Conference noted::sf

    Taped it but haven't gotten around to it yet.
    
    Is it in the "SF" genre?
    
    Dave
    
    PS - It's a UPN show, not FOX.

    Yes, it was UPN, my mistake.
    
    I considered it Science Fiction cause it was so extreme.  It felt like he
    entered the "twilight zone"
    
    June

    I also enjoyed it very much.  I like the Twilight Zone analogy.  It is
    going to turn into a Twilight Zone meets The Fugitive.  Not a bad
    combination!
    
    NAZZ

    
    	Don't tell me, let me guess? What would be a really good theme
    	music for this show hhmm a Beatle's song by chance ??
    
    						Mike N.

After watching the first two episodes I fell that this show is
a 90's version of the Prisoner.  

I'm just waiting for someone to refer to him as number 6.



I am not a number, I am a free Man.

    Another excellent episode last night.  The boy was very convincing to
    me, and it was nice to see the man who played his father have a role
    that allowed him to play something other than a mafia hit man!
    
    Couple of questions, though, after the FF
    
    
    1. Why didn't the army have that guy house surrounded when Tom was able
    to escape by jumping out the back window?
    
    2. Would you have come up out of that hiding place after only an hour?
    
    3. Where was everybody at the end?
    
    NAZZ


1) Since the bullets seemed to pass through the house without problem, they
   probably didn't want to chance being hit by richocets or pass-thrus.

2) Nope

3) Heading for erasure?

More questions:

4) Are the soldiers that were gunned down going to be erased or "killed in the
   tragic crash of the air transport (could get rid of the town people as well)."

5) Even more significant is that "They" don't have total control of everything
   since the Georgia State Police (and the local Sheriff) arrived (although we
   can't be sure since we didn't know what was the fate of Derek and his
   father).  So how far does "Their" control reach?

6) Since the Humvee was back in the US, was Tom Veil's Hidden Agenda taken in
   US (instead of outside of the US as I initially assumed)?  If so, they 
   could very explain that they are so interested in Veil.

>    Another excellent episode last night.  

I have to disagree.
This series, after merely three episodes, has "dog" written all over it.
Clever basic premise, VERY badly executed.

Your questions get to the heart of the plot matters.
Reminiscent of Indianna Jones and the submarine ride, when Tom
wants to get somewhere, he just goes.
He jumps out the window, he walks off to a railroad track, he hides
in a hole that nobody finds.
He sneaks up on a paranoid survivalist sleeping with a shotgun,
in the guy's own house, and gets the drop on him?
The attackers shoot up the house and don't shoot to floor level?
They let their quarry sneak out the back?
They don't just blow the place up in a nicely controlled "gas leak?"

I said this about The X-Files, which seems to have recovered somewhat,
but I believe the basic objection remains:
Shows built a conspiracy theories have a built-in dead-end.
Either the conspiracy is exposed, and the premise of the show is done,
or the conspiracy is NOT exposed, and the whole idea gets boring.
The show can recover if there are other attractive features: plot, writing,
acting, and new ideas.  "The Prisoner" is about the only success
in this area that I can think of.

- tom]

    Re .8:
    
    > They let their quarry sneak out the back?
    
    Especially since he has done that EVERY episode so far.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.

My problem is not:

1) The ***SECRET** **EVIL** GOVERNMENT AGENCY* (SEGA) which no one knows about,
   yet which has total control over all levels (Federal, State, County, etc) of
   authority so it can order police around, etc,

2) The casual way the above agency totally destroys anything in it's path,
   but every single person in the agency takes the deaths and other illegal
   acts totally for granted and never objects in the slightest way,

3) The absolute control they have over every system in the country, including
   commercial systems which are jealous of preserving their privacy (such as
   credit card companies), and which would cooperate with a government agency
   only under direct court order,

4) The fact that any agency with this level of power wouldn't care less about
   some stupid photograph, since they could manufacture and produce their own
   evidence denying any evidence he had,

5) Or the fact that the photographer was not a threat to them, because he 
   honestly didn't know that he had anything incriminating until they started
   messing with his life!

