Conference noted::sf

    
    I've always held the notion that :
    
    a.) given the theoretical size of the universe ( ie: like, *real* big )
    there must be some life somewhere that has the capability of star
    travel.
    
    b.) they either can't be bothered with our insignificant little race,
    or give the size of the universe ( see above ) - none of them have come
    out our way yet.
    
    	I'd like to believe we've been 'visited', but I'd need some fairly
    hard evidence before someone convinced me ( mutilated cows doesn't
    quite do it :-) ).
    
    	Of course, none of the above stops me from enjoying 'The X-files',
    or anything else dealing with the subject matter :-).
    
    						- Jim
    

    Geez!  We've been worth addressing only for about 12,000 years.
    How often do you expect probes to come by, anyhow?
    
    						Ann B.

    Continuing in the vein of .2, we've only been able to hold a reliable
    record of a visit for about 4000, and you have to be pretty generous
    with the term "reliable" for a lot of times and places within that
    range, unless you suppose the aliens are founding whole civilizations 
    a la Von Daniken.  You don't even need to be particularly careful about
    contamination the primitives, just reasonably indifferent.
    
        "*Sigh* I hate survey work.  Nothing ever changes.  Bimanual bipeds,
         still in the late stone age.  No potential for trade, military
         alliance, indoctrination, exdoctrination, eduction, alterity, 
         troning, or spurgement.  Is that a sapient sacrifice they're 
         preparing to offer us?  I hate that.  Let's lift."
    
    And the city's culture is profoundly affected, only no one wrote it
    down because no one can write, and the city in question was razed three
    generations later, to be followed by the entire language group.
    
    Earl Wajenberg

    It could be that this is just an intermediate reality for TRULY
    intelligent species, and that they evolve past this stage in just a few
    millenia.
    
    We're just a rare "notch species", too intelligent not to know we're
    alone and too limited to realize our entire reality is a box of 
    our own device.
    
    Visiting this reality would be about as exciting for the Others as for us
    visiting a primordial swamp where slime critters are starting to
    wiggle.      
    
    

    
    An interesting coincidence that this subject should come up at about
    the same time as the release of "Rama Revealed" - the last few pages
    feature a similar discussion.  This isn't really a "spoiler", but in
    the interests of noting etiquette, if you don't want to know anything
    about the book until you've read it, don't look...
    
    The Eagle takes Nicole to the Node's "knowledge module" to spend her
    last few hours.  Among other things, he shows her an animation/simulation
    of the development of intelligence in our galaxy.  As the galaxy
    evolves and stabilizes, intelligent species pop up more or less at
    random, some of them developing space travel and spreading into
    neighboring stellar regions.  They all die out eventually.  Some of the
    more successful spacefarers do occasionally encounter other intelligent
    species, but for the most part it's a relatively rare event.  The
    description of this simulation reminded me a bit of some two
    dimensional cellular automata (e.g., Horton's Life), where if you set
    the growth parameters right and initialize the space of cells sparsely
    enough, complexes of active cells wax and wane without ever (or only
    rarely) impinging on one another.  
    
    len.
    

    Yeah, if the life-time term in the famous equation is small, then
    we might be alone now.
    
    But that doesn't work if civilizations produce self-reproducing
    machines, as they would have their own, probably much longer
    life-span.  Anyone know who came up with the idea, by the way?
    
    		-John Bishop

Re .0 & .6:
    
By the way, this whole question goes by the name of the Fermi Paradox, since 
it was physicist Enrico Fermi who, when asked about ETs, retorted pithily, 
"Where are they?"

It seems to me that the von Neumann machines just become one more set of 
players in the galactic game, and may not affect the list of five standard 
answers you gave.  E.g.:

    1	Only Earth has {life, intelligent life, space-faring life}
    1'  Only Earth can build von Neumann probes (or will soon).

    2	It's just too far between life-bearing planets
    2'  It's too far for von Neumann probes, too.  Nothing can last long
	enough to be operable by the time it reaches the next star, or
	reach the next star fast enough tostill be operable when it gets 
	there.

    3	Intelligent life kills itsself off too fast
    3'	Intelligent life finds von Neumann machines a handy source of
	hi-tech on the hoof, harvests them, and thus slows, halts, or (if 
	they're short-sighted) reverses the expansion of the von Neumann 
	sphere.  (Obviously we're outside any such sphere.)
    	or
    	Von Neumann machines do evolve, as suggested, and thus turn into
    	an ecology, compelte with vN prey and vN predators.  These
    	ecologies extinguish themselves or at least stablize and stop
    	expanding.

