Conference nyoss1::market_investing

    
    	Quick & Reilly			800-882-1136
    
    	Fidelity Brokerage Service	800-225-6767
    					800-225-1799
    
    
    
    

	StockCross
	One Washington Mall
	Boston, MA 02108
	(617) 367-5700
	(800) 392-6104 (in Mass.)
	(800) 225-6196 (outside Mass.)

	StockCross has one simple formula for commissions:

	$25.00 plus 8.5 cents a share

	No minimums, no maximums, no matter what the principal amount.

	For example, one share of Berkshire Hathaway, selling at $8900 a share,
costs only $25.09 in commission.  One hundred shares of anything costs $33.50.
I believe the only time StockCross is more expensive than the typical "X dollars
plus Y percent of principal" commission rates is if you're buying large numbers
of penny stocks.


	Nick

    Waterhouse Securities  (Boston),    800-934-4415 or 617-451-9192

    			BROWN & Company

    
    Pacific Brokerage Services, Inc 
    5757 Wilshire Blvd, Suite 3
    Los Angeles, CA 90036 
    Tel. 213-939-110
         800-421-8395 
    
    PBS is the cheapest discount brokerage firm, $25.00 flat commissions
    upto 300 shares..

    
    25$ sounds pretty good...  I just called and the fellow I spoke with
    said that there's an additional $3 charge for "shipping and handling".
    
    I didn't ask what needed to be "shipped" or "handled" (why ask why?, as
    the commercial says).  The bottom line is that it is $28, not $25
    (which is still pretty good).
    
       /Jim
    

Intersting that nobody mentioned Schwab. Call 800 info for their number.

National 800-547-6337
Oregon   800-452-6774

    	Hiatt Enterprises
    	Frank Strange
    	Millis, MA
    	1-800-542-2057

    

    Vanguard Discount Brokerage Services
    
    1-800-992-8328   Orders
    1-800-992-8329   Quotations
    1-800-992-8327   Customer Service

    Claims to be the lowest of the low.
    
    Marsh Block & Co.
    800-366-1500
    
    Anybody have experience with this company??

    
    Brown & Company  (Boston, Jersey City, Los Angeles, Orlando,
    Philadelphia, and Chicago).
    
    Commissions are $25 + 3�/share on NYSE,ASE, and $25 + 2�/share OTC,
    with no extra charges for limit orders.
    
    This is substantially better than StockCross, which is approximately
    $25 + 8�/share, plus $10 for limit orders.
    
    The difference is especially important if you plan on trading
    low-priced shares.
    
       /Jim
    

    
    Brown & co "Prerequisite's":
    
    $30K income
    $10k to open acct (not for small timers like me)
    5 yrs previous experience with a broker? (not for beginners, again me)
    
    Is this typical of a discount broker? Or full service broker for that 
    matter?
    
    

    Brown & Co's rules are particularly restrictive.  They are only really
    set up to handle investors who know exactly what they are doing, and
    who can afford to settle all trades immediately (they won't accept a
    trade unless your account can settle immediately, i.e. you have
    sufficient cash or margin available).
    
    Other discount brokers will have much more relaxed rules, including no
    requirement for a set amount of open an account of any amount of
    previous experience (at least for stock trading).

    
    I don't think that Brown's restrictions are reasonable.  Their rates
    are very competitive with other discounters, but they are not the least
    expensive around.  Why not go with another firm, such as Aufhauser,
    which has lower rates but none of the restrictions?
    

    re: .15
    
    Is Aufhauser really less expensive?  I looked a lot, and Brown was the
    lowest rates I could find?  Major stocks are $25+.03/share, options
    start at a $21 minimum.

    
    Aufhauser is also 25+3�/share (NYSE), but is 2�/share OTC/AMEX. 
    Note that Brown's options rate is *per option*; Aufhauser is 25 +
    2.50/additional option, so if you buy more than one it's much cheaper
    with Aufhauser.  If you compare the two in detail, I think you'll find
    that Aufhauser has the better price structure...  and no 10K minimum. 
    And no requirement that you *must* keep the stock in street name (not
    that there's anything wrong with this, I just don't like living by
    their rules if I can avoid it).  I do wonder what happens with stock
    held in street name in a 1987-style situation, though.
    
