T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
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353.1 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Tue Jul 08 1986 13:46 | 21 |
| Re .0:
Mars and the asteroids are surely far enough away to survive attempted
strikes by any of today's weapons, but I think the Moon and the
Earth-Moon Langrange points are also far enough away, even with
improvements in the capabilities of today's weapons. Wouldn't it
take missiles days to reach those points? I think that would be
plenty of time for even a small defense system to take care of the
missiles.
Next, for closer colonies, perhaps in geosynchronous orbit or lower,
how are the effects of weapons different? I think shock waves and
radiation dangers will be drop off much more quickly as distance
from the blast increases in space than on Earth. The big problem
will be EMP wiping out computers, which I am sure colonies will
require to survive for some time to come.
Can anybody else offer some information on this topic?
-- edp
|
353.2 | "throw tacks on the road" | FRSBEE::FARRINGTON | a Nuclear wonderland ! | Wed Jul 09 1986 08:23 | 9 |
| It's interesting to contemplate the "impact" on an enclosure in
a vacuum when its orbit intersects that of a (relatively) small
quantity of, say, ball bearings. Or maybe even a couple of cylinders
of cluster bombs, choke ful' HE bomblets...
And, they're relatively _cheap_ to put there; even geosynchronous
or Lagrange point orbits.
Dwight
|
353.3 | Shock Wave Rider? | ERLANG::FEHSKENS | | Wed Jul 09 1986 15:02 | 13 |
| There are no "shock waves" in a vacuum. There may be a "blast front",
and I would expect its propagation speed to be greater than in an
atmosphere. I would expect the bulk of the effects to be radiation
related, both thermal and ionizing. Strictly speaking this is a
nit, but a "shock wave" is a consequence of something moving through
a medium at greater than the local speed of sound (i.e., speed of
propagation of pressure waves), and an explosion in a vacuum has
to make its own medium. The blast front is not so much a "pressure
wave" as a "density wave". I'm really in over my head at this point.
Does anybody know any facts about explosions in vacuum?
len.
|
353.4 | could it survive on it's own? | STUBBI::REINKE | | Wed Jul 09 1986 15:41 | 5 |
| Assuming that space colonies could be built far enough out to be
safe from attack would they be able to be self-sufficient enough
to survive being cut off from earth? You'd have to have an awful
lot of available resources from somewhere to keep an ecosystem going
and keep people well fed and healthy.
|
353.5 | It All Depends | PROSE::WAJENBERG | | Wed Jul 09 1986 16:11 | 11 |
| If Earth bludgeons itself into insensibility in a few days, the
colony might be able to make supply raids, assuming they had
shuttles or whatnot that could land and take off in hostile or
no-tech territory. Eventually, they could build up to a self-
sustaining ecology.
Or they could start out big enough to be self-sustaining. It depends
on how advanced, entrenched, and numerous these hypothetical colonies
would be when the hypothetical attack comes.
Earl Wajenberg
|
353.6 | It Sure Does! | INK::KALLIS | | Wed Jul 09 1986 17:07 | 17 |
| Re .4, .5:
The deep-space colonies would _have_ to be built for self-sufficiency;
the available energies would require Hohmann orbits that would take
fractional -- or full -- years from launch to arrival. Therefore,
they'd have to have sufficient adaptability to ride out local
emergencies.
On the close-in stuff: a space satatiuon would be more vulnerable
than a lunar colony that could be buried _deep_ within the Moon,
and on the backside, too!.
On EMPs: I doubt they'd be a serious factor for anything designed
to take large solar flares into account.
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
353.7 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Wed Jul 09 1986 17:38 | 16 |
| Re .3:
Something which swells and dies away, as a blast front, is a wave.
And the blast front also qualifies as a "violent pulsating disturbance
or reaction", which makes it a shock wave.
But of all the problems so far, I think the many-small-objects
possibility is the worst one. I've heard it would not be too difficult
to destroy objects in low orbit this way, but how would the difficulty
increase for objects farther away? The increased distance means
less benefit from orbital speed, so the objects can no longer be
placed in an opposing orbit and let to travel on their way; they
must be aimed more carefully.
-- edp
|
353.8 | Blast Fronts and Shock Waves | ERLANG::FEHSKENS | | Fri Jul 11 1986 11:36 | 23 |
| re .7 - this is picking nits on nits, but "violent pulsating
disturbance or reaction" sounds like a sloppy dictionary definition of
shock wave. My DEC-issue dictionary says "A large amplitude compression
wave, such as that produced by an explosion, caused by supersonic
motion of a body in a medium." You can't have a compression wave
in a vacuum. The only medium available is the gas/plasma produced
by the explosion itself, and as I said earlier, I don't know enough
about explosions in vacuo to say whether or not the expanding gasses
could themselves support a shock wave. "Shock wave" has a well
defined technical meaning - the medium can't propagate a compression
wave faster than its local speed of sound, and that's what creates
the "shock". Not all waves are shocks, and "pulsating" and "reaction"
are irrelevant to the definition of a shock wave. A "high amplitude
compression wave" is certainly a "violent disturbance", but not
all violent disturbances are shocks. A blast front is not itself
a shock wave, but it may create one in a suitable medium. Any shock
waves in the explosion-produced medium would have to be behind the
blast front; the blast front can propogate in a vacuum at any speed,
but any shock waves are limited to propogating at the local speed
of sound.
len.
|
353.9 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Fri Jul 11 1986 16:18 | 12 |
| Re .8:
I've compared Webster's to American Heritage in the JOYOFLEX file.
The people producing American Heritage make too many mistakes.
Also, do not forget that one subset of people (physicists and other
technical people) using a phrase with a particular meaning does not
erase the _other_ meanings the phrase has. Webster's says people
use the word that way, so I will also use it that way.
-- edp
|
353.10 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Mon Jul 14 1986 13:59 | 21 |
| Here is some thinking to support the lessened effects of a blast in
space. When a bomb is exploded, I am guessing that parts of the bomb
are given a great deal of kinetic energy and hurled outward, perhaps as
gases. In an atmosphere, the gases hit molecules of air and impart
their energy to the air. The result is a sudden transfer of energy to
the air when then travels away from the explosion at the speed of
sound. The thickness of the region, and hence "sharpness" comes
from the amount of time it takes for the gases to transfer their
energy to air. That is, if the transfer is sudden, the thickness
of the spreading sphere will be small, and the wave will hit anything
it runs into suddenly. If the transfer were slower, the wave would
be felt more gradually.
In space, there is no such transfer. The particles thrown away from
the explosion travel at their own speeds, rather than the speed of
sound. Thus the effects do not arrive at objects simultaneously, and
the farther the particles travel, the more spread apart they become,
and the less effect they have.
-- edp
|
353.11 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Mon Jul 14 1986 14:03 | 10 |
| Along the same lines, would debris placed in orbit spread apart enough
to lessen the danger? Anybody putting debris in orbit would have to
either cause the pieces to separate (perhaps with a gentle "explosion")
to spread them far apart enough to pose a threat, and the spreading
would continue too far, or put the pieces in orbit individually to
prevent continued spreading. Even then, the different orbits might
separate the debris.
-- edp
|
353.12 | Can a 16 pounder down a B-52? | JON::MAIEWSKI | | Mon Jul 14 1986 17:51 | 15 |
| RE .0
The problem with space colonies surviving a general war is the
same as the problem with the SDI. Although the current technology
may or may not be able to distroy a large space station, if the
state of the art of space flight were advanced enough to build and
support space colonies it would be advanced enough to attack and
distroy space colonies.
