Conference noted::sf

I picked it up a few weeks ago and started reading it and just can't get
excited about it.  Since I got it I've finished a couple of other books
(e.g., the new Saberhagen collection of Berserker stories).  I'll try
one more time.

len.

	I'm about 2/3 through it, and I'm begining to wonder if it's going to 
go anywhere? What it looks like at this point, is a looooong lead in for a 
much longer book than the pages account for. If it really ends within the 
current book; then the pace has got to improve by many times.

	More later??

	/s/	Bob

  If you like Asimov, wait for the paperback.  If you don't particularly
  like Asimov, you can skip this.

  Just like Robots of Dawn, it's slow in the beginning.  I get the feeling
  that the story could be told in one half the number of pages, which was
  also how I felt about Robots of Dawn.  I wish he would write about
  something else instead of milking the Robots and Foundation themes, but
  as long as there are suckers like me buying these books, he'll write
  another sequel for sure. 

  Don't get me wrong, I like both Robots and Foundation, but there's
  something about too much of a good thing.  As for this story being the
  linkage between the two series, well, there's a little of that.  It's
  hard to link them strongly because the Galactic Empire will take many
  more years to come about, so that this story can only be a very distant
  prequel. 
  
--Simon 

	Well, I finished it last night, and I saw NO connection between it and 
the Empire stuff. It also never really got going. It just sort of shuffled 
along until it died. I guess I'm a bit disapointed because his books are 
usually much better (even those which some of you have panned).

	/s/	Bob

I picked it up again and am now about 3/4 of the way through it.  It's
terribly slow going - mostly conversations between Daneel and Giskard
as they try to fathom "the n laws of humanics".  The connection to the
Foundation tri/tetra/.../logy is tenuous at best - it consists of one
remark by Daneel that perhaps someday the behaviour of large groups of
people might be better predictable than that of individuals.

I concur - wait for the paperback, you're not missing anything.

len.

Re .0, .4:

_Robots and Empire_ provides several connections between robot novels and
empire novels:

The hints of psychohistory have already been mentioned.  The book also
contains a short example of how a small change can create a large effect
(Gladia's speech on Baleyworld and Giskard's work during that speech).

The robot novels previously had a stagnant civilization, with little
expansion.  Also, any apparent expansion would seem to be by the Spacers.
Yet the empire novels do not seem to be the result of expansion by Spacers,
since long lives and robots are missing.  _Robots and Empire_ shows us how
expansion comes about and explains why long lives and robots are missing
(because it was not the Spacers who colonized the galaxy).

It explains why knowledge of Earth was forgotten.

Giskard's powers provide a link between an earlier short robot story and
the Mule of the Foundation novels.


				-- edp

Does anybody have any ideas about Solaria, the _Mary Celeste_ of planets?

What links from robot novels to empire novels did I miss?


				-- edp 

  Asimov is on the verge of contradicting his empire stories (Pebble in the
  Sky, etc.) on Earth's radioactivity, with his ending in Robots and Empire.
  Those earlier stories were written in the early years of the Atomic Age,
  when "nuclear winter" hasn't been imagined yet.  Thus the setting of those
  stories was on an Earth made radioactive by nuclear war, but still inhabit-
  able in areas of low radioactivity.  Asimov now acknowledges that that
  premise was wrong, but he couldn't change it because it was fundamental
  to those stories.

  The ending in Robots and Empire supplies a different event to account for
  Earth's radioactivity.

  In both Robots and Empire, and Foundation's Edge, Asimov seems fascinated
  by the theory that Earth's moon has something to do with evolution on
  Earth.  I don't know enough science to tell whether his theory (albeit
  in a novel) that Earth's natural radioactivity has something to do with
  evolution, is a crock or not.  Since this is Science Fiction, I treated
  it as fiction.

  I tend to view Robots of Dawn, and Robots and Empire, as the first two
  books of a trilogy, rather than the third and fourth books in the Elijah
  Baley series.  (There's also a short story with Elijah Baley and the robot
  Daneel Olivaw in it, but Asimov could have substituted any other man and
  robot and it wouldn't have made any difference.  There was no continuity
  with his Baley novels.)  I feel that he's leading up to another book
  featuring Daneel.  I also speculate that he'll tie together this series
  with the Foundation series through the world Gaia.

--Simon

This isn't directly involved with the discussion of the new novel
but I'd prefer to put it in a robots topic rather than
start a new topic. 

From American National Standards Institute "Reporter" newsletter,
Volume 20, Number 14, July 4, 1986

Robot Safety Standard is Approved by ANSI

The first American National Standard on safety requirements for 
industrial robots and robot systems was approved by ANSI on June 13, 
1986.

