Conference noted::sf

    Sure,
    
    	I've enjoyed them all.  Some individual comments would have
    to include a warning that the books are not a series to be read
    in a particular order, although some orders are recommended.  I
    was expecting more from her last book City of Sorcery, it seemed
    to stop with about 3 or 4 chapters missing.
    
    
    					Chris

    	I have enjoyed many of the DARKOVER stories and novels. However
    the only one I found exceptional was "The Bloody Sun". I will read
    it again - someday.
    	The world she has created is extremely intriguing. I wish she
    would work in more of the special aspects, races, or altercations
    created by this world.
    

    It's been a while since I read most of MZB's Darkover novels.  I
    was always partial to Regis Hastur and the works she did around
    his time (Heritage of Hastur, Sharra's Exile).  I think she has
    developed an excellent world, with a clashing of cultures that seem
    to be unable, or unwilling, to understand each other (Comyn, Terrans,
    Catpeople, Free Amazons, and the like).  I would very much like
    to read more on the Chieri (don't think I spelled it right, you
    know, the Beautiful Ones).  Maybe a book about them before Landfall,
    or even a story of Landfall from their viewpoint.
    
    I think her treatment of women in Darkover society gives some
    interesting insight into some of our own history.  But I guess good 
    fantasy always seem to find a way to do that. 
    
    I do hope she writes more Darkover novels.  I'll certainly read
    them.
    		... Bob
    

    The first Darkover novel I read was THE FORBIDDEN TOWER, because
    it was a Hugo nominee. I liked it a lot and went on a binge
    reading the rest of the series up to that point, as well as the
    next couple. I enjoyed most of them, but by the time I became
    current on the series, I got bored with it, and haven't read
    any since STORMQUEEN. I've been tempted to read CITY OF SORCERY
    only because she wrote it as a sort of pastiche of Talbot Mundy,
    whose books I thoroughly enjoy.
    
    My favorite of the series is THE SHATTERED CHAIN, followed by
    THE HERITAGE OF HASTUR.
    
    --- jerry

	I'm a big fan of MZB and have most of her books. I've also enjoyed
	many of the Friends of Darkover stories as well.

	An interesting side of the Darkover stories is the great popularity
	of the Free Amazons. There were women who changed their names to the
	Renunciate forms and there were several guild houses formed.

	I also enjoy MZB's comments in the forwards. She's a little harsh
	at times but always interesting. liesl n'ha gwen :*)

    It's interesting that this topic came up when it did.  I was checking
    out the new publications at the bookstore the other day and came
    across a new (?) Friends of Darkover book "The Red Sun of Darkover".
    I'm about halfway through it and it ain't bad.  There's even a brief
    glimpse of Landfall through the eyes of the chieri in one of the
    stories, like I asked for in .3.  Talk about service!
    
    ... Bob
    

My favorite is The Forbidden Tower.  It's a story about standing up against
authority for what you believe in.  It's about different baggage different
people bring into a group, and how they reconcil all of it.

Jim. 

    Hi
    
    I just picked up a copy of MZB's "The Ruins of Isis".  Has anyone
    read it?  Any comments please.
    
    Marilyn
    (down
     under)
    

                      <<< Note 534.8 by SNOC02::SKENNAR >>>
                             -< The Ruins of Isis >-

<    I just picked up a copy of MZB's "The Ruins of Isis".  Has anyone
<    read it?  Any comments please.
    

      One of my favorite MZB stories. Thought provoking and a fun read.
      Her treatment of the main characters reactions to the shift of
      authority from the husband to the wife brought a lot of marriage
      and cultural expectations into question. liesl

    I  also liked it. My only problem was wondering as a biologist
    how the women had all come to have their cycles so closely
    in sync with their times of 'visiting the sea'.
    
    Bonnie

<    I  also liked it. My only problem was wondering as a biologist
<    how the women had all come to have their cycles so closely
<    in sync with their times of 'visiting the sea'.
    

      Bonnie, I thought that women who lived together sort of
      automatcally synced up on their cycles. I seem to remember that in
      school dorms that happened. liesl

    Liesl,
    
    They do sync to a degree but it is never 100% - and it requires
    a degree of proxmity to work...the active principle as it were
    appears to be phreomones given off in sweat. This might work for
    women all living in the same house, but wouldn't account for the
    all the women in the while society being in sync.
    