    4	We're not ready/on a reservation/too disgusting
    4'  The von Neumann machines think we're not ready, etc.  One version 
	combining "not ready" and "too disgusting" could be that von Neumann 
	machines are not about to toast their dainty little circuits down here
	at the bottom of this sea of molten nitrogen we had the poor taste to
	evolve in, and are patiently waiting for us on Charon, whiling away 
	the decades in the traditional ET pastime of figuring out our culture
	from our TV and radio broadcasts.

    5 	They're here but {are secret/not dealing with us/using
    	us for experiments/food}
    5'	Ditto.  These could all work with von Neumann machines, too, save
	that it's a bit unlikely they'd feed on us.  Hey, maybe flying
	saucers *are* von Neumann machines, and the infamous "Greys" are
	the probes' probes, developed from tissue from abducted humans; the 
	cattle mutilations are part of a project to develop Grey cows...

My point is that the limitations imagined for traditional ETs can also be 
imagined as applying to ET von Neumann machines.

Earl Wajenberg

I think this breaks down into 2 basic parts based on one question.

Is faster than light travel possible?

1. Yes.

   This breaks down to a few possibilities;
    
   A. We are alone
   B. We are undiscovered being in the spiral arm of the galaxy
   C. We are discovered but not contacted for some reason.


2. No

  This argues for the we are too far from the nearest other spacefaring
civilization for contact. Perhaps to travel here is too far.

The next question is:

Is contact with other civilizations a good idea?

Our own history suggests that this is a bad idea as the superior 
civilization tends to exploit the more backward one.  Therfore some
civilizations might hide and not venture out.

    re .8
    
    In the case of possibility 2 (FTL travel not possible), this brings up
    an interesting question of whether destructive exploitation by a
    superior civilization is possible across a sufficient distance/time
    barrier.  (Destructive interaction may still be possible...)
    
    /Butch

This and many other discussions have assumed that we could
be contacted by any number of other space faring races.
However what if we are in the sphere of influence of a
particular race which does not allow others into the
neighborhood?  Then only one race would be avoiding and
possibly watching us.

re .9 explotation might come in the form of the introduction
of technology in exchange for land rights without giving
the basic technology.  Ie I will sell you a power plant
that is self contained for say, Maine.

Harry

    re .10
    
    That exploitation scenario presumes that the aliens can take advantage
    of the land rights, which argues for physical presence of the aliens
    and practical (if not FTL) space travel capability.  Interesting
    possibilities...
    
    Economic advantage for the home culture doesn't seem like a good
    motivator.  What are the potential trade goods a superior culture would
    want to rook us of, that they couldn't build at home with enough
    energy?  (Of course, if they have fantastically efficient drives, long
    life spans, and a VERY stable culture...)
    
    A one way colonization attempt, fleeing disaster is a thought.
    (I liked Footfall.)
    
    Interstellar missionaries are also a possibility - and boy would that
    create a snakes nest of potential religious schisms, splinter sects,
    wars, etc!
    
    /Butch

        SETIQuest is a new quarterly print/electronic mail (E-mail) 
    periodical containing news, technical information, and tutorials 
    devoted to bioastronomy and its subset, SETI (Search for 
    Extraterrestrial Intelligence). 

        SETIQuest is published for professionals, serious amateur 
    astronomers, and individuals curious about this fascinating field of 
    observation.  SETIQuest fills the need for a specialized astronomical 
    publication devoted exclusively to the on-going search for evidence 
    of life in the Universe.  Such evidence could be intentional or 
    inadvertent signals of other civilizations.  Such evidence could be 
    found in spectral signatures of biological activity on extrasolar
    planets or in the interstellar medium.  

        SETIQuest is written and edited for the scientifically literate 
    individual taking part in the progress of our technological 
    civilization, with articles by amateur and professional scientists.
    SETIQuest includes information about hands-on observational programs 
    that can be carried out by individuals and groups of amateur
    astronomers at radio and optical wavelengths.  