It would take many years (probably decades) and many billions
of dollars for either the U.S., the U.S.S.R., or ESA to build a
space colony. There would be plenty of time for others to come up
with a method, at far less cost, to blow it up.
George
|
353.13 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Mon Jul 14 1986 18:25 | 13 |
| Re .12:
You seem to take as a premise that if we can build something, we can
destroy it more easily than building it. That premise is not generally
true. I doubt it was even considered true before nuclear bombs were
created. Colonies in space could easily be like colonies several
hundred years ago, too far away to attack directly. How would you
destroy a colony you couldn't even find? What if the colony is
far enough away that your missiles take days to get there, giving
defense systems plenty of time to take care of them?
-- edp
|
353.14 | No place to hide. | JON::MAIEWSKI | | Mon Jul 14 1986 18:58 | 25 |
| If my memory serves me correctly, the English, French, and Spanish
had many a fight in the colonies. At one time there was a French
colony in the south. They attempted to attack the Spanish and the
fleet got caught in a storm. The Spanish mopped up the remaining
French forces and took over what is now the southern part of
Florida. The French colony was distroyed.
I don't think that the space colony would be very hard to find. It is
much easier to track large items in space now than it was to find small
groups of people in the West back in the 1600's. Not to mention
the fact that the location of the colony would probably be a well
known fact. Espcially if it was put there by NASA, the ESA, or both.
As for distroying the space platform, their ABM system would suffer
the same problem that ABM systems suffer now. With out a treaty
like SALT II, an enemy could build many more war heads than the
space colony could expect to intercept. They could also deploy
decoys to confuse the Space Colony ABM system. All of this would
be much cheaper than the cost of the Colony.
I guess that I still feel that negociation is the best way to prevent
a battle anywhere.
George
|
353.15 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Tue Jul 15 1986 10:11 | 24 |
| Re .14:
A space colony could easily be made difficult to find, once it leaves
the vicinity of Earth. The Solar System, or the universe for that
matter, is a big place.
Next, the limitations of Earthly anti-missile systems won't apply in
space. Earthly systems need to find a target, make a decision about
it, and deal with it in as little as thirty seconds. That imposes a
strict limitation on the number of missiles each component of the
defense system can handle -- it's got to get all the missiles in the
few minutes they are launched. When that time is expanded to hours or
days, the capacity of the defense system is increased correspondingly,
but the capacity of offensive weapons remains the same or decreases.
We also might expect that space colonies could easily be as far
from each other as from their origins, unlike colonies a few hundred
years ago.
I don't think any amount of negotiation will ever eliminate bad
people, stupid people, or accidents.
-- edp
|
353.16 | could they survive even if safe? | STUBBI::REINKE | | Tue Jul 15 1986 10:40 | 14 |
| The emphasis of this note has been on the question of whether a
space colony would be safe from a missile attack. There is a far more
powerful weapon that has destroyed many cities - Hunger. I find
it unlikely that any space colony would be able to survive a long
period of time cut off entirely from supplies from the earth. The
logistics of setting up a truely self sustaining ecology in space
are incredible. (and do we really understand our earthly ecology
and our own physiology well enough to be sure we had provided every-
thing we would need to survive?) Could mines on the moon or asteriods
really provide adequate raw materials to grow plants, manufacture
medicines, and fabricate repair materials? (Especially given a state
of war?) The long terms effects of radiation and weightlessness
are additional problems. Could space colonists raise children
succesfully to agument their numbers?
|
353.17 | Change of Pace | INK::KALLIS | | Tue Jul 15 1986 11:07 | 18 |
| Re several above:
On missile attacks, the environment of space is _harsh_. Building
something that in the case of a colony on an airless body would
have to withstand natural radiation, bombardment by meteors, and
temperature extremes, some manmade augmentations mightn't make that
much difference.
Re .16:
This depends upon how you mean "colony." By all previous discussions
I've read on the subject, space colonies were supposed to be self-
sufficient. Balanced ecosystems. If you destroy a colony before
it's _established_, that's one thing. A fully established colony
is something else altogether.
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
353.18 | Probably, though not comfortably. | PROSE::WAJENBERG | | Tue Jul 15 1986 11:10 | 14 |
| As I recall the plans, space colonies are usually supposed to be
pretty self-supporting in the first place; the logistics of supplying
a permanent colony might be even worse than those of making it
self-sustaining.
I think we already know how to grow food and recycle water and air,
though it might be difficult to sustain the balancing act indefinitely.
(We DON'T know all the complications that might arise. But then,
we never do.) Radiation is a problem, but we can get the gravity by
spinning.
Earl Wajenberg
Earl Wajenberg
|
353.19 | 2� worth | MYCRFT::PARODI | John H. Parodi | Tue Jul 15 1986 11:22 | 27 |
|
Whether or not a colony survives would depend on a couple of things.
Does it get attacked before or after the nuclear exchange on Earth?
If before, then my guess is that it would be destroyed, even if buried
deep in the moon as Steve suggested. I really do think that anything
that can be found can be destroyed -- all you need is a big enough
H-bomb. Intercepting one probably wouldn't be easy, either; to attack
a space colony, the missile need not boost all the way to the target.
It could be "black" in the visible and radar frequencies and thus just
sidle up to the colony (or drop quietly onto the moon, pretending to
be a meteor) before it goes kablooie. And even if the colony could
stop a few, defensive systems can be overwhelmed by numbers.
On the other hand, would flatlanders who just survived a nuclear war
be interested in a space colony? Only if they perceived the colony
as a threat. (They might also hope that the colony could provide
succor but given the valid questions about the colony's self-sufficiency,
this seems unlikely.) In this case, whether a colony in free-fall
would depend on the technical capabilities of the survivors.
Unless the colony can be moved (isn't this very unlikely?), and is
willing to maintain silence in the electromagnetic spectrum, it can
be found. Again, if it can be found, and *if* the survivors on earth
can reach orbit with an H-bomb, the colony can be destroyed.
JP
|
353.20 | the first ones won't be self-sufficient | STUBBI::REINKE | | Tue Jul 15 1986 12:20 | 17 |
| re .17
The assumption that a space colony will be fully self sufficient
once it is set up is exactly what I am questioning. This is a major
assumption and not a valid one in terms of the near future. I am
sure that the first space colonies we set up will not be self
sufficient and it will be many, many years in the future before
they are. The first American colonies imported pottery, metals,
livestock, plants etc. to give a few examples, for many many years
before being able to rely on their own resources and they were
in a place where raw materials were readily available (at least
in comparision). So if we are talking about the ability of space
colonies in the near future (i.e. the next 100 years or so) to
survive a war then supplies will be a very major problem. (One
reason for the failure of the roanoke colony was the failure of
the supply lines.) To state that they will be self-sufficient by
definition is really begging the question.
|
353.21 | Who needs an H-Bomb | JON::MAIEWSKI | | Tue Jul 15 1986 12:33 | 34 |
| Just a few thoughts on the timming of things. It seems to take
NASA and the U.S. Congress about 15 years to fund and build large
space systems. The best timming for building a space colony might
be something like the following:
1965 First Saturn V
1980 STS
1995 First Space Staion
2010 First Deep Space Station
2025 First Large Deep Space Base
2040 First Dependent Space Colony
2065 First self sufficient Space Colony
If it was build by NASA its location could be found in Aviation
Week and Space Technology Mag. as well as many other sources. It
would cost trillions of dollars which would come from the goverment
justified by using it for a combination of industry, defense, and
science. Everyone would know where it was because everyone would
want to use it for something.