(See below for real-life examples of these things).

Nope, I don't care about any of those things :^).  My problem with this show
is the fact that the SEGA is able to make everyone, including his closest 
family and friends, convincingly act as if they don't know him.  I don't know
about you, but if some person in a suit came up to me, flashed a badge I had
never seen before, and ordered me to act as if I didn't know my wife or my
children, I would tell them where to put it.  Or if I was a waiter in a
restaurant and this same person ordered me to clear a table, put a new one
in it's place and put a new couple there with a meal that was half-way
finished, all in less than 1 minute (as happened in the pilot), I think I 
would spend more time arguing and checking with the management than it would
take for the guy to come back from the bathroom.

Unless, of course, all of this was set up in advance, and the SEGA has the
power to make the guy need to go to the bathroom when the plan is ready to
be put into effect.  Ahh, remote control of bodily functions!  Hey, I knew
the government was doing some odd-ball research, but this is a new one... :-)

Sorry, but when the wife denied knowing him I walked out.  I just don't buy it.

-- Ken Moreau

Notes on above points:

1) The SEGA existing and having total control over everything:  Doesn't the
   BATF and/or the FBI wish it had this power?  Yet their slightest moves
   are seized upon by their political opponents (the left wing in the 60's
   and the right wing in the 90's) and publicized like crazy...

2) The way all members of the SEGA accept illegal acts: Consider the failed
   Russian coup attempt, where the hard-liners had the Kremlin surrounded by
   tanks.  My understanding of one of the reasons for the failure of the coup
   was that the lieutenants and captains who were commanding the tanks refused
   to fire on the crowd, as they were ordered to by the coup leaders.  The
   grunts refused to carry out murder against innocent people as their agency
   demanded.  And yet no one in the SEGA has any problem doing so...

3) The cancelling of things like credit cards: Ok, you are the head of 
   Citibank or MasterCard or Visa, and you are ordered by some guy in a suit
   who shows you some badge you have never seen to go into your system and
   wipe out some records.  Do you just meekly go along with this, or do you
   demand some kind of court order or other documentation, which you can
   then use as defense in court when the person sues you?  And do you then
   never mention any word of this to anyone, or do you call up your favorite
   reporter and tell them (maybe off the record) about this weird order that
   you just got from the Feds?

4) The seriousness of a single photograph: Come on, there are people still
   today who don't believe that Nixon had anything to do with the Watergate
   burglary or cover-up, and we have his own voice on hours of tape!  No single
   section of a single photograph is that much of a threat to anyone, since
   the SEGA can easily manufacture evidence which denies his (ever seen what
   a really good artist can do with Corel Photo Editor?), and then you have
   conflicting evidence on both sides with no one being able to prove it.
   Combine manufactured evidence with the big lie (ie, Iran-Contra) and the
   SEGA is essentially invulnerable.

   But, you say, the point of the SEGA is that it doesn't want any publicity
   at all!  Ok, then let me point out that all of their actions (the erasure
   of his credit cards, the changing of the table at the restaurant, the
   pressure on all of his friends and family to deny him, the shoot-out at
   the house) is involving **LOTS** of people in the SEGA.  You don't think
   these actions will ever find their way to some reporter somewhere?

5) The guy's being a threat: Any SEGA with this level of resources could more 
   easily have burgled the guys house and stolen the negatives, or even 
   torched the place and burned the negative.  Or even (gasp) done nothing and
   let the guy throw the negative into a shoe-box and forget it...

re .10
    
>3) The cancelling of things like credit cards: Ok, you are the head of 
>   Citibank or MasterCard or Visa, and you are ordered by some guy in a suit
>   who shows you some badge you have never seen to go into your system and
>   wipe out some records.  Do you just meekly go along with this, or do you
>   demand some kind of court order or other documentation, which you can
>   then use as defense in court when the person sues you?
    