    I also like Aufhauser's service... they're actually _friendly_ as they
    take your money
    
        ;)
    

    Brown is .02/share for OTC as well.  Options vary based on the price of
    the contract, with a $21 minimum - but many options are $2-$4/option,
    so one can make reasonable trades at the $21 minimum.
    
    I hadn't heard of Aufhauser before, though - does sound like a
    reasonable firm, especially if they don't have a $10K minimum.  Do they
    require immediate settlement of trades?

    
    	How does on get in touch with Aufhauser?  They sound ok but no
    one left a telephone number or address.
    
    thanks.
    

    for the neophyte, can someone explain the difference between
    discount brokers and other brokers. why would one not use
    discount brokers if it is in general cheaper  ?
    
    thanks

    Discount brokers come in many flavors adn charge different rates. the
    deep discounters are the cheapest and you basically get order
    ecxecution. The Discounters,Fidelity,Schab,Quick,try to provide you
    with some service but try to remain about 30 % cheaper than dealing
    with full service like Merrill Lynch or Shearson. Full service includes
    a broker who will give you advice.            
    

re: < Note 140.21 by KYOA::LAZARUS "David Lazarus @KYO,323-4353" >>>
      
>    Discount brokers come in many flavors adn charge different rates. the
>    deep discounters are the cheapest and you basically get order
>    ecxecution. The Discounters,Fidelity,Schab,Quick,try to provide you
>    with some service but try to remain about 30 % cheaper than dealing
>    with full service like Merrill Lynch or Shearson. Full service includes
>    a broker who will give you advice.            
 
      A good, short summary!  Can you add a bit more?
                                          
      � What services to discounters like Fidelity, Schab, Quick (and, I
      guess  Jack  White  is  in  this  group?)   provide   that   "deep
      discounters" do not?

      � Maybe you should also name a few "deep discounters".

    re: what's the difference between discounters?
    
    Top of the line discounters, like Fidelity and Schwab, offer services
    like 24-hour order placement and accounts that will pay interest on
    balances awaiting interest and that are accessible by check and credit
    card.  You could dispense with checking and savings accounts and run
    all of your finances through such an account.  Credit card charges
    automatically debit your account or take out a margin loan if your
    balance is low or negative.  They also make it convenient (though not
    necessarily cheap) to buy mutual funds and treasury securities through
    your account.
    
    Deep discount brokers have more "traditional" services.  They may pay
    interest on balances awaiting investment, but they may not pay on small
    balances.  They may have higher minimums to open accounts and they may
    actually have higher commissions on small trades.  To take money out,
    you may have to call them and ask them to write you a check or wire
    funds to your bank instead of just writing a check.  Most don't deal in
    mutual funds, some don't deal in treasury securities.  Brown & Co is a
    well known deep discount broker.  Brown requires that you have cash in
    your account before placing a buy order (or sufficient margin) 
    and securities in your account
    before placing a sell rather than giving you the 5-day settlement
    leeway that most other brokers give you.  I don't know how common this
    is among deep discount brokers.  It protects them against your placing
    an order and skipping town.
    
    There is no clear line between discount brokers and deep discount
    brokers.  Everybody has their own rates and their own policies.  I deal
    with Schwab because I don't spend enough in commissions for it to be
    worth the (small) hassle of dealing with a deep discount broker.  If
    commissions were the only issue, I'd probably still be with Merrill
    Lynch, but I regard lack of investment "advice" a feature I would pay
    extra for - it's great to get no advice and a discount too!

	Re. .24

	It does not matter (to the broker) if you plan to pay your balance
	in full or not. 

	Basically, when you buy stocks using a credit card, you are taking
	out a loan to buy stocks. This is considered a buy on margin, and
	all kinds of margin rules apply here. 

	Besides, the broker would have to pay anywhere from 0.5 to 4% 
	transaction fee on the purchase. Since you are talking about discount
	brokers, whose main claim in service is to save you that 1-3%
	commission (of the purchase price) compared to the full service
	brokers, this fee wouldn't go too well with them. 

