Conference noted::sf

    Just finished reading the "First Book of Swords".  Took me a while
    to realize this series is a loose "sequel" to "Empire of the East",
    which I read a few years ago.  I agree with your assessment ...
    enjoyable.
    
    I also just yesterday noticed the "Third Book of Lost Swords" on the
    shelf in hardcover.
    
    ... Bob

    	Can you tell me a little more about Empire of the East?  I take
    it that it was also written by Saberhagen - how long ago?  How were
    they connected?
    
    							=}John{=
    

    RE .2
    
    It's been a few years since I read it, and I can't really tell ya too
    much without giving away some spoilers.  But it's something of a
    traditional good god (Ardneh) vs. bad god (Orcus) scenario, with an
    evil eastern kingdom doing in the western world.  Some surprising
    twists, particularly around the "magic" of technology and the origins
    of Ardneh and Orcus.  If you've read the First Book of Swords you'll
    recognize the character of Ardneh, and also Draffut, the Beast Lord and
    "God of Healing".
    
    The other "gods" mentioned in the First Book of Swords weren't around
    yet.
    
    It was written by Saberhagen, and as I said, it was set in the same
    world as the "Swords ..." books, only about 2,000 years earlier.  I've
    always considered it one of his better books.
    
    ... Bob
    
    PS - I think I've still got the book laying around the house somewhere.
    If you want to drop me message and tell me your mail stop I'll be happy
    to loan it to ya.

    re:.2
    
    EMPIRE OF THE EAST first appeared as a series of three separate
    novels: THE BROKEN LANDS (1968), THE BLACK MOUNTAINS (1971), and
    CHANGELING EARTH (1973). These three novels were eventually (in
    1979) revised and combined into one large book under the title
    EMPIRE OF THE EAST.
    
    --- JERRY

    Just noticed in the bookstore on Friday that the third novel in the
    "Empire ..." trilogy is now titled "Ardneh's World".  I picked it up
    thinking it was something new, but when I opened it up it was just the
    same old story.
    
    ... Bob

    Did anyone mention _The Veils of Azlarok_?  I won't give it away,
    but i will say that I enjoyed it almost as much as ALL of the Berserker
    series. It contains a unique concept, somewhat similar to a certain
    series of books by Piers Anthony (I never give Piers credit for
    orginal thinking, but, I still love what he writes)
    
    PS I haven't seen this book in paperback for about 8 years.
    
    pete

    
    The Science Fiction Book Club is offering a 3-in-1 edition called
    "The First Triad of Lost Swords"
    
    Presumably, Saberhagen can milk this for twelve books, if he so
    desires.
    
    DFW

    	I hope he does - the books were good reading.  I was a bit
    surprised at the price for the latest paperback though (2nd Lost).
    I can't remember what I paid, but it was at least $4.00 and the
    book wasn't very long.  Luckily I got my discount from the Coop.
    (M.I.T.'s campus store.)
    
    	Any other good Saberhagen stories???
    
    							=}John{=

    RE: 12 books
    
    Didn't Shieldbreaker nuke Townsaver and Doomgiver in the ugly Third
    Book?  In that case, there can only be 10 Lost Books.
    
    				=ELB=

    re: .9
    
    			3 + 10 = 13  (true)
    
    			13 >= 12 ?   (also true)
    
    Therefore, with the three original books, and up to ten "Lost" books,
    a series of twelve novels is possible.  And I've seen wierder things
    happen in SF than a destroyed sword reappear ... at least if the
    series is selling good!!!
    
    						=}John{=

    As long as we are talking about the connection with Empire of the
    East, has anyone figured out who the h*ll the emperor is supposed
    to be??
    
    By far the most annoying thing about the first trilogy, and the
    the 3rd book in particular, was how few of the big mysteries got
    anwsered.
    
    --  Barry

    I know what you mean ... Still unanswered in the fifth book, although
    he makes an appearence in one, the other, or both 4 and 5.
    
    Could he be a (senile) being more powerful than the gods who came
    first and watched them get killed?
    
    I know Fred will let us know.  He couldn't leave an end THAT loose
    waving in the breeze.
    
    							=}John{=
    

    To Bob Bailey,
    
    	Thanks for letting me borrow Empire.  I'm not done yet, and
    today is my last day, so I thought I'd write one to say thanks and
    that I'll get it back to you ASAP. 
    
    						John (MIT '92)

    RE .9
    
    >>  Didn't Shieldbreaker nuke Townsaver and Doomgiver ...
    
    Well, yes and no ( or is that no and yes ) ...
    
    Vulcan used Shieldbreaker against both swords.  However only Doomgiver
    was "destroyed", as Townsaver was shortly used to wound the four-armed
    god Shiva, remember?
    
    ... Bob

    Well, as I haven't gotten past the Third Book, I can't answer for
    anything since then.  I DON'T remember Shiva from the first three
    books.
    