    If they sue, you just apologise humbly and blame it on a computer error.
    (-:

>  <<< Note 1283.10 by ODIXIE::MOREAU "Ken Moreau;Technical Support;Florida" >>>
>                 -< Yes, I know it's just at TV show, but... >-
>
>My problem is not:
>
>1) The ***SECRET** **EVIL** GOVERNMENT AGENCY* (SEGA) which no one knows about,
>   yet which has total control over all levels (Federal, State, County, etc) of
>   authority so it can order police around, etc,
>....
>Nope, I don't care about any of those things :^).  My problem with this show
>is the fact that the SEGA is able to make everyone, including his closest 
>family and friends, convincingly act as if they don't know him.  ...
>Or if I was a waiter in a
>restaurant and this same person ordered me to clear a table, put a new one
>in it's place and put a new couple there with a meal that was half-way
>finished, all in less than 1 minute (as happened in the pilot), I think I 
>would spend more time arguing and checking with the management than it would
>take for the guy to come back from the bathroom.
>...
>Sorry, but when the wife denied knowing him I walked out.  I just don't buy it.

The SEGA aspect is actually the "interesting basic concept" that 
I gave the show credit for in my first reply.
The premise is that they have certain elements of technology
to execute "erasures."  
I could suspend my disbelief about such technology if it were consistently
and realistically(?) applied.
If the guy went away for a week-long business trip and nobody knew him when
he returned, hey, I could suspend disbelief for that.
But not for the time it takes for a bathroom trip when the target 
is your spouse.

The restaurant example is well-said.  No other patrons would stand up
and eventually blow the gag, even if (say) they were briefed that this 
was a practical joke, a la Candid Camera?

And to gun down an entire plattoon of soldiers to keep them quiet?
The man with the cigar was known to the sargeant (lieutenant?).
Didn't the guys BEHIND the guns have any qualms that they might be next 
if they continue to follow Mr. Cigar?

But to defend the show further....
The problem with the picture being public might be that someone ELSE
than Tom might know what it means.  There was a movie several years ago
about an apparently mad arsonist, blowing up lots of public places.
The plot twist was that he was a terrorist who was out to destroy
all the existing prints of some movie in which he was on film in a street
scene.  His goal was to "erase" every copy of the movie so that no
Interpol guy (or the equivalent) would ever see him and be able to trace
that he had been in some given city on some given date, and be able to pick
up his trail again.  (I'm elaborating a bit here.)

So somebody knows what's in the picture.
The SEGA needs the negatives to totally suppress the evidence.
Tom doesn't need to know - he's just a poor innocent pawn.

But enough of the defense - the show is being badly executed.
It makes no sense as currently configured, it has bad plotting, bad writing, 
and mediocre acting.  It won't last.

- tom]

First, I wouldn't be watching this at all except it's on right after 
ST: Voyager, and second, I probably won't again anyway....

Last night was as dumb as the first few.
The trick withthe 8 year old girl and the casual way she participated in
the kidnapping was unbelievable.  It was also much harder than it needed to be.
Why not just hail his cab and have him DRIVE them where they wanted him to go?

And the cliche of "solve this problem or be killed" with the bad guys....
"The director does not tolerate failure..."
Who's the director, Ernst Blofeld?

This show has no credibility left.

- tom]

    Hey Tom, you may be gaining a convert!
    
    I was really disappointed with last night's show.  My reasons after
    the formfeed:
    
    
    1) The girl on the bike bit was ridiculous.  No one else on the street
    came out to help her????  I completely agree with having his cab
    destination be where he gets grabbed.  No fuss, no mess, believable,
    just not as cute.
    
    2) The mad scientist was too young to be a truly mad scientist.  I just
    kept picturing him as Tom Cruise's friend in "Risky Business."
    
    3) THEY LET HIM KEEP HIS WATCH WITHOUT CHECKING IT OUT?!?!?!?!?
    
    4) No security with the mad doc?
    
    I have quickly moved from a supporter of this show to being on the
    fence.  The next two episodes will make it or break it for me.
    
    NAZZ