    Bonnie

    Hi!,
    I just recently discovered MZB after a friend had loaned me "CITY
    OF SORCERY". I then went on to read "THENDARA HOUSE" but I feel
    so in the dark regarding the whole scenario.  I would like to start
    from scratch but don't which book to read first.   Does anyone know
    what the order of her Darkover novels are.....I don't want to keep
    reading out of order and wondering what role charectars have played
    in the grand scheme and theme of the series.
    
    Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks!
    Addie
        

Hi,

	If the novels had been written sequentially I would agree with you, but
MZB leaps all over the place. One novel will be way in the future of the
previous, then the next will be way in the past of both. I don't think you
really gain anything by reading them in the order they were written. As a
general rule of thumb, you can assume that the skinnier the novel, the longer
ago she wrote it.

Mike JN

    She rewrote at least two, didn't she?

    It would be nice to have a chronology of settings of the novels, though
    I don't necessarily recommend reading them in that order.

    I don't like MZB's stories.  I like the concept of Darkover, I think
    she's got a lot of good ideas, but her characterizations are so damn flat!
    This caries over to her non-Darkover books, like the excellent Mists of
    Avalon.  Many are very good, but they are painful to read for that one
    reason.

    I discovered both MZB and Ursula K. Leguin at the same time, so I have
    difficulty reading MZB without comparing both her characterization and
    her philosophy to UKL's, which I enjoy much more.

    There is a UKL topic out there, I think.  Is there an MZB topic, or
    is this it?

    Is there a topic for Wendy Pini or her Elfquest stories?  I couldn't
    find it.

    -- mikeK

    Since my previous entry, I have gone on to read a total of four
    of her Darkover series.  I am, to be truthful, spell bound by the
    concept of Darkover itself and the charectars in it. Magda, Jaelle, 
    Rohana, Andrew Carr and others. I believe it is the depth of the
    charectars that has me intrigued not just the setting of Darkover.
    Her (MZB) writing though has been confusing in it's style and that
    is probably due to the fact that so much time has elapsed between
    her earlier novels and her later ones.  Also, I have found she
    is contridictory at times regarding situations, etc, but for all
    that the Darkover series is an excellent piece to the point of
    brilliance. 
    
    Addie  
         

Well, I just did a DIR/TITLE=URSULA and found nothing. If there's a topic on
her, feel free to move this.

Just heard she has a New Earth Sea book out. I don't know the name (actually, I
forgot), but I noticed it was billed as the last book of Earth Sea (or some
such thing). At least she didn't call it the fourth book of the trilogy.

Mike JN

    My mistake.  I remember thinking (when I read a bunch of MZB quite some time
    ago) that all her *male* characters are flat.  (Except for one; I forget his
    name.)  Her females are very interesting and well-developed characters.
    Nothing wrong with that.  The Camelot/Excalibur legend told from the women's
    point of view in Mists of Avalon was excellent for just that reason.

    But she makes all the men into dumb apes.  Gimme a break!

    So her stories are not disinteresting (as they obviously would be if *all*
    her characters were flat), but it is annoying when fifty percent of the
    characters may as well not be there except to provide some sort of natural
    disaster to challenge the rest of the cast.  Telling tales from the women's
    viewpoint is fine, and especially interesting because it is (unfortunately)
    less common than the men's viewpoint or "neutral" viewpoint.  But how many
    women really take the view that all men are just warts on face of creation?

    -- mikeK

    RE:-.1

    I don't think it's a fair statement that MZB has only flat male
    charaters who are warts on the face of humanity. Several are quite
    heroic. "Forbiden Tower" has some great male characters. Then there's
    the guy (whose name I can't remember right now) who lost his arm. Was
    it Lew?

    If you have been reading only the Free Amazon type novels then maybe
    the men are more of an "evil" bent but even there some of the
    characters are quite noble. It's been so long since I've read any of
    the Darkover novels that names pretty much escape me.

    Her book "The Firebrand" (I think that's the name, what can I say,
    memory is the first to go :)) is a great story. Both men and women have
    there deffinate bad sides but that's like real life isn't it? liesl

    It was Lew in Forbidden Tower.  (I forget his clan name.)  He was the one
    who's name I forgot in my previous note.  Don't recall any other heroic
    Darkover men, though some passive instead of evil.

    -- mikeK

    The first book in the series (chronology of Darkover) has to be
Darkover Landfall.  Although there is a large gap between this setting and
any other Darkover tale.  I try to think of possible connections between
the time "Earthers" first landed on Darkover and their rediscovery.  


					KBear

    RE "flat" male characters ...
    