This landmark standard establishes guidelines for the construction, 
installation, care, and use of industrial robots in order to safeguard 
people who work with them.

The Robotic Industries Association sponsored development of the 
standard and processed it for submittal to ANSI.

According to RIA officials, there have been very few robot-related 
accidents in the more than 20 years robots have been at work 
in American factories. However, they state, as the U.S. robot 
population increases from about 20,000 to an expected 75,000 to 
100,000 in the next decade, proper safety procedures will be essential 
to continue the industrial robot's outstanding safety record.

The standard recognizes that an industrial robot may not be a 
stand-alone machine but may interact with other machines and 
equipment and may be controlled by signals from many sources.

ANSI/RIA R15.06 calls for manufacturers to design and construct robots 
to prevent hazardous motion and eliminate possible danger to personnel 
from moving  parts, component malfunction, power loss, electromagnetic 
and radio frequency interference, and other causes. Manufacturers are 
also required to provide controls to protect against inadvertent 
operation of robots and a hardware-based emergency stop circuit that 
will override all other robot controls.

Locating outside the restricted work envelope those controls and 
equipment that require access during automatic operation is one of the 
standard's requirements for installation.

The standard also provides for the use of barriers, guards, and other 
devices to protect personnel from hazards associated with the 
restricted work envelope. These include visual, audible, and physical 
hazard awareness signals and barriers; presence sensing devices; 
perimeter guards; and proximity detectors.

The new standard stipulates that users establish safeguards for each 
operation associated with the robot system and ensure that operators, 
robot teachers, and maintenance and repair personnel are trained in 
safe procedures.

The American National Standard on safety requirements for industrial 
robots and robot systems will be published by ANSI at the end of the 
summer.

    
    Okay, so I know it's been four years since anyone wrote to this note,
    and chances are no-one's going to read it now, but what the heck?
    
    
    While I was reading _Robots and Empire_, the following connection
    occurred to me that hasn't been mentioned yet. Even though I've
    read Foundation and Earth and Prelude to Foundation since then, this
    is not twenty-twenty hindsight; this is what I thought at the time.
    
    Asimov had already made connections between the two series in
    Foundation's Edge; he makes reference to Earth, to Robots and
    to Eternals. It was rumored that robots helped in the settling
    of Gaia, the telepathic planet. (Read the last few chapters of
    Foundation's Edge : it's all there, folks)
    
    In Robots of Dawn (written next) Giskard makes allusions to a science
    which predicts the actions of humans, and calls it (lo and behold)
    psychohistory. Giskard's telepathic ability is also a strong
    hint of things to come, but nothing the reader can put his hand on.
    
    Now we come to Robots and Empire (the title itself suggests the linking
    of the two series). We learn that Solaria has (apparently) been
    deserted by its population, and left behind is evidence of telepathic
    robots, very advanced and very humanoid. Furthermore, Daneel and
    Giskard toss around the idea of the Zeroth Law, by which they recognise
    the importance of humanity as a whole. Psychohistory gets many a
    mention, and Giskard even bandies round the general laws (ie. lots of
    people, who must remin ignorant of details, etc. etc.)
    
    This was the theory I thought up at the time :
    
    	- The solarians had bugged out of Solaria, with their telepathic
    robots, to another planet; this was the logical extension of their need
    to become isolated. This new planet became Gaia. This was reinforced by
    the suggestion in Foundation's Edge that Bliss was a (long-lived?)
    robot, so advanced that she was indistinguishable from a human. This
    is also consistent with the mention of Gaia being developed with the
    help of robots.
    
    	- The Settlers eventually form the First Galactic Empire. This was
    obvious from the robots' conversations, the absence of robots from
    the Settler worlds and the Empire/Foundation stories, and the
    normal-span lives of Empire and Foundation citizens.
    
    	- Daneel sets in motion the research/facilities/activities which
    lead, eventually, to psycho-history. He has nothing to do with Gaia.
    This seems a logical deduction from his interest in the matter in
    Robots and Empire.
    
    	- The mysterious party who hides all info about Earth in
    Foundation's Edge was a mystery to me. During the reading of Foundation
    and Earth, before I reached the end, it occurred to be that it could be
    a group continuing the work started by Daneel (long deactivated). While
    this was closish to the truth, I had no real evidence for the thought,
    and regarded it no more likely than the existence of an as-yet
    unintroduced group/person.
    
    So the connections are definitely there; while not solid enough to confirm
    any theories without doubt, they are solid enough to form the basis of
    many a theory.
    