        SETIQuest is filled with articles covering topics such as:
 
        * Tutorials about bioastronomy and SETI
        * Microwave or optical SETI as practiced by amateurs
        * "Do-it-yourself" participation in bioastronomy and SETI activities
        * Book reviews
        * Regular commentary on issues relevant to SETI and bioastronomy:
 
        SETI and the political milieu
 
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    failure in the search
 
        SETI as a parable of science versus pseudo science
 
        Publications Watch:  Summaries of recent scientific/general 
    publications relevant to SETI
 
        For your FREE issue of SETIQuest (Volume 1, Number 1), send us 
    your postal address by fax, E-mail, or conventional mail to: 
 
        SETIQuest Inquiries, Department EX
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        Telephone: (603) 924-9631  FAX (603) 924-7408
        Internet E-mail: [email protected]

    --------------------------------=|=---------------------------------------
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       --< Publishers of Sensors, ID Systems and SETIQuest magazines >--
                 (what else do you do after starting BYTE?) 
    INTERNET:  [email protected]
    SNAILMAIL: 174 Concord Street, Peterborough, NH 03458 
    PHONE:     603-924-9631            -=-  FAX: 603-924-7408

        The October 1994 issue of SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN will be a single 
    topic issue on life in the Universe.  The following articles will be 
    included:

	Life in the Universe, Steven Weinberg

	Origins of the Earth, Robert P. Kirshner

	The Evolution of Life on Earth, Stephen Jay Gould

	The Emergence of Intelligence, William H. Calvin

	Sustaining Life on Earth, Robert W. Kates

	Will Robots Inherit the Earth?, Marvin Minsky

	The Search for Extraterrestrial Life, Carl Sagan

From:	US3RMC::"[email protected]" "MAIL-11 Daemon" 22-SEP-1994 
To:	[email protected]
CC:	
Subj:	Re: Citation Help

Dear James

>Has anyone on this list read the following?   Arkhipov, A.V., _Probable 
>locations of Extraterrestrial Civilizations_, 1986, NTIS No. DE88702605/HDM.
>It is in Russian and fairly short, as I recall from the reference.  
>According to the long bibliographic citation on the NTIS CD-ROM, he has 
>identified four sol-type stars where there is evidence for SETI.

Yes, I got all the references and we have been observing two of them
(that are in the southern sky) from the Argentine Intitute for
Radioastromy since 1987, and since 1990 with an spectrum analyzer of
8.4 million channels with 0.05 Hz resolution per bin. We use the 1420
MHz hydrogen line and 1667 MHz oxhydril line at three different rest
frames: heliocentric (LSR), galactic barycenter and cosmic background.
NO signals were detected from those directions in the sky. 

The idea of Alexei Arkhipov was that he found that 4 nearby star were 
very close to some radio continuum sources, so he suppose that there was 
a possibility that "the radio continuum noise" could be generated by 
"domestic extraterrestrial radio emission". Unfortunately there are lots 
of stars that are generating a lot of radio emission caused by "natural" 
sources (there is a new chapter in astronomy call: Radio stars, that 
have been developed since we began using Very Large Array Radio telescopes).

You can fin an English reference with the positions of those stars in 
the following International Astronomical Union Proceeding:
"Bioastronomy:The Next Steps", G. Marx (Ed.), Astrophysics and Space 
Science Library vol. 144, Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1988.

In the same proceeding you can also find a more intersting case of 
"radio source" and star spatial correlation described by the french 
astronomer Jean Heideman.

>Second, does anyone have the correct reference for a NASA document 
>entitled "Cultural Responses to SETI"?  I have the title, but that is 
>all.  Computer searches are not helping.

This is a paper by Dr. Billigham that was circulated among the invited 
speakers for the international conference SETI & SOCIETY that will be 
held next year in France.

>Third, does anyone know anything about the Search for Extraterrestrial 
>Artifacts (SETA)?  There is evidently an extensive bibliography, but 
>computer searches (again) are not helping.

There is a lot of bibliography about searches already done. NOTHING was 
found here I include the most important references:

-R. Freitas and F. Valdes, "A Search for Natural or Artificial Objects 
located at the Earth Moon Libration Points", ICARUS, vol.42, pp.442-447, 
1980.

- same authors, "A Search for objects near the Earth Moon Lagrangian 
points", ICARUS, vol.53, p.453-457, 1983

- same authors, "The Search for Extraterrestrial Artifacts (SETA), ACTA 
ASTRONAUTICA, vol.12, No.12, pp.1027-1034, 1985.

FOR THIS TOPICS AND OTHER "UNCONVENTIONAL" SCIENTIFIC SEARCHES FOR 
EXTRATERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCES, YOU SHOULD TAKE A LOOK TO MY REVIEW 
ARTICLE:

"Detectability of Extraterrestrial Technological Activities" by G. A. 
Lemarchand, in the new magazine (also an electronic version available) 
SETIQuest, vol.1, No.1 (there was a post in this list some days ago).

