Conference noted::sf

    	You are aware that Frank Herbert died a few months ago.
    
    	Larry
    

    Aside from the Dune books, the only series that Herbert wrote are:
    
    The Jorj McKie series:
    
    	WHIPPING STAR
    	THE DOSADI EXPERIMENT
    
    The VoidShip series:
    
    	DESTINATION: VOID
    	THE JESUS INCIDENT -|____ with Bill Ransom
    	THE LAZARUS EFFECT -|
    
    All of his other novels are completely independent.
    
    --- jerry

    re .1
    
    	Yes, I am; however, I heard rumors that he was writing book
    seven with his son because he knew he only had so long (he had cancer
    I believe).
    

    re .2
    	Thanks, I believe I am in the spirit to get back into some Herbert
    with this info.
    

    The correct order in which to read the Dune series is:
    
    Start with DUNE.
    
    Stop there.
    
    						Don
    

    Hey, I actually liked DUNE MESSIAH, too. Not nearly as much as
    DUNE, admittedly, but it was still good.
    
    --- jerry

re: .6

Ditto--'Messiah' was the down side of what went up in 'Dune',
which probably lessens the appeal somewhat, but it was still
pretty well written.  Somewhere after that, though, Herbert
seemed to get very callous with his characters: they began to
get a little TOO scheming and cynical to care about, and the
books frequently ended with a bloodbath as the way loose ends
got tied up.

I still like some of the early ones like 'Dragon in the Sea'
and 'Destination Void', but those weren't part of the Dune
series.  Also used to like 'Soul Catcher' (non-SF) a lot,
but I'm kind of afraid to re-read it now--for some reason I
have the feeling it might not wear well.

    RE: .5
    Don, you are the correctest guy around.
    
    I _loved_ Dune..
    ..liked Messiah..
    ..was indifferent to Children..
    ..and made it a few chapters into God-Emperor before I lost interest
      completely.
    

    
      Can anyone explain in short what the last three books are about?
     
      Please?
    
    
                                       PC

    very short...
    the uses of power, breeding of ellete humans and the problems
    of a man become a god.... 

    I don't know what you all found so boring about the series.  I admit
    there was a bit of a slump there for awhile, but I loved all six
    books.  Maybe your sense of imagination is DULL!!!  To those of
    you just getting into it or debating whether to read the rest of
    the books, here is a little incentive...
    
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    SPOILER      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Book 1 - DUNE - this book introduces the world of Dune.  The world
    is comprised of Humans; however, some have deformed from the use
    of the Spice (Mellange).  You learn of the wars going on, the hatred
    between the different groups in the universe, and the government
    and organization.  You also learn of the planet Dune (aka: Arrakis,
    Rakis, etc).  The planet is special because it is the only planet
    on which the spice can be found.  Why?  Read it and find out.  The
    book leaves you with Paul, the only man who could take the spice
    in its liquid and most raw form and survive.  Paul literally becomes
    a god.
    
    Book 2 - DUNE MESSIAH - a somewhat boring book, but short.  Paul
    and his wife now rule the universe.  Paul sees a vision though that
    doesn't allow him to go on.  After his cacubine has twins, she
    dies, and Paul just up and leaves, walking out into the desert.
    
    Book 3 - CHILDREN OF DUNE - the action picks up a bit.  The twins
    are now nine years old and are nearly as god-like as their father
    Paul, who noone has seen since the twins birth.  However, it is
    said that he lives as a religious preacher in the desert.  Something
    happens where the children have to leave or they would have been
    killed.  The girl dies; however, little Leto II lives and takes
    over again.  Leto II has discovered powers his father never thought
    of having.  Not only that, but he has undergone a transformation
    that has made him physically powerful and almost literally immortal
    and invisible.
    
    Book 4 - GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE - more than 10 millenium following
    Leto II's transformation.  Leto II is now part worm, part human.
    He is recognized as a living God, and a tyrant.  He is eventually
    killed though by one of his own relatives.
    
    Book 5 - HERETICS OF DUNE - 13000 years after Leto II's death. 
    The Bene Gesserit now rule (more or less).  Technology is no longer
    taboo.  No-ships, no-globes, and no-rooms are used to hide from
    the spices power.  Dune is destroyed, with one worm surviving.
    The Bene Gesserit take the worm to a planet no one knows of, which
    they hope to transfrom into the second Dune.
    
    Book 6 - CHAPTERHOUSE DUNE - 29 years after the destruction of Rakis.
    The Bene Gesserit are successfully transforming their base planet,
    Chapterhouse, into a second Dune by use of the worm and weather
    satellites.  A great book if you want to learn more of Ghola
    construction, the Bene Theilax, and the Bene Gesserit.  An obvious
    string left at the end, hinting greatly at another book.
    