	Finally, why would you want to buy a GM car anyway? :-) :-)

Another difference between "deep discount" and normal discount
brokers is that the latter are more polished (especially in customer
service over the phone) and more gentle than the former.  Eg, a Schwab
rep. will be more interested to take the time to explain something
to you than a Brown rep.

If you've never used a discount broker before, I would strongly 
recommend that you start out with a normal discount broker
like Schwab in order to learn the ropes; then decide later if
you want to try a cheaper broker.

jdr

    Does anybody out there know of a good low cost broker?  I am looking
    for a minimum commision of less than $40.  I have heard of a broker by
    the name of Marquett de Barry.  Does anybody know how to get a hold of
    them?  Any help would be appreciated.  I am currently using Olde.
    
    Thanks
    KK

See note 140.* in here for Discount brokers...  not sure if the one you're
looking for is listed in there.

Dan

    Thanks, I don't know how I missed it.
    
    KK

    Has anyone had experience with Olde (discount brokers) ? Any/all
    opinions are welcome.

I've used OLDE for a few years, not frequently, mostly brokering my DEC stock
account (I don't use Investor Services).  Have no complaints about them.  
They are responsive and do what I ask when I ask it.

Steve

  Re .-1

  I have not had the same luck...

  I am considering going elsewhere.

    Does anyone out there have all the info on discounters ?
    
    I just went through 140.* and didn't find one note with a critique of
    all good points/ bad points and commissions,etc. I know I was asking for a
    lot, that's what I wanted to compare.
    
    If you pick up the WSJ or Investor's Daily, they're full of ads saying
    that "they're the lowest ..." they all can't be right.
    
    I'm looking for someone who will answer the phone,execute my trade,and
    put the money in a money mkt account for the cheapest cost without
    buying 1000 shares at a time. I've been shying away from buying individual
    stock because the commissions are too high on a percentage basis.
    In general, I'd be looking to purchase round lots of 100. It seems a lot 
    of stocks trade between 20-60 so that would be 2k - 6k. Any opinions on
    which brokerage is better for different price ranges? (min/max $ e.g.)
    
    For example , I just sold 2000 of Telmex @ 2 1/2 with Fidelity and they got
    $125 for the trade. I thought that was outrageous. $125 to buy,$125 to
    sell = $250 on $5000 worth of stock = 5 % of the price for Fidelity.
    (I held on for a year or so, no movement so I'm cleaning house.)
    

    
    I did some research and went with Brown & Company.  Good service,
    local office to me (Boston MA) so I get paperwork quickly, and a good
    real-time quote service.
    
    Stock commissions are $25 + 3 cents/share (NYSE) or 2 cents/share
    (AMEX, OTC).  Paying a fixed price per share seems to be generally
    cheaper, except for very low-priced stocks.  Even then, 2000 shares 
    is 25+40=$65, regardless of share price.
    
    $10K account minimum, and they require immediate settlements (no 5-day
    period to send in money after a purchase).

A second for Waterhouse.  $35 min commission, which beats the pants off 
Fidelity.  Also you get good perks (s&p reports).  No minimum account balance,
and you can buy securities, then send in the money.

John Piekos

    
    Look into Aufhauser in N.Y.C.  Their rates are not only the lowest
    around (equal to Brown for that particular trade), but their terms
    are better; no 10K initial, fewer margin and option restrictions,
    and no 'hidden costs' that I've run into.  And they're actually
    courteous on the phone and execute orders efficiently.  What more
    could you ask for?
    
    And their monthly reports are by far the *clearest* that I've seen.
    Some of these firms seem to intentionally confuse you with the reports;
    English please!!!

    
    re -.1:  Aufhauser's # is: 800-368-3668
    

Fidelity Rates (if you use the Touch Tone Trader, then take another 10% off)
Could someone provide a chart like this for other brokerages mentioned?
    
    
Transaction amount		Commision Rate*
----------------------------------------------
0 - 2,500			 29.95 + 1.7%
2,501 - 6000			 55.50 + .66%
6,001 - 22,000			 75.50 + .34%
22,001 - 50,000			 99.50 + .22%
50,001 - 500,000		154.50 + .11%
500,000 + 			254.50 + .09%

* Rates Subject to change without notice.