Best regards,

---

==================================================================
|                                                                |
|                 Guillermo A. Lemarchand                        |
|               Universidad de Buenos Aires                      |
|                                                                |
|  POSTAL ADDRESS: C.C.8 -Suc.25,                                |
|                  1425-Buenos Aires,                            |
|                  ARGENTINA                                     |
|                                                                |
|  E-MAIL: [email protected]                                     |
|                                                                |
|  PHONE: 54-1-774-0667             FAX: 54-1-786-8114           |
|                                                                |
==================================================================

% ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ======
% Date:      Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:07:00 ARG
% From: "Guillermo A. Lemarchand  " <[email protected]>
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% Message-Id: <[email protected]>
% To: [email protected]
% X-Mailer:  CHASQUI [UUPC/extended 1.11q(RAN-1.00b)]
% In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.87.9409211512.A29661-0100000@chuma>; from James
                Strange (REL) at Sep 21, 94 08:37 AM 
% Subject:   Re: Citation Help
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    This age, if no other than being the most scientifically advanced , has
    seen the maximum number of claims of aliens having visited us in the
    past [ wretched Von Daniken stuff ], they are here and now, but somehow
    unknown and invisible [ aliens do work in mysterious ways, after all
    they are aliens ], etc.
    
    How about if aliens were the size of house flies or insects ? They
    could be intelligent, they could travel faster than light, they could
    land on Earth, which is an insignificant planet on the edge of this
    galaxy. But what would they perceive ? Their time scales may be
    different and because of it, any communication would be impossible.
    
    Imagine if , in your perception , things "appeared to move slowly", for
    example the sapling planted in your garden appeared to take 3 days to
    grow an inch. By similar argument, we [ i.e. humans ] could be the
    sapling and the time it took us to move our arm from our head to the
    waist could be a few days in some other creature's time zone. By
    contrast, the alien insects could be moving too fast in our perception
    for us to study them. This is just to illustrate that even if we did
    make contact, fundamental differences in the way each species perceives
    another could result in such contact being well nigh useless, in some
    cases , we would not be even aware if any contact has been made as in
    our perception, something may seem to be alive, but no can really prove
    it. I think sometimes the fundamental error that is made is that people
    start searching for similar technologies and similar human like
    characteristics, legs, arms or even a moving body, which may not be at
    all what the alien looks like. 
    
    This is not to discourage any seekers of extra-terrestrial life but to
    make us aware of how difficult the task really is. Imagine going
    finally to an unknown planet and in our perception and per our time
    standards and definition of life, there's no life but in actuality
    there may be abundant life and they don't perceive us. We call the
    aliens something , maybe a force that we perceive, like we call the air
    blowing in our faces as wind and proceed to analyze this according to
    Earth standards. So, my theory is a little different that alien species
    may co-exist without one being even aware or say, cognizant of the
    existence of the other.
    
    Any ideas on this ?
    
    Humanic

    re .-1
    
    Somewhat reminiscent of "Dragon's Egg" by Robert Forward.

    
    	Does it have to be so different:
    
    	Define life ? (a rock is nice to another rock)

    	Define intelligent ? 
    		      what about dolphins, whales they could be
    		      intelligent or will be intelligent if they
    		      survive us, but only in their environment.
    		      Perhaps they are as cro-magnon man to us.
    		      Or are happy to exist in their selected
    		      environment.
    
    	Then we will know what we are looking for.
    
    	The thing that always get me about this argument is the time
    	scale you are really talking about. The dinosaurs lived for
    	100 million years but are now extinct. Which are the more
    	succesful species humans or cockroaches? On time scale it
    	is the cockroach. A civilization we encounter would be
    	so far ahead we would be livstock to them.
    
    	Given the distance and the time involved I think we waste
    	to much time trying to find life outside our Solar System
    	perhaps the time and money would be better spent trying to
    	understand our own planet and moving off it to provide a
    	greater viability for the future of the human race. After
    	all when you think about it we are really vulnerable to
    	things outside our control I think the figures are that
    	if a nova occurred within 50 light years we would be
    	fried to a crisp, an asteroid greater than 3 km wide
    	colliding with the planet would destroy civilization,
    	a solar fluctuation or increase in output of 2% (less ?)
    	would fry us and even a close call with a comet could
    	strip or contaminate the atmosphere. 
    
    
    						mike N

I left the Planetary Society after years of membership because I felt
it was devoting too much of its resources to Carl Sagan's personal
obsessions: SETI and Mars.

The problem is simply that there is not a single assumption one can
rationally make about extraterrestrial life.  Carbon based?  Carbon
is a very good candidate, probably the best one, but not the only
one.  Subject to natural selection?  Hard to imagine it otherwise,
but that may be a failure of imagination.

There is a place for speculation in science, but that is not its
main business.  Why else do we have science fiction?

Steve