[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference noted::sf

Title:Arcana Caelestia
Notice:Directory listings are in topic 2
Moderator:NETRIX::thomas
Created:Thu Dec 08 1983
Last Modified:Thu Jun 05 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1300
Total number of notes:18728

831.0. "Way of the Pilgrim!?" by CSCOAC::CONWAY_J (life's too important to take seriously) Wed Sep 27 1989 14:38

    I have just finished Gordon Dickson's "Way of the Pilgrim" and I
    must confess that this book arouses my curiosity!  I am;
       a. disturbed
       b. upset
       c. confused
       d. other
    
    I don't understand the reactions and emotions of the Pilgrim (Shane -
    Beast) at the finale of this story!  He had, in the face of apparently
    insurmountable odds, accomplished his objectives and staged a
    demonstration which convinced the aliens that earthmen would not submit
    to slavery and that it would be too costly for the masters to tame us
    "beasts".  God! may it ever be thus! that humans will not docilely
    submit to the chains of a conquerer!  But the hero isn't even allowed
    to feel good about his accomplishment! Instead Dickson has his
    protagonist "feeling like his oldest and dearest friend had abbandoned 
    him" or some such when the alien first-captain stops recognizing his
    presence. And in the last dialog between these two, Gordy has the first
    captain tell Shane, that the aliens are not leaving because they are
    defeated, but because we (humans) are unworthy to be the slaves of the 
    Aallaa or whatever Dickson called his aliens.  
    
    So what is the author saying here?  I can't fathom it! This alien race
    was indeed ancient as compared to us, and technologically advanced, but
    they are definitely NOT gods; they have individual and group blindspots
    and weaknesses. It is by exploiting these that Shane is able to force
    the aliens out in spite of overwhelming technical, military and
    physical force. Why should these beings have expected other free,
    intellegent beings to be grateful for the imposition of a system of 
    military serfdom under their not-so-benign rule?  Why are these beings
    so arrogant, so convinced of their cosmic superiority that they do not
    even recognize that the conquered are fellow intelligent beings, but
    instead refer to them always as "beasts" and are mildly surprized that
    we can, talk, fight, love, etc............Anyhow I feel I have missed
    something vital in this book but can't figure out what.  Any help out
    there
    
    "I've only been straight a short time....did I miss something?"
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name		DateLines
831.1Because that's the way it worked in real lifeAUSTIN::MACNEALBig MacWed Sep 27 1989 16:4910
�   Why should these beings have expected other free,
�    intellegent beings to be grateful for the imposition of a system of 
�    military serfdom under their not-so-benign rule?  Why are these beings
�    so arrogant, so convinced of their cosmic superiority that they do not
�    even recognize that the conquered are fellow intelligent beings, but
�    instead refer to them always as "beasts" and are mildly surprized that
�    we can, talk, fight, love, etc............
    
    Think back on your Earth history for a moment and I'll bet you can
    answer that question.
831.2well, maybe...YUCATN::KOLBEThe dilettante debutanteWed Sep 27 1989 16:548
    Isn't there a syndrome where captives begin to identitfy with their
    captors? I thought I'd heard about this in the cases of hostages
    we've had over the past several years.

    I also read the book and felt it was quite well done. Rememer to,
    Shane was not a rebel from the start. He was a VERY reluctant hero
    and may well have wished, once things were over, that someone would
    be taking care of him again. liesl
831.3Yeah, but......CSCOAC::CONWAY_Jlife's too important to take seriouslyWed Sep 27 1989 18:1520
    re .1       
    
    Is that it? I read this book and then I'll understand/empathize with
    how ______________________ (insert your pet minority/oppressed group)
    felt?  Seems a bit simplistic to me, especially when after bondage had
    ended the author presented the character most responsible for ending it
    as having second thoughts. I don't think that a black person (for
    example) at the time of the emancipation proclamation felt nostalgia
    for their slavery. 
    
    P.S. Your reply comes across as quite condescending, do I sound THAT
         stupid?
    
    re .2
    
    That's very true. and such identification does happen......but that
    isn't the place where my confusion lies.....I'm confused because the
    Author seems (to me) to be saying that Shane's whole course of action
    was a mistake. Go back and re-read the last page of the
    book......especially the last sentence.
831.4security vs. freedom?WECARE::BAILEYCorporate SleuthThu Sep 28 1989 17:3927
    I haven't read this, so I'm just reacting to what's been written
    so far.
    
    The hostage syndrome is called, I think, The Stockholm Syndrome.
    
    Slaves who worked for compassionate, understanding masters, so I've
    read, were indeed nostalgic for their state of captivity -- they
    knew that they would be taken care of as long as they lived.  They
    didn't consider working hard (and for these masters it wasn't the
    insane drudgery of other slave owners) too big a price to pay. 
    They knew they'd have medical care, clothes, a family, food to eat...
    all the necessities.  On their own it was much more precarious.
    (Think about the difference between those who like to "enslave"
    themselves to a big corporation for the great benefits versus those
    who would rather be entrepreneurs no matter what happens to them.)
    
    Maybe there's a commentary about the dichotomy between security
    and freedom here.  (Like I said, I haven't read it.)  But, in any
    case, alien life forms are a SF feature, and both the alien and
    the fiction parts point out that maybe you aren't SUPPOSED to
    completely understand them.  I wonder what arrogances WE unconsciously
    perpetrate on other lifeforms... one I know about is training dolphins
    to do dangerous mine retrieval work for the Navy -- so who cares
    if a smart "fish" dies -- at least it's not a human being, right?
    (And the wars are ours, not theirs.)
    
    Sherry
831.5Well, maybe....CSCOAC::CONWAY_Jlife's too important to take seriouslyFri Sep 29 1989 10:0018
    re .4
    
    I believe that such a slave mentality could exist in some after several 
    generations, but the scenario in this novel is about the alien take
    over being about 3 years in the past. Therefor all of the humans had
    known freedom. And the hostage syndrome, is kinda because since this
    madman holds your wilfare and future existance in his trembling hand,
    you had damnwell be intrested in HIS welfare and in what he considers
    good and just. Do not know if this feeling about your captor lingers
    much beyond release however.
    
    That being said, I'll allow that your point about arrogance and how we
    treat other species could be the correct interpretation of the
    metaphor.   Another maybe that the Aallaag are a metaphor for Western
    Man, in that the Aallaag would rather Die a Death as a race than
    acknowledge that things had changed and that they needed to treat their
    heretofor subject races as equals and allies in order to continue to
    grow and survive.