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Conference nyoss1::market_investing

Title:Market Investing
Moderator:2155::michaud
Created:Thu Jan 23 1992
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1060
Total number of notes:10477

89.0. "401k/IRA funds when taxpayer dies" by STAR::VALES () Mon Mar 02 1992 16:32

    Hello,
    
    I have a question concerning U.S. tax liability for the following 
    investment situation.
    
    The holder of a 401K and IRA account dies before they receive any funds
    from the account. Upon the death of the taxpayer the proceeds of the
    funds gets added to the deceased persons estate. 
    
    The deceased person has to have an income tax filed for the period
    of the tax year they where alive. Since the 401K and IRA distributions 
    were not made while the taxpayer was alive they do not have to be
    included on the tax form being prepared for the deceased person.
    
    Does a federal tax form have to be filed for the estate? This tax form
    would cover the period of time from the dispursement to the end of the
    tax year. Since the dispursement is substantial the funds will remain
    in the estate account collecting interest until the estate is settled.
    
    Does the estate have to file a federal and state (Ma.) income tax for
    any monies that collect interest while in the estate, or does the 
    estate tax take care of that.
    
    I did read that when a heir receives IRA/401k distributions they have
    to pay tax that that the owner of the fund had deferred.
    
    Any comments are appreciated.
    
    Bill
    
    
    
    
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89.1some basicsSOLVIT::CORZINEsearching for the right questionsTue Mar 10 1992 11:03103
    I hoped someone else would take a swing at this.  But no one has so
    I'll start it.  All disclaimers apply (it's been four years and my
    memory...)
    
>   The holder of a 401K and IRA account dies before they receive any funds
>   from the account. Upon the death of the taxpayer the proceeds of the
>   funds gets added to the deceased persons estate. 
    
>   The deceased person has to have an income tax filed for the period
>   of the tax year they where alive. Since the 401K and IRA distributions 
>   were not made while the taxpayer was alive they do not have to be
>   included on the tax form being prepared for the deceased person.
    
>   Does a federal tax form have to be filed for the estate? This tax form
>   would cover the period of time from the dispursement to the end of the
>   tax year. Since the dispursement is substantial the funds will remain
>   in the estate account collecting interest until the estate is settled.
    
    A short answer is yes, and then some.
    
    The fiduciary (called Executor, Executrix, Personal Representative, or
    whatever according to the state law) appointed by the Probate Court is
    responsible for filing the deceased person's final tax return, which
    covers all income up to the Date of Death.  A separate Federal return
    is filed each year by the fiduciary for the Estate of {deceased's name}
    for the period beginning with the date of death and continuing until
    the assets are distributed from the Estate--which is often years. 
    Taxes are paid out of the Estate funds/income.  
    
    Once the Estate has filed its final return, subsequent income is
    reportable by the heirs, whether or not they have actually received the
    assets (a Trust company will protect itself by holding back a 'small'
    portion of an Estate after the legal closing for maybe another year
    until all audits are done and the dust firmly settled).

>   Does the estate have to file a federal and state (Ma.) income tax for 
>   any monies that collect interest while in the estate, or does the 
>   estate tax take care of that.
    
    Don't know details of Mass. but generally for income tax purposes,
    states seem to follow the feds, if a state income tax is required of
    the living person, assume it's required of the Estate.
    
    The theory is that 'trusts' and 'estates' are persons to the law, you
    and I are called 'natural' persons (I think) when the distinction is
    important.  When you die, your remaining stuff belongs to your Estate,
    which more or less is created automatically and exists as long as
    needed.  You keep stuff out of your Estate by assigning ownership to
    another person (natural, or Trust) while you are living, subject to the
    Gift tax.
    
    Don't confuse Estate tax and Income Tax.  The feds don't tax your
    wealth, only the income you derive from it or the gain realized when
    you exchange it.  States are a different matter, real estate value is
    routinely taxed, and some states have taxes on other tangible property
    (Mass has one on cars, in most towns).
    
    The Federal Estate tax is on wealth itself, not just dividend and
    interest income.  On the other hand, any Estate of net worth less than
    $600,000 is not subject to Federal Estate tax.  But everything above
    that is clipped for around 33%.  This is why estate planners make
    money (helping smart money avoid this tax).  
    
    States differ on their approach to estates.  Smart ones like Florida
    encourage people to move there for retirement with their $$s by not
    having a 'death tax'.  Massachusetts offers its citizens an incentive
    to move away.
    
    People get pretty indignant about the Estate tax.  I think that a
    little self-serving for the following reason.  The biggest loophole in
    the federal tax code is one that leaves completely untaxed all capital
    gains unrealized by the decedent.  More simply, when you die, all of
    your stuff will be taxed based on its value on the day you died.
    Period.  Stocks, bonds, not to mention the house you owned and lived in
    for 40 years (with its cost basis adjusted for additions and earlier
    deferred capital gains) if sold would show capital gains/losses that,
    in theory should be taxable income to the Estate or heirs.  Nope,
    vanishes--never to be taxed.  The house passes with a new cost basis of
    it's market value on the date of death, same for all assets.
    
    This isn't generosity on the part of our gummint.  They'd have a
    hell-of-a time calculating/arguing cost basis based on the chaos of
    records and lifetime of accumulated stuff.  So think of the Estate tax
    as the gummint's way of simply and economically capturing it's (our)
    share of that capital gain income.  As a taxpayer, I approve.  Of
    course, if you're not really comfortable with accounting, this argument
    may not make you feel any better.
    
>   I did read that when a heir receives IRA/401k distributions they have
>   to pay tax that that the owner of the fund had deferred.
    
    Interesting.  Seems inconsistent with the above.  It could be true,
    given that such IRAs are rather recent and someone probably has the
    records.  The IRS in it's files of your tax returns, for one.
    
    The only thing I'm really sure of is that this whole business is
    outrageously complex.  The best advice is--if your stuff looks like its
    going to be worth much more than $600,000 (and I think you should count
    half of jointly held assets), hire professional help.  Otherwise,
    concentrate on earning and saving that first mil (the hardest one, they
    tell me).
    
    gordie
89.233% is the LOW end...SSDEVO::RMCLEANTue Mar 10 1992 17:479
>>    The Federal Estate tax is on wealth itself, not just dividend and
>>    interest income.  On the other hand, any Estate of net worth less than
>>    $600,000 is not subject to Federal Estate tax.  But everything above
>>    that is clipped for around 33%.  This is why estate planners make
>>    money (helping smart money avoid this tax).  


 Careful... Large estates are MUCH MUCH larger than 33%!  I think you will find
that 33% is about where they start (for you rich people ;-.])
89.3MR4DEC::GREENTue Mar 10 1992 22:013
    
    estate tax rates reach 55% quickly after the 600,000 exemption.