    But I was SO SURE that Townsaver was reduced to tiny pieces.  Are
    you sure it wasn't reconstructed somehow?
    
    By the way, the single worst thing about the Third Book (in my opinion)
    was how easily Shieldbreaker conquered the other swords.  This is
    especially irking when it was against Townsaver (which may have
    not been destroyed, but was certainly beaten).  Townsaver was at
    the time defending an inhabited structure.  There should have been
    NO WAY Shieldbreaker should have won.  I would have expected a
    standoff.
    
    Oh, well....
    
    				=ELB=

    OK, so I was wrong about Townsaver...
    
    I started the First Book of Lost Swords last night.  Early in, Mark
    mentions that both Doomgiver and Townsaver were destroyed by
    Shieldbreaker.  It is also mentioned that the only way to destroy one
    of the swords is to go up against Shieldbreaker with it.  The inference
    is that Shieldbreaker has greater power than the other swords in
    combat.
    
    I went back and reread the sequence with Vulcan in Tashigang.  Shiva
    gets wounded before the clash with Vulcan, and apparently it wasn't Ben
    who was wielding Townsaver, although I can't understand why he would
    have given the sword to somebody else at a time like that.  It just
    doesn't seem to be consistent with his character.
    
    This story seems to get better with each successive book, though.
    
    ... Bob

I started reading these books upon the basis of this note.  They are 
very good.  I have two types of questions, open and after ff.

Also one point on how far Saberhagen could take Swords books, if you 
have read the second book, you can see that a trick employed in the 
second book opens up a possibility of unlimited numbers of books of 
lost swords.

OPEN QUESTIONS:

I read the three books of the Empire of the East Trilogy, which I assume 
have been just rereleased, is the unified version significantly 
different?

Is/are there some other works in this universe other than the Swords 
books and the Empire of the East books?

Is the third book of Lost Swords out yet?

CLOSED QUESTIONS:


Shouldn't there be no demons in the time of the swords?  If I am not 
mistaken, demons were atomic blasts that passed through the change wave. 
When Orcus was returned to his original state, I assume the whole world 
was "rechanged".  If so, wouldn't all the rest of the demons also 
return to their original states?

Where in the world did the "gods" come from?

Where did they go, only 2 "died", Hermes and Vulcan?

Like some one else said who is the emperor in the swords era, clearly he 
isn't Omitor (sp?)?  The period between the empire of the east era and 
the swords era should be quite an interesting tale!  Why do the 
Emperor's children have protection from demons?

Tony

    answers to some ff'd questions after form feed.
    There has been much debate as to who the Emperor is.  No one is
    sure.  But he keeps giving us little hints, and there are indications
    that we will be finding out eventually.
    
    The gods came about because in _Empire_of_the_East_, Ardneh told
    them that they would need gods.  So the gods came about because
    of human belief.  Draffut said something like this in the original
    Swords trilogy.  Later, when people realized that gods could die,
    they said, "Oh, well if gods aren't omnipotent, then let's ignore
    them."  And they faded away....   Vulcan was the last to go.
    
    As for demons, I don't know that one.  Seems to me your logic works,
    but then again, Draffut was a dog at the time of the Change, and
    he didn't revert....
    
    Hope this helps some.
    
                                                               -John.

Re:< Note 647.18 by TARKIN::WISMAR "Dobry weicz�r." >

>            -< Yes, the Third Book of Lost Swords is out (hrdcvr) >-

I'll be loking for it!
and


>    Draffut was a dog at the time of the Change, and
>    he didn't revert....
    
I don't think THE CHANGE effected Draffut either way, more likely 
wasn't it the 50,000 years in the lake of life that changed him?

I just thought of why maybe there were SOME demons left, I'd like to 
know what some others think.  Maybe they were in "dungeons" like Orcus 
was when the rechange came and were "freed" after the rechange and could 
then exist in the new new world?

Tony

    More hidden comments.
    
    >    I don't think THE CHANGE effected Draffut either way, more likely 
    >    wasn't it the 50,000 years in the lake of life that changed him?
    
    Based on _Empire of the East_, it was the lake of life that gave
    Draffut his powers, but it was the Change that caused him to become
    more than a dog.  He was compared to several other beings, which
    weren't, I believe, named.
    
    But I could be wrong about this.   I'm STILL trying to figure out
    the Emperor.
                                                        -John.

                I just  started reading the first book of swords.
                I  went  looking    through  my  bookshelves  for
                something to read, and  there  it  was.  I hadn't
                recalled  reading  it  before, but  I  must  have
                picked  it  up  at some time  or  another,  so  I
                started   reading.    It  occured  to  me    that
                apparently  I  had picked it up and put  it  back
                down  after  about  10  pages  for  some  reason.
                Anyway, was  this series ever wrapped up with the
                3rd  book  of  lost  swords  or  anything?    Did
                anything come after this  3rd  book?    I haven't
                seen a note since DEC '88 so I thought I'd check.
                Too  bad  I didn't know about  the  3  associated
                books.  Perhaps I'll go back to them afterwards.
                