    

    Anyone out there with a dull imagination?  (<--- mild admonishment)
    
    You loved them all.  About book 2 you said "a somewhat boring book".
    In book 3 the "action picks up a bit".  (I agree; it was O.K., but
    not good enough to get into the next one.)
    
    Thank you for your support.
    
    Doesn't this "series" remind you a little of the Lensman series?
    Bigger & better with each one?
                                                                   
    Now there's a new Arrakis for a new group to control the Spice and
    another to try to take it away and Hey!:  Another DUNE!  And his
    son could write it and everything!
    
    With Mr. Herbert's death, I think the Dune story can be put to rest
    also.
    
    My 2 cents?  Read DUNE.  Definitely.  Try D M, etc.  Quit when you've
    hit saturation.  If you can make it thru'em all, fine.  Who knows,
    maybe someday I'll take G-E off the shelf & try it myself.  There's
    a few hundred ahead of it though.
              
    						Don
     

    	You can't possibly know what I mean when I say that I loved
    them all until you read them all.  True, there is a bit of a slump
    after Dune.  But I had enough imagination to take me through the
    slump into what I believed was one of the most coherent series I
    have ever read.  By itself I would say that DUNE MESSIAH stunk;
    however, the six books (and hopefully seven) together make a
    masterpiece.  It is like a painting that has been cut up, no piece
    by itself has a tremendous amount of value; however, together it
    could be a priceless masterpiece.  I also hope there will be a book
    seven, for CHAPTERHOUSE DUNE left several strings.  All indications
    said that there would absolutely be a seventh book.  My hopes are
    that his son finishes writing the book for him and does it in a
    manner that leaves no strings, wrapping up the universe of DUNE.
    Do your imagination a favor:  since you have given it a break, go
    back and start reading where you left off and just stick with it;
    however, this time when reading it, open up your mind and become
    one of the characters, try to see the world through their eye's,
    try to smell the aroma of melange coffee, try to taste the cinnamon
    flavor of melange, and try to feel the heat of the desert (this
    works even better if you snuggle up next to a fire place with a
    cup of cinnamon coffee at hand.  Try it, but don't pass judgement
    on a piece, wait till you finish the entire series.
    
    

    You may have missed the point.  If a story/series/anything is not
    your cup of tea (or coffee) there's no sense sticking with it when
    there are others to read.  e.g.: When I finish The Grain Kings I
    start STARTIDE RISING; after TOMBSTONE I begin Horan's THE WILD
    BUNCH; COMBAT-PACIFIC THEATER follows COMBAT PILOTS OF WWII.  Somewhere
    in there I may finish a re-read of KIDS SAY THE DARNDEST THINGS
    and a few more works from LEAVES OF GRASS.  
    
    I would not think of forcing a book down anyone's literary throat;
    I can only recommend and/or give my impressions.   Pros & cons make
    Notesfiles great reading & I trust reviews in here more than those
    I read in the newspaper.  (I would not have read David Brin if not
    for recommendations in SF.)
    
    While I can't possibly know what you mean when you say that you
    loved them all (even though you didn't say that in the reply I replied
    to) I can say I have, in the past, enjoyed series that may not have
    held up well as individual works (World of Tiers springs to mind).
    Offhand I can think of 3 SF-ish series I'm sticking with that I'm
    sure would incite brisk discussion.
    
    So, if I honestly could not stick with DUNEs but you loved it, great.
    As I said before, read DUNE & try D M; it is up to the individual
    to decide whether or not it is worth continueing the series.
                               
    						Don

I've found the discussion here fascinating.  Just to relate my own feelings
after reading what I did of the Dune series:

"Dune" is a SF classic.  It stands by itself, head and shoulders above the
crowd, and requires nothing from the rest of the series to make it better. In
fact, it is the only reason to read anything in the series, as far as I can
tell.  I have re-read this novel more often than anything I own, with the
exception of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress."

"Dune Messiah" is slow, boring and yet, not that bad.  It expands on the
problems of a harsh, unyielding culture that suddenly finds itself in the
midst of plenty.  Yet, when I first read it, I hated it.  Only after
re-reading it a few years later did I find the hidden nuggets of good. 

"Children of Dune" ends in the most hokey deus ex machina I have ever had the
displeasure of reading.  This tends to destroy its value as far as I am
concerned.  Keith Laumer, intentionally writing no-brainer fiction, I will
allow to perpetrate such a lightweight ending - Frank Herbert, writing a
sequel to two serious novels, should have known better.  Because of this, I
have been unable to force myself to try it again, although I have had the
example of "Dune Messiah" to make me ocassionally think about it. 
                                               
I read "God Emporer of Dune" with high hopes.  Maybe Herbert would make amends
for his stylistic faux pas in "Children".  But nope - he *glories* in it. I
got really bored with the "yet another Duncan Idaho" syndrome, too.  Bah. I
threw this one out. 