If SDI goes forward, the eastern block nations will probably also
come up with a space based laser system. Its development will probably
go as follows
2015 SDI and Eastern Block counterpart become active.
2030 2nd generation laser system
2045 3rd generation laser system with deep space capability.
If a war starts in the 2060 to 2100 time frame it is unlikely
that the space colony will be attacked from earth with a technology
that is 100 years old. It would probably be attacked from a near by
3rd generation space based defense systems.
George
|
353.22 | Buy British Or Else | PROSE::WAJENBERG | | Tue Jul 15 1986 12:56 | 10 |
| Re .20
The New World colonies may have been slower to become self-sufficient
that necessary. The imperial powers practiced a policy called
"mercantilism," under which the colonies were FORBIDDEN to produce
for themselves those items the mother country wished to sell them.
(The colonies paid for the processed good in raw materials.) This
was part of the motive behind the Boston Tea Party.
Earl Wajenberg
|
353.23 | there are still other issues than just missles | STUBBI::REINKE | | Tue Jul 15 1986 13:46 | 9 |
| re .22
Agreed - but they also didn't have the technology at first at least
to make a lot of things even tho they had the raw materials. I remember
at Plymouth plantation for example the cups all had multiple handles
to allow them to be passed more easily without dropping because
they did not have pottery works and new cups had to come from England.
The space colony would have the technology but lack adequate raw materials.
Another issue that would affect survival would be psychological
- the isoloation of a small group completely cut off from home.
|
353.24 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Tue Jul 15 1986 13:58 | 54 |
| Re self-sufficiency:
Promising experiments in creating closed ecological systems have been
performed on Earth. The principal problem with creating closed systems
in space is the small size of current vehicles.
Re .19:
I think you underestimate the protection afforded by dirt and rock.
Something buried in the Moon or even the Earth would not be easy to
destroy. I don't think the energy of nuclear weapons we have now or
can foresee building are even a fraction of the energy in the meteors
that must have formed craters in the Moon. How deep are those craters?
I doubt surviving a nuclear blast would require digging as deep as the
craters are.
Next, intercepting missiles is very different in space. Sure, the
missile can be black, but it's also not going to find its target by
following terrain. Once it gets far from Earth, it will not be able to
navigate accurately enough to hit the colony unless it makes use of an
active system, such as radar.
The "overwhelm with numbers" argument doesn't hold in space, because
the Earthly advantages of offense are weakened while the advantages of
defense are increased. Would missiles be easier to find when not
firing engines than they are near Earth because the residual heat would
be more visible against space than against the Earth as background?
Does anybody know how far off Voyager (or was it something else) was
when it got to the vicinity of Jupiter?
Re .21:
Let's take the assumption the colony will be built with the purpose of
survival. Whether it's built by the government or a private group,
they are not going to publish its location.
> It would probably be attacked from a [nearby] 3rd generation space
> based defense systems.
I don't think you realize how big space is. There is no way we could
make a system so that any colony would be near a part of the system!
Re .23:
Maybe they couldn't make fine pottery and hence took care with it, but
surely they could make cups without unneeded elegance. A kiln isn't
exactly high technology.
-- edp
|
353.25 | Technology improvements | FRSBEE::FARRINGTON | a Nuclear wonderland ! | Tue Jul 15 1986 14:01 | 12 |
| 10,000 is not a small group.
Raw materials is not a problem, given that a colonization and
exploitation program is in progress. Postulating that, asteriod
mining as well as Luna mining would suffice for virtually all
material needs.
Realize, too, that some extrapolation must be made in the arguments
concerning survivability. That has not been done in a number of
the arguments (somewhat) against the colonies' survival.
Dwight
|
353.26 | promising experiments can't be lived in | STUBBI::REINKE | | Tue Jul 15 1986 14:23 | 21 |
| ans to .24
Using Plymouth again for an example - even tho space colonies
won't have the same problems there will be similar ones - they had
to rely on England for a long time for simple pottery, not fine
china, because they had so much else to do they didn't have the
resources to set up kilns. I still feel that it is overly optimistic
to assume that everything needed will be available without having
to rely on earth.
I didn't get to finish my last note about psychological problems,
even a group of 10,000 people would be under severe stress if cut
off from earth for long periods of time due to war. Also saying
that we have promising research on closed ecologies, or space
medicine still doesn't promise that there won't be totally unforseen
problems that could kill an isolated colony in situ. Our knowledge
of biology/ecology is simply not that advanced yet.
However, if no one else wants to discuss the other problems relating
to survival of a space colony during war, I will bow out gracefully
and let the rest of you continue your discussion of missles, and
related subjects.
|
353.27 | hypothetical battles can't be lost or won | PROSE::WAJENBERG | | Tue Jul 15 1986 14:46 | 12 |
| Re .26
ANY kind of space colony, other than the trivial case of a longish
mission in a Soyuz or a shuttle, is currently an unrealized dream.
A colony's viability depends on which colony you dream up. It is
useless todebate whether or not "a colony" could survive isolation
or attack or a high inflation rate until you specify the nature
of the (imaginary) colony. Then you go on to specify the nature
of the threat, and maybe discuss whether the threat and the colony
are compatible possibilities.
Earl Wajenberg
|
353.28 | | STUBBI::REINKE | | Tue Jul 15 1986 15:00 | 8 |
| .26
Agreed. However, the subject of this topic was survial
of a space colony during a war. Most of the discussion centered
around missle hits etc. etc. I was attempting, rather unsuccessfully,
to expand the discusion to other problems that would occur in the
case of a space colony in a time of war. As I said in .26 if people
arn't interested in talking about that aspect I'll stop bringing
it up.
|
353.29 | Why build such a mouse trap? | JON::MAIEWSKI | | Tue Jul 15 1986 15:05 | 24 |
| I agree with .26. I think that we are discussing different types
of colonies. I am thinking of the type of colony that might be
built by NASA and ESA with money from the U.S. and European
goverments based on the direction that they are taking today.
The trend seems to be toward stations that can be used for
industrial and scientific work built for as little money as is
possible (still a lot of money). Plans and locations are always
public and plans are for many nations to visit and work there
on a regular basis.
To get a return on the investment in both the industrial and
scientific sense there would have to be many trips to and from
the station with a lot of exchange of personal, information,
and supplies. Even if it were self sufficient, you would still
want to take the latest widgit built on Earth (by a TRW type
company) to improve the power supply, do research, build better
materials, etc.
I think that this would be the type of space platform that would
benifit most people and it is the most likely to get the money
to build. Any other ideas on the subject?
George
|
353.30 | Knowledge self-sufficiency | JEREMY::REDFORD | Just this guy, you know? | Tue Jul 15 1986 15:08 | 40 |
|
re: self-sufficiency of colonies
Actually, hardly any part of the Earth is self-sufficient in the
sense that it produces all its own food and own industrial products.
If, say, Massachusetts had to feed and clothe itself, its standard of
living would drop sharply, probably to something like that of the 1600s.
Massachusetts survives by trading its specialties with those of its neighbors,
and so would space colonies. They would sell solar power satellites
in return for VAXes (the architecture of '00s!), rather than trying
to build them by themselves.