I too use fidelity - but i have to admit, when i got into this, i didn't spend
a lot of time shopping around, mostly because i was not familiar with all the
nomenclature.  i did check a few of the "big boys" on the block: fidelity,
schwab, and maybe one other.  i picked fidelity because of the touch-tone
trader thing:  800 # gets me to my account, i can get quotes instantly, place
orders, and find out transaction status... from any phone in the country.
i _like_ this feature a lot.  do other brokerage houses offer this?

    
    re: .40 
    
    That's easy for Brown & Company, and many other 'deep discount'
    brokers:
    
    For Brown, $25 + 0.03/share, NYSE stocks
               $25 + 0.02/share, AMEX and OTC stocks
    
    Also worth mentioning that they treat multiple orders executed on the
    same day on the same side for the same security as 1 trade; i.e. if you
    sell 100 shares DEC in the morning, and 100 shares DEC in the
    afternoon, they'll charge $25+$6=$31, rather than as 2 x ($25+$3).

    re: .41
    
    Brown & Company has 800 lines for order placement, quotes, account
    status, etc. as well.  However (like Fidelity) only certain types of
    orders can be placed with the electronic system.

    do you have a number for Brown and Co??
    thanks
    
    Carlos
    

    One of the things I really like about Waterhouse is they have the
    lowest minimum around and since I'm usually trading in low volumes,
    I almost always come out paying the minimum ($35 as compared to $48,
    etc for many other discounters). Also, if you own some of their stock,
    there are other discounts (and btw, if you had owned some of their
    stock for the last couple of years, it might have been the only
    investment you needed). They also provide quotes, fee less mutual
    funds, etc. They're about as close to a full service broker as I
    ever want to get.

    Brown & Company, 800-225-6707 (that's the trading line, but I assume
    they can forward you to the correct place).
    

    thanks
    

    
    re: -.3 (?):  35$ minimum
    
        that's not the lowest around.  Aufhauser, Brown, and probably many
    	others use $25 + 2�/share (or 3�/share, depending on the exchange).
    

    Aufhauser also claims to pay YOU interest received from short sales,
    which will further increase profits in the next bear market.
    (The one that starts next week :-)
    
      John

**         <<< NYOSS1::DISK$LIB:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MARKET_INVESTING.NOTE;1 >>>
**                             -< Market Investing >-
**==============================================================================
==
**Note 548.12                   First time investing                      12 of
19
**VMSDEV::HALLYB "Fish have no concept of fire"  27 lines  31-AUG-1993
20:00:02.24
**            -< EWT:  ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding >-
**------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
**>              -< is this note another indicator of a market top? >-
**
**    "...In a reflection of the public acceptance of the idea of "investing"
**    (as opposed to saving), some banks are now offering customers the
**    option of buying and selling stock and bond mutual funds at their
**    \automatic teller machines/.  This is the modern version of the
**    "investment wise" elevator operators and shoeshine boys of the late
**    1920s.  The yield on the Dow Jones Transports recently fell to a new
**    record low of 1.18%.  Given the dire straits of the industry, the yield
**    could easily fall to zero.  Yet, the stocks are near all-time highs,
**    reflecting not merely euphoria, but a Bhudda-like state of
**    immeasurable complacency that comes (temporarily) from ignoring reality.
**    A new book is out, which is endorsed by three authors, four CEOs, five
**    corporate presidents, three economists/investment planners, one Group
**    Chairman and a professor.  The title, \The Great Boom Ahead/, would
**    have been well timed in 1982.  1993 is another question.  The author
**    states flatly, "We are going to scream out of this recession."  That is
**    probably an accurate statement.  "
**
**    -- Robert Prechter, _The Elliott Wave Theorist_, 8/27/93 P.O. Box 1618,
**    Gainseville, GA 30503 USA, 1-404-536-0309.  Reprinted with permission.
**
**    This issue features a picture of a ringing bell on page 1.  First time
**    I've seen that alert in this newsletter.  Note Prechter's decade-old
**    projection of DOW 3686 is within spitting distance.
**
**      John


-Bear market this week...I thought it was the 31st of August!  ;-)

/michael (not a market timer)

    You got it right, I just didn't want everybody to think I was looking
    at the tape and claiming today's ~3620 was down from last week.  I'll
    try to be less obliging in the future.
    