    I can't say I agree at all.  I just think that MZB develops her
    characters from something of a feminist viewpoint.  I think that she 
    has deliberately created a Darkover culture based heavily on male
    domination.  Thus the majority of her male characters come across as
    rather boorish and brutal.  Perhaps she's trying to make a social 
    statement ... at least that's how I always interpreted it.  
    
    However, not all of her male characters are like that.  Lew Alton was
    mentioned already.  This seems to be the period where she has done the
    best job of developing male characters with real depth.  Regis Hastur
    and his relationship with his paxman, Danilo for instance.  Even the
    "bad guy" of the period, Dyan Ardais is shown to have a more human side
    on occasion.  
    
    And don't forget Varzil the Good.  He it was who's foresight resulted
    in the Compact and allowed the Sisterhood of the Sword to found the Order
    of Renunciates (Free Amazons).
    
    
    RE. Chronological order of the Darkover novels ...
    
    
    THE FOUNDING - - - - - - - Darkover Landfall
    
    THE AGES OF CHAOS -	- - -  Stormqueen
    			       Hawkmistress
    
    THE HUNDRED KINGDOMS - - - Two to Conquer
    			       The Heirs of Hammerfell
    
    THE RENUNCIATES - - - - -  The Shattered Chain
                               Thendara House
                               City of Sorcery
    
    THE FIRST (TERRAN) AGE - - The Spell Sword
                               The Forbidden Tower
    
    THE SECOND (TERRAN) AGE -  The Heritage of Hastur
                               Sharra's Exile
    
    DARKOVER ANTHOLOGIES - - - Sword of Chaos
                               Red Sun of Darkover
                               The Other Side of the Mirror
                               The Keeper's Price
                               Free Amazons of Darkover
                               Four Moons of Darkover
                               Domains of Darkover
    
    Enjoy ...
    
    		... Bob
    
    

    Wasn't there also a novel called "The Bloody Sun" that fits in one of
    the Terran ages. It's a long book but I'm not certain about the title.
    liesl

    At the introduction in one of her books, she refers to "The Bloody
    Sun" but I have not been able to find.  Tonight I am going to try
    and order it if at all possible.
    
    BTW.....I've read about seven of her books to date and have not
    found in any of them any reference to why Earth people came to be 
    known as Terrans.  Can anyone shed a clue?
    
    I enjoy her writing very much.
    
    Addie                                      
    

    "Terra" = Latin for "Earth".  It's not a special made-up name
    (see "terrarium", "terrestrial" in any dictionary).
    
    As Asimov pointed out, the name for "people from Venus" is
    properly either "Vernereals" or "Aphrodisiacs" (from an amusing
    article of the '70s in F&SF).
    
    			-John Bishop

    This is the list of Darkover novels that I have in my possession.
    	The Bloody Sun does exist.
    
                	City of Sorcery
	        	Darkover Landfall
                	Hawkmistress
	        	Sharra's Exile
	        	Star of Danger
                	Stormqueen
                	Sword of Choas
	        	The Bloody Sun
	        	The Forbidden Tower	       
	        	The Heritage of Hastur
                	The Planet Savers
                	The Shattered Chain
	        	The Spell Sword
                	The Sword of Aldones
                	The Winds of Darkover
	        	The World Wreckers
                	Thendara House
                	Two to Conquer
	        Collections with The Friends of Darkover
               		Free Amazons of Darkover
			Greyhaven
			Red Sun of Darkover
			The Other Side of the Mirror  
			Four Moons of Darkover
    
    					Chris

    In fact, not only does THE BLOODY SUN exist, but two separate
    versions of it exist. It was revised and expanded about 10
    years ago.
    
    --- jerry

Re .22

The "chronology" currently in the DAW editions of the Darkover novels
is flawed in that it doesn't list any of the six novels published by Ace.

At one point I had a chronology written that, for that "modern" novels
(post-Terran contact), included a year by year timeline.  Unfortunately,
MZB has never been consistent about who was born when, or how old
certain characters are compared with others, so any attempt is doomed
to failure.  If there is a demand, I'll search through my stuff at home
and see if I can find my most recent attempt.  For now, here is a more
correct version than DAW is offering, since their divisions are artificial,
especially the "Renunciates" vs. "First Terran Age", which are concurrent.
Major time breaks (hundreds or thousands of years) are denotes by blank
lines, minor breaks by an exact or approximate period, and periods of
less than five years between books are not noted.  Note that there is
still controversy as to whether Planet Savers comes before or after
Sword of Aldones.
    