Even if a space colony is self-sufficient in food, it cannot be
self-sufficient in technical expertise. It takes millions of
specialists to run a modern industrial economy. Think of all the
people needed to just build VAXes, and that's just one component of one
system. In fact, no one country contains all the knowledge about all
the machinery it uses. No one, for instance, in the United States
knows how to economically build video cassette recorders. A space
colony of ten thousand people could not possibly contain the entire
range of skills.
This would be a big problem for colonies in case of war. If the
colony drops below a certain technological level, it is doomed. Now
they are getting problems in the mirror control system. The VAX that
runs it gets access violations and burns part of the ring. Who can
they call? Maynard has been atomized. They may have all the manuals
on microfilm, but they don't have enough spare boards to swap in.
Even if they can patch VMS or fix broken etch on boards, they won't
be able to make their own chips. On Earth you can live without
computers, but not in space.
The only way that the colonies would be able to survive is if there
is a major space-going civilization, meaning millions of
people living off the earth. Only then would there a wide enough range
of expertise to keep things running. Space colonies need more than
just food and air to work - they need knowledge, and that would be in
short supply after a war.
/jlr
|
353.31 | tripwires for defense | JEREMY::REDFORD | Just this guy, you know? | Tue Jul 15 1986 15:10 | 22 |
| re: defensibility of colonies
A previous note raised the problem of how to detect an incoming missile.
The missile could be radar absorbent, painted black, and kept cool to avoid
radiating infrared. One thing you could do is put a shell of fine wires
a hundred km out from the colony. As the missile came in it would break
a wire and get zapped by the laser defenses. If the wires were spaced
every 10 cm, and were 10 um across, you'd need about 1000 tonnes of aluminum
to build a shell with a 100 km radius. There would have to be
openings in the shell to let normal traffic in and out, but those
could be guarded in other ways. A 10 um wire won't conduct much current,
so every few meters there would be an alarm sensor chip that would
connect by radio with a central controller. A hundred km should give the lasers
plenty of time to burn up a missile, especially since the lasers can draw
upon the gigawatts of power available to a space colony.
/jlr
PS A nuclear attack upon a space colony is described in one of the Rosinante
books by Alex Gilliand (sp?). I can't remember which one, since
they're all part of the same story. They all have "Rosinante" in the title.
Funny, cynical, and very techie. Recommended.
|
353.32 | | MYCRFT::PARODI | John H. Parodi | Tue Jul 15 1986 15:15 | 19 |
|
Re: .28
I'm glad you brought these issues up. I'm not sure what you mean by
"self-sufficiency," though. What I mean by this term is the capability
to live long enough to worry about things like deficiencies of trace
elements in the diet. That is, whether the people in the colony continue
to breathe for an indefinite time. I don't think that a discussion of
imported pottery (or the 21st Century analog of imported pottery) has
anything to do with self-sufficiency.
I grant you that loneliness, lack of civilized amenities, and a small gene
pool all might have a bearing on the survival of the colony. But suppose
for a second that the situation in the colony is a great deal better than
the situation on Earth. I don't think that's unlikely in the event of a
nuclear war. Does it change things if the heretofore "starving" colony is
now the most comfortable spot in the solar system?
JP
|
353.33 | food, air, water & technology? | STUBBI::REINKE | | Tue Jul 15 1986 15:42 | 9 |
| What I originally meant by "self-sufficiency" was exactly what
you mean - availablity of necessary minerals, air, etc. to go on
living. Previous replies were arguing that the colonies would be
completely self-sufficient and my examples of the American colonies
were to point out that in a much friendlier environment
self-sufficiency was not easily come by. I also agree that knowledge
and new technology would be crucial to the survival of any space
colony. There is an awful lot more than just adquate missle defenses
needed to assure a space colony's survival.
|
353.34 | And Then Some | INK::KALLIS | | Tue Jul 15 1986 17:37 | 30 |
| Hmm ...
Herre we are selling CDROM products; not even counting improvements,
I can see that an awful lot of sheer _knowledge_ can be imported
to any colony with little effort. That takes care of _part_ of
the "expertise" angle.
Let's also define the following:
A COLONY is something that's reasonably self-sufficient.
A BASE or OUTPOST is that thing we have befiore a colony takes place.
A base would have it tough.
A colony would have it easier.
On the psychological aspects. Recall that _very_ small craft, from
the time of Columbus, spent a lot of time away from other humans.
Some small towns are _very_ xenophobic and asre virtually
self-sufficient.
I can't say it'd be easy, but it would be workable for a colony
to survive.
Finally, the more the merrier: the more colonies there are throughout
the solar system, the greater chance _each_ would survive.
Is there any better reason to colonize the solar system?
Steve Kallis, Jr.
|
353.35 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Tue Jul 15 1986 18:25 | 38 |
| Re .26:
> I didn't get to finish my last note about psychological problems,
> even a group of 10,000 people would be under severe stress if cut off
> from earth for long periods of time due to war.
I don't buy that at all; groups of under 10,000 people must represent
the bulk of human history. Even today, there are people who live in
smaller groups, not all of whom receive television or radio broadcasts
(which, of course, could be simulated if necessary, :-)).
> . . . space medicine still doesn't promise that there won't be
> totally unforseen problems that could kill an isolated colony in situ.
That sounds like something out of a television space opera. It's
entirely fabricated and very unlikely.
Re .30:
Most parts of the Earth today are not self-sufficient because they CAN
interact with other people, not because they MUST. Pick any island in
the middle of the ocean, and consider what it was like not too many
years ago. Even the supplies the colonials "depended" on that have
been mentioned in this topic amount to luxuries more than necessities.
The only lack of self-sufficiency in a space colony which cannot clearly
be dealt with by proper design and initial supplying is the
high-technology equipment that might be necessary. But then the colony
doesn't need VAX computers or Crays. It won't be doing things like
landing on planets, so it won't need high-speed computers. So what are
the _absolute_ high-technology requirements of a colony? (Hmm, that's
a trick question. People on Earth lived in space for millenia without
computers, so the absolute requirements are zero.) What are the
requirements of a colony we could build in the next hundred years?
-- edp
|
353.36 | HOME IS WHERE THE COLONY IS. | EDEN::KLAES | Time to make the doughnuts! | Tue Jul 15 1986 19:26 | 10 |
| Also keep in mind that the later generations of space colonists
who have grown up only, say, on the space colony, will certainly
NOT miss Earth, as I am certain they will not consider it home.
They might miss certain PRODUCTS from Earth that they could
no longer get in the event of a nuclear war, but they would not
miss Earth itself in the sense of a nostalgic homeland - the space
colony would be their homeland.
Larry
|
353.37 | complex ecosystems are not space opera | STUBBI::REINKE | | Tue Jul 15 1986 22:59 | 72 |
| re .34
Yes people have survived in small groups and on small boats but
their experiences haven't always been trouble free. (Columbus had
a mutine for example and there are certainly some small towns that
aren't shining examples of mental health.) I didn't meant that
small size would keep a colony from surviving in normal situations
- but it is a problem that should be considered in time of WAR.
Even ten thousand is not - as was mentioned earlier - a sufficiently
large popultion to provide all the speciaists needed to run a techno-
logical society. Further more the isolation and the relative fragility
(compaired to the earth) of a space colony would make it more
susceptable especially in wartime. What if two groups of colonists
from two opposing nations on earth decide to start fighting? Or
if someone overcome with grief at events on earth sabotoges a crucial
piece of equipment? Both are as potentially lethal as a missle strike
and should be considered when planning for or discussing survival.