    For the record, the bear market actually began on 26-Aug at DOW 3663.80
    and will continue until most "long-term" investors get disgusted with
    their high hopes of holding on "for the long run".  The market always
    fools the majority and right now the majority are solidly self-declared
    long-term investors.
    
      John

Oh it's better than I thought

CGM Capital Development Fund

JAN  1 : $27.43
AUG 26 : $30.57
SEP 13  :$33.55

GAIN $2.98 or 10.86% of the total gain for the year (22.31%).

Glad I have a quality managed fund.

Funny thing I read just the other day.  With all the billions of dollars flowing
into mutual funds there are acutally less people making the buy and sell
decsions (one fund manager representing thousands of individual investors),
therefore the rules of the game has changed slightly and the market will 
probally react differently than historical analysis predicts.

this could be fun!

/michael

    
    When you place an order through a dis broker can you also put a 
    stop loss and sell request for that order at the time of the order?
    
    steve 

    Sure.  Might depend on the broker, though.  But it's never been a 
    problem with the ones that I've delt with.  Day orders, good till
    cancel, or whatever your fancy.

Waterhouse now offers touch-tone trading.  you save 10% for phone transactions.
Just got the literature in the mail yesturday.

    Re .55
    
    Has Waterhouse relented and do you get Check access to your Money Funds
    yet.  They were "planning" this last year (as in a year ago).
    
    Bill
    

re     <<< Note 140.56 by STAR::PARKE "True Engineers Combat Obfuscation" >>>
                         -< Can you use checks yet ? >-

>    Re .55
>    
>    Has Waterhouse relented and do you get Check access to your Money Funds
>    yet.  They were "planning" this last year (as in a year ago).

nope, no checks to the best of my knowledge.

	Since I will be out of the country for a long time, I wanted to
	put stop loss orders and limit sell orders on most of my holdings. 

	I would have expected that if a stop loss and a limit order exist
	for the same underlying entity then they should be co-related in
	that if a stop loss order is executed then the corresponding sale 
	order should be automatically cancelled and vice versa. My broker, 
	Waterhouse, says that they can not do that. 

	Is this true with other brokers also?

	Also, Waterhouse does not accept stop loss orders on NASDAQ stocks
	(although I have heard that others, like National Discount does). 
	Is there a recommended options strategy for this so that my investment
	has limited downside risk?

    
    Brown & Company requires that you specific a sale as long or short.
    Thus if I own 100 shares XYZ they will allow me to place the following
    pair of orders:
    
    	sell long 100 shares XYZ at a stop of $n
        sell long 100 shares XYZ at a limit of $n
    
    Buying options as insurance can get expensive, but it is relatively
    simple.  To insure against a drop below $n buy a Put with a strike
    price of $n...

    limit order:
    	A customer's order with instructions to buy a specified security
    below a certain price or sell a specified security above a certain
    price. (Syn. or-better order)
    	Minimum price for sell orders, maximum for buy orders.	
    Sometimes limit orders are not executed, even if the limit price is
    met. There are two possible explanations for this:
    	1. Stock ahead. [FIFO in the specialist's book]
    	2. Plus tick needed. Limit orders to sell short may be executed
    only on a plus-tick or zero-plus tick.
    
    stop order:
    	An order which becomes a market order when the market price of the
    security reaches or exceeds the specific price stated in the stop
    order. (Also know as a Stop Loss Order)
    	Buy orders entered above the market, sell orders entered below.
    	Not currently acceptable OTC.
    	There is no guarantee that the executed price will be as favorable
    as the stop price [ a specialist executes the stop order ]. In this
    way, a stop order differs from a limit order, which does guarantee
    execution at the limit price or better.
    
    
    

    re: .60
    
    Yes, we understand the definitions (there is also a 'stop limit'
    order.)
    