    Of course, Foundation and Earth blew my theories out of the water. In
    some ways, though, I thought my theories held together a bit better
    than what Asimov decided on (given the evidence up til then). Still,
    he's the guy in charge. I wonder whether he didn't intend the Solarians
    to become Gaia, though; he may have changed his mind just to be
    unpredictable. It seems strange that :
    
    	- Daneel would live so long (I thought it was a bit much, actually)
    
    	- Daneel would set up BOTH Gaia AND the Foundations. He says in FaE
    and in PtF that he did it "just in case one failed". But if both
    succeeded (which they did), then they would inevitably come into
    conflict, and might BOTH have been destroyed! Doesn't sound like the
    ol' first/zeroth law-driven Daneel I've gotten to know!
    
    	- Solaria did not change, was not invaded etc. etc. for 20000
    years. (Okay, that was explained, but to evolve into Gaia would be more
    believable)
    
    Don't get me wrong; I thought the way the stories developed was great;
    I couldn't put down Foundation and Earth, and loved the visits to the
    long-dead Spacer worlds. It was nice to be surprised; I would have been
    cheesed off if the story was predictable. But, like I said, I wonder if
    Asmiov changed his mind, not to make a better story, but just for the
    sake of being unpredicable.
    
    Time to get down off me soapbox.
    
    Peter.
    

        At the end of _Robots and Earth_, Giskard tells Daneel to try
        to find out why Solaria was (apparently) abandoned.  I've read
        all these novels, but it's not clear to me whether Asimov
        explained it (or whether I just didn't get it).  Did the
        Solarians leave and, if so, where'd they go?  If not, did they
        simply turn into the creatures that Golan finds in _Foundation
        and Earth_?
        
        Jim Stratton
        

    
    	You were right the second time, and I can understand your
    confusion, especially if you read the books in rapid sequence. In
    _Robots and Empire_, everyone was talking about the "abandoning" of
    Solaria. The question was "Where have they gone?" rather than "Have
    they, in fact, gone?". What actually happened, according to Asimov, was
    this :
    
    	- The Solarians, unobserved by the rest of the Spacer worlds,
    decide that they would make their isolation complete, and move
    underground. They use their large estates and their robots to isolate
    themselves from each other and from off-worlders, respectively. They
    want to be left alone so much, in fact, that they reprogram their
    robots to mistake any non-Solarian as non-human, and leave them as
    watchdogs on the surface of the planet.
    
    	- Gladia and Co. arrive, in response to reports of an "abandoned
    Solaria". There they meet robots which try to kill them, and flee.
    Since they could only detect Robotic presence on the planet, they
    assume that the planet is abandoned. D.G. would have also recommended
    to the Settler worlds that the planet be left alone, since it is highly
    dangerous. (The humans were not detected because they were shielded by
    the planet itself). So, we can assume that Solaria was left alone for
    the next few millenia
    
    	- Solaria continues to research genetic mutation (extrapolating
    from what they already know - longevity, etc) and telepathy, initially
    in robots, and then in themselves. Remember that Falstolf's daughter
    saw evidence of robotic telepathy on Solaria a few years before they
    became isolated. As the millenia go by, the Solarians strive to become
    more and more independent and isolationist, using the results of their
    research to become telekinetic, telepathic and hermaphroditic.
    
    	- Meanwhile the Settler worlds expand to Empire, generally ignoring
    all the Spacer worlds. Solaria is assumed to be abandoned but
    dangerous, and so is ignored by Settler and Spacer alike. As the Spacer
    worlds die, Solaria's isolation keeps it alive (but largely unchanged
    in social structure). Solarians keep tabs on the rest of the Galaxy,
    but only as an idle interest - they have no desire to influence or be
    influenced by the rest of humanity. Thus, although they have the power
    to overrun the Galaxy (as Gaia could and the Mule almost did), they
    remain hidden from all.
    
    	- The Empire rises and falls, the Foundation(s) are formed, and
    Gaia develops into a planet-wide organism.
    
    	- Trevize and Co arrive on Solaria, and we see what it has become.
    We are surprised to learn that all evidence indicating the planet's
    abandonment millenia ago was false, and the truth is gradually revealed
    to us. The Solarians evolved into the beings encountered by Trevize.
    
    	So there you have it. Almost sounds feasible when you fill in the
    gaps. I still think Asimov had no intention of having the Solarians
    actually remin on Solaria when he was writing _Robots and Empire_.
    Nobody questioned the fact that the Solarians had left.
    
    			Enough of my blathering. Hope I've been helpful.
    
    							Peter.