As to better reasons than survival of the human race for founding
a space colony, hopefully it would also be a door way to the stars
or a way to expand the human frontier - which is really saying the
same thing. (Personally I'd like to see them founded so I could
go - but I doubt that it will occur in my lifetime.)
re .35
As far as problems even with 10,000 people in WAR time again, I've
discussed that above. Any person planning for the survival of
a space colony under any circumstances, but especially under war
conditions, has to factor in human psychology, and our argumentative
nature (see any notes file) this is a potential threat to the survival
of any colony and should be as much a consideration as how many
tons of dirt the colony needs to be buried under as a radiation
shield.
As to your quoteing my statement that promising research doesn't
mean there won't be any problems as being space operaish and fantasy
- how much biology and ecology have you studied? You come over
as very uninformed in this area.
Ecology, for example, is still a relatively new science. I can't
imagine any ecologist being confident that we know all about our
earthly ecosystem - or even enough to set up a problem free self-
sustaining ecosystem 10,000's of miles from earth. We have had
many disasters of the sort you call fantasy right here on earth
due to our lack of knowledge of the naturally occuring systems.
It is rather, fantasy and space operish to imagine we are so well
versed in the mysteries of the ecosystems that we can confidently
set up a problem free working system in space and expect it to
sustain life when cut off in a WAR time situation. This applies not only
our current level of knowledge but for a good while in the future
as well. The more we have learned about ecosystems the more we learn
that we don't know.
The same is true of space medicine. We have done a lot of reasearch
in this area - but it is an even newer area of science. To assume
that there will be no surprises, no unexpected and potentially lethal
problems over a long terms basis or when cut off from supplies
is at best shortsighted and at worse foolish and ignorant. (For
an example see ABCs in Space in ....... in one of the three A-- SF
mags this month).
Any space colony would be highly dependant on very sophisticated
technology. I would bet - as an example - that the type of computer
support needed to run an air and recycling system balance
an ecology, to run robotised mines, to maintian orbit and spin,
and otherwise provide for the needs of the colonists would approach
if not surpass the complexity needed to land a space craft (which
at least is realtively standarized.) and is every bit as dependant
on outside supplies for complex repair parts and other materials
that it would not be easily manufactured in a space colony environment,
and for new technology.
|
353.38 | Who would build such a thing? | JON::MAIEWSKI | | Wed Jul 16 1986 12:03 | 27 |
| There is also a question of "What could someone build?" vs. "What
would someone build?". For a space colony to overcome all of the
problems of living in a self_sufficient way the independence would
have to be an original design goal. I can't think who would want
to go to the expense of building such a station.
For the same price you could have a network of dependent space
stations and space bases that would advance technology in the areas
of science and industry and provide the steping stone to more space
research. This is the type of station being planed by NASA, ESA,
and the U.S.S.R.
It is hard enough to get money for things which advance the state
of space technology and interact with the scientific and industrial
world. I can't imagine the head of NASA going to congress and asking
for billions of dollars to send 10,000 people off to hide among
the stars. He is currently having problems getting money to build
a single space shuttle which is known to be a benifit to science,
industry, and defense.
Would those of you that are proposing the station built from the
ground up for the purpose of playing hide and seek indicate where
you think the money would come from, when it would be built, and
who would build it?
George
|
353.39 | No margins in space | MORIAH::REDFORD | Just this guy, you know? | Wed Jul 16 1986 12:45 | 41 |
| re: .38
The goals of the initial colonies are all going to be Earth-related.
Only after a number of colonies are going concerns will there be
enough slack to permit the spacers to build colonies for themselves.
re: general survivability
What makes a space colony's survival really problematic is that there
is very little margin for error in space. One small failure can kill
everybody. Look at the shuttle: one bad seal in a joint and all the
astronauts are dead, the craft is destroyed, and the entire program is
in trouble. Life on earth is a lot more tolerant of error. If all
your machinery fails, you can still go out into the woods and hunt
squirrels. Maybe a lot of people die, but some will carry on.
This would be a reason to build a lot of little colonies rather than a
few big ones. Point failures kill fewer people that way. If an
ecological disaster hits one colony, the others can learn from it. If
a key piece of machinery breaks in one, the survivors can be evacuated
and the rest of the equipment salvaged for use by the others. It's
harder to produce gravity in small colonies, but the safety factors of
redundancy might make it worth the cost.
re: .33 (?) shipping expertise on CDROMs
The trouble is that most expertise is not written down. This is a
constant problem in engineering projects. A lot of key information
only exists in the designers' heads, and if one of those people leaves
the company, you're in trouble. For example, a couple of years ago we
found that we were running low on LSI-11 chips. We only needed them
for 780 consoles, but no one wanted to redesign the console that close
to the end of the 780's life. We looked in the archives for how to
make LSI-11s, and found that the manufacturing process for the chip
had been lost. The process was so obsolete that no one had bothered
to document it. We were lucky we still had the masks. I think the
process recipe was found eventually, but it took a lot of digging. And
we were the ones who built it to begin with! Even the DEC engineering
archives don't contain all the info on how to build DEC products.
/jlr
|
353.40 | | BEING::POSTPISCHIL | Always mount a scratch monkey. | Wed Jul 16 1986 13:53 | 46 |
| Re .37:
I still don't think much of your suggested scenarios. What if two
groups of people in a town on Earth decided to start fighting? Or if
somebody poisoned the water supply? Both could destroy the town.
History just doesn't bear out your suggestions. Most towns survive.
The science of ecology may be a relatively new science, but ecology
itself isn't new at all. Ecosystems are flexible. The colony is not
going to have floods, tornadoes, or earthquakes, and that's pretty much
all in the way of disasters that come from ecology.
This goes for biology too. New diseases aren't going to spring up just
because people are in space. Remember, we are in space now. Again,
history shows many examples of small groups surviving, in spite of
diseases of the past. Once people are protected from space -- i.e.,
protected from cold, low pressure, and radiation and given gravity --
the medical problems of the colony will be the same medical problems of
any small town.
> I would bet - as an example - that the type of computer support
> needed to run an air and recycling system balance an ecology, . . .
I bet it wouldn't. Remember ecological systems are flexible. They HAD
to be; nobody was nurturing them before we got here. They came into
existence just from energy and raw materials -- that's a RELIABLE
system, one that comes into existence "on its own" and grows and
adjusts itself. There's a point where the ecology is self-adjusting.
Not enough plants? That means the animals are producing more carbon
dioxide and other things useful to plants which makes it easier for
plants to survive and reproduce, causing there to be more plants. And
the closer a colony is to that point, the easier it will be to maintain
the ecology. Second-to-second calculations will not be needed. There
aren't going to be any sudden conversions of oxygen to carbon dioxide
which require immediate action.
> . . . to run robotised mines, to [maintain] orbit and spin, . . .
If you do much mining on a spinning colony, you're going to kill
yourself.
Computers are not required to maintain orbit or spin.
-- edp
|
353.41 | Tripwires won't work | MORIAH::REDFORD | Just this guy, you know? | Thu Jul 17 1986 11:10 | 10 |
| re: .31 (using a shell of fine wires around the colony as a missile detector)
Even though I suggested it, this is actually not a good idea. All
the offense has to do is sidle up to the alarm wires and blow a 10 km hole
in the shell with a nuke. Then all the other missiles can pour in without
fear of detection. It just goes to show how easy counter-measures are
against SDI schemes. A much better defense would be to bury the
colony deep inside the Moon or an asteroid.