    If one buys 100 shares XYZ at 50, one might want to take a profit if
    the stock reaches 60, or cut ones loss if the stock falls to 45.  Thus
    one wants to enter two sell orders, a stop at 45 and a limit at 60,
    with the first order that executes cancelling the second outstanding
    order.

    Looking for names/experiences with Discount broker with offices in New
    Hampshire for a friend.  He holds Lotus stock options that he wants to
    exercise, but will get nailed with Mass. capital gains tax (12%?) if he
    executes the buy/sell through the company in Mass.  As a N.H. resident,
    he could make the buy in Mass., take delivery of certificates and sell
    them in NH.  We figure he'll save @ $2K in Mass. taxes this way.
    
    I only found a listing for Olde Discount Brokers in Nashua, and I'm not
    even sure they actually have an office there.
    
    Couldn't find Schwab, Fidelity, Jack White, etc...
    
    Help.
    
    Thanks!

>     Looking for names/experiences with Discount broker with offices in New
>     Hampshire for a friend.  He holds Lotus stock options that he wants to
>     exercise, but will get nailed with Mass. capital gains tax (12%?) if he
>     executes the buy/sell through the company in Mass.  As a N.H. resident,
>     he could make the buy in Mass., take delivery of certificates and sell
>     them in NH.  We figure he'll save @ $2K in Mass. taxes this way.

	I believe your friend is mis-informed.  As a NH resident he will
	not pay (nor be able to deduct a loss on) MA taxes.  This is
	regardless of where the brokers office is located, or if your
	friend works in MA.

	If your friend works in MA (and lives in NH) the only tax consequence
	on MA taxes is that the extra income that is not taxable on MA taxes
	will result in an exemption ratio change (which is not overly
	significant).

ps: I'm another one of those fools who live in NH *but* work in MA (paying
    both high property taxes *and* income taxes)

    
    
    	Hi Jack...I think the response in .63 is correct.  There is a
    	Schwab office in Manchester, on Elm Street, right downtown.  
    	Diane

    
    
    I seen ads for JB Oxford & Company on CNBC  ... THey seem to have the
    BEST rates around ... anybody have lower ?
    
    $20.00 per trade plus $3.00 postage/handling for ALL NYSE/NASDAQ trades
    under 2000 shares.  Anything over 2000 shares add .01/share.
    
    Can anybody comment on them ?
    
    They are a member SIPC and NASD ... Is this important ?
    
    

    Ceresonline is $18 per trade. No fees, any number of shares. They will
    also be starting an online trading program next month.
    
    1-800-628-6100
    
    or http://www.ceresonline.com
    
    This is from Pg MW5 of this weeks Barron's. Don't know anything about
    the company execpt what's on their web page.
    
    Ray
                                                          

    
    
    re .-1
    
    How do these places make money on a $18 transaction ???

    Etrade is changing to $14.95 per trade up to 5000 shares in March.

.67>  How do these places make money on a $18 transaction ???
    
    Computerized trading and back-room operations really have improved
    efficiency over the past decade. Increased volume has helped, too.
    
      John

    If you do not ask too much (customer service, quick execution, ect) 
    almost any one is OK.  I used to use Waterhouse and NDB.  I recent 
    placed a buy and sell orders of same stock a few times almost at the 
    same time (using two phones). Each time I got a better price from 
    Waterhouse.
    
    When I added up the courteous service with that experiment, I concluded
    the few extra dollars they charge was worth it and moved 100% of my 
    business to Waterhouse.
    
    Dan

Are you talking about Waterhouse Securities, or Price-Waterhouse?

I am looking for a discount online broker to execute small trades,
both in dollars number of shares.  Any suggestions?

> Are you talking about Waterhouse Securities, or Price-Waterhouse?

	Waterhouse Securities, Inc.

> I am looking for a discount online broker to execute small trades,
> both in dollars number of shares.  Any suggestions?

	Waterhouse Securities, Inc.

	See the following topic for more info, especially the most recent
	replies:

   773  NETRIX::michaud       3-OCT-1994    21  Waterhouse Securities, Inc.