (eg, tires, oil, gas).  You will still
    have some of the same costs regardless, rentals don't include entry
    fees nor your travel expenses (although they should absorb expenses for
    the rental supplier).
    
    Other options might include partnerships or shared ownership, also
    lease or timeshare deals might be possible.  Don't know for sure but I
    think some rentals offer deals on packages or blocks of races.  I've
    also thought about what it would take to put together some sort of deal
    for timesharing or block-mode leasing rather than per-race rentals on
    my car, but that again gets into the problems of prep time and costs,
    capital investment and all that.
    
    Bottom line is, racing is not cheap, in terms of time or money.
    You can reduce your cost in one by increasing it in the other.
    How does your budget look for each?
    
    In general, I'd say rentals are a good value.  They minimize time cost
    at the expense of money.  Shopping around and knowing the field can
    save money or maximize value for money, but values can vary a lot. 
    They're not a panacea, but can be a good deal.
    
    - Bruce McCulley
    
    (one-time renter, former partnership member, now sole owner)
8.4You can't take it with you, even if you do have itSUBWAY::JANKOWITZIlliterate? Write for free pamphlet.Thu Aug 09 1990 12:4717
I just heard that an ARS car for a weekend is about $35,000!

There are some problems I think have to be looked out for. Usually if 
it says $1500, that's assuming you bring the car back in the condition 
it went out in. If something breaks you will probably have to pay for 
it or get into a fight about whether it was your fault. Some places 
will require you to post a bond in the event that you damage the car. 
I think the Barber Saab series used to do that. Then some places 
charge too much to do the repairs. Again, I heard that happened with 
the Barber Saab series.

As far as partnerships you can have similar problems. My brother went 
into a partnership on an IMSA GTU car. It went fine for a couple of 
years. He became discontent with the other owner and wanted to get 
out so he could get into a more competative car. Then things got messy.

Money, that's all it takes! Anybody got some extra I can have?
8.5ALIEN::MCCULLEYRSX ProThu Aug 09 1990 15:5419
    Barber Saab still requires posting a deposit.  Their cost is something
    like $6500 per race, with a minimum prize of $500 for a net rental cost
    of $6000 assuming no damage.  There is a $5000 deductible insurance
    included with a maximum coverage of $15000, they claim only one
    incident ever exceeded that ceiling.
    
    Anybody who rents is going to charge for repairs due to crash damage.
    The shop rates charged will almost certainly include additional profit.
    At least some rentals will not charge you for mechanical failure but
    will charge for all crash damage even if caused by mechanical failure. 
    Of course there can be bones of contention there too, did the engine
    come unglued because it was a mechanical basketcase to begin with or
    because you shifted it at 16000 all day?
    
    Partnership dissolution can certainly be very problematic.  A good
    partnership can work well, but if it's not good or not working well it
    can be the proverbial rock and a hard place...
    
    As the saying goes, all it takes is cubic $$$ 
8.6ALLVAX::DENNERLEINLooking for a personal nameThu Aug 09 1990 17:368
    Ahh, but I'm not looking for a full breed race car to rent for a race.
    I'm just looking for a sports car to rent for this driving course.  I
    would like to rent something with a little pep and a little handling
    that doesn't have a clause in the rental agreement that says that I
    can't use this car for a high performance driving class.  You know what
    I mean.
    
    Jesse
8.7pessimist at workBEING::MCCULLEYRSX ProThu Aug 09 1990 19:1420
    re .37 - guess it depends on what the "course" really is.  For an SCCA
    school you'll still need a sufficient degree of preparation to pass
    tech, for other events (like COM) you may be able to get by with less
    stringent prep standards.  I can't say for things like "track time" or
    RCCA or anybody else. 
    
    The other thing to consider is a very cogent statement I remember
    reading in the COM newsletter a while back, don't remember exactly but
    it was something to the effect that 
    	YOU SHOULD BE PREPARED TO TAKE ANYTHING YOU PUT ON A RACETRACK HOME
    	IN A BASKET!
    If not, you're not prepared to accept the potential consequences,
    and/or you're not being honest with yourself about them.
    
    So, if you are looking for a car to use in some track driving, you
    really should make sure that whatever you come up with fits that
    statement.  For myself, that means sufficient rollcage etc. to be a
    fully prepped SS car if not a pure race car (Formula, SR, etc.).
    Not just the matter of being ready to take it home in a basket but also
    making sure that I don't go home in the same basket!
8.8source for rentalsPCOJCT::MILBERGI was a DCC - 3 jobs ago!Fri Aug 10 1990 11:4812
    I used to crew once in a while for the 'rent_a_racers' for
    
    	Transatlantic/Essex Racing
    	Atlanta, GA
    	Phil Creighton	(404) 889-4096
    
    We ran Sports 2000, Formula Ford and Camel Lights.
    
    If you call, give Phil or Mike Gue my regards...
    
    	-Barry-
    
8.9It's easy!!!SWAM2::JACOMB_SCI know enough to be dangerous!!Fri Aug 10 1990 17:213
    How about taking a ZR-1 Vette forn an extended test drive 8^)...
    
    -Scott
8.10ALLVAX::DENNERLEINLooking for a personal nameMon Aug 13 1990 14:036
    Hmm Take home in a basket.  Well, I've been looking for a new car
    anyway, so maybe I'll buy the new car and keep my current car as a
    basket case.  I really want to take this course, but the $$$ are tough
    to come by.  We will see.