/jlr
|
353.42 | ecological stability | MORIAH::REDFORD | Just this guy, you know? | Thu Jul 17 1986 11:19 | 10 |
| re: .40 (a robust ecology in a colony isn't that hard)
Although the designers of a colony will try to make its ecology as
robust as possible, there is always the potential for mistakes. Even
the Earth's ecology is not all that stable - look at the Ice Ages.
They should be able to work it out eventually, but it will take a lot
of space experience. And even then things won't be fool-proof -
after five thousand years of sea-faring our ships still sink.
/jlr (who has trouble keeping his apartment habitable)
|
353.43 | | TROLL::RUDMAN | | Thu Jul 17 1986 19:58 | 7 |
| RE .41: Think the colony will wonder about the 10 km hole; maybe
suspect there's someone out there?
RE .42: There are some small craft fabricated from bouyant material.
The manufacturers did not worry about 'planned obsolesence'.
Don
|
353.44 | | JEREMY::REDFORD | Just this guy, you know? | Sat Jul 19 1986 04:45 | 11 |
| re:.43
> RE .41: Think the colony will wonder about the 10 km hole; maybe
> suspect there's someone out there?
The other missiles attack as soon as the first one blows a hole in
the alarm shell. They are also painted black, radar-absorbent etc,
ninja nukes, so to speak. The colony lasers can't cover the whole of
the ten km gap, so the second wave of missiles can slip in.
/jlr
|
353.45 | He who controls the high ground... | WIND::WAY | I don't think we're in Kansas anymore | Wed Jul 23 1986 17:00 | 25 |
| No one so far has really mentioned any military strategy. I'm no
expert, but military people usually feel more comforatable on the
high ground, and for the most part space is high ground.
So I doubt if any colonization effort wouldn't at least have some
military involvement. This leads me to believe that there could
be several scenarios:
- Colonies are built simultaneously by several factions.....
- One "nation" gets "ahead" of another by a large margin. This
would probably result in heavy duty espionage efforts by the
nation that is behind (i.e. getting there people on the INSIDE
should they be needed....)
I would like to believe that space could be a wonderful place where
boundries are forgotten, but that is hard to believe. It is
entirely possible that a "congolmerate" of space people would view
themselves as "outside" a war on earth.
In view of one and two above, I think that the war would somehow
be propagated to the colony (assuming that the colony is in close
proximity to earth....
For whatever it is worth....Frank
|
353.46 | Books on the Subject | LEIA::SWONGER | | Wed Jul 23 1986 17:55 | 12 |
| A very good set of books on the whole space colony topic is _Kinsman_
and _Millenium_ by Ben Bova. They are about a man, Chester Kinsman,
who is in the Air Force's Space Shuttle program and is the first
person to kill someone in space. The books are very interesting,
especially because they were written (I believe) in the late 60's
or early 70's, and talk very convincingly of space shuttles, astronauts
working on satellites much like the rescue mission of last year,
"Star Wars" defense systems, and a host of other topics. Unfortunately,
I don't know who if anyone is printing them because I read my brother's
Sci Fi Book club copies.
Roy
|
353.47 | more books (sf) | FRSBEE::FARRINGTON | a Nuclear wonderland ! | Thu Jul 24 1986 11:31 | 16 |
| Millenium should be available at B.Dalton; the other, maybe.
Mack Reynolds also has a series (loosely related) dealing with
orbital habitats.
This comment is a little late but, a lot of the arguments for
and against survivability are addressed/answered in a number
of the works (learned papers and speculative books) on the
topic of orbital habitats. Also, Sir I. Newton, with the
later colloboration of economists, have given some indication
of the feasibility of attacking objects in high orbits. Of
course, if you are willing to stretch you time line out a
little, postulate habitats in non-Earth orbits. Real difficult
to hit...
Dwight
|
353.48 | Dallas McCord Reynolds | TROLL::RUDMAN | | Fri Jul 25 1986 01:03 | 7 |
| I didn't find KINSMAN all that exciting. MILLENIUM is still sitting
on my shelf.
I believe Reynolds "orbital habitats" stories are the "Rex Bader"
series. 5 books so far, I think.
Don
|
353.49 | a good book... | YODA::BARANSKI | Life is reconciling contradictions. | Sat Jul 26 1986 01:04 | 5 |
| There is a good story about WW3 breaking out, and the US and Soviet space
stations survival, including a foray back to the surface for needed supplies,
called EARTHWRECK, by ?N Scottia?
Jim.
|
353.50 | 'Earthwreck' author? | STKTSC::LITBY | This is, of course, impossible... | Sat Jul 26 1986 07:32 | 1 |
| Might that be Thomas N. Scortia...?
|
353.51 | yep... | YODA::BARANSKI | Life is reconciling contradictions. | Sat Jul 26 1986 23:01 | 0 |
353.52 | Go ahead, knock it down!! | 34837::EATOND | Dan Eaton | Thu Aug 28 1986 23:52 | 28 |
| Just for the sake of an argument..... Let's suppose that I have
my medium size space station sitting up in orbit and you want to
knock it out of the sky. The station itself is highly reflective.
Miles ahead and miles behind of the station I keep junk fields in
orbit with me. Mixed in with the junk are a couple of look out
satalites that keep an eye on the junk to make sure nothing passes
thru undetected. I also have a radar system to let me know if anything
unexpected is coming. Just in case I do detect an unwelcome visitor
I flip the switch that turns on the Phallax(sp?) missle screen that's
used on some of the ships in todays navy (Modified to work in a
vacuum of course). I do keep an eye on things below so if you launch
against me I might just find out about it. I don't keep anything
high tech like nuke bombs on board but I do have a couple of rather
large rocks sitting over in the junk fields. If I catch you I drop
one on your launch site.
Now, how do you go about getting rid of me? A big missle attack
with lots of decoys might get thru. I think I could probably do
more in that area though. Other than the station's reflectivity
I haven't given much though to energy weapons. Assuming an attack
from the earth's surface, would they be effective at that range?
I tried to use low tech solutions to keep myself in orbit. Anybody
got other ideas? The Phallax(Sp?), if you haven't heard of it, is
a ship based missle defence system based on a radar controlled
Gatling(Sp) gun. When it detects an incomming missle, it basically
puts a wall of lead between the ship and the missle.
Dan Eaton
|
353.53 | war is peace | CACHE::MARSHALL | beware the fractal dragon | Fri Aug 29 1986 10:07 | 14 |
| for every weapon there's a defense, for every defense there is a
counter-measure...
round and round it goes...
weapons (offensive OR defensive) will never put an end to war, without
putting an end to man.
/
( ___
) ///
/
|
353.54 | true... | OLIVER::OSBORNE | Blade Walker | Fri Aug 29 1986 15:08 | 10 |
| re: .53
> round and round it goes...
> weapons (offensive OR defensive) will never put an end to war, without
> putting an end to man.
Well said.
JO
|
353.55 | Not QUITE right. | DSSDEV::WALSH | Chris Walsh | Fri Aug 29 1986 16:56 | 10 |
| Well said, but incorrect.
Putting an end to man would not end war. It would merely end OUR wars.
Until a form of life develops that does not compete with other beings and
itself for resources, there will be war.