                Thanks, Rob
                
                

RE: .-1

>> ... was this series ever wrapped up with the 3rd book of lost swords or 
>>     anything?

Ahh upp ... Fred wrote a trilogy describing the swords of the gods and the
interactions with the meer humans.  This trilogy has the creative titles of:

	The First Book of Swords 
        The Second Book of Swords
        The Third Book of Swords 

By the end of this series both the gods and swords are lost (swords lost only
for a generation or two).  The Lost Swords series (so far 5 books) starts 
finding the swords again, but this time each sword has it's own book.  These
titles include:

	Woundhealer's Story 
        Sightblinder's Story
        Stonecutter's Story
        Farslayer's Story  
        Coinspinner's Story

None of these books are "great works", but they do pass the time in an
entertaining fashion.

Paul

                Ah!  That is what I meant... so there are two more
                lost sword books than have previously been mentioned
                here.  I'm off to the mall to buy The 2nd book of swords.
                I was kind of surprised when this book ended because
                there was probably 35 pages left.  Turned out
                to be some sort of afterward by somebody else.  Haven't
                looked at it much yet.

                Thanks!  - Rob, out! -

    
    I must say book 2 was terrible.  The way the demon was turned, the way
    the party escaped (oh gee guys, mind if we keep all our weapons and
    equipment while you get so drunk that you wont notice us leave?)
    
    Left a bad taste in my mouth.  Book 3 has been a BIT better so far.  
    

Have anyone noticed that book 2 reads more like a D & D game than a real story?

Article: 537                                  
From: [email protected] (Humphrey Aaron V)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.reviews
Subject: Retrograde Reviews--Fred Saberhagen: A Spadeful of Spacetime
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 16:53:53 GMT
Organization: not specified
 
Fred Saberhagen, editor: A Spadeful of Spacetime
 
A Retrograde Review by Aaron V. Humphrey
 
This is an anthology of stories, edited by Fred Saberhagen, which is
dedicated to the theme of "time travel" without machines.  Apparently
Saberhagen is of the opinion that the time machine is too convenient a
plot device, and wishes to see that stories can still be written that
circumvent it. 
 
The stories are not what one would expect.  I, personally, was
expecting a bunch of stories about people who could time travel
without machines. After finishing the book, I had realized that that
would just be replacing the plot device of the time machine with the
plot non-device of characters who can just travel through time for no
apparent reason. 
 
By far the best story, IMHO, is R.A. Lafferty's "Bank And Shoal of
Time". But then, Lafferty never fails to amuse me.  His style is
frenetic, bizarre, and nonlinear.  (I'm told he can't keep it up for
an entire novel, but all his short stories I've read are amazing.) 
This comes the closest to having people who can "just" travel by
themselves, if they can just find some way to get past the barrier of
their previous lifespan...but that's not really the point of the story. 
 
Then we have the Zelazny story "Go Starless In The Night", about the
corpsicle whose brain is woken many years in the future by benevolent
aliens...or are they?  Chad Oliver's "To Whom It May Concern", about
nothing less mundane than the inheritance passed on by the last tribe
of hunter-gatherers; Orson Scott Cards "St. Amy's Tale", about the
Rectifiers, who are determined to destroy all traces of technological
life on Earth; "The Final Days" by Dave Langford, about a method of
detecting observers from the future that thus calls attention to those
with future importance--and the ramifications this has to politics;
"Recessional" by Fred Saberhagen himself, about a method of retrieving
information from the skull of a dead body; "The Child Who Cried For
The Moon" by Connie Willis, a beautiful story of a therapy based on
observing stories enacted in a distant galaxy; "Grain of Truth" by
Charles A. Spano, Jr.,where extinct "borealipithecines" are
re-created, and the truth about Santa Claus is determined; "Forward"
by Steve Rasnic Tem, a short short story that...well, _I_ didn't
understand it...; "Strata" by Edward Bryant, a story about how the
earth defends itself from pillaging with the spirits of long-dead
creatures; "Forefather Figure" by Charles Sheffield, about an
experiment to revive the mind of a Neanderthal; "Experimentum Crucis"
by Rivka Jacobs, an odd story about a pair condemned to death in medieval 
Europe who mysteriously survive several executions; and a trio of poems 
by Robert A. Frazier about a computer reconstructing the past. 
 
Many of them left me cold(Oliver's, Sheffield's and Jacobs'), or I
didn't really _get_ (Tem's and Saberhagen's), but a few were
good(Lafferty's, Willis's, Langford's).  Altogether an anthology that
tends more towards the literary and abstruse, a bit much for my tastes. 
 
%A Saberhagen, Fred
%T A Spadeful of Spacetime
%I Ace
%C New York
%D February 1981
%G ISBN 0-441-77766-X
%P 214 pp.
%O Paperback, US$2.25
 
--
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