I quit reading the series then, after thoroughly disliking the last two. Don
is right - this series is definitely one of reaching a saturation level and
quitting. 

- Chris

re: .the_last_few

The other thing that might make you hesitant to continue with
the "Dune" series is some of the other books Herbert was putting
out contemporaneously.  Like "The Jesus Incident" and "The
Dosadi Experiment".  Sorry, but I just get the feeling his
writing started to go downhill at that point.  The emphasis on
continuations to series (was "The White Plague" the only
exception to this?) would seem to indicate that he was having
trouble coming up with new situations.  And I liked Jorj McKie
and Raja Flattery AND Duncan Idaho better the first time(s)
around.

    I loved Dune!!!!!!  And will admit that DM was almost the demise of m

    To continue.....
    
    I will admit that DM was almost the demise of my continued reading of
    the trilogy, but I continued and came to fall in love with the
    characters and the way of life there.  I was happy to find out that
    there are three more books that I can now look forward to.
    
    I actually named my cat Duncan Idaho, because  I thought Idaho was a
    really interesting character.  
    
    
    Reading it again will be good because there is so much information to
    recall in the future books that it almost warrants a second reading. It
    only took me two month to read all of them and I just couldn't put them
    down.
    
    There were many religous conitations to this book and found that very
    interesting, especially when  I read his book the "White Plague" that
    also spewed forth many religous issues.  Was he a very much into the
    bible or did he just use this as a point.
    
    Well I am glad that I found this and have many more questions to
    ask,but shall await until someone starts to enter things in here again.
    
    A very happy Dune fan, 

    
    	Wasn't "The White Plague" by James Herbert?
    
    		Ian G.

    re .19:
    
    > Wasn't "The White Plague" by James Herbert?
    
    Yes
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

           <<< Note 354.20 by ELRIC::MARSHALL "hunting the snark" >>>
                          -< white plague is herbert >-

 >   re .19:
 >   
 >   > Wasn't "The White Plague" by James Herbert?
 >   
 >   Yes
    
    	'scuse me, but I think that one was done by the Father...Frank.
    
    	Chralie
    

    re .21:
    
    Can I read the question again? I read _Frank_ Herbert. Honest.
    Even cutting and pasting I didn't notice _James_ in the question.
    
    YES, "The White Plague" is written by FRANK Herbert, _not_ JAMES
    Herbert.
    
    Sorry.
    
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
     

    re .21
    
    Pardon me, I may be mistaken, but I don't think that Frank (SF)
    Herbert is James (UK Horror) Herbert's father.

>          <<< Note 354.23 by OASS::MDILLSON "Generic Personal Name" >>>
>
>    re .21
>    
>    Pardon me, I may be mistaken, but I don't think that Frank (SF)
>    Herbert is James (UK Horror) Herbert's father.

	I dunno Mike, all I know is that Frank Herberts son is doing
	some writing now and thought that the 'James' reference was
	him.

	Charlie

Frank Herbert's son's name is Brian. I do not believe James H. is any relation.

Mike J

    Check the Yellow pages under "Herbs"

    It doesn't look like anyone entered anything here in a year  so I'll
    give my 2 centavos of opinion.
    
    I go along with the general opinion of the masses that _Dune_ is
    classic sci-fi.  I've read it twice thru and enjoyed it thoroughly. 
    The scope of the book is tremendous and you can't help but admire  what
    Herbert has written. Though I don't find what he has done truly
    original. Much of the culture of the planet Arrakis, I believe Herbert
    must have gleaned from studying the Muslim religion and Arabic culture. 
    His Fremen remind me of desert Bedouins projected thousands of years
    into the future on another planet.  The Navigators Guild, the Bene
    Gesserit sisterhood, and the culture of Caladan where the Atreides
    family comes from sounds very medievel in context.  The whole book
    sounds like a feudalistic society that is galactic in scope and size.
    If one reads carefully there are many references to Catholicism and
    Oriental philosophy.
    
    I've read all six novels in the Dune series, and again I agree with
    most everyone else that the first one was the best.  It seems to me
    like Herbert was stretching the _Dune_ universe to far after the 3rd or
    4th novel.  The last one was my least favorite.  It was getting tiring
    to read at that point.
    
    ktlam--
    N�N�j\/*

    Seems that nobody has replied to this in a year . Things seem to go in
    cycles in this notes . A few notes a year and all that....
      At the time of reading Chapterhouse Dune for the first time I was a
    little dissapointed, especially with the way Odrade was presented .
    It seemed that she was sooooo different from the rest of the sisterhood
    which barely seemed to have progressed since the days of the Muad'dib.
     However on second reading, some two years later it was really very
    good. It can never be as good as Heretics however. Thats easily the
    best of the series.
     As far as the -1.s comments concerning cultures and religions etc.
    They're pretty accurate but then again you don't need to be a
    sociologist to see that...
                          Nially