Intelligence and toolmaking merely changes the scale of the conflict.
- Chris
|
353.56 | War is NOT intrinsic | JEREMY::REDFORD | DREADCO staff researcher | Sat Aug 30 1986 05:13 | 25 |
| < Note 353.55 by DSSDEV::WALSH "Chris Walsh" >
>Until a form of life develops that does not compete with other beings and
>itself for resources, there will be war.
Are we at war with Data General? Are the Red Sox at war with the Yankees?
Competition and war are not the same thing. One might as well say
that because some people will always work for other people there will
always be slavery. Slavery used to be the foundation of economic activity,
and war used to be the basis of international relations. If the one
can be eradicated, then perhaps so can the other.
re: missile defenses for space stations
Missile or laser defenses probably could stop incoming missiles, but
in space you don't need to use explosives to destroy things. Just
lob rocks at the stations at ten miles per second. If the rocks get
blown up, all the better, because now you have a hundred projectiles
to riddle the station where before you only had one. Space stations
are like the modern infantryman; their defense is non-existent
compared to their offense.
BTW, the Navy missile defense is probably spelled Phalanx. It means
a small group of soldiers marching in step and protected by
interlocking shields.
|
353.57 | Let's try this again. | 34837::EATOND | Dan Eaton | Fri Sep 05 1986 12:03 | 49 |
|
re: 353.53
> for every weapon there's a defense, for every defense there is a
> counter-measure...
True, but what are the weapons and defenses? 353.52 was asked in the spirit
that sometimes the journey is more interesting than the destination.
re: 353.54
> Missile or laser defenses probably could stop incoming missiles, but
> in space you don't need to use explosives to destroy things. Just
> lob rocks at the stations at ten miles per second. If the rocks get
> blown up, all the better, because now you have a hundred projectiles
> to riddle the station where before you only had one. Space stations
> are like the modern infantryman; their defense is non-existent
> compared to their offense.
Rocks? What size are your rocks? Recall the debris fields I put in front and
behind the station? A big rock that would plow thru the debris field with
no problem is probably big enough for me to see long before it gets to the
station. That gives me time to either try for an intercept with a missle packed
with conventional explosives and knock the rock off course. Or I could move
the station to the side and watch the rock wizz on by. Probably have to do
both because of lack of time.
Small rocks? Debris field sweeps them away.
Medium size rocks? Hmmm. That might be a problem. However, seems to me, that
when your rock hits my rock what results is not necessarily going to be aimed
at me. Nice try, but I'm not convinced.
I had an idea for protecting the station from energy weapons beamed up from
earth. What would happen if I took water, and froze it into a shield between
the station and the earth. The shield would be built of ice blocks a couple
of feet thick and then wrapped in an insulating layer to keep it from out
gassing like a comet.
Never mind. I found my own ice pick. I don't know how effective at soaking
up energy weapons the shield would be but all someone would have to do would
be to launch a missle (rock) at the shield before firing the death beam. I
wouldn't be able to do anything about the missle because the shield would be
in the way. Hmmm. How about equiping the shield with a radar controlled squirt
gun? What happens to a stream of water in a vacuum. Does it freeze in shadow?
Turn to steam in sun light? Or just disperse? Anybody got an idea?
Dan
|
353.58 | Ice Spray | LEIA::SWONGER | What, me worry? | Fri Sep 05 1986 13:01 | 7 |
|
A stream of water would torn into a symmetrical (hemispherical)
spray of ice crystals. ( I get this from what an actual astronaut
said was the most beautiful sight he's ever seen - a urine dump
at sunset)
Roy
|
353.59 | Bullet rocks | MORIAH::REDFORD | DREADCO staff researcher | Sun Sep 07 1986 13:46 | 21 |
| re: .57
Use little rocks, the size of machine gun bullets. In fact, they could
BE machine gun bullets. Just sit on the opposite side of the earth,
aim very carefully, fire away, and 45 minutes later - Swiss space station.
A debris field that will stop machine gun bullets is equivalent to
putting a shell of sandbags around the entire station, which is a lot
of mass. If you have a lot of stuff floating around from lunar
mining operations, that might work. Would also be good radiation
protection from solar flares. However, anything that has to
accelerate could not afford that kind of massy protection, and so
would still be vulnerable. Solar panels also cannot be protected
this way, because it would block sunlight, and because there's too
much area to protect. The upshot is that the crew could survive
inside their bunker, but their transportation and energy supplies
would be cut off.
That's assuming just conventional weapons. Nothing can be done about
dark, radar-absorbing nukes.
/jlr
|
353.60 | | IOSG::WDAVIES | Peace,Bread,and Land | Thu Sep 25 1986 07:22 | 3 |
| a phalanx is a column of soldiers that march in close formation
with LONG pikes as protection (and as an offensive weapon).
The interlocking shields is the tortoise formation of Roman soldiers.
|
353.61 | Words for thought | CLIPR::KLAES | N = R*fgfpneflfifaL | Thu Jul 27 1989 09:06 | 3 |
| "The ability of man to walk and actually live on other worlds has
virtually assured mankind immortality." - Wernher von Braun
|
353.62 | | RICKS::REDFORD | Disbelief is the best revenge | Fri Jul 28 1989 18:59 | 4 |
| Immortality? But of what sort?
"In a thousand years at our present rate of change we'll be
either machines or gods." - Bruce Sterling
|
353.63 | We have met the enemy... | JVERNE::KLAES | All the Universe, or nothing! | Fri Jun 07 1991 11:54 | 14 |
| "The thought seems to be that while the people on Earth are destroying
themselves, communities in space will be able to survive and carry on.
This thought does an injustice to our habitat, the Earth. It assumes
that if only we could escape the Earth we would find safety - as though
it were the Earth and its plants and animals that threatened us, rather
than the other way around." - Johnathan Schell, THE FATE OF THE EARTH
"This curious world which we inhabit is more wonderful than it is
convenient; more beautiful than it is useful; it is more to be admired
and enjoyed than used." - Henry David Thoreau
"The meek shall inherit the Earth. The rest of us will go to the
stars." - Robert A. Heinlein
|
353.64 | | ATSE::WAJENBERG | | Fri Jun 07 1991 16:40 | 3 |
| Interesting contrast, there, between Thoreau's attitude and Heinlein's.
ESW
|
353.65 | I don't get it! | SOFBAS::TRINWARD | Maker of fine scrap-paper since 1949 | Fri Jun 07 1991 17:39 | 7 |
| RE: .64
What contrast -- seems to me they say the same thing, only Thoreau's view
is that of quiet contemplation in harmony (the Spectator), while Heinlein's
comes from a point of action (the Doer). otherwise, they say the same things.
- Steve, who_can't_decide_which_stance_works_best_for_him (;^})
|
353.66 | | LABRYS::CONNELLY | Can I get there by candlelight? | Sat Jun 08 1991 01:53 | 4 |
|
Heinlein's major influence seems to have been Kipling--not exactly a
Thoreau clone! ;-)
paul
|
353.67 | Typical Heinlein arrogance | TECRUS::REDFORD | Entropy isn't what it used to be | Sun Jun 09 1991 22:50 | 7 |
| I've never liked that Heinlein quote. It exemplifies his
contempt for those who aren't the can-do, rah-rah sorts. Who says
the meek won't go to the stars? California was first colonized
by Franciscan monks, which is about as meek as you get, and
Pennsylvania was settled by Quakers. When we go to the stars, I
hope it will be as Thoreauvians, humble before the wonder of the
world, instead of as Heinleinian conquistadores. /jlr
|
353.68 | Pride goeth before the fall | SUBWAY::MAXSON | Repeal Gravity | Mon Jun 10 1991 05:52 | 11 |
|
... Franciscan monks, which is about as meek as you get...