    Darkover Landfall
    
    Stormqueen
    Hawkmistress
    
    Two to Conquer
    The Heirs of Hammerfell
    
    The Shattered Chain, Part I
    (approx. 10 years)
    The Spell Sword
    The Forbidden Tower
    The Shattered Chain, Parts II and III
    Thendara House
    City of Sorcery
    (approx. 12 years)
    The Bloody Sun, revised edition, prologue only
    Star of Danger
    The Winds of Darkover
    (approx. 20 years)
    The Bloody Sun, revised edition, remainder; first edition, all
    (11 years)
    The Heritage of Hastur
    The Planet Savers
    Sharra's Exile/The Sword of Aldones
    The World Wreckers
    
				Andrew

    In a forward written by MZB (I don't remember what book) she states
    that she knows not all the times and people match up. Basically,
    according to her, she went for story line rather than time line and
    wrote what seemed right at the time. She also didn't really envision
    how much this would catch on a series. liesl

Re .29 (on MZB forword where she explains why she felt free to ignore
        chronology and consistency)

> She also didn't really envision how much this would catch on a series.

She could use that excuse up through, say, The Forbidden Tower, but not
in anything she wrote later. Thendara House and City of Sorcery play 
unnecessary havoc with timelines.

She also messes up when rewriting old books to make them more fully parts
of the Darkover mythos (the Bloody Sun revision, and writing Sharra's
Exile to take the place of Sword of Aldones).  In my book, that's
insulting the intelligence of the faithful reader.

				Andrew

    I just finished "The Heirs to Hammerfell" and was seriously
    disapointed. It surprizes me that the author of such fine books as
    "Forbidden Tower", "The Firebrand" and "Ruins of Isis" could produce
    this obvious pap. I wondered at times if this was written during her
    illness and Barbra Cartland was the ghost writer. (OK, I've never
    actually read a Barbra Cartland book but I know the genre).

    This book started out weak, seemed towards the middle that maybe she
    could save it and then crashed into complete "and the handsome prince
    took her into his arms" sop at the end. Yuck, even the use of telepathy
    was inconsistant and near the end turned into a magical "save the day"
    device.

    I suppose this is only to be expected when fans and publishers force an
    author to write on a subject she has declared as no longer interesting
    to her. liesl

    re -1
    
    Thanks for clearing up one thing: she's lost interest in the series.
    
    I've enjoyed most of what MZB has written. Both the Darkover novels and
    the other books on the Trojan war and the Arthurian legends and the
    "Web" books.
    
    The Heirs of Hammerfell was pitiful. And that's being nice about it.
    

    re -2:
    
    Really? She has lost interest in Darkover?!  Too bad!  I discovered
    Darkover Landfall about 10 years ago, and didn't follow up until about 
    two years ago, when I "re-discovered" the series.  She now has the
    largest shelf space on my bookshelf (closely followed by Asimov)
    
    It's an interesting world.  She writes about a feudal, patriarchial
    society from a feminist viewpoint... makes for unique insights!
    
    Heirs of Hammerfell WAS forgettable... If the series is to end, I hope
    it goes out with more of a bang than that!
    
    
    Does anyone know if the Friends of Darkover anthologies continue?
    
    
    Jamd

    
    Try again... 
    
    Anyone know how to reach the friends of Darkover?
    
    
    
    ADVthanksVANCE
    Jamd

Just look in the back of the Sword and Sorcerous anthologies. They used to list
it there. If I rememeber I'll check my books tonight. liesl

OK, here's what they have...

Friends of Darkover
Thendara Council
Box 72, Berkeley, CA 94701

enclose a SASE for information.

It seems MZB is also putting out a Fantasy magazine

write to MZB
P.O. box 249
Berkeley, CA 94701

If you're interested in writing for the mag send a SASE guidelines. Given the
forward she wrote in S&S VI (I think) don't even think of submitting a romance.
She really doesn't like those. Had quite a bit to say about Barbra Cartland.
liesl

    re:.36
    
    	� It seems MZB is also putting out a Fantasy magazine. �
    
    It's been around for a couple of years now. MARION ZIMMER BRADLEY'S
    FANTASY MAGAZINE is not available on newstands, but can be found at
    science fiction specialty stores. I don't believe that MZB actually
    has anything to do with the publishing of it, but she might have some
    editorial input on it, as Asimov did with ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE
    FICTION MAGAZINE.
    
    --- jerry