'meek' means humble, not retiring. The modern Franciscans have
been ministering to the sick in places like New Guinea for five
generations, and that's not exactly Club Med.
I think the difference between the Franciscans and the Thoreauvians
seems to be that the Franciscans can be meek and not seem so
self-satisfied and boastful about it.
|
353.69 | Perhaps a slight misuse of the word? | SOFBAS::TRINWARD | Maker of fine scrap-paper since 1949 | Mon Jun 10 1991 10:59 | 16 |
| IMO, Heinlein merely 'misappropriated' an often ill-used word to make a
point:
Instead of using 'meek' as it relates to Humility (piety, etc.), RAH uses it
to connote indecisiveness and lack of action -- much as Ayn Rand took the
concept of 'selfishness' and then was able (by careful definition of terms)
to present a case in support of it as a positive trait...
He then goes on to affirm the obvious -- that only those with a Drive toward
change (and advancement) will actually "inherit" the Stars (cause it's gonna
take some work!)
His only fault perhaps lies in the willingness to 'turn a phrase'
using an ambiguous term -- it works as a 'quotable' ...
- Steve
|
353.70 | Gerard K. O'Neill, Space Colonist | VERGA::KLAES | All the Universe, or nothing! | Thu Apr 30 1992 14:13 | 50 |
| From: DECPA::"[email protected]" "Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey"
30-APR-1992 03:42:11.52
To: [email protected]
CC:
Subj: Gerard K. O'Neill passes away
Followup-To: sci.space
Gerry O'Neill has passed away. After hearing the sad news from Larry
Boyle of the Chicago Space Studies, I went hunting and found that Bob
Summersgill had already posted an obituary to SEDS-L, which I take the
liberty of quoting here.
O'Neill's ideas had tremendous power to excite people and rekindle
hopes for the future of spaceflight that had grown dim in the
post-Apollo slump. He will be missed-- but his influence on a
generation of space advocates will echo for decades.
O~~* /_) ' / / /_/ ' , , ' ,_ _ \|/
- ~ -~~~~~~~~~/_) / / / / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
/ \ (_) (_) / | \
| | Bill Higgins Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
\ / Bitnet: [email protected]
- - Internet: [email protected]
~ SPAN/Hepnet/Physnet: 43011::HIGGINS
========================================
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1992 16:20:15 EDT
Reply-To: "Interchapter Communications for SEDS" <[email protected]>
Sender: "Interchapter Communications for SEDS" <[email protected]>
From: Bob Summersgill <[email protected]>
Subject: Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill
Dr. Gerard K. O'Neill died yesterday, 4/27/92 in Princeton, NJ. He
was 65 years old. Dr. O'Neill was the founder and President of the
Space Studies Institute, Professor Emeritus of Princeton, founder of
the GeoStar Corp., and O'Neill Communications, Inc. He is the author
of four books including *The High Frontier* and *2081*. He created
and popularized the idea of colonies in free space, designed and built
the Mass Driver, and designed the device that allows particle
accelerators to fire into each other. He was a recipient of the
SEDS's Arthur C. Clarke Award.
His death was the result of a seven year fight with leukemia. A
memorial service will be held at the Princeton Chapel, May 26th at
10:00am.
- Bob Summersgill | Taxes are not raised for the benefit of
XE605C @ GWUVM - Bitnet | the taxed. -- Lazarus Long
|
353.71 | Space Colony Design Contest - due by March 1995 | MTWAIN::KLAES | No Guts, No Galaxy | Fri Sep 23 1994 12:20 | 92 |
| From: US1RMC::"[email protected]" 22-SEP-1994 22:06:19.88
CC:
Subj: Space Colony Design Contest
Have your kids send in stuff to this, and get the local schools involved!
Al Globus
Second Annual NASA Ames Space Colony Design Contest
Students in grades 6-12 are invited to submit orbital space colony
designs to NASA Ames by 15 March 1995. Individuals and teams will
compete for prizes and the opportunity to work with NASA scientists to
add their work on the NASA Ames Internet World Wide Web space colony
designs portfolio. All participants will receive a certificate and a
tour of NASA Ames will be arranged for those living nearby.
Space colonies are permanent communities in orbit, as opposed to liv-
ing on the Moon or other planets. The work of Princeton physicist Dr.
O'Neill and others have shown that such colonies are technically fea-
sible, although expensive. Settlers of this high frontier are expected to
live inside large air-tight rotating structures holding hundreds, thou-
sands, or even millions of people along with the animals, plants, and
single celled organisms vital to comfort and survival. There are many
advantages to living in orbit: environmental independence, plentiful
solar energy, and terrific views to name a few. There is plenty of room
for everyone who wants to go; the materials from a single asteroid can
build space colonies with living space equal to about 500 times the sur-
face area of the Earth.
Why should colonies be in orbit? Mars and our Moon have a surface
gravity far below Earth normal. Children raised in low-g will not
develop bones and muscles strong enough to visit Earth comfortably.
In contrast, orbital colonies can be rotated to provide Earth normal
pseudo-gravity in the main living areas.
We hope teachers will make this contest part of their lesson plan.
While designing a space colony, students will have a chance to study
physics, mathematics, space science, environmental science, and
many other disciplines. We would like students outside the science
classes to participate as well. Thus, contest submissions may include
short stories, models, and artwork. Students can design entire colonies
or focus on one aspect of orbital living. A class or school may submit
a joint project where small teams tackle different areas in a coordi-
nated fashion. For example, consider a cross curriculum project where
science classes design the basic structure and support systems, art stu-
dents create pictures of the interior and exterior, English students write
related short stories, social studies students develop government and
social systems, woodshop builds a scale model, and the football team
proposes low-g sports.
Schools and teachers may consider ongoing multi-year projects, each
year's students add detail to a space colony design that becomes part
of the school or class portfolio. In this case, teachers assign students to
different parts of the design, gradually building a more and more com-
plete and practical space colony concept. Each year the project can be
submitted to the contest.
Submissions should be sent to Al Globus. MS T27A-1, NASA Ames
Research Center, Moffett Field, CA. 94035-1000, email: globus@na-
s.nasa.gov. Be sure to include your name, address, and age. Teachers
using the contest in their class should submit all projects together,
include the name and address of the school, and provide a phone number.
Background information is provided in two forms. To get a Macintosh
Hypercard stack, send a self addressed stamped envelope with a Mac-
intosh floppy disk to Tug Sezen, 800 Sante Fe Court, Oakley, CA
94561, email: [email protected], phone (510) 679-8121. Mr.
Sezen will be happy to share his experience using orbital space colony
design in his ninth grade classroom. For Internet users with Mosaic or
other WWW browser, look at URL: http://www.nas.nasa.gov/RNR/
Visualization/AlGlobus/SpaceColonies/spaceColonies.html.
This contest is sponsored by the NASA Ames Research Center and
John Swett High School, Crockett, CA.
We hope that this contest will provide an exciting educational and cre-
ative opportunity for students and begin training those who will build
the first space colonies: the engineers, scientists, and poets who will
start Life's expansion throughout the solar system.
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% Subject: Space Colony Design Contest
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